Corporations & Banks Lending with Ribbis Rav Mordechai Willig

complicated. They're two different p different realities which merge into one. Both of them have been spoken about by my illustrious colleagues. I just want to try to give a summation came to debunk the theory that she and there's no problem of ribbus at all whatsoever and the marshag try to talk about that in full agreement that we can discuss but then it's mut seems to me impossible but it's also a question of not so much the fact that corporation that has limit limited liability that mixes into the question of a corporation that's owned primarily by goim that's most of the situation that we deal with are in that category and the two things sort of get mixed in together we'll try to go we won't finish it today there's always the next time so what sim am I up to so I'm still in some way lagging behind in but I will go quickly to so we'll jump we'll go do we'll jump back in simmon He's going on the Ramo says discussing a particular question of etc etc somehow ribbus suits as a toss but ribbon we know it's the words of the rabbi Hilosibus oh has our first whiff of some kind of a partnership a plain Jew and which would be permissible for the but prohibited for the the plain presumably the plain Jewal he can take whatever ribbus he's entitled to. Other words, there's two kinds of ribbers coming here. One is at the risk and one is avak will pin the ribbis on the and we'll pin we'll attribute is a better word to use. will attribute the legitimate that I can take to the risk to me so I don't lose anything why everyone knows about brea I'm not going to tell you what braer means usually we translate braer as retroactive qualification that's one way to cl to translate it but then he says I have them here. So I brought a whole bunch of but we'll open up as many we have time for this bag as we begin. Fine. That's item number one. The bra plays a role in these kind of situations. Item number two is the base. What happens over here? says situation over here. Even though what's happening in real life is that Goya is giving money to a Jew, but it doesn't matter. It's ribbut. We'll get to these these details as we go. These are my two original sources. My main focus of today's Shia is Bris Yehuda who says many things but most of them burisa. You have to go look up the sources. That's what I did. Looked up the sources in British Yehuda. What's he talking about bank? See you understand very well. Ready to talk about and a bank. two things we're talking about already mixed into the first three words in this sif tzion and there's obviously a very lengthy footnote which is the topic the main topic of today's kabur and we'll go slow it all started more than 100 years earlier when they had these kind of He'll try to bring Thomas. He's terrific. There's no one like him. Yehuda is the first is the kids was already mentioned by previous finished. You can't invest in it. You can't take from it. You can't give to it. Nothing. Nothing. Why? He quoted he's going to lose and says he already right. No fine skipping a little bit now for now. is contemporary. I'm not rashy now with this. I can't go into that now. No, right. Period. And so so far we got the basics good. At the end of the cha he asked he asked of of it was one of the most popular by a living author ever. It was printed so many times in his lifetime says do me a favor. When you print it next time change your mind. He did not change his mind. He printed it many times more with the same is which see me makes perfect sense. makes perfect sense. So these are the two progra protagonists whose words have been quoted in previous kaburas and I want to talk about it a little bit more. We have different people who have different things to say. Let's discuss just an as an initial point the the point that the schol make based on it starts with auh so the may ask what do you mean starts with this money belonged to a yid before the yid got involved with the bank it was yishelt what it means said it's not bo the money didn't come into the world immac immaculate conception as part of a corporation it belonged to to yank uncle so he doesn't understand the words what's the of the m think about is right or wrong it's the ifra doesn't make any sense this is the kasha against the shame so about this I saw again the maramakas I'm having just about all of them came from the brisa in this footnote I'll read you as much as I can as time allows Oh, there's a s called David who was a contemporary of the Isdolan apparently a little bit later. He says he has this he call the same question is because this has to do with as well right they brought things for what do they do? Yeah. And the surprise. No problem. means after you split something up, can you say, "I'm taking this part. You're taking that part." Arbitrarily, they didn't split anything up yet. They're still partners. They're still making bucks on this corporation. What are you talking about? That's alfurther than that. talks about the ribb it's a bigger sh says a big tellers whatever they he says says, "Yeah, okay. Fine." Two questions he has. Number one, that's a question already said before. That was an oimble. But then he says, "No. What do you mean? Nothing to do with there. The Isa came right there. It's a different story here. The here the Isaac comes before the came before the Isa. What are you talking about? This is this kasha in Oz. So to answer this kasha first, there are many kashas over here. I want to answer this kasha first. This goes back to to So there was no nothing to talk about. No, it's okay. We're going to answer that question. Why? Listen to this. When you put your money into this group, this corporation, if he's selling his dollars, his whatever he's giving in to this partnership, That's not in those days. They were literally coins or or or dollar