Do I Do What I Want? - Rabbi Dr. David Gottlieb

you okay well my area of training is in Jewish philosophy philosophical ideas was thoughtful thought and of course that covers a great deal of ground now see if I can do something useful for you in one hour 45 minutes so I'm going to be self-contained you're probably aware that free will is a big deal absolutely and Free Will has lots of challenges from phosphate from science and also from Jewish beliefs there can be the appearance that free will is contradicted by other Jewish commitments to cover the operative the top of the free will completely successfully will take six months but let me pick out a couple of potential conflicts within the Torah and show you how to handle those just as examples of how problems can be in we start with a couple of fairly easy ones and then I'll move to one which is the less easy and which will require some consideration people think of free will as something like I make my own decisions and I run my own life I'm the captain of my ship the master of my fate and then they confront the fact that the Torah has in it Commandments and if you get into it you'll see their Commandments for almost every life situation every life circumstance and it's the message of the tradition that we are to follow those Commandments so that being the case what scope is left for free will I'm not really making my own decisions are just taking orders now the answer will force us to be a little careful about what we mean when we say free will let me take a beginning parallel although will refine this let's take a soldier in the army so their armies given orders and it is the policy of the army is supposed to follow orders does he have free will so yes why because they have the option to grant awards that's right he always has the options this is a bay he has to make a decision to follow what he's ordered to do now maybe it's assumed that it's the policy the army and almost always he does that doesn't mean it doesn't have pretty well free will means the power decide on your own power the order that the army gives doesn't force you doesn't push you down the stairs doesn't put you in a straitjacket it's in order if you just would be disobey the order you can be court-martialed the several disabilities but you still have the free will to decide to follow the order or not so we should ask the same question about divine orders God issues commands and it's the the tradition takes it that we are to follow the commands we ought to follow the commands we should follow the commands does all of that mean I don't have free will I don't know because the person can decide not to follow the command yes as a consequence may be doing something wrong but as is famous we do have the free will to decide to do things that are wrong people have that for you on every one of us is exercise that exercise that free world on occasion so the fact that there are Commandments and the fact that the commitments define what we should do doesn't mean that we don't have free will it's crucial to define free will as the power act on our own the mere fact that got issues a command doesn't take away my power to act on my own I some want to follow up with a with a related worry what about reward and punishment doesn't God promised reward for obedience and threatened punishment for this avidians yes he does well wouldn't promised reward a threat of punishment take away our free will suppose you believe it you believe it without any question that God is going to deliver and his promise on his threat would that take away free will not at all people can decide to do something even if it's to their own disadvantage even if they're shooting themselves in the foot people shoot themselves the Foot to regularly people don't go to the doctor they don't go to the dentist they don't eat the right things and treat the right things they inhale the wrong things and inject their own things I mean there's a variety of failures that people are subject to a fact that they are hurting themselves doesn't stop them so the fact that God promises reward and threatens punishment does not take away a person's free will it might modify his choice by modifying the outcome that's true they says to be do X or I'll kill you and he has a gun and he's credible that may modify the choice person may say I wasn't inclined to do X I may even have scruples against doing X but whatever is wrong with X is not so bad that I should give up my life he says burn up this book so I'm not a book burner and I don't believe in book burning books I'd also don't believe I could give up my life to save a book I also don't believe that so because you threatened me with death I will burn the book but that's a choice persons making evaluation saying it's my life or the book well I have a right to prefer my life over the books I'm choosing to prepare my life over the book that's still a free choice South promising reward and threatening punishment does not take away free will are we good okay now some people are concerned with the concept of fate or predestination the key syllable in predestination is pre means it was destined from before maybe for the very creation of the world that these in these things will happen well from our point of view a lot of that doesn't matter maybe it was predestined that we sunrise and sunset two and a half million times maybe or maybe who is predestined that the winter 2016 will be especially