EATING BEFORE DAVENING – WHAT IS INCLUDED IN THE ISSUR & WHY - Shiur by Rabbi Nachum Scheiner

Together with Kallah Yeshurun, the Kallah Bocher is also involved in learning now Maseches Brachos. It was a special honor this week as the Kallah Bocher, we learn a blatt a week, and this week's blatt in the Kallah Bocher, daf yud, came along together Monday. We're doing daf yomi with daf yud. Today's topic is discussing on daf yud the issur achilah, the issur to eat before davening. The Gemara says daf yomi at base, V'omer Rabi Yishmael Chanina mishum Rabi Akiva d'lo yisochal adam, the passuk says l'yisochal adam, l'yisochlu kodshim ad ha'spalah dimchem. A person should not eat before the mispalah dimchem on their blood, which means on their life. See, the Gemara says it's a drasha, then the Gemara brings another drasha, not so much a drasha, more together like a dvar mussar, a drush. The Gemara says kol ochel sh'eisa v'achar kach mispallel from a passuk, it's b'geder ga'avah. So, the Gemara has two, so to speak, drashos, one a issur achilah, and then the Gemara brings right to that is a issur achilah v'ishtiyah because it's ga'avah. I'm also going to see also the cheilek between the two drashos, but let's first focus on the first drasha. The Gemara says from the passuk of l'yisochal adam, there's a issur achilah before davening. Is there a issur achilah, is this issur or issur mid'oraisa, or is it issur mid'rabbanan? The Gemara brings a passuk, a drasha. Now, this drasha, this passuk l'yisochal adam, is really it's a Gemara in Sanhedrin that has many drashos. The Gemara you makes drashos, is there even many drashos are learned from this. Is there also, is this also a drasha to say that it's a de oraisa to eat before davening? Makes it even a lot more homered that if it's only de oraisa The is more than this and he brings this love so the love which he starts off the love which he is the love from here the the love and the the brings we need ask him what which the also says the it's a love he's a not like it meaning to say is if one love includes many is him you're not like it's only if the love comes specifically for one is sir so the list out the and there many love them that are learned this is the Sanhedrin and the olive she she can't eat to eat from an animal before it's the shita and so on a couple of them another brings we should all done another love that's learned out from this is that you shouldn't eat them you shouldn't eat before davening says the which would seem from the clearly that this is the oraisa it's a love to eat before davening the the tell me bring that the is only the oraisa the oraisa learned from this is all the Sanhedrin those those I'm sorry but the issue of eating before diving is only is oraisa of the cross market the bottom when the Gamora says by us like so Adam Let's it's a small that is the Israel but not the right so So we have a machine if this is the right so to eat before diving with the machine this first Russian the Gamora is is a dress from the right so it's only a small that The ask the Sheila The top to say that this is Israel the right so what's the Israel the Israel is before diving If diving is right so so then I can understand that this is Israel the right so to eat before diving but if the whole diving is only the bottom how is it shy to say this is Israel the right so to eat before when before diving that's the bottom So how can you say that this is the right so if diving is only the bottom So right diving is the right so So the which goes a lot with the sheet of the bottom the sheet of the bottom is that it's the right so it's very good the bottom holds that diving is the right so they could be of diving Israel before However the says Then you could be you know what the bottom the comes to diving We'll get we'll get to that shortly she very good about doing a little bit of speaks about we'll try to hopefully it's more towards the end that's in the product denim No this is the right so to eat if the diving is the right so However says the if you take a look at the bottom the bottom holds that diving is the right so but when it comes to when it comes to saying the Israel over there the bottom doesn't seem to hold that it's the right so so maybe he's bothered If the bottom holds that Yeah in other words you have to hold that it's the right diving is the right so to say that it's Israel is the right so So he replies with a kasha that how could you say this is deraisa to eat if there's no chiyuv deraisa to daven? However, if you take a look in the Rambam in minyan hamitzvos in sefer hamitzvos, the Rambam in the beginning in the shorashim when he's magid the different klalim in mitzvos asei mitzvos lo sasei, shoresh tes, which he goes into lav shebichlalos as we mentioned before, this this lav for an example has many dinim