Daf Yomi Bava Kama Daf 73 by R’ Eli Stefansky

[Music] good morning rap to the guest a whole row what's your name I'll give you a left from Silver Spring the mascs these are your children what's your names Mishi Yeshua and Zi how you doing zeevi why' you get the the worst seat in the house you got here zie we have over here a seat special for you yeah give him a seat why this in the corner I know what it feels like to be the youngest in the family because I'm the oldest all right rabai so last night we had the uh Englehart boys from hotel and this sadic he's in kanun as is what's going onun and this is what he said after the shear he put on some volume there at least three mdy Shar played [Music] in he said one time they had internet so the first thing he did is he downloaded a bunch of mdy sh and he played it over there beautiful starting the branch we already it's starting we already have as I started watching the beginning of the multi shabas year I experienced not one but two kisses from Hashem first tonight was the first round of the football Wild Card playoffs and I decided to do D instead of watching it lo and behold you decided that we should watch football anyway it was the first time in history that uh M Andi played a football we we had NFL here yesterday to show clut with a was a beautiful it wasn't my piece it was already done but you should everybody whoever hasn't been there should go back and watch that clip it's G while learning and we we're we're on Bor time here before come out yeah second on a more serious note you brought up the concept of yam today's D was so familiar because I was just doing reviewing of K this shabon this is doing we should learn from It Was Written right there regarding the Joel M it's the beginning of the month so I want to uh talk about these guys here these sadim happens to be that this is one of the roughest periods of time for mdy in terms of uh Finance es for all those people who were worried that mdy is going to make money on the shabbaton so barem barem don't worry about it we lost a lot of money and here we are but so a bunch of people came forward dollar a day Mr Leon shama Elliot MTZ shy Noak dollar a day Alex and Shirley Gilden or lipes Philip Goldstein Eugene Weisberg famous Eugene Weisberg the photographer no Saul stepner Dan Rosenberg Jack stepner now monthly new or recommitment ra Freud 36 a is five T poock 18 Glenn rer 52 Joseph schling 10 yakob soled 30 Michael Co and $300 a month Michael Michael chessel 36 I have to show a video he sent in today Daniel Sher 36 Joel green 52 schy burtz 18 o go to sponsor mdy I think it is mdy MD monthly I've sent numerous short emails to you over the last almost two years I joined MD but I want to share a bit more this time my father-in-law Dr Bob Libman from Toronto have been bugging me to join your da since he joined at the beginning of bras who's another person who's coming on the cruise I always brushed them off saying that I have my Kusa I love this one here say and we got our own pace learning with as much clarity as we can muster after long day at work almost two years ago we came in for bris which coincided with the massive mdyc he took me and my boys I see you because I'm I'm looking over here he took me and my boys you have to sit without moving hell you're not used to the seat there's a hot seat you think there's a reason why certain people people act certain ways and he took me my voice to see what actually sold me on the D was the video presentation when you spoke about your daily learning schedule I couldn't believe someone who could easily Pat himself on the back this is just for the new guys all you guys know all this on the back being successful boss America drop everything come small whatever I've not missed the D since though I don't subscribe to your due today's D even if you miss method the all five falls behind but always cat I always catch up even if I'm two weeks behind I'm telling you there's people that say it and they say look at me I've done it I've done it at the end I don't want to see what happens we have a few people that fought with me over the years and they're not with us anymore I mean they're alive but they're not in the D anymore how you doing zie it's good over here no somebody took a seat two hours asleep two a two hours asleep serious two hours pretty soon I'm going to get I'm going to give you a ghetto over here so be careful tonight TR we started Bama together listen to this more than six years ago and finally just finished I made a that would take us 135 years to finish at that rate it's want people to know that even people who are blessed with a strong Yesa background and have finished many it compliments the rest of your learning and tremendous I love it the picture below is from our I'm the short one to keep up your amazing schedule here they areai or here they are beautiful I'm sure should come visit us once in a while was he really he looks so familiar voice said trend congratulations to is sitting right over here 50 years of marriage you guys are if you're gonna sing it sing [Music] [Applause] it [Music] more so M shabas we learned the learning better when they eat meat today's the yard side of the babaali babali I remember when he was I was we lived in then and closes a clip about the babali preparing meat for even though he himself didn't eat meat on a weekday but we're not showing that one sponsored Anonymous from Lakewood for Ben Mal the of the month another sponsor Joe Sharp in honor of the MD that's a new one the unity of the last day thank you that come from supporting have no AI Gary oh well we don't have all of them we have Noam thank you for coming back AI thanks for being here Gary was here last night who else and I think it's yoseph let me just I lost my place here