Daf Hashavua Iyun Sugya - The Lomdus of "Kom Dina" of the Trumas HaDeshen and Rav Elchanan

this Torah class is brought to you by Torah anytime.com okay good morning everyone sh we're uh going to discuss a su that actually appeared at the bottom of we mentioned last week that uh we wanted to get into this uh subject the G discusses a situation of a suff somebody who might be the son of the deceased or might be the son of the and the children of the yam that come to divide the of the yam after the yam already divided the of the deceased so in other words the uh deceased died and his estate was split between the saf and the aam the aam said look look kid you're my kid so since you're my kid uh I get it all and the kid said no I'm the son of the deceased and therefore I get it all so they divided it then what happened was the of them died and now the of them died the suffk wants a piece of the action he wants especially in light of the fact that a month ago in bezden the yam said Hey kid you're my kid so he said okay if I'm your kid so let me inherit you together with your other their sons but the B of them said get lost you're the son of the deceased so he says okay if I'm the son of deceased and we got to revisit last month's court case where I only got half I should have gotten the whole thing and they said no you got half because they didn't know what to do so you got half be happy you got that half but now you're coming to say that you also get a share of the yam get lost so regarding that the name of RA which means that the original court case was decided and they split it and that's not revisit it cannot be Revisited it's set and now there's another case and regarding the other case the have a right to tell the guy you know get lost you have no right to take a piece of the action without a proof that you're a that's the sheet of R ABA says no says the guy gets to say if you don't want to give me a piece of the action of the B of the yam then I should get the entire estate of the deceased so riria says it's revisit and then the gar says well we have a case that's uh fairly analogous to that case namely a case where a guy owned a piece of land and he had the rights of Passage to his land through through the other field what happened was in the course of time the field got lost so the is um the T holds the um holds you have to go on the shortest route but you for sure have a rot you have to take the shortest one but you you definitely have a root somewhere even though you don't know exactly where it is you definitely have a roote and the say no the guy could say either I'm going to rip you off and you pay me a million dollars or or get a helicopter to get a hot air balloon to get to your uh get to your land so has a question what's in doesn't the guy for sure have rights of Passage so thear says no because we're talking about there are four owners now and each one pushes them off to the other owner so says so then why what's in admon why does admon say the guy does have a right to the pass to the path and the gamar says ultimately we're talking about a case where four people um owned it however they sold it to one person so right now the guy the uh former owner should be able to tell the one buyer look I for sure have a path here and that is the opinion of admon admon says that the guy could uh say to the owner it's true last week I had no rights because each one pushed me off but right now I have rights so admon says uh your rights are Revisited even though you lost them your rights are Revisited and the say no come it was pasin last month you don't have rights so uh you're that that decision stands so the gamar wants to say and by the suff and the are exactly like and in the case of the pathway and then thear says they're not dependent and there's a reason why I want to go through the and that is uh I I believe maybe what is most necessary in the today is uh in yeshivas of advanced learning where they learn and they learn that's very nice but you have to be able to once you know what they're saying read it back into the gamar there's sometimes a disconnect between the lamus and what the gamar actually says and you know it's it's nice you could have ideas or you could have rash but you don't understand unless it works back into the okay so the G then says no the are not dependent on each other why at first wants to line up like like ad so AB says no I could say like admon admon only says in the case of the pathways where the guy could say look my right should be Revisited and that is because the guy has a Tinus B the guy's Tinus B is I for sure have a pathway so if somebody has an absolute definitive ta only then do we revisit it Mas came by the case of the saf and the yam where the saf wants to say well um if I'm not a brother I should be able to get I should be able to get uh a the entire estate of the mess well it's a Tina suff he um he doesn't know what he's tining he doesn't know whether he has rights to the estate of the yam or or if he has rights to the estate of the mess so it's two different tinas but each Tina is a Tina Shema he's a Shema to get the estate of the yam he's a Shema to get the estate of the mess you're right the two shemas together produce give me uh give me cash but he doesn't have a definitive t on any one piece as opposed to by the road the guy says I know I have a road so maybe we only say a t that a decision stands in a scenario where in another excuse me R ABA saying I would only go back and revisit a case if the person's tin is a Tini but if the person does not have a Tini then we say whatever we decided was decided it's F right now you don't have a so we're going to stick with our original decision mean we only revisit we only reawaken a person's rights if those rights were def