severe or maybe it was predestined that I will be healthy or unhealthy smart or stupid well educated or poorly educated high self control a low self-control maybe even my character I strengths the weaknesses are predestined all that would not affect our commitment of free will and we just set up the conditions under which I make my choices and of course conditions of choices very they like and darkness with money without money age health are conditions of the whip to make sure is ovarian over and over again that doesn't take away my 30 just it's a different setting for free world someone who has billion dollars in the bank has options that I don't have his free will applies to options aren't role does look like those actions I have a PhD in philosophy I have options thinking and investigating in and discovering that people who are chemists or who are investment counselors don't have so of course the settings in which we make our decisions are very change none of that threatens my free will predestination would only threat my free will if my choice was predestined it was predestined that I would choose something a particular time then that would contradict might be the source of my choice so when we talk about predestination or faith and we worry about it in the context of free will what we really need to ask is are the Jewish sources that say a human choice is predestined then we're going to have to worry that maybe if so the free will the person is supposed to happen that choice is not it's non-existent or we go so far now here's the key thing i want to tell you there are sources that sound like choices are predestined is sound that way was not true and only if you look at other sources of the context can you see that it's not for example one famous Jewish Torah says at 40 days before the child is formed in the womb heavenly voice proclaims so and so will marry salt now i remember when i was looking to get married and there were various possibilities that were suggested and sometimes I said no sometimes the other side foolishly said though and then finally I met my wife and God willing about six weeks we'll celebrate our 30th wedding anniversary thank you so I said yes and she said yes it did feel like we were each making our own decisions and then we each made a decision in this case say yes that's what it felt like am I supposed to take that statement at 40 days before your formed in the womb heavenly voice proclaims who's going to marry you and say well it's just not true it's just I true that you're making your own choice just an illusion really you're not making no choice because that many boys already proclaimed it no one should not draw the conclusion and there are two ways out the subtle way out is this I make my own choices I make them on the basis of my experience and my priorities my values I projections for the future that's how I make my choices God could manipulate my options in such a way that he guarantees that i will make the free choice that he wants let me give you a flippant example would hope you'll remember and we can apply here George is going to ice cream store I happen to know George's preference is an ice cream our village Auckland strawberry network and I know when he goes to ask you story by five eyes vanilla I wanted to buy chocolate I have two options number one I have a gun so I can follow George when he gets there's a George chocolate George vanilla chocolate and seeing me waving the gun sorry wanted the vanilla but don't want to die for vanilla advice Chuck there's another way though I can race to the store before George gets there and buy out all the vanilla George walks in he says give me my quarter of vanilla guys is I don't know some that just walked in here and what 167 quarts of vanilla or no vanilla left but we have chocolate and strawberry which would you prefer and George says I really want to develop but given that you have chocolate a strawberry I guess I'll take chocolate is that a free decision sure you two options that he chose the one that he wanted so God could say I want him to marry her and engineer that I only meet clearly inferior choices until I beat her and I get to a certain ages and time with a decision I say okay and that's that's going to marry still my choice my rejection of the other ones was my choice my choice over was my choice he could do it that way but there's another factor and that is at that statement in the tombow that the heavenly voice proclaims does not mean that it's absolutely now I'm telling you something that you need to know and you need to pay attention to and keep in your hip pocket when you need it all the general statements in the Talmud have exceptions and that's not a paradox because what i just said isn't in the thought so I'm not engaged in sulfur sure grip reputation if I were I can hand in my head as well as the logician and they all have exceptions and that includes heavenly voices heavenly voices proclaim what is normal natural expected most probable but they do not make pronouncements that are absolute that must take place twice as one of the famous commentaries for several of those pronouncements consistently raises the following question okay it's pronounced as ABC will happen does the agent in question have the free world commit suicide of course he does that it doesn't have to hand it doesn't have to hack agent with this free will could prevent it from happening by simply committing