oh and Y he's here today for your Relentless commitment mdy why you standing up in the back over there it's to hide okay teaching I was talking last night you guys both I don't think maybe I you were here last night how somebody came in SCH and said they heard from terrible Massacre Inon and M entire shabas and then we're hearing the bombs the entire shabas and then it turns out that two 16year olds sh I'm not saying it's a small thing he got moderately injured they killed him right away and that was the whole thing it's like and we're going with sugar the entire shabas something something happened something you still convin something happened it was all night it was all day yesterday a lot of bombs but something happened to them not to us oh you saying that okay what what you saying y'all you didn't hear it the whole every three minutes I know so but they were they were trying to put together maybe it's in a comma we our heads were racing what is going on on Massacre they said it's another October 7th that's a guy comes in SCH another I don't know exactly it's shabas but I'm telling you it's another Massacre October 7th okay in the memory everybody wants to be like a hero and say the news first and like chabas maybe we shouldn't say we shouldn't say anything in the memory of B ear from Anonymous and manchest joined this year at the beginning of and Allan of father interesting in memory of our dear cousin mdy headquarter Coffee corner and beverages for the week men the learner of my son oh where is he on Zoom maybe could on Zoom good point if you get him on Zoom say and Anonymous for the the art of the month for an easy child birth for his daughter and healthy baby no you can't get it Remy whatever can't get it I don't know how many people are in Zoom you know it's only a Remy we need we need guys like Gary to do it oh he's trying he's trying fine for being here on Sundays I whatever B you'll be on also if you're here you know what I'm talking about okay so we are holding like eight lines down by we're in middle of the Su of the famous there's only six times in that is like and here's one of them and that is the story is that there were two aen that testified that ruin stole an animal a sheep in few months later kavis okay three months two months later these two the the the guy that stole the Sheep the aam that testified about him they or let's say or they signed the document whatever they did they tremendous they were honored at a to testify that there was a and then a month later in we find out that they're not such after all they're not such they are they are they were actually on a safari in South Africa what's going on over there Vol what's going on in in not in South Africa in Kenya show my room South Africa in Kenya and they're posle now the question is do we say since we know that they were Liars in inan so everything that happened afterin they were Liars so when they were at a and when they signed the document afterin it's all possible or no we say when do we determine and find out and not when do we say in bezan that they are liars inat so it's fromat onwards we go forward niss they sign something niss whatever they sign is not possible so is like a we go backwards from the time today we say that they were Liars a few months ago so everything in those few months is possible so now we're holding by here we go so we here we're inside we're protected from the rain it's raining in Isel it's a good thing on Monday on Monday Bays they testify that they saw on Sunday that the guy stole a sheep you see he's holding on to a sheep that's stealing a sheep on Tuesday they testified that they saw on Monday that he Sheed the sheep the same ad him there was a somebody comes on to to come and say you were with us on Wednesday they say you were with us you never saw you weren't there on Sunday you weren't there on Sunday they testified that they saw on Sunday that he stole sheep you weren't there you were in Kenya and then on Thursday another Adam say you weren't there on Monday you're lying on Monday also you with us also in Kenya let's say fine so the two that testified that they saw the stealing and they saw the how much they want this Mr ghav in the bubble how much do they want him to pay they want him to pay four or five times the amount two kful cuz he stole and two more for the if it was a sheep two more for the so because it was found out that they are liars if you're if we could prove that you were somewhere else you a that testified that he stole and he you were somewhere else you're in Africa if we could prove that then those who try to make him pay four times they themselves have to pay the four times how did it go exactly like this that they first testified on Thea they testified on the and then goes in order the if you look at the in the in the back the first on the purple on top what are they talking about that he stole you see he's holding on to the Sheep the last box on the left they say when he's trying when he sh it he has the knife in his [Music] hand if we go backwards think about it on Wednesday we found out that the guy is a liar that that these a that testified that it was stolen their Liars they were in Africa so now we have to go back to Monday when they testified on Monday we know that from Monday according to we go backwards from the time they lied so from Monday everything they test ify from Monday on is a big lie so what they testified on Tuesday who testified on Tuesday R marim testified on Tuesday bad guys so it's not even a testimony they can't even come into bz and if we knew on Tuesday that these guys are liars that they were in Africa on on Monday or on Sunday when they say they were there they saw it on Sunday okay on Monday they testified but they testified that they saw they they saw him