Commitment and Conversion: From Har Sinai to Modern Gerut | Rabbi Jeremy Perlow | May 13 2026

All right, good morning. I want to start today first of all by thanking our sheer sponsors. The Wednesday morning baby program inavia is dedicated for the 2026 academic year Benavid and Lim Bram Strauss and Morai Benosha and Rael Bio Marcus Zonamra parents of Judy and Marcus. Thank you for sponsoring today's shar. What I want to do today is I want to talk about a topic which for me is very personal. It's very meaningful. Uh I've dealt with this a lot and it's something I feel a very strong connection to. Um and that is the topic of girus conversion. Now for those who know those of you in the room who know my me a little bit better might know that I have six adopted siblings from Ethiopia and when they first came to the United States where I grew up, they were not Jewish. They're not Jewish. Everyone always asks, "So, Ethiopia? Maybe they're a Jewish." When they came, they were not Jewish. Um, and part of the reason my parents when they chose to adopt from Ethiopia was they thought it was something very important that they should have uh obviously want to help out and there's a big need in Ethiopia. But in addition, in terms of the question whether they should adopt Jewish or not Jewish, there was there was always this concern that maybe if they adopted someone who was already Jewish that people would begin to question their authenticity. And that was something my parents didn't want to deal with. They didn't want to have to have that struggle for whoever they were adopting. They didn't want to have them go through that in our community and they chose to actually adopt non-Jewish and have them go through a conversion. Now, I've dealt with converts and converts in many different ways. One of which is my siblings on a very personal level. But in addition, when I was a of a show in Stonybrook before we made Aliyah, so you'd be surprised how many students there wanted to come specifically to Stonybrook, they wanted to come to our show and they were not Jewish. And over time a lot of them wanted to convert and I had many many meetings with students who wanted to convert and it was a very interesting thing for me to see. I was shocked by how many students had approached me and come to me and they really wanted they were seemed to be very sincere. In terms of how many of those students made it to the finish line unfortunately or fortunately we'll see you soon. Uh it was far far fewer. I think of the many I think maybe 20 students who came to me 15 students a wild number. Um I think only two made it to the finish line. >> Um one of which just had her gears about a month ago. We're very proud of her. Um so that being the case, the question I want to address today, one of the big questions I want to address today. Are we making the bar too high? You know, as we as you look at as a convert, we know one of the requirements in order to be able to convert is you have to accept upon yourself all 613 meets folks and you have to be willing and ready to perform them. So if someone says, well, I want to convert, I'm just not going to do this one thing. So what do you say? Good for conversion or bad conversion? So generally we assume it doesn't work. You can't convert such a person, right? We're not allowed to convert such an individual. And yet if you look around at Jews in even this room, we don't all keep the mitzvot. We're not all perfect. We don't all have 100% uh performance rates. So how is it that for the non for the non-Jews who want to convert, we make the bar so high? Is that we being unfair perhaps? And this is a question I've thought about a lot and I get I just have many discussions with this with different students over the years. And I think as we're going to see there's a precedent for it. Uh and we have to just see whether that precedent is correct. And that's what I want to go through today. If you look at the very first source on the source sheet, we're going to talk today about one of the uh famous converts, one of the first converts. Uh this is not the first convert in Jewish history, but one of the first famous converts and that is Root. You know, we read Rude on Shàuot Root had a tremendous dedication. She wanted so badly to become Jewish. And she says to Naomi, Ruth, Root says to Naomi, please move away. and abandon me. I'm not leaving you. Wherever you go, I will go. Wherever you lie, I will lie. Your nation is my nation. And your God is my God. And she continues, "Even where you're going to die, I will die. That's where I will be buried. only death will will separate between you and I. So it's very interesting you see here a great example of Ruth's tremendous dedication how much she wanted so badly to convert and Rashi tells us you see something very interesting why is she fighting Naomi so hard you read the text it doesn't say that Naomi said anything she says Rashi it must be that there's a conversation going on behind the scenes what is happening here between roots root's words and the next words of root right what was happening exactly that caused root to be so forceful so determined he says actually You see here that source two convert who wants to convert. We tell them some of the punishments. We tell them some of the trials and tri tribulations that they're going to face. If they're going to return, let them return. From root's words from root's words, we learn that that which Naomi told her. Meaning root said, "I'm determined to convert." Naomi says, "You don't understand. Jewish people, we suffer a lot of anti-semitism. We have a lot of difficulties. We have a lot of hardships. It's not easy. There's 613 mitzvot." And even she told her at the very end if you jump down to the end of the paragraph it says she even told her to the extent of about the four death penalties. She told her about that's why she had to say I don't care I'm going to do it anyways. She told about the worst of the worst and yet root had this tremendous conviction that she wanted so badly to become a Jew. So what we see from this I think is something very important. The precedent that we have in Kazal from one of the first examples of converts in Jewish history tells us that we have to be willing to push away people want to convert to tell them it's difficult to warn them that's step one and I think this is something I think many of us are familiar with and again we have a presence in for this but to what extent we have to push them away to what extent we have to make it difficult for them perhaps we're being a little bit too harsh perhaps we're being a little bit too rough I know one one man who converted. He was Italian and uh he told me that his process of girus took years and years and years and the be wanted to push it off even more. They were pushing it off. They wanted to make sure that he really knew about all the mitzvot. Is that correct? Are we really doing the right thing when we do that? So we know that all of