suicide they saying I'm Rosh Hashanah its degree how much money you'll make during the coming year seventy two thousand five hundred dollars is ripped in the heavens suppose the guy I'm so gedalia the third of tishrei today after rosh hashanah sighs commit suicide he slashed his wrists as he's bleeding to death must we imagine that summer will come with a check semi 2,500 odds and stick it in his hands so he made it that year no we do not have to leave that all these statements i was in statements about what can be normally expected to happen and we are now the jewish calendar living through such a period because one second because in these three weeks in these three weeks we askin azan make no voluntary celebrations including weddings nobody's are made during these three weeks don't celebrate buying a new house no voluntary celebrations if you look like him to be an ashcan sorry the nine days view up to including tisha Bob which starts and we can have now what about an engagement engagement that's the exception Thomas's that's an exception because if you're ready and she's ready granted now because three weeks from now maybe it won't work now you read that you say hey wait a minute wait a minute grab it now because maybe three weeks so now it won't work that can't be they have a big boys guarantee I'm going to marry so it so if she's the one that's guaranteed what they call a new dishes sometimes to buy shared she'll be here three weeks from now as you won't be ringing so now that I don't want or anyhow because she wasn't the designated party that's not true during these three weeks something could change so you see that even though the heavenly voice that proclaims it's not guaranteed now that's typical when you find statements in the tradition that sound like a human choice is predestined you have to understand that it's not true always there's a possibility of some other outcome based on free choice the most dramatic of them of all is Adam Ottoman have it in the garden had they chosen correctly all of the rest of human history wouldn't it happen all of it wouldn't it have so nothing could be predestined this yo the King 2,500 years ago could have been the Messiah had he done something right if you had done that right the last twenty-five hundred years of history would not have had so you cannot say that it was predestined that in 1862 someone so she'd do something they might not have been in 1862 Jewish tradition rejects predestination for human actions they might have predestination for other things that are unrelated to action about that we have no commitment but free will Trump's other forces and therefore nothing no human acts you can be predestined that's how that issue is taken care of a question okay all right so far yeah yeah so suicide the only case where you can kind of avoid your judgment you know what so you can mention that uh let's say you are destined to marry yeah four years before but it's suicide the only way for you no no no no Tomlin says maybe the other person will pray to God and because of his prayer he'll change the the designation she was destined for you I'd be clue his prayer he'll take you for us so there are other variables as long as good as us now the one that bothers most people because intuitively it's very compelling and that is God's foreknowledge if God knows the future how could I possibly have free will to make my own choice there are two approaches to this question you know in our sources and they're both adequate ways to deal with the problem so it's not a problem that we lose a lot of sleep over i'll try to share both of you both of them with you in the time that we have one is a solution to the problem and the other is a dissolution of the problem the second one is a way of understanding thing so the problem can't even be raised let's take the solution let me first rehearse the problem for your getting the problem clear and precise and straight is not pup is that simple I trivial let's do that and then show you how the solution worse so here I am about to make what to me is a free decision I'm going to either raise my hand or leave it down I can do either one I've done both of them myriads of times and even when i give this demonstration sometimes goes a long way sometimes goes the other way and i have five seconds to decide for three up down down up one up okay what up that's what I did yes me I could have left yeah there with two options open to me I chose one and the other one was discarded because of my choice that's how it seems to me now the critic says yesterday God knew that today you were going to pick it up yes you did know well then says the critic were you really able not to pick it up if you didn't pick it up wouldn't that contradict God's knowledge yesterday that you are going to pick it up let's just ask if you are capable if it's possible for you not to pick it up to say it's possible not to pick it up means it's possible the gods knowledge yesterday is wrong that doesn't sound right God's knowledge should be perfect infallible incapable of being wrong that's true then you didn't have the possibility of leaving it down you thought you were choosing between two alternatives it's a mistake really the only alternative your heads the one you did you didn't have another alternative and if free choice means choosing between two possible alternatives you didn't have that's the way the problem goes okay and that way putting the