on Sunday stealing and they were in Africa on Sunday so from Sunday on they can't testify a single thing they're Liars in bz unless we don't go backwards unless we just start from Wednesday on like says but according to we go backwards and we take into consideration from the point that they like on the then why in the world should we trust them for their that there was a Theos is possible and if Theos is possible then they never testified that it wased and they shouldn't have to pay for the should be a but we only go but the was good let me ask you so you're not even talk you're not even talking about that they're APLE you're saying that they're the but they had there was a testimony we have to separate there's a testimony and they're not POS on that testimony because we don't care we go forward there was a good a different but it's a different it wasn't in the same sentence a different a you're asking that they prove but wait a minute time out time out time out there's no and but they try to get him for for for they they testified and they wanted him to pay so why shouldn't we take that you're right there's no but they testified so you're saying if there's another set of AD according to you Accord if there's another set of ad that said I hear I hear okay you ask me let's see he always cheats he learns on sh he comes ask biges so you got get [Laughter] the why should they so check this out I don't know if it helps but I did this uh it's not going to work so because I don't know how to do this oh it's a little bit of a problem the the what was don't look at that the way it happened the happened first on on Wednesday on the so it started from the and then went to the maybe this is a little bit of ask the who cares what the was first okay so the was first on the so they got him on the and then they got him on Thea but if at the end of the day we know that they were Liars when it came to the is this a little bit what you asking a little bit okay okay I hear so as thear once we know that they are puzzle why because it was AA I don't care when the Adam came forward and and told us that they weren't there for the Geva they were in Africa but we find out eventually that's what happened so comes out and we're going to go retroactive we're going to go backwards it comes out that when they testified about the they were P so we cannot consider their testimony at all and therefore they shouldn't have to pay four or five or the extra the two the three says right so what happened was this is me not Yoshi so that's why it's a little bit uh you see I just threw it the testimony happen on both the the the the there was one testimony one shot and and there's only one that came forward and they said that it has to be we still have to say that the was before the the otherwise there is no um there's no the then they don't count okay so the the was one in one shot the was right there one day just the was before the the and that's how we have a case says okay so now this again we have a between let's just say this case yeah when we find out inat that the are liars do we go back and consider everything that they testified even in other cases random cases of real estate of whatever and we go backwards and say everything they did is no good or we go from today on night now if we could say that it's actually so we have a little bit of a problem why are arguing it's not even it's that happened hundreds of years before them says look it seems like we already spoke about this spoke about it what two our cakes two people testified that he stole two people testified the same whoa it's okay you know what happened I didn't remember him on Friday now I remember him maybe doing he has he has one he has he has the the sweatshirt if you wear the sweatshirt you're you're allowed to do certain things that other people can't do and then they came and they said okay once and we're going to explain this very well once part of the testimony goes out the whole testimony goes so they they they testified that there was AA they testified there was a and we found out that there's no so then we erase everything who's but what if they only got them for the second part on the the still has to pay because he still G this this Witnesses on the but the the the fal have to pay three because they try to get him for three if it was a bull says we're talking about two testimonies which would seem like two separate of but if it's one set of it would seem like goes into it now let's explain it he says there's a difference between if it's two testimonies or one if it's one testimony no everybody agrees that once you take part of the testimony out you have to get rid of everything so let's let's break it down and get to what it really is what does it mean two testimonies one testimony if you notice I've been noticing it took me 70 days to notice this but seems to explain itself a lot there's a lot of a lot of words that that actually help in explaining I think in other is a little bit less it's talking about two groups of witnesses what does one testimony mean oh this is very important means one group of AD two ad in other words who testified on two things on a on at different times completely different times okay doesn't mean in in because one of the Israelis because in Hebrew it seems like means like like one after another no two separate times two different days maybe and comes along and says you see a lot of words says if when we're talking about one set of and they testify one after another if they first testify then the next day they they testified it was also when we get them on the who you hear what's going on here one group of AD said on Sunday we saw the guy Steel on Monday they said we saw the guy then we find out that they're Liars on Monday they never saw anything