bills, whatever bills they had in Europe. So, I put in $100 into this corporation that has, I don't know, has $900. So, now everything's thrown into one big pile and I sold you my 100, you sold me back your 900. That's what happened. It's a it's a sale from one to the other. And therefore therefore he says right we can say derive from if we have a chance we'll get to it. Say so this kind of situation and explains I like that it's not that's how he answers this kasha. Okay, this kasha we can answer. We can answer but the first kasha is a bombshell kasha. What kind of braer they they're still maintaining their full partnership. They're making the they're dividing up the the prophets. What kind of bra? So this question was already asked by the maramshik. simul this the first paragraph after the the opening Tomra he said like this he quotes from the he's the he says as follows what he says No. Right. If they divide it maybe, but right now what kind of everyone is involved and they're still and they're still doing business together. So what kind of bra? This is his kasha. This is Kasha. He doesn't understand Brea at all. H the problem is what about case? There was also no Kaluka. There still they're still in the in the cor this quote partnership together. Who's a partnership? Aid Yankl and still talks about Brea. And not only does he say Brea himself, but he even quotes a source am Marit. So we I brought the marit too. Try to bring as many thrum as I can. Okay. Alfa in this uh chuva. Am I right? It talks about something along these lines and he wants to suggest a concept of brea. Now the question becomes how can there be bra that the kash of the maram shik and of the of the um seems to insurmountable insurmountable. Oh but I found someone else has a kashi. You have a relative here. The minasim put all the swarm in. Why not? Where's the minasp? Oh, here it is. This is in sim kufzon. Let's say so what do you mean? So the money was lent to the Jews and Jews were lent to the It's a sha. So he doesn't understand. He said what exactly did the marit say? We don't we haven't they're all asking the same kasha but you know the marit is the marit. So we have to see if we can find out what exactly he said. Got to try to find out where he said it and we'll see. Didn't not write down the dearit. I can't find it this minute. We'll find it later. Okay. When I Let's go further. Oh. So, it could be that what's the what's the vega talking about to defend his his position? There's an Isa ribbis, right? told me was spoken on previous you're over when you take the money you take the money that's when you're over is saying when you take the money we'll say so I'll take money from the and will take the money from the avak but we're talking about a situation where there is a dissa where the seats itself is already a problem before you even take a penny. So that would be a little bit a little bit different. Okay, perhaps perhaps oh we should add it was spoken also previous could be there is no more ribbus for us because it's all done with checks and accord might be enu we spoke about before. So maybe you put all the coolers together you perhaps have have something Perhaps perhaps maybe maybe then I found a sheet which I was shocked to find. I don't know why I'd never heard of this before and the bign quoted by I read it to you the alf the same problem the same problem. Oh, let's say it belongs the bash and maybe the ro is already goim he wants the follow can you tap this even if they're two Jews should be All right. Here. There's no re no. All right. So, if you don't like that, it's too much for you. At least it'll be with the Why? Because in all those cases, if you look it up, Okay. And we never heard of this. So the post even if the other partner is a guy and why didn't the say ribbis by other found says Yeah, etc. So the iron says etc. You see you it's not his who cares still. So therefore the post can never mention anything about this finished and it goes further than that either. He'll tell me that is which is arguable based upon the Gabbor but still dependent of you asking period you could argue if it's in some cases you say yes but then he goes to Rashi says go You can't cut the sheep in half. Therefore, he knocks the whole thing out. I have no he tried. He tried knocks it all out. I did see also quoted in the pursuit, I believe. Theik the le writes over here it's in sim kuf alf I think it's uh subset to test he said like this he knows about the rashi he knows the rashi no when rashi say that Foreign speech. Foreign speech. Foreign speech. have and that's so he's suggesting this will be a defense of that the suggested but he rejected it based upon the rashi says that so there's still an opinion out there I'm not saying we should follow it there's an opinion out there that guy at least guy first he want to say even to yen then he's not but according to this guy even the majority is Jewish would still make it okay according to this opinion just as new to me this stuff but it's giving you the full range even if all Jews nothing to do with with the with uh a limited liability nothing do with that the new he doesn't like it too much with two Jews he likes it better with two go with a Jew and a had a problem with the rashi. He takes care of a problem with the rashi potentially. So we have a possibility found over here infam could also work for ro I'm sorry would work also with rogue gun correct correct so I want to show you the marit first and read the words of the marit He quotes Mishnas about about Brea. Yeah. Back and [Music] forth. Some say there's a sashita like that. So, most of the Right. This sounds like very much like like a he told you to look in the in the knows about this marit the same place. doesn't understand why why the intermediary who was the one who was in the bank he's doing it that's not a prop it's not a