us, every single one of us went through a conversion process. What was our conversion process as Jews? When did that happen? >> Harina Harena. Harina. We all went through a girus process. And in fact, the source for the laws of conversion stems from our original process of turning into Girim. Our original process of going to become Jewish describes source three just like you experienced the says. So too that's the process that every single G needs to go through. Just like you, your forefathers. Just as your forefathers only enter the covenant through a brisa ducking in the mikvah. And what's that reference to? Who knows? >> Corban. Bringing a corban. >> Very good. Corban. We have to have a corban, right? The blood. So to you when you convert you have to go through all three of these processes. Now obviously today we can't do that right we don't have a corbanote today we don't have the opportunity to offer corbanote so if someone wants to convert today right seemingly they shouldn't be allowed so says the drop later after the lips if that's the case we would see from this today perhaps today we should not accept converts in light of the fact that we don't have corban so number of the tells us no in every generation the there has to be the opportunity for non-Jews to convert ami amidst you among you so you see in every single generation has to be the opportunity for gim to convert and therefore even today we're allowed to have a convert um even in the absence of a corban now it's very interesting this imagery my mother-in-law she's always for some reason whenever they do a sorry my mother every time that they have a um shabas for some reason my mother's like the go-to speaker at these events they do I don't know why she they always ask my mother to speak and so she's given many Torah at these sharas and uh the showers that they do and almost always she loves to talk about this topic about our experience as Jews at Hari that when we went through a hari experience we were converted we're going through that conversion process and it's a beautiful thing to think about the imagery what that meant, right? So, what where do we see there was like a it was like a wedding. Where do we see it was like a a um we have like a wedding and we have like a a conversion because the when a person goes through a wedding, what what happens? We know when a person goes through a wedding, the garra tells us on the day that he gets married that he gets the opportunity to wipe clean the to get rid of all of his sins that he had performed previously. He starts a new and we know also when someone converts the Gar tells us he is when someone converts they're like a newborn it's like he was just born. Now this is not just a nice cute statement. This actually has ramifications. Why? What does it mean you're like a newborn? In what way you like a newborn? So what that means is all of your previous family relations that you had, right? Your family ties that you had, your mother, your sister, your father, they're all non-Jewish, now be converted. Strictly speaking, you're your own entity. You're your own identity that you took on now. And therefore, the Gar asked the question, perhaps one could even marry their sister after they convert or marry their crazy to think about, right? We never do this, but marry their mother because after all, cuta dummy you're like a newborn maybe how far do we take this and the garra says in fact in theory you could however the garra says for another reason we don't do that there's another prohibition that the gar getting a little complicated here but the garra tells us that all the different mitzvot that the non-Jews have we have to do it at least as much as the Jewish nation we know there's seven noahide mitzvot and for the Jewish people we have 613 but sometimes it happens to be that those seven have parameters which go beyond our 613 So in this case, the non-Jews still are not allowed to marry their relatives. So even for a Jew, even for a Jew, we would not be permitted to do that which the non-Jews keep. The basic laws that the non-Jews keep, we have to do at least as much. That's the tells us. So accordingly, what that means is in theory really you could marry a sister after you convert, but we don't do it. The Gumar says we're not allowed because we have to be keeping the basic standard. Imagine what would be someone converts and then they go ahead and they marry their sister, >> right? >> What sister conversion So even still again you're not allowed. It doesn't change anything as well. >> She's also a katan. >> Correct. Right. So even if she converted right it's more correct. That's where the question comes in because if she didn't convert there's nothing to talk about. Correct. Okay. So you see from this again that the Jewish people we're like a and we are like that says in Rashi there says that the Jewish people or and Hashem are like a in the same way that when you know that a wedding he goes out to greet the he goes out to to welcome her to to to demonstrate his love for her. So too we the Jewish people Hashem came down from Harinai to greet us. Hashem came down. We had to do a whole preparation for it, right? Just like you do at a wedding. A whole preparation. And just like at a wedding, you have a what was our and very good. The heart itself, the says, "Hashem held the mountain over our heads." Now, we know that was for another reason we have to talk about another time. But Hashem held the mountain over our heads. And what did Hashem give us? What else do we have at the wedding? You have a tuba. Where's the kuvo that we had at >> right? So you find a lot of parallels between the wedding that the Jewish people went through at the process that we went through as we know today as we formed a double form. We have a wedding our own wedding. We have also the girus that we go through. Our process of girus is also like a kenola dami. And so many ways these two comparisons that we have that the harsina is like both a wedding and a conversion process. So we went through both of those processes at RC9. So the question again is are we setting the bar too high for our conference? If you look at source number four, the Garo tells us if you have a someone who's not Jewish who comes to accept the Torah, he says, "I accept everything except for this one thing I can't do." What's the rule in we cannot accept him is explicit that if he says I can't accept even one mitzvah then we cannot accept him as a convert and he adds on even just one little nuance even one little small detail and says what does it mean even stringency he says I can accept all the biblical mitzvot just not this Raana, can we accept him? Says we're not allowed to accept him. We should not accept him because we need the full. Yeah. >> But let's say he really really wants to, you know, he really says he's going to he'll have to talk about that in a second. We'll get there. Good. We'll be moving there. Yeah. >> Do do have a term for a Jew who doesn't