because they were in Africa then we have to cancel what happened on Sunday that doesn't make any sense doesn't make sense yes they're bad guys and they're Liars just because they're Liars on Monday doesn't mean they were lying on Sunday prove it maybe they're sadim on Sunday something happened to them they decided to lie on Monday would you come up with something like that if I could get guys prove that they they were lying on Monday how do I go backwards to Sunday so therefore we are forced to say doesn't mean two separate groups it means one group of AD two people that they acted as if there two separate the the case where it's two testimonies means that that's the case that happened on two separate days and if they there was a on one thing on does not mean that they are APLE on Thea yeah the question is actually the answer if if if one set of Adam said testimony on Sunday that they stole and on Monday they said they we found out that they we saw that he and we find out that they are liars Africa Monday so we're going to get rid of that we're going to keep the first that he stole that's good that makes sense to us but when it comes to the same set of just they said it when they say their testimony in one shot they say on Sunday they say we saw him Ste and and we got him on the we got these two a on the sheing part that ruins the entire a even the stealing why because they said it in one sentence they said it in one CH now pay attention over here it's a little it's a little tricky like a that we go backwards so we go backwards and the whole sentence was we saw him stealing we saw himing yeah we saw him stealing saw himing and we got him on theing part so we go backwards because since it's so we find out that he is a liar these these these Adam are liars by the sheing which also means that they're Liars by the gva because it's in one sentence and so from that point of gva we go backwards onwards everything they did is possible because we're go to small tiny we're going to go in a tiny of in other words when I say a sentence and it's within one breath I didn't take any breaks in Middle it's all considered one sentence over here they said we saw him we saw him still we saw him in one breath in one sent sence so everybody right now in the everybody would agree that that's considered one sentence and since I got him at the end of the sentence we got them they were in Africa at the end of the sentence at the part so therefore I have to cancel the first part also listen I'm not going to make them pay for the G because I never I can't prove that they were in Africa when they testify in Gena but since I can prove that they were in Africa on the I'll get them on the they'll have to pay two three for the and they pule on the Gena pule they don't have to pay for it there's no yet you're looking at me like I'm saying something crazy what yeah yeah it's no this this is rash this everything yeah of course there's no where's the was on only says theor my love sorry oh so now the is getting to this point we see this that we spoke about if we go backwards or forwards with is perhaps when he when we get these ad on the part that they weren't they weren't there by the so we go from that point on we don't go backwards to the happened at we might have here I don't know if we need a oh okay you know what this this might be a good I just threw this in this morning so again forgive if it's not 723 and 724 in the in the morning basically just means it's one sentence okay but let's split the sentence two parts there's a part that's at 723 and the part at 724 when they come and and they say that they were IM and they were in Africa they're talking only about 724 what they said at 7:24 in the morning they were in Africa we don't know what happened at 7:23 we w we can't testify that you in Africa when you witnessed the stealing that part we we're not talking about we're talking about you said that you saw but it happened their testimony the testified that they saw him steal and she in one minute from 723 into 724 it was one long breath one long testimony so going to say well wait a minute we only could prove that 724 what happened in 723 we can't go backwards so we'll we'll we'll put that they're in trouble for 724 since we never spoke about Thea part so we're not going to go backwards to that and there's no on the says we go backwards perhaps this is like that we go a little backwards you might be wondering like what's going on here we're talking about because it's not really about going backwards is gonna address it when they testify that that about the things that you're talking about at 724 so because there's on that 724 so we're going to take everything go backwards all the way and say that the because at the end of the day when there's it was one sentence from 723 to 74 is one sentence and we got them at the end of the sentence then we we're also going to get them on the beginning of the sentence we go backwards retroactive and then says what are you talking about this is not Allah about going backwards this is about saying your sentence is possible since I pass the end of it then everything you said is possible that's okay quick story a true story there was a r that they always want to prove that he doesn't know how to learn that they were better Learners than him etc etc etc so at one point he passing about a piece of chicken that was kosher the B didn't like it and they they proved that it was TR and they sent telegram to inspector thead saying that we need to fire this Ro look he passing about this piece of chicken that it's kosher when in fact it's inspector wrote a telegram back proving that he what's going on that they want to fire this R because of this so he wrote to them because of this and this and says this and then that a whole he