Daf Hashavua Iyun Sugya Daf 109b - 3 Approaches in the Rishonim in "Otherwise I"ll Return the Shtar"

okay good morning everyone we have very interesting today uh we did the gar quickly last week let's just review the mishna said on that someone who went overseas and he lost a road basically somebody had rights of Passage to an interior field he had an interior field surrounded by other field he had rights of Passage and now the road was lost so ad says look he definitely has rights of Passage but so he he goes on the shortest one the say no he either has to buy it or he has to take a helicopter but he lost it it's lost so either he has to purchase a new one or he has to take a helicopter so says ad is saying very good the guy definitely own rights of Passage let him at least have the minimal right of passage soar says the case is he surrounded by four different people each one says now get lost get lost the other guy uh you had writes a passage with the other one your right the p with the other one SAR says if that's the case why does Adine tell say that he tells the guy uh why does admine say that he he has rights to minimal passage why can't each one push off push off the guy so gamar says that if it's four different people whether they bought it from four people or whether they bought it from one person then definitely they could push him off and say go get rights of Passage elsewhere however we're talking about a case where one buyer bought it from four buyers so originally the four buyers had the rights to push him off now the one buyer he could tell look you owe me a place to walk through so ad says very simply that the uh owner of the Interior field says I definitely have rights of Passage the hold no say look the owner of the field says to the guy if you keep quiet good and if you don't keep quiet meaning if you keep quiet and I'll let you I'll sell it to you for a good price good otherwise I will return the star to the original owners and then you won't be able to get anything so if you want rights of Passage I will reverse my purchase from the four buyers they will then have four fields and they'll they'll push you away so that's the logic we're talking about one owner who bought from four different owners so ad says look you could tell the one owner I ow I own rights a passage and the say no the say that the one owner could say either keep quiet and buy it off me for a decent price otherwise I'll reverse my my purchase and they will be able to push you off there are three m in the to understand what the argument of this buyer is in saying I can return the purchase reverse the P purchase either be quiet either be quiet or I will reverse the purchase Rashi learns it's a threat Rashi says like this the L of Rashi is you see where this my icon is if you're quiet be quiet and what does that mean if you're quiet be quiet and either be quiet be quiet and I will I will give it to you for a cheap price I will give it to you for cheap price when you buy the field from meus if you're quiet be quiet and I'll give it to you for a cheap price when you buy it from me otherwise if you don't want to pay me a good price or uh if you don't want to pay me a reduced price I'll reverse it and you'll have to pay a full price so according to according to Rashi this is just a threat this is just a threat this is the again the case is one buyer bought it from four buyers and this is basically just a threat isn't he acknowledging by the threat that he actually does owe him something actually because I'm I'm threatening you that I'm going to go give it to the other four he's saying yeah you're right to do that because he knows he has to give them good good he's basically definitely very guilty over here or at least he's he's acknowledging look in this surrounding field that I own alone you definitely have rights of Passage and you're claiming it from me so I'm letting you know either be quiet and buy it off me I'll give you reduced fide otherwise you're going to have to pay full price so you're saying is he acknowledging well he may just be acknowledging what the claim is the interior field is claiming I definitely have rights of Passage so saying listen either keep your mouth closed and buy it off me for a reduced price or you're going to have to pay full price when I when I uh when I reverse it Rashi learning it's a threat it's a threat to get the guy to pay a reduced price otherwise because you're saying otherwise you reverse it and you'll pay him a full price let's contrast it to the way the rush learns the rush learns that this is not just a threat there's a den that when in monetary law the ability to be able to do something is like you did it already so this is not a threat buy it for me for cheap it's not don't buy it for me for cheap you must buy this off me for full price because since I can reverse it it is as if I did reverse it says the rush the rush says someone who lost a road in one by one that comes from the he should buy a road for 100 Mana or FL or Orly in the air right that's the gar thear says somebody who lost a road and the case is one person bought from four people he either has to pay 100 or fly not like rash explained either bu and I'll give you a cheap price I guess the Russia's question is the mission doesn't say you pay a cheap price the mission says you pay 100 money 100 money is a full price here look in the you know who wrote Thea I think I think the to Y is a commentary on the rush he says if the mishna says you pay 100 m Mas that's like the seller once like the seller once so not like Rashi learns either keep your mouth closed and buy it for a reduced price no keep your mouth closed and pay full price why anything someone could claim we considered as if it was already done this way over here even if he doesn't claim be quiet we'll claim it for him we will rule this way they all enter in the place of the owners I'm not sure what that that line is saying the way the rush learns is that any claim that someone has the ability to make will be considered as if he did it so it's not a threat oh if you don't give me a cheap price I'll make you pay full it's I could reverse it therefore I have that right anything I could do I have that right not going to be like he giving him a tremendous deal because it's as if already the previous owners already have it and he's giving him a reduced price no according to the rush I'm not giving you a reduced price I'm making you pay in full and the reason I can make you pay in full cuz since I could reverse it and then you would never get the field the the road it's considered as if it was reversed already and you can't get the road unless you pay full Rashi learns it's a threat pal either give me a reduced price or I'm threatening you that I could reverse this whole thing and then you will have to pay a full price that's how Lear the rush learns since I have the ability to reverse it it's as if I did and therefore you must give me a full price and the rush says that that's mash and the mishna because the mishna says or give me a 100 100 implies a full price has a different uh take on this the learns the doesn't mean otherwise I'll return it he says if you want to leave it be and give up your passage and not claim anything great otherwise I will return thear to the owner since since that if he would retract I would not you would not be able to um gain anything in in uh D meaning since if I would retract you wouldn't be able to get password now also even though you're not retracting even though I'm not retracting here's here's a clincher what does the first guy sell to the second guy whatever Merit he has but the is saying differently than the rush the rush says any claim I could make it's like I did it says like this when four owners owned it they not only own