problem contains a hidden assumption very often when you look at a problem they're hidden assumptions sometimes they're quite so it's not easy to discover hidden assumptions in this case there is it in the subject and once you see it once I put it on the table and think about it I think you'll be able to see that we could discard that assumption and they get out of the problem straight forward let's go through it again I'm deciding to raise my hand to keep it down I decided to raise my hand so God knew yesterday I was going to raise my hand so now we ask well could I have kept it down if I kept it down it would have contradicted God's knowledge yesterday here's the hidden assumption you're assuming that God's not with yesterday is fixed chiseled in stone absolutely constant not sensitive to anything else that happens so I really picked it up and he knew i was going to pick it up now we say could I leave it down Oh leaving your dad's going to contradict the knowledge it says going up was a knowledge that it's going up is fixed constant chiseled in stone totally insensitive to everything else maybe that's not correct maybe that's not correct maybe God's knowledge yesterday reflects my choice today so that God knew yesterday that I was going to pick up my hand today because I picked it up but it / contrary I had decided to lift it up sorry I would I decided to keep it down then yesterday he would have known that was going to keep it down assuming that I do the opposite would give the result that yesterday he knew the odds because his knowledge yesterday is sensitive to what I do today Bertrand Russell the famous atheist gave Kevin illustration of this gave a way to think about this he says imagine God yesterday we picture God yesterday knowing i'm going to pick it up how does God get his knowledge that i'm going to pick it up he gets it by a sneak preview of the future sitting yesterday raised monday on sunday God says what's gonna happen tomorrow it takes a sneak preview so look at that got you sitting there it's making this choice and got leaves picking up his hand that's what's going to happen tomorrow he gets his knowledge on Sunday from what I do on Monday that's how he gets it if we then imagine suppose instead of lifting it up I kept it down God sitting yesterday and Sunday peaking your head says oh look at that God leaves keeping his hand down so that's what he's doing and then what he would know that I kept it down so when you rehearse the problem the problem fails I picked it up yesterday i'm going to pick it up what would have happened had i kept it down well what would have happened is that yesterday he would have known I was going to keep down that's no contradiction all you need to understand is that kant's knowledge yesterday is a reflection of what I actually do now this may be a little disturbing what do you mean what I do on Monday effects guys knowledge on Sunday after that he shortly the past is the best the past is over and done with the past is finished nothing I can do today will affect what happens at yesterday how could it possibly how could that possibly be right let me just acquaint you with two important 12 effects of a one philosophy has been trying to prove for 200 years that cause has to come before effect without success all the arguments of velocity is provided are not agreed upon science ticular particle science according to Richard Fineman who had a Nobel Peace nobel prize in physics and go to John Wheeler has actual cases where what happens now affect what happens before him so maybe it isn't so crashing the obvious that what happens today can't affect yesterday and when you're talking about God's relationship to the universe then it's not obvious at all if you think of God at the outside of time then God's knowledge can come from the whole timeline without any restriction whatsoever so if you just put in that that new perspective that God's not yesterday's reflection of what I do today then the problem goes away there's no contradiction when I did pick up my hand yesterday that I was going to pick up my end you asked what would have happened if I had left it down answer he would have known that i'm going to leave the town is no contradiction at all so both possibilities are sent i could be be open to that's a solution to the problem yes you wanted this question yeah we've discussed this before and a couple more things so God's knowledge is based on the choice that you made on Monday can God and have an influence on that choice you're going to make on Monday and what I want to use whilst I was trying to con classic in here where God tell Michelle tells Moses you know I'm gonna destroy people visual for this and Moses asked God for forgiveness is that a scenario where God knew that if I threatened modes of the destruction of the Jewish people Moses may or may not ask for forgiveness and if he does ask for forgiveness I will for you but if he's too stubborn ask for forgiveness what lunges would never be hopefully and I will spare the Jewish people is that God influencing that free will of motion of Moses to choose not to or sue okay let me let me you really raised a few a few issues let me just try to answer them one by one first of all our picture of God is that he is directly dictating the circumstances of choice influence he's doing that all the time he structures full handedly each structures the exact situation of that choice that you're going to