learned out of the lav. So when the Rambam speaks about the lav shebichlalos in shoresh tes, the Rambam says minayin shelo yeichal adam klum ad sheyispalel. And then he brings our gemara, which would pretty much seem that the Rambam is learning that the issur achila is deraisa. So if the issur achila is deraisa, which the chiyuv also learns like that, so then we can understand that the issur achila is deraisa as davening is deraisa, so the Torah says before you have to daven with deraisa, you have to eat, you can't eat before davening. Why can't you say he's he's saying it's derabanan? Who, the Rambam? Yeah. The Rambam in sefer hamitzvos when he's speaking about lav shebichlalos, it would be very interesting that stam the Rambam is bringing up this issur derabanan over there. I mean, that's the Rambam in in in Yad Hachazaka, when the Rambam says all the pratei dinim he brings is all derabanan. And there he's being moyin in the mitzvos. And even more when he's going in lav shebichlalos, he says what's the lav shebichlalos? He's listing all the issurim in that lav. Now before going into the details of eating before davening, but they're also going into the details, I would like to share with the oilam something more klalius about the issur achila. The Mishnah in Sukkah daf lamed ches, the Mishna says that you're not allowed to eat before a mitzvah. Mishna says if somebody's going and if you have to even be mafsik from eating, there's a Isro Achila before any mitzvah. Important thing to know, before any mitzvah there's a Isro Achila. The Shulchan Aruch brings a tackle agav Hilchos Lulav which that the Mishna is going it's based off that Mishna. Oser lechol kodem she yitlanu. A person nothing to do with Isro with davening. You davened already, you didn't take tallis u'tefillin. You have to do the mitzvah of tallis u'tefillin. You can't eat. Shofar for an example, not going into Malkus that we make or to make Kiddush, but before a mitzvah iker the din you're not supposed to eat. Oser lechol kodem she yitlanu. You're not allowed You're not allowed to eat before you take tallis u'tefillin. So the shaila is what's this whole this din over here, this din in the Gemara that we're learning now here that there's a Isro Achila before davening? Typically mitzvah the Isro before any mitzvah. If it's a din de'oraisa then we can understand there's a particular din here mide'oraisa. But if there's a general din of you're not allowed to eat before any mitzvah, so the zichron mitzvah de'rabbanan to daven, so why do you have to comment on this whole din of the Isro Achila before davening? Typically the klalius din it din that there's a Isro to eat before any mitzvah, before any mitzvah that you do. So the Heshiv Moshe, which is the Yismach Moshe, answers in Orach Chaim siman hey, and he says the following. This is important yesod for us to know what we're learning now in the Isro Achila before davening. The Isro Achila before a mitzvah the Isro Achila de'she'eirus, the Isro Achila before a mitzvah is only Achila gemura, a full eating legamri. That is a Israchila. However, Teima's muter. The Mishnah Brurah actually spells it out clearly, ossur lecho with Teima meal, Medina Shari, which means before a shofar, before lulav, Teima which we'll see Teima means it's brought Lagambri eating before Mussaf with Kiddush, but Teima means less than a Kabera period of Chadaima. Teima's muter. So, when it comes to eating before a mitzvah, you're only allowed to eat a full Seudah. Teima's muter. When it comes to eating before davening, even a snack, even a light something is also ossur. Teima's also ossur. Now, just to put it out there right away for those that are those that do eat, I'm not going to go into it because each case has to be evaluated separately, but I want to put it out there right away. The Shulchan Aruch already brings, even though there's an issur, just right away to know that the Shulchan Aruch says, "Hotzame v'harav." The halacha is that if somebody's a choleh, he's allowed to eat before davening. That's a clear halacha. You're allowed to eat before davening. It's only near mar this issur where if it's al tz'kiva d'imchem, it's muter. And the Shulchan Aruch says, "Hotzame." Somebody is very thirsty, we're going to get into soon about the drinking also. V'harav, hare'im b'chlala choylim. They're considered a choleh. If they can be machaven, then they shouldn't eat, but if they cannot be machaven, um lav. In other words, there's a heter to eat before davening. So, this is everyone should find it out separately what's together if they can be machaven, but that's the din in general, there's an issur. A choleh, someone that can't be machaven, in certain cases it's muter. B'etzem, when we learn, so just back to what we just mentioned that the issue to eat before davening is the issue even