were tinas Bari on the other hand Ria who says we do revisit the rights of by the sa says only over there we revisit the rights why and in the case of uh the field we would go like the raban that we do not uh revisit the person's rights we say hey pal yesterday you were stuck so you know so in other words R says I would agree in the case of the pathway to the raban that c why why would I agree Kam because in that case we're going to have the D stand because that was a definitive din the din yesterday that you don't have a pathway is a definitive Den you didn't have a pathway yesterday because each one could push you off so since it was a definitive decision we're going to stick with it m came by the suff and the it was not a definitive decision what we decided the other day that you guys split it it's only because we didn't know any better we don't know who it should belong to but uh because that wasn't a definitive decision we don't have to stick with it okay that's the and the gar now the question is what is the what is the rationale behind Cina why can we not revisit a case what what is it once PE you know shuts the book here they have the book open okay we shut the book we make a decision and no one could question us I mean why there's no information why can't we revisit a court case so we have a Chumash trash was isin isin was one of the his are collected in one of my favorites far and in the sh and he made up his own Shas the questions where he he he created the questions to be able to address them that's uh y Dua and he gives an amazing Lamas over here why come says the says the this is found in Sim Shin Shin similar to that which we say he's coming with the if he's the son of the he has a portion with if he's the son of the the half that the Y took yesterday in the estate of the delay it's a sa that he got it basically like this whichever one is less valuable the suffix says belongs to me either the other half of the mess's estate that theam took or um a portion of the yam's estate which everyone is less valuable should be mine and brings the half that the took already went to him and the suff cannot re because he has another we revisit the original case because now there's new information and now the have to give to the either the of the state of the mess a portion of the yam now there's a to that we have to be aware of look at you have a g we're learning which is in look the of is only if there was a court case andz divided it but if they didn't really settle the original case yet then of course that original case is revisit so the is just invoking the over here which we should have spoken out when we learned it but at least we're speaking out now they didn't divide but the the estate is just laying before them that the Tak we still don't know why you ready fasten your seat belts the really should be correct that the suff should be able to say look you can't have your cake and eat it if I'm the son of the Y I should get a piece of the Y and if I'm not then I should get the whole estate of the mess it's not the that you can't question bz he already diverted his attention from that portion and he was from it that the took that money that the Y got becomes like the's money you can't re it in other words There's A din it's basically Yos Yos you from it you didn't think you'd ever get it back so if you didn't think you ever get it back you gave it up you you you Mish so so the Alum was Co it so you can't get it back no yes works out yes so the sh quotes the and the sh disagrees the sh says it works out but it seems that um if if a ghav steals it the reason you have to give it back even though the person was May because um it came to your hand but in this case it didn't come to the guy's hand to is bezden awarded it to him Eli bezan needs to revisit their decision but since the person was May so bezin gets to continue their decision I the person should return it because Y is not alone I think is not alone alone is not a is not good enough if it comes to the hand of the G of but here it came to The yam's Possession be bz awarded it to him no I I think that's clear well realiz this from the beginning when they made so what that's why you should if something a new fact came out I could maybe understand there's no new fact to the case the case is the same there's nothing new what what has changed what it's changed is the yam died and now the guy wants to take a piece of yam's estate and they're trying to push him off by saying that he is the son of the mess so he says oh if I'm the son of the mess you got to decide what you want me to be I can't fact change um fact no the facts didn't change but the factors changed the circumstan changing enough to have to revisit it yeah because the the reason why we split it before is because of the possibility that he's the son of the aam but that possibility now opens up uh in a way for the the suff to get more money in the future but now that that future event came and now the B want to say he shouldn't get it I mean if it's all if it's because of if is because of years so let's say in a situation where something definitive comes out where we know now that the suff is whether he's the son of the yam or he's the son of the Miss if it's Al then then then then it's done do we say that now he can get it back no right do a DNA test yeah correct once it's come even something definitive anything could say for sure right now that he's either the the son of the the money is lost correct he gave up right it's not it's you cannot turn now I I want to read this back in the gamar because RAB ABA says I could hold like Adine Adine only says in his case that your rights are Revisited why because now MIM of remember let's try to work it back into the gamar Apparently ABA holds of ofos