propag so it could be uh finished. Either No. What's the case? It's not clear what the's case and says, "Oh, that's but that's the case in our case about the bank. to whom and how much they should charge even. How do you like that? He wants to suggest that although the Taz is right and the is right to he limits the case drastically to a case in which the person told him lend it to him at this rate of ribbis. Oh, that's ribbut even though it's a involved. But if in this case of the bank, we don't know to whom, we don't know how much. So would not necessarily be ribbut the bon could say yes and that and the rabbi king of calling that the marit fine. So this this is what the minimum says. It's interesting. The bris Yahoo does this lengthy footnote. I've told you I'm starting it, but for those who want to check up on me starts at the very bottom of page B the bottom line and this goes all the way to page. It's talking about a footnote that lasts basically uh five pages something like that. after the etc etc whole story. What do you mean? I put it in the in that company to lend out a ribbis. I thought that kasha is no cash. It's true to ribbis. I didn't say to to lend it. You tell the bank to lend the money to lend the money to go. Oh, I didn't say how much to to charge. So, I don't see why this parenthesis kash over here in page towards the end of this footnote is so powerful. I thought there's a thought we could give an answer to that question. That's what I thought. That's what I thought. Now the IRosha by the same author. I brought him in here somewhere. Give me a second. Try to find it. He discusses the same issue. Here it is. End of bank. One bank lends from another bank. Why? In other words, if I have money in a bank and the bank lends out Baribis, so I don't know what they're doing. If I borrow from the bank, I know what I'm doing. See the difference? That's what the says. I don't know what they're doing. I know what I'm doing. The very last line. This is a long story. This is what the theos comes up with at the end. Okay. group especially there's no iss on the on the lo okay fine that's what he says the ma is not over the is not over either now we come back to the that I had before again this beautiful safer o listen to this what was a k we asked before what kind of braer They're still partners. That's the way he phrase the question. Whoa, that's quite a quite a big kish. Where'd he get it from? Where'd he get it from? What's he driving at? What's he driving at? because he quotes a nivas. The nivas is not the first one to quote the nivas. I mean I don't know who quoted in this who was first Watch. How do you like that? He's basing himself on that nivis just like we say it is a bit in the east which is totally the moment even at the moment we don't say barov so too with respect to to brea so respect to brea that's what he says whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa even though normally we would never say brea such a case for the reasons we gave earlier so we had for let's open it again. The maramshik the maramshik said what kind of braer over here is they're still partners says it's follow again no that's when doesn't apply over Yeah. Emma gives money etc etc. He's saying there's no prayer is not shy over here. The question would be how can it be even if it's the raon. So you also quote the same almost the same lion from the maram mahash maharam you know maram is a big but not over here sim what do you do that credita he added a word credit you know we there's one English word that we use right credit yeah and his one And the one who runs it is a is a ye called. Yeah. Yeah. What do you say? He quoted another cafer and he had the shik based upon the yont didn't quote who was his rebi he said he quoted bal but I have can yeah so therefore it's no good there's no doesn't like it this is important to know there's no over here all right but he says maybe there's a because it's you say the iser is treated differently than than the moment. I don't know. That's what he says. That's what he suggests. Most say not at all. Okay. But suggest we do say still hard to understand. It's hard to understand. Why should we say such a thing when you want to say it's okay with the one thing? Why should it apply to to bra? No bra. Oh, so here the marsham quotes shed. I want to bring the sh I never heard of the saddic but I found it in the library and it's important to see what he says and it's important to see if some of these kulas that have thrown around have any relevance bis because things have changed both in terms of the of the today about the robe and if we ever get today to the corporations probably won't get there things have also changed this is Watch and you were m someone was mate I don't understand why it's all going to be a question of what this company is like and that's going to be ti that's what ties in the majority party to the question of a corporation. There are people who are in charge and you borrow from those experts of something or other. Yeah. But there it's only their responsibility. So yeah, I bet listen to this now. The moment called a parish. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. In my opinion, the system in that how many what years ago is this? Laoros out of re me alf. 1881. You know why the banks were then? The imamish had money. So in other words, you take a bill out of the out of the bank and you take it home. Oh, says it's sh the bill you took called the parish parish. You took the guy's bill chase man doesn't work that way. So you know somebody said that I think things just don't apply at all nowadays if they're talking about a a different reality. Why would it apply less if it's all imaginary now? Why can't they imagine that it's somebody else's money? I don't think you can do that. They say they called the purse by imagination. You know you have to actually take something out. That's what I think. That's what I think. It's interesting here in the British Yehuda he quotes this in the parenthesis it's here somewhere here parenthesis It was also before he even took a before he took a bill out was already then he says a terrorist. Okay. But why didn't he say Rabbi Boyd that doesn't apply nowadays? He was he was living in in in Sanhedria uh 50 years ago when he's writing these books. They didn't take dollars out of the bank even in primitive relatively primitive Sanhedria compared to highcale Manhattan. They weren't taking skull them out with the of the hands. It was it was I was with checks and all kinds of other. So I don't know why he didn't make that comment, but that's what he says in the in the parenthesis. Okay. Okay, fine. Now then he quotes something amazing. This goes to the very bottom of this page. Tuf tufris bris a lagon of a elberg. We know about Rab Elberg from here. Maybe it's his father. Maybe his uncle. I just don't know. He says look This is this is leading us already into the problem which we have to tackle now next time. Yeah. So who owns it? Who owns it? We'll see soon that he was preceded by all this and we'll get to that. And he says and he can say and a couple of other so I want to tell you a little bit what he said it's important I have the whole thing here it was printed out for me many pages you know the problem with this is it was printed like in many this tail Tapio was a periodical and this spans a whole year. I think there could be it's in I think eight or nine different teltopioses but they printed it out for me the whole thing. I try to give you a few things to look at. I'll give you the sip carton. Here he says the same we saw before. This is an obe is referring to a case you told him to who to give it and how much to charge ribbis. That's the case. But over here no just give it to the bank. It's different. That's your base. more relevant to the press discussion is in here in he quotes the the the also quotes and listen to what he says these great rabbis They they lack the the the the technical expertise to know what a bank is. That's why they asked, "What is a bank?" He's going to say what a bank is. What's a bank? Watch. And this is also written in 1909. So I don't know how primitive things were in 1909 in Hungary. In other words, they're, you know, they're taking a chance and they're not covered. You know, it is like like how all the B they go boast at the end. They go they go break at the end because they they don't have all the money like the Ponzi schemes, but not quite Ponzi, but they don't have all the money there. Watch. Yeah. Should call them. the big bank say we'll go here. So they they're borrowing and they're they're lending all based on the money which is coming from the big banks as it says in Maria. after they divided it. That's what he's saying. Those who said there's no before, they assumed that all the dollars were in the in the kitty and we now want to we say, okay, close your eyes. The you took out Goyisha money. The took out Yiddisha money. That's assuming all the money is in the kitty. No, that's not how banks work. Not all the money's in the kitty. The money's in the Chase Manhattan bank. And I was like, the Goyasha Bank. That's where the money really is. And they're they're they're playing on margins that they're going to be able to make money and and not lose lose everything. That's what he says. Now, this is something which is fascinating. Does it apply nowadays? No. No. I don't think it applies nowadays at all. At all. He writes over here that this is the lash that are being used over here. He says as follows. He says they they depends upon that's what he says and he writes it's not a regular depends upon bra doesn't apply nowadays seems to me but now we have one more thing I think I'm going to have to just cut my kaburu a little bit short. I can't I want to get into the corporations but I can't get too much on the corporations. This I have to tell you right now because otherwise I'm leaving it too much hanging. There's a beautiful shalom ribbis and he tackles this issue. This is spoken about in previous kaburas as well. KF I and Gimmel Civ test. Watch. He quotes which he didn't talk about yet. to a bank from a bank that's distinction but then he says this fall these are the words I'm quoting from o me the post can hold there's no but if makes this distinction between. You have a voting rights have no voting rights. of the end. [Music] Who said that? The Maram Shik said that the Marshik said I think something a little similar in one of his theamik claims it's true exactly the claims that what happens over here he says what really happens what really happens I have to know what exactly is what's the story of the Malvin, they're not the owners. They're not the owners. They're like Malvin. So his remember he's a get this is a sofa. The marshag is a of the maramik. So the marsh is I have his tr here too. He's got to find it somewhere in here. He has the which everybody asks. Everybody [Applause] Who does it belong to? Who does it belong to? Belongs to nobody. So I don't want to talk about time. So the arise has a ch. We have his chums here. We'll get it for the next. You know what he says? Belongs to the corporation. He believes that the corporation is a legitimate entity in he has proofs and proofs and proofs and I thought it's just not correct. We can't make something like this up. Who ever heard anything? But that's his answer to this question. However, I believe the Maram Shik didn't know about Raasha and he knew about the Marshag's Kasha. I think is what he what he held. I can relate to Raosha. what Ramsha really held. I should give a little a little comic attraction just to make it interesting. In Romesh's original cha, he writes, "Yeah, we know they have these people, they