to eat more. Not only to eat but even to eat more. The law should not be more than so that this issue not to eat more. The law should not be more than we mentioned before the law should not be more than says even to eat more. Even a snack or yogurt less than a cup of yogurt is also also. The asks where is this where is the to say that this is the issue even to eat more. This line if you say that it's the issue the rabbinical to eat before davening so you could say what the we don't have to do they even to eat more. But if you learn it's the issue I say the Torah says the Torah doesn't say to eat more the Torah says the issue. He asked the he doesn't answer the meaning to say if the issue is the issue so let's take a look the issue to eat more is not to just follow to eat more is not the issue so to eat more should be more than. It's also important to note that this issue to eat more is more. Or issue to eat more. It's partial but it's the tell me speak it out this issue is only issue to eat more is more. Only before when it comes before more. There is the issue to be more than more than more than separate than but to eat more is more than. So this issue that we're saying is only issue to eat more whether if you learn that it's the issue after the more than more than davening on your life so once you davening you did it already. And the same thing is also if you learn that it's if once you already more than you said you more than so you're done for the day even that it's not of course you have more than more than but once you the morning. Later on more than more than. that's not applicable what we're learning over here. There's another din not to eat shamma yom asher, that's a seudah. Now, let's go to the second drasha. The first drasha, let's say Adam, there's an issur achila to eat. And as we saw, the pashtus, it's an issur not only to eat, but an issur to ima as well. A snack, a light bite is also assur. The next drasha in the Gemara, the Gemara brings another drasha, and the Gemara says that kol ochel v'shoseh, anybody that eats or anybody that drinks, it's gaiva. You have to first accept upon yourself the yoke of heaven, if not, it's gaiva. So, the issue the Gemara says that there's not only an issur achila, now we see there's even an issur shtiya. Not allowed to drink before davening. So, when we're talking about drinking before davening, how what what's included in drinking? Anything is assur, even water? What are you allowed, what are you not allowed? So, the Shulchan Aruch brings in the name of the brings from the Rishonim, the Ravya, which is brought here in Shulchan Aruch, Siman Gimel, that water is muttar. So, there's an issur lechol v'lelishtos, however, aval mayim muttar, let's just call it that, so you are allowed to drink water. Why are you allowed to drink water? Because the issur to drink is because of gaiva. Drinking water is not gaiva, so mayim is muttar. According to the Rishonim lahalacha, what goes into the category of drinking which we say that drinking water is muttar? What drink every What's water? Just water? Other drinks? What's muttar, what's assur? So, to drink, let's say, uh, a scotch, a whiskey, a schnapps, that's for sure assur. That clearly is spoken at clearly, that goes into the category of gaiva. So, for sure that's assur. And is is should the Gemara says it's ossur to drink before davening? So, one thing is clear to drink a davar hamishtakeh, that's for sure guyva and it's ossur. We're talking about in the morning before shacharis. However, what's about other drinks? For an example, to drink a coffee, to drink a tea. Technically, it's water. But you have mixed in some flavor, some tea, some coffee. So, really, the Mishna Berurah brings that really it's not considered water. Coffee is not water, even though it's water with some flavor inside. However, the Mishna Berurah says since you cannot be mechaven to daven without a coffee, a lot of us know that when it comes to a morning of a tightness, it's very hard, you know, get up without that morning coffee. It's hard to be mechaven. Since it's hard to be mechaven, so mamila, since it's hard to be mechaven, you can't you you it's muttar. You want it a coffee is muttar begeder like what we saw for people that it's hard for them to be mechaven daven maybe they even allowed to eat. So, this they're allowed to you're allowed to drink a coffee. Ah ah ah, so the Mishna Berurah. However, this is only muttar without sugar. Cuz sugar already is begeder it goes into the geder of the issur cuz of guyva. And also chalav, milk, without milk. So, like she said, a black coffee. No sugar, no milk. However, he says that if you want to be makeel regarding the sugar, he says you could put the sugar in your mouth, not in the cup, not mixing in the drink, and mamila it's muttar. What's the svara? I