accept No, >> we do. >> We do. What do we What's the term we have? >> So, right. That's what we call it, right? That a Jew who wants to keep all the except there's one that just says I'm not doing this. I don't believe in this. That's we call says it's like a right. You say one thing I'm not accepting. One thing I don't buy into this. It's like you're for the whole Torah. So we do take it even for Jews we have a very high standard just that you're still Jewish right you don't have to accept everything to become Jewish you're Jewish by birth that's it done right for the non-Jew who wants to convert however again the bar is very very high and uh we'll see in a second where the whereard your question it's a very important question if you look here uh we have to figure out though one important question whenever we learn these kamaras we have to think about is what is the reason for this right why is is he doesn't accept one mitzvah, one mitzvah. We can't accept his conversion. What would be the reason for this? So, I would have said that could be the the entire Torah is like one package, right? And you want to accept the Torah. This is what it means. You accept the whole package perhaps, right? And therefore, if someone chooses not to accept a particular mitzvah, it's as if he didn't accept all the mitzvah. Could be. Raish, however, has a little bit of a difference. source number six. He says, "Why since he cannot withstand this particular mitzvah, since he cannot perform this particular mitzvah, he certainly will not perform the other mitzvah." Look what he just said. Look at this. Look what he's telling us. When again whenever we read about a certain and the garra we have to always ask our questions the question is this what we call a sim is a sign or is the siba or is the reason what do we mean by that according to my first explanation it's a he's not he didn't accept all the mitzvot so he's not Jewish that's it we can't accept him according to however you see what he's saying here it's a sim it's a sign it's not that it's inherently problematic that he didn't accept one mitzvah but it's a sign of what's going to happen next because he doesn't accept this mitzvah and then once you that's a very slippery slope you're going to end up throwing out the whole the whole package so this is the explanation of yeah >> I think it's possible to have a third angle and that is that experience the we saw what happened we had a we know that they didn't accept and then we had with the so we saw what happened when the people come without. >> Okay, very good. So, I was about to get there, so I'm happy you mentioned that. >> So, the Gamarra tells not on the source sheet actually. I didn't put it on, but the Garbamo tells us that two things I'll tell you from the GMA two very shocking things because again, the starting point is right now, I don't know. I have a heart of gold. I care a lot about people who who want to convert. I really do want them to convert. I want them to have the opportunity. It's a wonderful thing. It's a beautiful thing. How could it be that we're not going to accept converts? I think that's how a lot of us feel. So the GMAR tells us two important warnings that you have to be mindful of. One is the you don't have it on the source sheet. I don't want to overwhelm everyone with too many sources. But the Gar says that one evil thing after the next will befall those who accept converts. And to explain that this is referring to a bait who accepts converts indiscriminately or impulsively. We have to be very mindful of that. We can't just accept. to be very careful not to just accept them quickly. And then there's another also appears in Garita and Kaducin. The Gar says a shocking statement. Most people hear this think it's not PC. Uh but I'm going to share with you anyways because I think it's important and I think it's important that we discuss it and the ramifications of this. The Gar says the converts are difficult for the Jewish nation. Like what's the leprosy of some sort, >> right? some type of >> So what does that even mean? >> What does that even mean? Then converts are difficult for the Jewish people like sapakat, like leprosy, like how could it be? >> It's a spiritual panam. >> It's a spiritual pagan. Yes. >> You know, I it's just amazing to me because I was just thinking of this this morning about um this is how Christianity began because Paul decided to convert people who would not you know he said you don't have to accept this vote that's how Christianity began >> right so again as you see from an example from a major religion of the world this is a very slippery slope uh the garra there explains many of the showing there on the spot though they explain that this phrase that the like it's like many explain explains he thinks it means that they hold on to their actions that they previously performed them and their forefathers and they continue to perform these wrong actions. It's hard for them to change. It's hard for all of us to change. It's not easy. So, if you were raised a particular way and now you're going to convert, what's going to happen? What's going to happen to you? It's not as for you. It's terrible. Now, you're going to go and you're going to convert. When you're a non-Jew, you only have seven mit. So, if you keep the seven mit, you're good. That's it. you did an amazing job, right? You hit your peak. If you're a Jew, right, if you don't keep those seven mitzvot, it's very bad. But if you're a Jew and you have 613 mitzvotes, the stakes are that much greater. The stakes are that much higher. And therefore, if you keep all 613 mitzvot, that's incredible. That's way better. But contrastingly, if you don't keep them, the amount the degree to which you can fall is actually much greater. And for this reason, we have to be very careful. So he says they're going to continue on with their previous practices. says that's why it's difficult and he says what's going to happen that the Jewish people will learn from their evil actions they'll be a bad example on us and that's what we saw the Rambam elaborates on this the Rambam says your point that's exactly what happened with the when we came out of Egypt we know there's many people who came to convert and from those people we had that formed a group the mixed multitudes the Arav right people converted and they led us astray we performed the ael right they led us in the pro process of performing the golden calf and the and those who those who wanted meat, right? This is all prompted by the those who converted. So it was a legitimate conversion but they led us astray and many many times throughout the meat bar. So we have a precedent for this. We shouldn't think it's unfounded. However, very interestingly, if you look at tooth there kaducin to have a little bit of a different explanation for this phrase. They say it's the exact opposite actually. So, why are the why are these converts bad for the Jewish people? Because they make us look