make if you had a BC in front of you you'd be in one situation the only a and B in front of you you're in a different situation and he determines whether it's a B and C or just AMD see he's definitely setting up the conditions of choice all the time and one of the ways he sets of the conditions of choice is by himself entering it to the conditions when God gives me a commandment he has changed my conditions of choice my considers aren't the same anymore if you didn't give Annie commandment it's a free choice of my own I can do whatever I like it gives me a commandment that I know there's reward and punishment that I know that's God is absolute truth all those things will influence it's my choice oh he's influencing choices all the time that's up that's something that's ubiquitous it's all-encompassing now with respect to Moses you you're using something but you took it a little too far us wants the best whether we can change God's mind because God says the most of the strategy with people and possibly Thunder be happy that's likely I won't answer is no of course not we never change God's mind God's mind is conditional so in this case God says I'm going to present this to Moses if he please on behalf of the Jewish people then I'll forgive them he doesn't lead if they have the Jewish people then I'll destroy it that's his will that's his will that's his policy but it doesn't reflect lack of knowledge of course he knows what's going to happen so I'm just pointing out that you're not changing God's mind because his will for action is conditional but in terms of his knowledge he does what's going to happen see that Moses correct correct of course he knows he knows everything including the future actions of people yeah he knows all the actions while we've had situations if it'll make sense to me okay the answer is to teach us how to teach to teach you guys why we play out the situation altogether oh well I mean you're saying in general God does not have like it doesn't need knowledge very already has the choice planned out like it's it's his will no no no no Doug Leier am I said I said Laura let me say again because I was instantly at you guys did some time ago god says to moses he says i'm gonna do soy the juice be Moses pleased on their behalf and God says okay I won't just leverages be okay so now one question is well when Moses was pleased the Jewish people will see the end changing God's mind now changing guys mind needs changing what his resolve to do okay so the question is what is the result to do answer he has resolved that it Moses doesn't plead under the F then I'll destroy them and if he does plead under here and he will not destroy God's resolution is conditional okay that means in terms of what is resolved to do it's Moses petition that makes the difference what we learned from that is the importance of petition we learned that there are times when petitioning God can make the difference in what you get that's all measuring Moses actions against God's resolve for action that's a separate independent question what did god no was going to happen answer is of course he knew that Moses was going to plead and therefore he knew this news people was going to be forgiven he knew that that would happen but since it's resolved for actuals conditional that means the difference was made by Moses action okay sure okay think about think about if you if something if something bothers you yo you let me know we're open here that's one way to do it as a solution a dissolution comes from my monetise now must tell you this is controversial its controversial what my mind at ease means i don't think i could say but my point of view is that it's right hey Devon in all humility that's right Maimonides says God is indescribable incomprehensible transcendent infinite beyond or human description so it's not right to say God knows the future it's not right because that's a human description of God of course if I withdraw saying he knows the future one shouldn't the glue that it's either of the future that's also a human description we're not going to say he knows when I could say ziggurat we're gonna do something very unju ish you're gonna stop talking stop talking about you okay if the problem was supposed to be God's knowledge versus free will you can't even raise the problem now because we can't talk about God's not but people will say you just given up to tease what he can't talk about God can't talk about God what is there to do what is there to talk about all together isn't the Torah and the prophets and the writings full descriptions of God and the top of AD the beach and the cedar what do you mean I can talk about God you just thrown away all of Judaism the answer of my mind at ease and the capitalists together the answer is that we don't talk about what God is talking about what God does talk about what he does not what he is so we could speak about what he causes in history we can speak about his policies for action we're going to talk about what he is now describing him as knowing is describing something about what he is I don't know what he does and that being the case we're gonna leave that out and what we do is take any description that looks like the description of what he is and we translate it into a description of what he does that's the challenge re right so when it says that God is just we say what we would be just my other things it means you get what your dessert you get what