didn't see clearly what the svara is. It's not so common anymore, but it used to be talk of shuls had Some people still have, but they have those sugar cubes. The sugar cubes is that you put it into your mouth as opposed to putting it into the drink, that's a mission where it says that's not guy of a not exactly clear what makes it less of a guy of a when it's in your mouth as in the as in the coffee itself, but a couple of them that's what he says that it's more so that you don't put it in the drink. However, the Arusha Khan the Arusha Khan says that you're allowed to put the sugar even inside the drink even inside the tea even inside the coffee. And he says because it's not a guy of a it's not like a a sweet drink. It's just to put time just to put a flavor into the drink so maybe it's more there. So sugar he says you can even put even inside the drink. However, when it comes to milk he himself is not happy about putting in milk. He says cuz milk is really something that makes you full. So it's really like eating like drinking it's must be a he doesn't really like it, but he says I don't know if it's made after even on milk. And he says coffee even though it's must be it's also more there. So the Arusha Khan really says everything's more there. What I'm saying really is because the milk he himself is not so happy, but he says you can put sugar and it's made for milk also. So maybe that's let's get it very clear this is this is to eat more this is to steal water is for sure not included. And where we know after that coffee sugar milk tea of course is all more there it's included and when we say mine is more there those are also more there. What's what's a mine though? So it Who the mine against water? They show them say that it's brought the lotion of and this sieve that speaks about the says the water is more there. I could be meant I mean if you said mine usually that would just be mine otherwise would have said I hear you sure you're asking that mine would seem that why stretch it, but it could be the doesn't have to list every single thing it means mine something that's plain as opposed to other drinks. Though, the Mishnah Berurah that's matter coffee is not because it's mayim. He says the reason why it's matter cuz a person can't be machaven. So, that's not really the heter of mayim. That's the heter later of seif dalet when you can't be machaven. Some could even eat. Some Some give the heter of coffee and tea as cuz it's like mayim if you don't put sugar and milk. I think the Ben Ish Chai says it's just like water. Interesting. I would like to see it inside. This day you're saying that coffee, the heter is cuz it's like water. I hear. There is such a concept also There's a big shailah why coffee is not bishul akum. You buy coffee in Starbucks. I'm not going to get the other kashrus issues, but on bishul akum, and there's many terutzim, but one of the terutzim is that it's really just water. It's zeh ub'alma that's in the water. And therefore, water, there's no problem of bishul akum because you could drink it without it being cooked. But interesting, I would like to talk to see that inside. The We don't make up You can't make up bracha on coffee and tea. That's one of the reasons they say cuz it's like water. Okay, this is already we can't fly all over the place. I have dealt with that as well if it's chamar medina. It's way beyond the scope, but interesting, yet. L'maaseh, now that we know that there is an issur achilah, there is an issur te'imah, and issur shtiyah from the second day in the Gemara, there's even issur shtiyah. We asked earlier, where does this issur te'imah come from? If it's issur d'oraita, okay, so it's broad. But if it's issur d'rabbanan, so make a taste of the stretch it for te'imah as well. L'maaseh, now that we see the second Gemara that says kol ochel v'shoseh, says the Beit the Beit Meir, that since shtiyah is b'geder arai, no matter what, you drink it Usually, shtiyah, you just take a drink. Since shtiyah, the Gemara says shtiyah, so we could assume that kol ochel also means b'ofen arai, which means even te'imah. So, he if the first Kamara saying that it's a issue there I saw and the issue there I saw is only a human make taste to eat them. The wish I knew understood to eat them from the second Kamara that says color the show sir. Show sir is I write some mail a human also I write would be awesome diner to eat them. So what comes out of you this? That eating or drinking before diving is more calmer than eating and drinking before a mix up. Before mix up we saw that to eat them is matter. Says the show kind of to eat them is matter. Still for sure it's matter but at least drinking a coffee. If you drink a coffee before diving then you can for sure drink a coffee before let's say you taking down meaning. You get up you get up young