says the piece of chicken is kosher and immediately L immediately like two minutes later they got another telegram it says in the telegram I made a mistake I made a mistake and what was trying to tell them is that even the can make a mistake the point of the story is that did it on purpose he himself in order to take away from another y from another and he he pretended that he made a mistake in he did the whole thing to make a point okay like he said it'ser and then right away for telegram happens and all out comes this other thing and says hey mistake everybody will agree that you're telling me if it's in fact true that everybody agrees to that idea like we thought that if it's within one breath then it's one debor it's one one sentence then then we have to go back and erase even what he said at 723 because it was in one sentence we got to get rid of that why so there's a concept that I skip anything we have to take the we have to erase the whole sentence even the part of get rid of even will Adit that that it's not of does go backwards or not it's of how do we say what do we pass it's one sentence part of it talks about part of it talks about but they're not connected we could differentiate we could split 723 724 and and because we got them on the part doesn't mean we got them on the part holds no one sentence is all the same whatever he says in that sentence it's connected and if got the the two and we found out that they're liars about the that means they're also liars about the G we throw the whole testimony out fine that's the end of that for now the sponsored by Greg Haber for the success and the safe return of our and hostages of does really say that whatever is in one sense sentence is one thing but so my goal is that every B in should know this because anytime a b argues with me about and you know it's terrible this that I say okay so what what does t mean so usually they sayura means that if you have a bunch of fruit you have to give a little bit you get give 17% to the Ley like no it's not 177% you don't give to the Ley you give to the I'm not talking about Trum I'm talking about oh oh yeah yeah yeah I know I know that is kids are fine finally I tell them what it is what is it I say if there's a you put aside a let's say a sheep as a carbon as a OA and then you see a much better nicer sheep so you say I don't want the first sheep to be the carbon I want the second I want it to be a instead of this should be instead of oh yeah of course yeah yeah of course so they said of course so how many mes are you so this guy says three this guy says two I said no no no no what I'm bringing so my goal is that no nobody in CL should ever make that mistake again and here it goes if you do it then both animals become you cannot you cannot trade one animal for another once an animal is a even if you try to be good and bring a nicer and here's a slight little [Music] demonstration so becomes heish father oh the second one the bigger one the nicer one should be instead of the first now both become so this case is a little more complicated what happens is he has in front of him two means the entire thing goes to hasem you brought it voluntarily schl is more for yourself it's a carbon that you're able to eat from it's a completely one is uh extreme Kusa the other one has less Kusa so you have two coronets in front of you and now you have a nice G sheep that walks in and you say a very interesting L you say this third sheep should be what did you say it could only be one of or the other it can't be two so what do you say so we have throughout says the first whatever he said first so in this case he said first it's it's a funny it should be so it should be this is the one that we want not the first part the second part if he really wanted one animal to be two things which is impossible since only the can say two words in once but a human being who wants to say that it's a he's G to have to pick one word before the other he's going to have to say but he doesn't want one he wants both so now what how's he going to say both when he wants both he wants both I can't say he meant o he didn't mean o he meant and SCH he's an he thought I can make one carbon both so what do you do you can't do it's in fact so said what do we do if it's so yesterday Z was here kid that did 1700 D gar and he on the spot he said you know what you do biter you take this animal and you let it graze until it befalls a m it has a m once it has a m once it has a you you redeem it so now you have cash that you got from and what do you do with the cash you buy half of it you use for and half of it you use for because it is both oh but here's the point that we're looking for but if said that it should be and then he had 10 minutes later I already have and we ask what why would it go why could he take back what he already did he made it it's finished here here's the a guy said this should be know it should be he didn't even take a breath and what's the remains but is of the opinion so what should be is if a guy says this is no it's a he didn't take a breath it should be you're allow you're allow to take it back say as long as it's within one sentence within one breath within the period of whatever it is it should be okay so why is it not okay says the gar the reason why it doesn't work am again the Amry there's two measurements of and I'll just say about one is a two word measurement what is the fourward measurements how long however long it takes to say two words sh which is how we greet each other but there's a way to greet your rebi with more respect say sh RAB please don't try to be funny some guy came over to me last night okay fine I get it four words two words four words is way too much that together with the 8 Minute da joke whatever it's always about the eight