bad. >> That's right. >> Because they're so You see people when they convert, they're on fire. They love Judaism. They love the mitzvah. They're so excited about it. And we ah we grew up this way. It's something we're very used to. We do it out of habits. Oh, diving. Oh, I have to wake up early. Oh, it's very difficult. Turning the pages. When is the when are we going to get to the end? Some of us, right, we're very accustomed to it. It gets harder for us to perform the mitzvah. But when you first convert, you have that, you have the excitement, you love it. So why are they difficult for the Jewish people? Because they make us look as if we aren't as excited as they are about the mitzvah. >> Okay, now let's turn the page. Let's go to page two. We'll do source seven. >> Yeah. >> The people who are from birth do a lot of things automatically. Somebody who becomes a conver is very aware of each and every misma and when you look at them something says I didn't know I was supposed to do that they're sometimes more aware of a lot of things than we are >> correct correct so it's a beautiful thing it's a beautiful thing you know when we dive into Hashem what do we say one of the things we say in the right we say do not cast us off into old age what do we mean it's a good thing it's a beautiful thing to be old. What does that mean? Don't cast us off into old age. We want to be old. That's a beautiful thing. Maybe not in the secular world. In the Jewish world, certainly we respect the elderly. It's something we look up to. We value so much education, so much experience. So what does it mean? So you look at the they say what it means is we shouldn't become do things out of habits. We just do it out of routine. We don't appreciate it. We're so accustomed to it. We don't think about it. We should always have a sense of newness, of freshness, of excitement. That's something we dabble for and that's something that often converts have and it's something we should aspire towards. Now what's interesting is if you look at on page two, if you look at part two, Gim and the Gamarra, you look at the examples we have of people converted throughout Jewish history, we find almost the exact opposite of what we just learned in some of the Gumaras. Look at some of some of these stories here. We have here I put here three different conversion candidates. Okay? Three different people want to convert and they all approach and sham. It's all a Gamar Shabas. I broke it up for you very nicely, but it's all straight from the gumar what I gave you on this page. The gar says there was a first an incident of a nonju who came in front of Sham Marlo. How many Torres do you guys have? What's the answer? Trick question. How many Torres do we have? Ah, so it's trick question, right? You said there are two Torah. We have Torah. We have the written Torah. And we have Torah. We have the oral Torah. I believe you about the written Torah. I see that. I experience it. I I see it. It's wonderful. But I don't believe you regarding the oral Torah, though. I don't believe that. That was something that Hashem gave us. I believe in the written Torah, not the oral Torah. What do we call such people by the way? >> No. >> What? >> The Kerites, right? That was the Kerites. the Sadducees, the Kerites, right? People only believed in the written Torah. That's not what we believe. He said, "Convert me on the condition that you'll teach me the written Torah." So, garbo. So, he rebuked him and he pushed him away and said, "We're not doing this. We're not we're not going to convert you. You're not willing to accept the oral Torah. That's it. Bye." Why? Because that's what the GMAT said. As we just saw, you have to be willing to accept all 613 mits. So seemingly B sh is following the rule, right? The same guy comes down to hill right away converts him. So he started to teach him. So the first day he told him, he starts to teach him, right? The next day you said, "Right, you start going backwards." He said, "That what? What do you mean? Yesterday that's not what you taught me. Yesterday you told me the first letter of the alphabet is alf. Today you told me the first letter of the alphabet is tough. Which one is it? Did you not when you converted, did you not rely on me? Do you need not rely on the fact that I was going to teach you the entire Torah the and therefore you should also believe me regarding the not just what's written but the al the oral Torah right you believe in me regarding this you should believe in me regarding that it's very interesting so what do you see here what do you see here look at rashi source number eight I already explained to you the first rashi you go sing the second paragraph in source number eight He relied relied on his own wisdom that he knew he foresaw that this guy who came to him was sincere enough that in the end he would accept all the mitzvot he saw he believed in him. This is not like the was describing it wasn't that he actually denied the entire oral Torah. He didn't believe yet. He didn't believe yet that this was from Hashem. But Hill believed that after he taught him the oral Torah, he would come to believe in this as well. So you see what's something very interesting here is that Bin is allowed to use their personal discretion to believe and try and determine whether this individual is sincere. Is he really going to accept all the mitzvah? He might not be there yet, but if he's going to get there, if we believe that he's going to get there, that's sufficient grounds. That's what you see from this kamar. Okay, conversion candidate number two. The next guy comes in. This is the more famous one. This is one of my favorite stories. Another convert, another nonju want to convert. He came to Shaylo. Convert me on condition. You'll teach me the entire Torah while I'm standing on one foot. Right. He pushed him away. He comes in front of Hill. Hill converts him. That which is hateful to your friend, do not do unto him. That which hateful to you, do not do unto your friend. This is the entire Torah zil. The rest is commentary. Go and learn. So what do you see here again? He said the entire Torah in a nutshell in half a sentence. Most of us are used to the conversion process taking several years. You teach him you have to learn about shabas. You have to learn about kash. You have to learn about family purity. You have to learn about all the different mitzvot and then at the very end we'll consider whether you're worthy of converting. He all did in two seconds. He taught him the entire Torah. He said here a different phrase that which is hateful to you do not do unto your friend. That's all he said. He said the rest is commentary go and learn. So you see the conversion process doesn't have to take so long. He did it very quickly. It's very interesting whenever I teach this you'll notice something very interesting. Most of us are begging the question you know how is this the entire Torah fellow Jew is a beautiful thing we know right also