you've earned what you have a right to so now we say of course not to say god it's just I can't describe God at all I will say is in the end you will get what you deserve in the end you'll get what you've earned whichever right God is merciful what does mercy do receive means that when justice demands some kind of strict penalty Rosie says don't make it so strict don't make it so immediate give a second chance or a third chance modified certain ways that's what mercy does so I'm not gonna say God is merciful I can't describe him but I can say when principles of strict justice with demand such and such a penalty doesn't always happen it doesn't always happen there's more time second chance modifications that's what happens in the world same with God's knowledge I'm not going to say God knows because that's the description of what he is I can say things happen as if he knows when things happen they're coordinated with the past present future in the way that knowledge would dictate if you were talking strictly about knowledge but not only should about now just talking about the way things work out they work out coordinated in the appropriate way that being the case we are talking about what God does not what he is and the problem of God's knowledge versus people can't even be raised now some people think that that's a Dodge kicked over what it is talk about what it does you're really in trouble you're really in trouble I know you're in trouble you can't solve this problem so you created a phony dodge pretend that you can't talk about it but really it's just an intellectually irresponsible position to say you're talking about what if but it does not what it is I'd like to just give you some other examples where we have been some cases where we are in that situation and I think it's a typical situation that we're in in life a great deal of science is dedicated to explaining what things are when we know they exist that we know what they do and we've got any clue how they do it what they do it what they are why does starshine okay we think we know the answer because the 20th century nuclear fusion was discovered what about the 19th century 18th century thousand 500 BC they all know the Starshine did it any clue whatsoever what stars were collections of gas under gravity with nuclear fusion to support their weight that generates light and heat certainly not they knew what stars do and no clue what stars are ask someone who's studied quantum mechanics what a full time is is it a wave is it a particle is it a wavicle Mabley maybe which I'm not making that up I'm thought that way that's a wavicle well we know how it behaves they'll tell you we know how it behaves I know what it does and what it is we just don't ask a question we don't closet my question so that for us to predict what it will do correct correct that's exactly where you are you don't know what it is you just know what it will do there's a outstanding french physicist Bernard I hope I'm pronouncing same right that's funny and he points out something very interesting there are certain types of particle decay which are regular if you get a free Neutron it will be K into a proton electron or positron I'd certain half-life in the decays always the case that way always never does it decay into any other particles it always the case the same way now he says look at this your science if something always happens in one way we say there's something behind it that makes it happen what I just roll over play dead and say all out that's just what we see the contrary would be lovely if you could discover that the neutron really had inside it a proton electron or positron and it was something which way don't say that their quirks the quarks behavior the course also just change so he says there must be a hidden reality which we're not observing and that hidden reality determines that particles decay in this way if I'm going to be consistent with the way science analyzes the world passed several hundred years always when you have something that happens with regular fashion you always find some structure behind it so he says when we look at the world through the lens of scientific investigation we're also getting a picture of what things do not a picture what things are so to say that we know what God does and we don't know what he is is not a Dodge it's not intellectually somehow reprehensible criminal on the contrary is a normal position that we are in now you may say well but these other things human beings have explained or capable of explaining and you're talking about something that things are incapable explaining to that I say two things first of all I don't think that makes a difference in the status of the situation nobody said when they asked why two stars shine or water stars made up and nobody had a clue that that's somehow and inappropriate position to be in and second of all I think you're perhaps a little too over optimistic if you say that everything that we see about the world is human comprehend who said maybe it is I find people have two attitudes toward science one is everything's basically understood and the other is will never understand everything because there's another problem over the hill I can't empathize with either of them when I just sit and watch the passing show and see what happens why should I have to play the role of profit to describe and what's going to happen maybe you will solve everything maybe won't solve