and what does hold I guess holds the guy's right so let's read it back into the gamar rababa says I could hold like admine admine only said in the case of the pathways the guy could say I should get a share because I have a pathway now but why don't I don't understand why don't we tell the guy what do you mean you have a pathway now you are mayay of ever getting that pathway back didn't you give up hope of ever getting that pathway back when it was owned by four owners so you are May of it ever getting back of it of you ever getting it back I guess you have to say that since there is a possibility that would one day you know why you're not maybe Raba said you're not May in that case you know why you're not m in that case because it's possible that what it's possible that one day somebody might own the whole thing doesn't really fit in that well I mean what would RAB ABA hold RAB ABA holds that when a case is decided the person gives up gives up hope so in the case of the pathway it was owned by four people why wouldn't the guy have given up hope in case one day one person would own it so he he knows that he that he has a Tinus bar I mean you know asku you know let's say you have the four houses on your block you know what what's the likelihood of one guy buying all four and then I don't know I mean it's a little far-fetched no how about the other how what about the other way around the gar says R doesn't buy into right says I could hold even like only said Yos over the Earth why because how did we read the gamarra only by the case of the pathway where there was something definitive where we definitively tell the guy you have no rights then he's Mayes but maybe in the case of oh that may might work out in the case of the suff and the yam where the maybe the sufff realizes that bezan is not giving a definitive it's just they're giving a so then maybe he's not may I don't know I'm not sure how well this the trash fits into the gar in other words what's R AB saying I could even say like admine adman only says we revisit because the guy now has a definitive Tina but yesterday he had no tin at all so why wasn't he Mayes okay so you're ready I think now um we're going to do reban I think Reb's Mahal is uh reads better into the gamar if we could figure it out re gets into the of which is not a sug that I want to get into right now considering it's one of the more difficult suas in the basic thing you need to know about is that if grabs Trum that may or may not belong to him and he grabs it m we take it away from him so wants to know this is in the if you have one Zion say by the way do you understand my question in other words I'm I'm asking according to the that the reasoning of is why would the guy not be if presently it's owned by four people you're saying because of the remote possibility that maybe one day it will be owned by one person doesn't sound like a very likely uh outcome for the guy not to be but I don't know okay learns the grabs we take it away from him so now it's by the as a what kind of is it you know what's the um some some Falls in your chicken soup what's a big pot of chicken soup it's bottle let's say but you're eating it you're not eating it it's not there the din of B makes it that it's not there the reality changes so when the din of kak is like a din in B that it changes the reality changes even if let's say it's it belongs to ruen who uh who's trying to take it out makes it that it is the ownership of sh because he's the even though even though Hashem knows he's not the owner says he's the owner or is the let's say like this we don't know did a woman did she get married or not somebody threw her k so is she's single so we allow her to remain single does kazaka say she is single kazaka just says we don't know what to do so we're going to leave her in her status it doesn't change the reality so wants to know basically how does work does Muk change the reality or does Muk just say we're just going to say it's yours but but it doesn't mean in reality it is yours again both are is it like b b means that the iser is not there and or or is it like we're not saying you're not married but because we don't know what to do how allows us to act with the conclusion that you are not married we're not saying that's the reality in the eyes of God God may know you're not married but you know God runs this world but he doesn't run the outcome of and kazaka says we're going to treat it that you're V not married or does the kazaka does m change the reality says that is Theus between regarding says one says what happened yesterday with the mess and the ofam that you divided it that happened so I got half and you got half and the other half the of them is and it cannot be Revisited I I have a you're ready for this and I think this works much better in the where you could say okay but now either way you want to look at it I get something doesn't change the meaning yesterday you know what happened yesterday the uh deceased died the suffix says I'm his son the ofam said no you're my son so we don't know what to do so we divide it I get half and you get half now when I'm holding my half that's not the reality that I own half it's that Hashem says that under the circumstances we let each one hold on to what they're holding on to but if there's any factors changing then that could be relooked at because we never said any reality has changed we never there's no B over here it was just a the principle of allowed us to Accord oursel in a certain fashion but that could be Revisited because nobody said that's the reality never became his if it's not really his it's just that until the opposing side has a we treat it as if it's his but now that there's a that's in is that the is just what we call like a a Guiding Light in how