said it's a very important principle but how is that the overarching principle that encompasses all the different mitzvah. So if you in the spot he answers this question says it's not only a reference to your fellow Jew. He says it's also a reference to is actually reference who's your friend. It's not just your fellow Jew. Who is your friend? Hashem. So we have to be mindful not only how we treat others but how we treat Hashem. How do we treat Hashem? If I do the mitzvot, I'm treating Hashem very well. It means I care about the relationship. I care about I'm demonstrating my love for him, don't violate his word. And then he says the other which you're more familiar with going maybe it means actually your friend two different interpretations but I think they both highlight that this phrase encapsulates encapsulates all the different mitzvot both and also what I call the horizontal mitzvot and the vertical mitzvot encompasses them all. So again, he has to be willing to accept all the mitzvot. You could summarize them for him, but we have to foresee that he's going to actually perform all the details as well. Okay, one more conversion candidate. We have one more here. Do you have a question before? >> I was going to add I would see it also as if you treat everybody's equal, you're not going to be nice to this one and not the other one. Then you're basically believing that people are made, >> right? I mean we have to believe in every person, every individual. It's not sufficient just to say this person is made and not that one. So that's part of the mitzvah. Yeah. Okay. We'll try and summarize this one because it's a little bit longer. So there was another instance with the nonju who came behind the midrash. He was listening to the sofare. We know there's requirements when you write a safer Torah. There's a requirement that the sofair what does he have to do? He has to annunciate the words as he's writing them. Yes, he's pronunciate the words and he said he was describing he was listing off the Torah itself all the beautiful clothing of the coin. So the he was very curious the he asked he asked the sofur who are these clothing meant for who they intended for the coin it's for the high priest the coin so he said to himself I want to convert so they'll make me into a coin so good reason to convert a bad reason to convert doesn't exactly work that way right it's not the best convert me under the condition that you'll make me into the coin. He pushed him away. What do you think Hill's going to do? This is the most shocking to me, right? He converted even this guy. Even this guy, he converted him. What does he'll do? He has a pot. He has a plan in his mind. He told him, "You know what? You think you can just go ahead and become the coin guttle right away. Imagine you have a king. You think you just become king overnight. What do you have to do to become king? You have to know the laws. You have to know how the government functions. You think you just jump to the top the top position. Go ahead and learn what it means to be a king or in this case a cog. So he began to study. He started to learn. I got to the a stranger right who goes ahead and approaches the she approaches the shall be put to death he will die who is this referring to he asked even the greatest king even he can't go into the he said to himself as follows If the Jewish people were called sons of Hashem loves us so much and recall Hashem's firstborn and yet the says about them that the stranger who's not who approaches the will be put to death. So, but for me it was a convert and I I'm not so beloved yet. I come with my little pouch. I come with my little nothing. All the more so would I be in big trouble if I went into the so you learn something. Am I not fit to be the coin? What do you mean I not fit? So first he went back to Shan. He said I I guess I was wrong. I I can't be a coin. He understood. And then he comes and he says in front of both of them. He says both in front of Hill and Shaman. He says it was Hel's modesty is because of him he should be blessed. The blessings should rise should rest upon his head because he brought me close under and this is the key phrase. He brought me under the wings of heaven. Now this phrase by the way is the famous phrase that the Rambam uses in his description of what it means to convert. The definition of converting says the Rambam is you're coming. You're coming under the wings of Hashem, the wings of heaven. Sure enough, he told him that the three of them gathered together and he said in the last line it was because of Sham's that he was so strict with me that pushed me away that made me feel like I couldn't even continue on in this world but it was because Hill's modesty that brought me close under the wings of heaven. Now one key question I have on the Gumar and then I'll take your question in a second. One key question I have is, come on, I believe in the fact that Hill believed in these people. I believe that. I get it. But did he really convert them right then? The guy who says, "I want to be the co." Okay, come on in. Sure, you can be Jewish. Sure, no problem. Is that really how it went down? The guy who says, "I don't believe in the oral Torah. I only want to learn about the written Torah." That guy, he'll convert it right away. The guy who says, "Teach me the entire Torah while I stand on one foot." Really, he accepted him right away. That's it says the not exactly. What happened here? He says that's not what he said. He did not accept them to convert immediately. He says after all the Gar tells us we do not accept converts who convert with ulterior motives. Someone says, "I want to convert because I want prestige because I want to be a member of the VIP group. I want to be uh I want to marry someone who's Jewish." Very common, right? What's we don't accept them. That's not a reason that we accept converts. He did not convert him until later. But he accepted him into a group, >> the program, >> the program. He accepted him to the gist program. He wanted him to be a part of the process and he said, "I'm willing to teach you." But he didn't convert them on the spot. You have to go through a process. It can't be we're going to accept people willy-nilly, says the Marshall. It has to be that there's a process and we go through step by step and we help them. And he was willing to help him. He didn't push him away but he has to go through the process first. That's the Marshall explains. Yeah. One and two. >> Right. Just two two two books which have come up. Number one is that this fellow felt it important to go back to Shamay and I actually see it as kind of a chastisement. He came back to to Shama just to tell why didn't you tell me up front that I couldn't possibly do it and then he left. Shai doesn't say a word. He doesn't say a word. And the second thing is that what this fellow turned into this person Yeah. Again, it's a beautiful thing. We can learn from the converts. Some things we can learn a