the field they also own the ability to tell the guy scram get lost you don't have rights of Passage right originally when the four owners owned it part of their ownership was their ability to say to the guy hey pal you don't have rights of Passage I'll push you off to the next guy so now when the buyer boarded from all four he's buying that right to be able to tell the guy scram scadoodle you can't you don't have rights of Passage he bought that right La daa it's because he says I could revert it back to the four original buyers what that means is since he bought it from four buyers he re he acquires whatever rights those original buyers had and the original buyers own the right to tell the guy you don't have rights of Passage so now the new buyer owns that right to tell the guy you don't have rights of Passage can we they only have that right as individuals not as a group as individuals they have that right to tell this grp but as a group now with one owner that that that right disappeared uh so Mike is asking very good did those four original owners really have the right to tell the guy to to scram it's only they did be they did individually but they didn't did they but even as a group could they could could the guy have gone to the four of them as a group and say hey Mr group group here one of you guys owes it to me you guys decide and let me know who's going to give it they could say go get lost we're not a group so you're saying well that's only because you're not a group but this guy is a group so he can't even them you're saying if they would have been a group they wouldn't own that right right that's what you ask that these four individuals if they would have been a group they didn't own that right so now that he is a group he should also not own that right so that's what I want to end off with there's a uh famous question of theb and I think it's very similar to what Mike is asking if it's not Mish exactly what he's asking let me let me say it over I wasn't 100% sure but now that the way you asked it I think this is I think this is what his question is then look where my icon is um okay his question is like this could you steal land no if you steal land it's always in the domain of the owner among these four Fields is land that does not belong to whoever's occupying it so question this one buyer does he have land that doesn't belong to him right the one the current buy the current occupier does he have land here that doesn't belong to him yeah there's land here that definitely belongs to someone else is that true though I'm not so sure about that maybe that someone else lost it already when it was owned by four owners okay let's see how who cares that the one buyer bought the rights from the seller let's like this bought animals from come and say look one of these fields one of these animals is stolen but we don't know which one it got mixed up before yes so there's a buyer who bought many animals and come and say one of these animals do they mean one of the animals that you bought or St one of the animals in your pen is stolen sounds like one of the animals here is stolen so he definitely has to uh return it would he not be to return it something that doesn't belong to him is mixed in his own is that the case over here is this one owner is he in possession of something that doesn't belong to him why can't we argue that since when four owners owned it they had the right to tell the guy scram then they own the right to tell the guy scram so when they sold it to the one guy he doesn't have any land here that doesn't belong to him in the uh booklet here they bring from shim that anyone who as a it's not a sa it's a d that it's yours so the so the that since they could say scram their this this passageway the is in the D I guess the question is I guess the question is like this the four buyers didn't own the road they didn't own the D it's just they don't have to give it to the guy they never owned it they just didn't have to give it to him cuz they could say each one could push him off so the question is then how can this one owner def hold on to something that doesn't belong to him so is saying well the it's no it's not just it's not that they could just tell the guy scram once they have the right to say to the guy scram that din grants them ownership over it and therefore that ownership is transferable mean don't view it that they could when you could say to a guy get lost scram you can't prove it belongs to you that's not just a a that's how you could act that's your Hana that you could have that you could tell the guy scram it's much more than that it's more than a Han hogo that you could have it is literally therefore you own you get ownership like gives you definitive ownership over it okay so today we learned three MIM in the uh gamar that what does it mean that the one owner could say either be if you want to be quiet be quiet otherwise I'll return it Rashi says it's a threat to get a discounted price the rash says since you could say it it's like you said it and says that's just a way of saying that since the four guys could have pushed you off I acquire that right the Aus and Mike was asking well but they didn't really own it it's just each one individually could push him off but now he owns it as a as a group so he Lo he shouldn't have that right and the answer we tried to give give was if each one could push him off that's not just something they could do that grants them a bilus over it and that's transferable yeah okay everyone that's all we got today that right doesn't resurrect basically it's it dies off and that doesn't come back to life what there's one owner what he saying the four owners their their ability to say go get lost is not just something they could say is an ownership over the the path that they each have that they have and that ownership they could transfer they could transfer the ownership even though the reason for the ownership perhaps doesn't apply but it's an ownership they have once they own it they could transfer it and it won't come back to life when there's one what do you mean what what should come back to life I'm saying that they was basically they were able to kill off that fact that there wasn't actually there was a path but since they can all say scram it's like they they killed off that right the ability to say scram makes them the owners makes them the but and it doesn't come back to life for say that right doesn't come back to life when it's one owner I would say maybe it comes back to life when there's one owner wom come back to you mean they lose it not come back mean they lose it doesn't come back I'm saying it doesn't come back to life when there's one owner it's gone you're never going to have that right ever again the the the right of the the guy who has passage right like he can never claim that cuz he lost owner he lost ownership he lost from from the Lo of the that that the person still has a claim according to say that that it's lost right so then should say that you know it should be that he has no he has no right to to the passage at all the that he has some sort of right to you have a right but you have to pay a large sum according to it's gone it's like it's like there was a jail it's not his anymore so he would read the mishna either he pays full price right Rashi um learns he could it's basically a way of uh giving him a cheaper price but let's say according to the rush or the Sha you basically say he's got to pay whatever it costs on the market or or lots of luck getting there I guess that's the way the mishna is saying you got to you got to buy it as if uh you were buying this on the market in the first instance okay R have a good good day and uh probably I guess we'll do Monday Tuesday that's so Monday Tuesday this week is um is Ku