start corporations and the yen, they they they go into it and the originators keep the majority for themselves. So they are the they are the bim and everyone else is just not really an owner." That's what the maramshik meant. He assumed as I read it to you, Maovva, they were Goyes originators. Rockefeller started a bank and the wanted to get a piece of the action. So they bought in. So he assuming they're only lending and borrowing, but it's really all owned by Rockefeller, the original Rockefeller. So black asked a question when Rockefeller died. So now who owns it? So I think you said the Yam own it. But uh which is probably what the maram shik holds that way that it's own the original own now what the problem is going to be what if the facts changed when the facts changed when they founded it from the very beginning they founded it there was no original goes owner didn't exist oh why am I saying that because I'm just we'll have to talk about it more m next time rais unions credit unions and they say the musha is maka by credit unions. How can it be? Why is a credit union any different than than uh than a bank? So, he explains, I think, pretty cogently what he thinks. The reason he thinks that there's a difference, I think he has credit unions and look up the the uh credit union. Yeah. So what's the story? What did Masha say? What did he say? So he said you know as pointed out the original ch of quotes is about I have no da nothing to do with anything I don't want to be a bim yeah nothing it's nothing from it's a different I from the bruda they made bris no difference if you have a day have no it's a difference either it's all or it's all he says hold like the even one of a thousand to be a problem he has a if there many right and they sell shares so there's a there's a what does that mean there's a bless Malaya at first glance as a closed company not a public company it's a privately held company. Then they start selling shares. Those with whom they sell shares have no da because the ro that's where ma writes the bim kept the ro for themselves. They should be able to be to be total burim. You don't have to care about the balance. So then I'm not giving you a partnership. I'm just giving you future prophets. I have a voting right. But the the bank was bank. I'm not sure if that's true. That's how he's saying it's it's a facts there. There it's they're all original owners and those post not because of no which he didn't like so much says in the next paragraph even one of everybody you have to worry about credit unions credit unions could be was credit unions. Now, there were those who claimed it was a Jewish credit union. I saw Yeshua and they just can't believe that. That's that's not credible. Jew federal credit be most Jews. No one has a majority. No one individual, no one group or founders. So therefore should come out should be also page n in the new edition of just giving you heads up. So now I just want to conclude with what I think shot over here is as follows. Back to nasal page and he gets prophets. And this is saying unbelievable. Literally unbelievable. Torah what? What an entirely Jewish corporation? Can't be. At the end he says, "Yeah, we borrow from B to the Gisha banks." Even though there's some some What do I mean? What does this ballots grow mean? There's not a elashian terminology. He wasn't that kind of a pik. He had some kind of aic framework to explain what it means balis. I'm going to give you my suggestion. My suggestion have no you don't control it. We have a rule. What's the rule? The rule is there's a concept called that's a concept. It belongs to me but you stole it from me. So although it still belongs to me, I have no control over it. is construct and I believe what he's saying over here I think what he's saying I'm trying to say what he's saying that if it's there's no way which is it could be explained but maybe next time and more than that the actions being done by the conglomerate if I have no control over what they're doing do not relate to me not the shabas doesn't relate to me not But doesn't relate to me. However, however, if I have voting rights, he's make only if the majority is Why is that? So, I'll explain to you why it's so if the majority is Jewish, I myself have nothing to say. I a tiny bit. But if all the Jews would get together and constitute a majority, we'd be able to do what we wanted to do. This reminds me of in what am I in Evanz the Gar tells us that if someone stole they nei neither of them the gel nor the will be what happens if the will get together And the side we know let's make it hectish. All right. You know I stole. You were a victim. Let's put it aside. We'll give it to and says it works as it works. It works. Now should it work or shouldn't it work? That's says whether should work or not it depends. It's a famous mus at the beginning of fourth pabalamor and the ram what's the bashus balamora said it's not in your control so once I agree to give it back to you so then you can be mocknet right away I agree to give it back to you I still have it in my jaw I'll give it to you give me 10 minutes I'll go get it give it to you ramban says no ramban says it's not just a matter of the it's a if it's control and the claims that this would only be true according to the valor and would not be true according to the opinion of the Ramb okay perhaps that's my understanding of what balis means and there's much more to say but I already spoke an hour my next term whatever it's going to be I want to talk about corporations and why I think that black is 100% right there's no mush I don't I I do not understand whether it's I want to talk about that because maybe it's only the maybe maybe could but that's obviously what we say next time we'll connect to this time and this time connect to next time but I like to speak for more than for one hour so we'll