lot from them about their passion and their and their willing to give up their all in order to be a part of this process. >> Yes. >> Certainly. >> Yeah. For sure. >> Yeah. >> So, what when the Congress u does anybody check up on them? >> Yeah. So, it's a it's very important. So RCA, the rebbitic council of America, which is the one I was involved in. I know that for them at the very least, they have very clear guidelines. You have to be willing to work with them through the system. It's not just that you have a bait all of a sudden that they go ahead and they convert them. It's not that's not how it works. It has to be there's a process and they have a sponsoring rabbi who's willing to step work with them through the steps and at the very end of the process then they go in front of the bait and they ascertain that they're ready and then they'll go ahead and do the conversion. But really it has to be they go through this process. >> But I understand that and they go to the mahar but and they are accepted and they are considered fully Jewish. Does anybody >> uh after they convert >> a month later? >> So a good rabbi usually what they do the sponsoring rabbi of the community. One of the laws the RCA has is they want that the sponsoring grabby of the community should actually live in the community where this person is. It's not a sponsoring grabby from a different country or a different state. >> You want to be local. This has a relationship with him and hopefully that'll continue even after he converts. And that's very important. Yeah. Okay. So now it's very interesting. So now we're going to get to the question we had before which is what happens if the threshold was not reached. Will this invalidate the conversion retroactively and if someone let's say again sometimes people have very high goals and they want to keep all the mitzvot but it happens in the end that they're not that they didn't keep all the mitzvot. So is that a problem? So first and I'll tell you there's an interesting story of a woman I know who who went ahead and she wanted to convert but she said uh I'm a vegetarian and we know she was learning about the different mitzvot and she said one of the mitzvah that we have please god in the please near future we have a bit of mach one of the mitzvah we have to eat the corban bes so she was talking to a rabbi and she wanted to know is it a problem that I'm a vegetarian and the rabbi said there is a mitzvah we have to eat the corb part But she said when the mid comes I'm willing to eat that kazite of meat. She meaning she understood that there's something greater than her personal morals. There's something even greater than that something beyond her understanding and she was willing to accept it and she actually did a successful conversion. A beautiful story. So we have to understand as much as we understand as much as we think we understand the mitzvot we have to also understand that hashem has a has a bigger picture in mind. Hashem knows exactly the purpose of the mitzvot something we don't understand. and to be willing to yield towards Hashem's understanding. Understand that's greater than our own. Now the Gar tells us that we have a responsibility. Source 13 when the convert comes and he wants to convert we have to look into it. Maybe he's converting for money for being a position of leadership, right? Where we talked about before a marriage, right? Maybe he's fearful of someone attacking him if he doesn't convert. If he's a man, maybe he wants to marry a certain woman. If she's a woman, maybe she wants to marry a Jewish man. We have no reason to assume otherwise if we looked into it. It seems that they're converting for the right reason. Then we tell them we inform them. That's the key word. The great the great weight of the Torah, right? It's importance and the difficulty of performing all the we have to be aware of this arts. in order that if they're not fit, they'll separate. They won't be a part of this. And if they still are determined that they want to keep all the mitzvot, then we accept them. Now, what happens if they didn't do that though? That's what the bian supposed to do. What if the bine did not do that? Or what if, another question we had earlier, what if they did that and they thought they're sincere, but it turns out that they weren't? Does that invalidate the girus? Does that make it that they're not Jewish? >> Yeah. >> I know. So the big question is were they converted? Were converted before they married them or did they marry them and really wanted to convert so that they could marry. So you know that by really the conversion that you just quoted here, the conversion was afterwards and that was because if after they died they had really not been converted for the right reasons it would have been invalid like with or but because Ruth reaccepted now we know that it was a valid conversion >> very good so there's a big question actually in the regarding when exactly that conversion happened Ruth's conversion it's not 100% clear in the when exactly their conversion happened many assume like I just alluded to that perhaps it was when she said this statement your god is my god etc. But many give other different times that maybe she converted a proof that prayer was at this point was the fact that she uh we know m and kun died. So one of the explanations why they died is because they married non-Jewish women right so it could be that they weren't yet Jewish that's a proof that perhaps they converted only later and it seems to be that way but again the exact vine where they converted is not 100% clear. I think what's important though from we learned from that story is that uh here this is the prime example of what's supposed to happen. That's what it's supposed to do. But unfortunately as we know today that's not exactly how all conversions work. Sometimes it's the fault of the bet for not investigating sufficiently and sometimes it's the fault of the convert that they actually deceive the bet which is very unfortunate but there have been stories of people who actually try and deceive the bene in order to be become a part of the Jewish people. So what is in such a case? Let's see the it says they did not investigate or they did not inform them of the mitzvot. They didn't tell them the reward of the mitzvot and their punishment. And yet they had embrace and they went to the mikvah in front of three members of the which is the requirement to convert. So you have to do all those steps and it has to be done in front of the presence of a bin. It's a valid conversion. Even if it's known that he converted for the wrong reason, still he's Jewish because he did the steps even he goes ahead now and he worships idols. He's just like any other Jew who did not keep a mitzvah who's which is not okay. But still his marriage is a binding marriage. So if he marries a Jewish girl, okay, they're married, right? If you try and marry a non-Jew, is it binding? It's not binding. But if you marry a Jew