to be in the morning. You drink a coffee before every single diving. So then you for sure can drink a coffee then even though you before you leave even though you before show you for. Cuz before mix up is more calmer as we explained before mix up it's matter to eat them to issue a human. So then for sure I will show you spells it out clearly in tough racial base by before you leave that for sure you can drink. However it is good I had to note that are those that are my camera. I don't know the reason but the fact is that there are those that are my camera which means even though they will drink before diving a coffee or tea. When it comes to be before you leave they would not drink which means they would first take the rule of those that are not able to take before diving to take the rule of. And then afterwards they'll also take the coffee but they'll take it after the rule of. The more coffee that is brought in that's tired of my charm. He brings the stay camera. The coffee kind of also brings like that which is a hidush, cuz really before a mitzvah, as we see, is more cow. Teima is mutar as opposed to before davening, teima is assur. But by before davening, they'll make it cuz they need to have kavana for the mitzvah. Uh-huh. You don't need You don't need to be mechaven for the mitzvah, you're saying it's a I hear. I hear. You're saying why As we mentioned that the whole het is only cuz you need yeshiva das. Not that you don't need yeshiva das for the mitzvah, but it's davening to be mechaven every word. I hear. But it's interesting that there are those that attack a machma by a mitzvah not to not to even drink before. So the feel this what comes out, you daven shacharis uh during the week, it's not even a shailah. Daven shacharis, you can eat, you can drink. Let's take a little bit of a look now. You daven shacharis Shabbos morning. And after shacharis now Now there's no issur here before davening. So al mai what? Now there's a new You have a mitzvah, you have to make kiddush. So it's very interesting. Any mitzvah before a mitzvah, you're allowed to eat. So why before kiddush you're not allowed to eat? Typically, it's like a regular mitzvah, you should be able to drink water. Even water, the Shulchan Aruch says that it's assur. Reshaim Alef Siman Daled, Friday night, let's say, for an example. Forget about Shabbos morning after da shacharis. There's a issur once you it's Shabbos already, there's a chiyuv of kiddush, you're not allowed to even drink water. So what's what's going on over here? Why is there a issur to drink even water before any mitzvah, even before davening you're allowed to drink water? So why is there a issur? So the Gemara says it's Gemara Pesachim kuf ayin alef that the Gemara says you see what gabei maaser arai is mutar, but Shabbos is chiyuv as lemaaser, makes it a garua. So lemeila, who had an earlier Shabbos is kaveya that even aray becomes kavua. So parshas the isser for all this aray drinking and even eating aray before kiddush is this concept that Shabbos is kaveya makes it a kavua from an aray, so maybe it would be assur. So let's make a cheshbon over here like this. You daven Shabbos morning after shachris already, you're not allowed to even drink. Why? Because there's a chiyuv of Shabbos kiddush. However, before davening you're allowed to drink. Why you allowed to drink? The Shulchan Aruch speaks it out from the Rosh. The reason why it's muttar to drink before davening Shabbos morning I is a chiyuv of kiddush. The teretz is there is no chiyuv of kiddush yet cuz you cannot make kiddush cuz you cannot eat. So this is just important to note. And Shabbos morning after shachris you can no longer drink. Why can't you drink anymore even water? Because you have a chiyuv of Shabbos kiddush. Before davening Shabbos morning you could drink water coffee because there's no chiyuv of kiddush. Why is there no chiyuv of kiddush? There's no chiyuv of kiddush because you can't eat. But what comes out very interesting is the following. The Biur Halacha says that if somebody does eat before davening, as we saw in seif dalet of seif dalet is, yeah, if somebody's siman peh tes seif dalet, if somebody's needs to eat davening is allowed to eat. So the Biur Halacha says that if somebody needs to eat before davening and he's eating Shabbos morning before davening, he should make kiddush. I don't know if everybody's noig like that, but I want to bring out the concept. So it says before davening since you can't eat there's no chiyuv of kiddush, but if you could eat, there's no issur achila for this particular person, then you have to make kiddush as well. But I just want to ask the Oivim, would it come out this person that's eating before davening which has to make kiddush maybe he's not allowed to even drink water before means his kid once he's already has a