everything maybe you can't maybe you can't I don't think we have a good basis for any of these things so that being the case to tell me that when when the Torah says will never understand what God is that somehow in an inappropriate intellectual move I can see any reason to say something like that could be that there are things about the world which we can't understand it is a movement modern philosophy so what a minority but then all the movements of philosophy minorities because they're always more than two sides to the picture which says that certain long-standing problems about which we made very little progress may be that the human mind is structured in such a way that it can't solve that problem human mind has presuppositions it has certain types of computational styles and I certain types of analytical science some have said the problem of consciousness which at present is grossly unsolved consciousness is greatly misunderstood could be one of those problems or let's say that is a problem that requires a quintillion of memory notes for a computation to understand the brain as great as it is doesn't have a quintal probably has up to a quadrillion but now continue so that being the case may be things that we just can't understand okay yeah consciousness here no I'd say the I certain prosperous she's here to column again for example as one of these my famous philosophers who says it's something you wrote a book about it it's but if a candidate says people are thinking about it from millennia and although you have lots of hassle talk it is not understood relationship to the brain is not understood it could be one of those things for which we just don't have the ability to to turn to South it's only no reason to think that we have let me give you a very simple example you know what prime numbers are now prime numbers are different by 2 or called twin primes like 11 and 13 17 and 19 okay the print times go on forever no one knows no one knows to this minute no one has proved it or disprove okay that's a problem that I took me nine seconds to describe to you and the whole made hundreds hundreds of years hundreds of very talented mathematicians working on this they know they'll have immortality mathematics they salads a problem no one has solve the problem is any guarantee that someone will someday solve the problem no there's no guarantee it could just remain and that's all problem may be the shortest demonstration that would solve it would require 14 million lines of text no one's going to think that up I droid the four-color problem is solved only bank by computer because it required something like 10,000 cases to be sort of that before call the problem is any map can be colored with a maximum of four colors are you example suppose I have a map right and I want to correct adjacent countries in different colors so suppose the map looks like this the two division so I got three countries I can cover that with three with three colors all right now imagine map like this I've got a circle and in a circle around the outer circle there are three dividers so in the outer slice I have one two three sections and is the intersection how many cows do I need to color the countries in that map so that every country has a different color for obviously because every one of the touches of all the other three right now any map you like structure it anyway you like squiggle the lines any way you like is there a map that requires five or can for do for any man that's called the four color problem that was stopped by computer because 10,000 or more cases had to be checked and no Yuma being is going to do that in a lifetime so they programmed the computer and there is a whole discussion you can look this up I will discuss it well it's only solved by computer and the human mind contains the hold of the proof is that a proof is the who's supposed to convince people is it a mathematical proof of relies on technology what kind of proof is that does it have the strength of a normal mathematical proof by the way if you like these kinds of problems figure out a three dimensional example which requires five five colors there are in you know in a two dimensional example that proof said through their four colors are enough but you can think up three dimensional structures that require 55 cause it's a two dimensional problem but a three-dimensional seguin five some extra I don't know I just I just figured out for myself I never looked it up on the net I figured out myself a couple examples it has been what because of the fact that it required a computer simulation this is the thinking mathematically where oh you mean problems in the proof anything ok but the philosophically the interesting question was mathematical proofs are supposed to carry sitting absolute certainty you know mathematical wizard around for thousands of years and no doubt arises they seem to be really absolute now reasoning that relies on a machine to run through the cases does it have that kind of certainty the mathematics and should be part of my plan shouldn't require another night as a philosopher that's what vigil I don't know there's any resolution to so I mean I'm just giving example of a problem which at least so far as we could tell a human being is that going to think that up and I said he's not going to make that argument in its heads just too hard there are tens of thousands cases to be checked he's not going to do that okay all right