minute da I can do it in 8 minutes R okay fine one is asking that what when does he say that you cannot switch from it's too long you waited too long howal greets his rebi he says four words so that in doesn't work because it's too long then off it's too many words but if he only paused for two words worth ever second whatever it is sh just two words so therefore if in the same testimony there's a testimony about a and and it all happened within one breath of sh only two words that's and therefore if I get him on the I got him on BR is Gonna Miss This one poor we got to start a few minutes earlier B you're going to get all from now on I know I know there's something called which we spoke about you were with us in Africa that's placing the a in a different place is that this story never happened that what says Rashi Ru testifies that shim I'm sorry Adam testified that ruen killed shim and another set of Adam say it's not true ruin did not kill shim that's not what happened Ley killed shim whatever the the testifying that what you said is wrong not that you were in a different place you're you're lie I have AER to your testimony there's another much better way to have let's say you have aen that say Ru Kim what's a better way to prove that he's wrong without that better than it's that's better he's alive he shows up and B the guy is alive shim here I am so that's the biggest there is so and then we get first we had first another set of it's not true and then we find out that they were in Africa they die we found out that they were in Africa after there was already so Theos is gone says part of the it's like the beginning of it didn't finish as a St as throw this in here that it's possible that one of the biggest things in is when parents are not on the same page that's they're each other this parent says no no let him do it don't let him do it that's it that's where Things Fall Apart I'm talking from personal I no not me personal my neighbor's personal experience things go bad in the number one problem is when the parents are not on the same page how do I know this the PK says that here's the P that if you knock out your slave's eye he goes free you knock out his tooth he goes free so we have Adam that testify that he knocked out the tooth first what happens he goes free then they testify he knocked out the ey now we had Dr Levon last night he says that to get a fake tooth cost about $3,000 sometimes to get a whole $3,000 how much does it cost to get a new eye there's no such thing as a new eye that's it so how much is it worth $100,000 I don't know people wouldn't agree to to get rid of their ey for half a million dollar a million dollars maybe more so obviously on the on the slave market there's a huge difference between a truth and eye so what they're testifying is you owe this guy $50,000 for the eye a lot of money not the $3,000 for the tooth because first you knocked out his tooth he's free now you knocked out a free man's eye you owe for the whole eye and even the master agrees to this which doesn't make any sense right now we found out that there are Zim sorry get rid of that that so since they're Liars they have to pay for the eye that they wanted to minus the tooth okay fine oh no they have to pay for the if it's exactly like we just read there's no other AD involved there we'll see what the other AD what it would look like they have to pay the slave for the eye he got out with the ey they have to pay for it they should pay the master for the eye they're lying about to the master he has to pay he's the one that has to pay for the eye they should pay him what the master agrees why would the why would he agree to something like that that means that his slave goes out free he just lost $100,000 slave why agre to that must be and I'll just say real quickly because it's already 805 the famous story with that he a t I actually have a picture of his what they say is his grave basically he was a person who was and the said to I want to be and said you won't be able to he says give me so he pretended he was a woman he went in front of him and and he looked that way that way finally told his give me a and give me fire and he burnt the nail real hard and he made himself blind then it says in the me him okay fine so at this point where we are let's go back over here at this point because they are lying I'm sorry they said first came out the tooth then came the the eye he has to pay the the the now we have two other that said the opposite happened he was released because he knocked out his eye afterwards he knocked out his tooth he only owes him $3,000 which is a much smaller amount so now they are making the EV lose his eye the if if we only look at the first set of Adam the EV was going to gain $100,000 because they they claimed that the ey came he knocked out his eye when he's already a free man and that's worth $100,000 the the the master should pay him $100,000 comes the second C and says no you got released because of your eye so you get zero for the eye we pay you full price he should pay you full price for the tooth which is only $3,000 that's a hug La so what do we have here we actually have that the first set of AD and the second set of are saying the opposite of each other first that says tooth then I and the other one says I then tooth Z what happens when and of course the master agrees that the ey came out first and then the D because now he owes a much less money now it makes a lot of sense oh and this is the this is the proof and that's the end for today and it says look what happened the third and all of a sudden to the middle guys to the oh so what do you see that even though there I could still do I could still get them in trouble for why because is the beginning of have a wonderful day [Music] for that