kiddush just like for all of us after shacharit shabbat when he can't drink anymore why can't he drink anymore cuz he's a kiddush so for this person that he could eat so he has a kiddush already before davening once he has a kiddush could be can't even drink water before kiddush before kiddush but I didn't get to hear why can't I have water before kiddush Friday night let's say it's shabbat it's it's a cover makes it all right like cover but water you can't be cover anything on water well just like we mentioned earlier that we learned that there's a to even eat something but doing it to drinking to eat so you're right it's a little bit of a and if you want you can argue with me share and say different but but by my by my technically the but it would be but I I'm sorry I'll start all right becoming a I'm sorry I'll start all right technically before any matter the carrots is that shabbat is just like matter when it's all right so and the carrots of shabbat makes it even if you take a snack on shabbat it's considered that you're being so for this also you're being and it's all right you're going to eat Friday night you have to make it before davening you have to make kiddush the same that I would say for shabbat day absolutely love the asking very well and the answer is of course do you have to make kiddush if you eat Friday night before davening an example one of two either it's already and it's shabbat and you want to eat now before my roof yes you have to make kiddush and there are those that even annoyed like that we gave a whole series of and making early shabbat so those that don't want to my early for whatever reason, so they eat the seudah first, and then mekabel Shabbos, and they make kiddush exactly so. Yes, it's nothing to do with before Maariv. Once Shabbos comes, either you mekabel Shabbos or it's shkiah, it's bein hashmahs, it's it's sefeka chamas Shabbos, so then there's an issur achilah and it's as shkiah as well, and you can make kiddush 100%. It's just interesting to note very bekitzur two or three more points. First of all, there are those that are noheg to drink a coffee after Shacharis. I'm not going in on a regular Shabbos morning, that I wasn't aware yet for those that are noheg and meaning it's known in Ger to have afsakah, they drink coffee, but there's a minhag Rosh Hashanah in the morning to drink coffee after Shacharis before tkios. The minhag like that is in Belz and other places as well. So, l'chora, based on what we explained, to drink a coffee before davening is okay, but after Shacharis, how can he drink the coffee? There's an issur shkiah cuz there's a chovas kiddush. So, the Divrei Yechezkel has a hasbara to explain in particular for Rosh Hashanah why you could drink before davening, I'm sorry, why you could drink after Shacharis, I didn't have chovas kiddush. So, he says, I'll say very bekitzur, but based on the Gemara Rosh Hashanah, there's a shaila whether the tkios go with Shacharis, go with Mussaf. The punchline is is that the davening of Shacharis was not finished yet. He still Malchus, Zichronos, Shofros was moved. What was moved? The punchline is that Shacharis was not da- it was not finished. And since he didn't finish Shacharis, he's not chovas kiddush, so immediately you could drink a coffee Rosh Hashanah in the morning even after Shacharis. I just one more pointer and I'll take it afterwards. The We mentioned in the beginning that these two drashos, one drasha is the issur achilah l'chatchilah dimchah, you have to before you daven, and then there's another drasha that is a issur to eat and to drink before it shouldn't be gaiva. What's the difference of the two drashas? Besides we saw the clear difference is the first drasha is to daven you have to daven. And the second drasha davening shacharit and the second drasha of gaiva is means you have to clear shma. So therefore the biur halacha speaks out even if a person said krias shma you still can't eat or drink cuz you need the other part. You need the part of davening of shacharit. So the mailer since these two drashas you can't by saying krias shma it's not enough. However, the poskim the kav david brings that and it's known for those that eat before davening for what they have their hetter there is those that say brachos and other tefilos and bakashos. The kav david says gavi to make long coffee says even if you don't want to use that kullah that much you can rely if you say krias shma and you say some brachos so you accomplish both. You accomplish the gaiva cuz you said shma before davening. You accomplish the dim chem cuz you daven. So he says coffee someone use it even extend it but al panim you need to have both both accomplish both the gaiva and as well as also the small dim chem to be able to pass through this issur of achila before davening. Have a wonderful day.