and you're Jewish, it's binding. So here he is, he's a Jew, he's marrying a Jew, it works. So and you look in the parenthesis here, the he says something interesting. He says, "We know for what happens for a Jew. What happens if a Jew doesn't keep a certain mitzvah and he's adamant not just he's he's lazy or he can't do it or it's difficult for him he says I don't believe in this mitzvah I don't do this right such a person we call he performs there's a concept of even right someone who let's say an apostate or someone who throws off the yoke of heaven he doesn't keep a certain mitzvah because he doesn't believe in them so when he goes ahead now and he recepts that those mitzvot he actually requires a midana almost like a conversion, a mini conversion. He goes to level you should do it in front of three people. Unbelievable. So we see even for a Jew, there is such a concept of going through a cha process, renewing yourself, converting so to speak. But again, if you marry someone who's Jewish, you're in this stage of life and you're yet not yet believing in all the mitzvot, is your marriage binding? of course says the on here he says he says if you look at the he says look at this that's all he says what does the say it's a very long piece I don't want to give it to you because we'd have a six- page source sheet instead of a three-page source sheet says the following he says what the said he says if you did not inform of the mitzvot he's still Jewish what isn't this the basic requirement of becoming a Jew you need kapalat Oh, you have to accept all the mitzvot. How could it be that you don't tell him about the mitzvot? How could it be that he's Jewish? Says that a critical distinction. Look at the wording of the he said, what did he say? We have to inform them. You have to inform them about the mitzvot. That is not integral. What's integral? and they accept the mitzvot kabato mitzvot. So if you don't inform them, the bait is negligent and they don't tell him about the mitzvot. But this non-Jew who wants to convert is sincere and he says I accept all the mitzvot. He might not even know what all of them are but he says I accept all the mitzvot and he's sincere. Even if the bait was negligent and it did not inform him what those mitzvah were, the conversion is valid. But if he doesn't have mitzvot then if he does not accept the mitzvot then just because you dunked in a a mikvah doesn't make you Jewish. What makes you Jewish is you accepted the mitzvot. And that's the underlying theme of the as we said you're going that's what it means to become Jewish. You're accepting the mitzvot and they this is the first and most important condition. What's interesting many of the commentators here point out uh is the is the big question we have to address which is what if we know that they're not keeping all the meats full right now. We know for a fact this person is not show right now. He's not. But he's sincere. He wants to convert. He's admit it's important to me I want to do it. So can we accept such a person? So an interesting alone in the post he says very interesting comments. We have Benion Uziel who is mostly rejected for this on this. He says that even if let's say we know that they will not keep all the mitzvotes when we convert them at first he thinks we can convert them because eventually they will keep all the meats. Now maybe they will, maybe they won't. But he's he's confident. He says eventually they will keep all the meat votes. We can convert them. >> Who is this? >> And what's his precedential? He says we're confident that they will keep all the meats votes. What's his precedence? What's his right what's his source backing him up? That's what Hill did, right? They did not have good intentions. Hill's conversion candidates, but he accepted them. Now again the Marshall thought he didn't accept them right away but he accepted them. So ultimately we also can accept them. Most assume that we know at the time was under tremendous pressure because he felt that what was going to happen if we didn't accept the converts they would go ahead and get married anyways. So they would marry as as a non-Jew have Jews marrying non-Jews. It's a big problem of intermarriage. So he felt a lot of pressure during that time. So Moses assumed not like him. Most assume they have to accept all the mitzvot now. We have to be seeing that they're keeping all the mess. Now it's not sufficient that down the road they'll eventually keep them. Again, you can accept them into the conversion program. We should work with them. But to accept them right away, that's something most supposed even if that conversion was good. Even what say that Ben was correct. He said still what a tremendous ab. It's a terrible thing. You're putting a stumbling block before the blind. You're causing him tremendous suffering now because he's going to convert. he's not going to be keeping the mitzvot and you're causing him not as you're not causing him that he's receiving a benefit. It's to his detriment that he converts now. It's terrible. So for this reason felt you should not convert such a person even if the m even if the the conversion was good which he doesn't think is correct. But even if he wanted to argue that it was good. It's a terrible thing that you're doing if he's not going to keep the meats folks. >> Yeah. One question then I have to wrap up. >> Taking it to today's world. Let's say the the army. There are a lot of Russians in the army who think that they started thinking that they were Jewish that whether they their parents told them it's really sha I wouldn't want my children to marry them obviously my grandchildren. So my grandson who was in the army took it upon himself to direct them to rabbis to reconvert them. Now some of them I asked him are they all keeping all the mitzvah and the answer is no. But the rabbis who convert them feel that it It's better for them to be Jewish now with the to you know and everything than to go around saying they're Jewish with a questionable identity. They're very sincere. I mean they say they're going to keep all the >> So I'll tell you >> correct. I am sure that they're sincere. I'll tell you each question requires a post. It's not up for me who keeps giving one time she to tell you all the rules for all the converts in the world. I don't think that's how it should go. it requires a lot of sensitivity and it's a very nuanced sha generally though this is the requirement generally you do require that keeping all the mitzvot and that's I think the way most schemes assume mosha addresses the following question which is I think related perhaps a little bit he says that many orthodox this might be the basis of the conversion where Mosha Finstein was addressing the question that uh we know of many orthodox Jews in a particular community are not observing a particular mitzvah let's say you live in a community there's not a single Jewish woman who covers her hair. Let's just say >> not a single Jewish woman who