to Accord oneself which could change if the factors change but the Mand he holds that when someone is a it becomes his even though it's not his so there is no because once he's a it is his would be a temporary reality subject to change what is a temporary real it that's subject to change According to which s according to First Accord of righta is right is it's allows us we don't we're not even getting into the reality it allows us to Accord oursel in a certain fashion now it allowed us to Accord oursel definitively L but it doesn't really speak about what the reality is as opposed to Kam K is Kaka changes the reality that it becomes his even though it's not now does this read into the gamar RAB ABA says I could hold like admine admine only said that we'll revisit your case you know when admon allows someone to revisit their case when your is but I don't understand I thought kazaka already changed the the facts so when you have a then the doesn't do that how does that read in you know I'm not sure if that reads in either will say to you that when do we say the fact stand comea that's when there's a definitive decision meaning maybe we could say like this in Ria it reads a little bit better Ria holds in general perhaps a is just a hanuk just says we're going to Accord ourself in a certain fashion maybe that's because most that's in a situation where we don't know what to do where there's a genuine suff but when it's when when we're able to say when each owner is able to say get lost maybe your share belongs by the other guy so then under those circumstances the M maybe changes the reality I'm just pointing out it seems that there are two Lum in as opposed to you have the andash understands the ldus of who learns that the LD of is M the Kaka is uh taking on a form of B so to speak where theak actually changes the reality and then cannot be Revisited so the question is really in in either lambas whether it's a or then what flexibility is there in what does it mean oh we only say under these circumstances what do you mean we only say it if there's there's if theak changes reality it changes reality what flexibility is there in the world of Kamina so here if maybe we just read briefly does want to say maybe there is some flexibility even if you want to say that the changes reality even you have to say that the cause of the iser is not removed even when the iser is in the mixture the doubt permits it at every moment and then if it ever becomes recognizable the ISA returns because the original siba in other words like this it's interesting idea look at this even though there's a concept of B let's say the the iser became recognizable again let's say we went to a a laboratory and the and the professor said here stick in this chemical and the iser will reconstitute and now you you you look in the pot of soup and you have a piece of Kaz it's back are you allowed to eat it no but what do you mean I thought the reality changed no the reality didn't change it's every moment we had a reason to change the reality but that which originally caused the iser was never removed from existence so if it ever became recognizable so too so it would resurface so that would fit well with a Tinus bar then that would fit well so that what that when do we say C is when there's no Tinus bar but if there's a Tinus bar then it's possible to to reverse that the that we're allowing when do we say comea that's when the is doesn't resurface but so to speak if the guy has a Bari it's as if the cause um the cause of our original concern has resurfaced you could say the same thing by in them because we agreed it's very unlikely one person could buy all four properties but if he truly had a path and he's buried it's possible somebody could come and remember where the path was so therefore he's not meish he's not Mish because somebody could remember where the path was somebody could come that that wasn't in town when the court case came is that I remember the P was there yeah but then even if four people own the fields and it was never sold to one person where the is that each one could push him off because that's because he doesn't remember cuz you can't prove it but once somebody but but he can hold on to that he's not okay one second says that that uh even if you want to say that the wayo works is the changes reality but even in the world of if the is ever became recognizable then it would be us it would be us he says this part's not on here mama so you want to say that's the in the of in that ABA says I could say like Adine that is even even though kak already Pas but admon wouldn't say in that case because in this case now I have a man of so now that it was sold to one person so now there's there's no Kaka here so now the it's like the is resurfaced by the way then quotes and doesn't ask our question but he he basically ask our question because the gamar says that if AI would come here's the issue the gar says by that IFI would come then you would be able to get it back without making a Kenyon so says even though the changed the reality but now that comes so uh it's like it becomes H and the is resurfaces and the ownership resurfaces and we wanted to say maybe if you have a tinas Bari also it resurfaces but he says according to the Trum that it's then Yos can never change once you're May on something that can never change maybe the idea that a changes reality it only changes the reality so long as there are no additional factors okay we have what to think about so basically we have the who learns and who learns it's through the strength of the M which is debatable whether is like or only like okay that's what I got for you today have a great day enjoy the rest of the day you've just experienced another Torah class brought to you by tor anytime.com