covers her hair. Let's say such a community. Now again, Jewish women are obligated to cover their hair. It's a it's a Mishna. We have to. It's a requirement. But if no one in the community is doing it and this person wants to convert, you're going to make them cover their hair. So sort of Moshe Feinstein writes meaning he doesn't think this is correct but for those conversions the rabbis who went ahead and converted people in such circumstances he feels that the conversion is valid because it's the equivalence of not being per informed of the mitzvot because this person who's converting thinks what do they think they look everyone else around them doesn't keep it they think I'm keeping all the mitzvotes they weren't informed of the mitzvotes they didn't know but in their heart they accepted all the mitzvotes they thought they were doing what was Right? So for that person he says conversion the bait did something wrong that they didn't inform them of what they're supposed to do it's and even if they did inform it but they think that ah we don't actually have to keep this if they thought in their mind that it's not actually a requirement they thought they're not doing anything wrong. So then again the ba the conversion would be valid. to all women congress are they all told that they have to cover their hair and do they >> meaning what's supposed to happen is the b is supposed to inform them of all the mitzvot what all the mitzvot means is all the mitzvot so all the mitzvah includes covering your hair they're supposed to tell them about that if they're married now in number 13 it's interesting that that he says >> yeah so today nowadays we don't have real today today we don't have The chain was lost. Right? Today we don't have we know has to be given init and it has to be given from a someone who previously had. So today even people have right we're not we don't have real like we're in the times of the the so because we don't have real so everyone is a head today. >> Oh we call I don't mean I mean the inor. So, okay. So, very important question. Very important question. Is that the members of the Bin need to be upstanding Orthodox Jews. >> That's right. >> That's very important because there are different explanations why I was hoping to get to this at the very end. We'll see if we have time, but but I'll just say now because you asked Rev RV, uh we know that the requirements of the Bin, the members of the Bine need to represent real Orthodox Judaism because that's what they're trying to join. That's the group they're trying to join. So if they don't represent that if they themselves don't keep the mitzvot then the conversion is not valid and that's why it's so important if someone converts that they do it in front of a real upstanding members of they really keep all the mitzvot but even all the karim etc famously explains in gan eos he says the reason for this is because the members of the bin they represent they represent hashem and this g who's converting is coming he's coming under the wings of heaven that they're accepting him they rep just like The Jewish people at Hari, we converted by Hashem. Hashem went ahead and he converted us, so to speak, right? We were all there at Harina. We had that went through that process. So too today, when someone converts, they're going through that same process that Hashem quote unquote is is converting them. >> Let's wrap up here. Last source on the page. Okay, the final two minutes. I'm so I'm sorry. Sternbath actually argued the one that Mosha he said as follows. He says uh that the member of a court of such a bene who went ahead and converted them and did not inform them of the mitzvot and they went ahead and convert them knowing that they don't keep certain mitzvot like let's say in my example before covering their hair he says that it's not a validator he thinks because and because the dian himself did something wrong if the dian himself did something wrong he the dian is a problem with the dian the dian's not keeping all the mitzvot and since the dian's not keeping the mitzvot now that he's not an upstanding citizen So, so to speak, he can't go ahead with that conversion process. Unbelievable. So, I think most don't assume like Rev. Sternbach, but it's very interesting. Rev. Sternbach held that the members of the court have to be keeping all the mitzvot properly and they have to represent real Orthodox Judaism. And if they're being too willy-nilly about certain mitzvot, then it can actually uproot the giroot. It would make it that they're not Jewish. One last interesting source, this comes up unfortunately. Sometimes people convert as a child. We know are we about to convert a child is yes >> the problem is a child does not have real dots they don't understand what's going on by definition even if they're very bright they're not 10 years old but they don't understand things properly or even if they do understand things proper we assumely they don't have dots until they turn so someone who wants to convert as a child what is the mechanism so says the gar we convert them through whose dot whose knowledge is going ahead and serving as the dot is required that of the Jewish court. Why is this? What's the what's the what are we learning from this? It's considered merit to that convert and we go ahead and we convert someone who we can do something meritous for someone who is not in our presence who's not here. >> Excuse me. >> So it's interesting. So he says low so so if it's for him meaning we understand that it's going to be to this kan's benefit if he grows up and he keeps all the it'll be to his benefit to become a Jew says to on the spot it is and that's why even though a cotton doesn't have which is the mechanism of the conversion here a little complicated we're not going to do that go into that right now but that's why the g can go ahead and convert uh can convert even though he doesn't have ducks what's interesting though is the gumar concludes that because he doesn't have doubt yet. He doesn't yet know what's going on. When he or she becomes barab mitzvah, >> they have to reconvert. >> They have to well they don't have to reconvert >> reaccept. >> So it's a sh the so the right I think held that he accept but most assume that the says he has one opportunity when he first becomes to reject Judaism. And if he decides to reject Judaism then he's not Jewish. But if he's happy being Jewish, if he's happy with his his status, then he's keeping the he's not keeping the mur but he's happy with where he is, then he's consumed to be Jewish. That's what most scheming again we assume that being a is a merit. This is a great opportunity and I think as we go into Shabus, we have to think about for ourselves what is it is for us said to go through this process of reidentifying ourselves again. Starting a fresh, starting a new, appreciating our Judaism, valuing it, appreciating what Hashem has given us all. And we should always have that freshness, that newness. Thank you.