Menachos Daf 98

All right, daf tzadi ches, Sunday's daf. And we have been trying to work through this pasuk in Yechezkel and how it would be understood by both shitos Reb Meir and Reb Yehuda. That Reb Meir holds that all the amos in the Beis Hamikdash were amos beinonis except for the very few exceptions that were the five tefach amos, whereas Reb Yehuda holds no, all of the keilim were made of chamisha tefach amos and it was only the amos binyan that were shisha tefachim. So, we had a problem working out the height of the mizbeach based on the Mishnah and the Braisa about the kohen who could go one amah down from where he was standing on the saivev and l'chara he's going to go below the chuta sikra. So, we suggested maybe it's not amos of chamisha tefachim that are working with height of the aside and the saivev, etc., but maybe it's the knisa, the horizontal line, and we're kind of in the middle of shlugging that up right now. That's where we got to yesterday. So, I'm going to pick it up again about a dozen lines from the bottom of tzadi zayin alef beis where the Gemara was suggesting that we're being loy duck, that even though if you're going to start dealing with the knisa of being amos of five tefachim and you're going to have a bunch of extra tefachim that will comprise together to become an extra amah, which is what the last cheshbon winded off with at the end of yesterday, maybe it'll be loy duck. The Mishnah wasn't going to cheshbon that to add that extra amah based on the additional tefachim. But, the Gemara continues to ask, "Mal kam hiluch raglei kohanim amah mizeh vi'amah mizeh?" That same Mishnah says that the kohanim were able to walk an amah on each side on that saivev when they would go around the mizbeach. So, nimtza esrim v'arba al esrim v'arba. So, come to cheshbon, it's 24 by 24 amos square. But, if you're telling me that the knisa of the aside and the saivev and the kronim were all five tefach amos, come to cheshbon, makom hamaracha esrim v'chamisha amos. It wasn't 24 by 25 amos. And v'chitem achina miloy duck, you want to say the same idea that we're not being so specific because that additional amah is comprised of these additional smaller tefachim that you're adding up. So, okay, so maybe that's okay to say that if you're talking about tanayim in a Braisa. But, you certainly can't say that about a pasuk. Pasuk says in it says in the pasuk in Yechezkel v'ha'ariel, which is a reference to that area where the fire was burning, sh'teim esrei arech b'sh'teim esrei rochav r'vuah, it's 12 by 12 square. So, yachol she'eina ela sh'teim esrei al sh'teim esrei, yesh omerim al arba'as revav. The pasuk says it's it has four areas. Melamed shebe'emtah ummaydeis sh'teim esrei amah l'rochav u'l'rochav. So, if you're going to tell me that there's going to be from the center it's 12 amos to each direction, that means it's 24 amos. The pasuk is saying it's 24 amos. You can't tell me loy duck about a pasuk. So, v'chitem maybe you're going to tell me shish me'ah amei karba amah bas chamisha amos ilu, maybe you're going to split it up and say that six of the 32 amos of the mizbeach were originally with five tefach amos and therefore the Mishnah's cheshbon is going to be correct. So, if you're going to say that six of those 32 amos were going to be measured with amos of five tefachim and therefore the Mishnah's going to work out, that can't work because im kein Rav Elazar, the whole chatzer of the Beis Hamikdash is going to be too big. Ditsnan, because the Mishnah says in the fifth perek of meseches middos, kol ha'azarah hayesah arech me'ah v'shmonah v'shivah. How long was the entire azarah? It was 187 amos. V'al rochav me'ah v'shloshim v'chamish. And it was 135 in its width. Okay, 187 by 135, that is the entire size. Now, we're now going to break it down in a very organized fashion and if you have the Artscroll in front of you, it has a very nice picture where it breaks it apart. So, v'im mishtaneh amar me'ah v'shmonah v'shivah, it was 187 amos broken up in the following way. That makom drisas raglei Yisrael achas esrei amah, the Yidden were able to go in that first 11 amah area. Umakom drisas raglei kohanim achas esrei amah, where the kohanim would go another 11 amos, we're up to 22 so far. Hamizbeach shloshim v'shtayim, the whole mizbeach was 32 amos itself, that's 22 plus 32, we're up to 54. Bein ulam l'mizbeach esrim v'shtayim amah, between the ulam and the mizbeach was another 22, 54 and 22, now we're up to 76. V'heichal me'ah amah, and the and the entire heichal was 100 amos, now we're up to 176. V'achas esrei amah achorei Beis Hakappores, and behind the Kodesh Hakodashim was another 11, giving us the grand total of 187. Now, if you're going to tell me that the actual mizbeach was one amah short because the amos of the aside, saivev, and kronim were measured with an amah of five tefachim, then the entire measurement is going to be wrong and you're going to be an amah short. So, the Gemara is giving up now on the vertical being amos of five tefachim, we're giving up on the knisa and the horizontal being amos of five tefachim, and now we're finally going to come up with a new p'shat in how to read the pasuk in Yechezkel, el cheik amah b'geivah. That's taka talking about the height of the aside. And amah rochav is talking about the knisa. So, we're making up shara by saying it's some and some. Gevulah el sfasa saviv, and the border that went around half an amah all around is regarding the uh the height of the kronice. Moving over to mem alef, leishnah achiv leishnah achiv, and of course it doesn't matter how wide were the kronice, that's not going to make enough kamina whether it was a width of five tefach amah or a six tefach amah because that won't add up to equal another full amah anyway. So, now that we have this kind of p'shara that one part of the pasuk's talking about the vertical, one's talking about the knisa, now we can actually understand this other din about the kohen standing on the saivev reaching down and not having a problem with the chuta sikra because mizbeach kamah haveei, what's the height of the mizbeach now? We're saying it's chamishim v'shmonah, it's not 60 anymore because it's not going to be 10 amos of six tefachim but rather it's going to be two of those amos are going to be made up of five tefachim. So, the total amount of the height is going to be 58 tefachim. Palgei mizbeach kamah haveei, what's going to be the midpoint? It'll be esrim v'tisah, it'll be 29. Mikronice v'ad saivev kamah haveei, what's going to be from the top of the kronice until that saivev? It'll be esrim v'tiltsa, 23. So, kamah botzel l'palgei mizbeach, how much is going to go from the saivev to that halfway point of the mizbeach? Shisha, six tefachim. Great, it's not good. We learned in the Braisa, mas l'ma'alah mi'raglav afilu amah achas, it will be psula. So, the six tefachim is enough room for the kohen to go down one amah in order to still be above the chuta sikra. And deik nami, it also actually seems that way from the pasuk. Dichsiv, cheik ho amah v'amah rochav. So, from the very fact that the pasuk in Yechezkel switches the kind of words that it's using when it talks about the aside and the saivev, it's saying that one of them was talking about the height and one wasn't talking about and the width. Shma mina, yay! Now we know how to read the pasuk in Yechezkel and we're done with this particular part of the cheshbon. Now, says the Gemara, "V'kamah amah beinonis?" We've been talking about this amah beinonis. So, we've been taking it all the time as a amah of six tefachim. And now the Gemara is finally actually speaking it up a ferish. Amar Rebbi Yochanan, "Shisha tefachim." When we say amah beinonis, we're talking about an amah of six tefachim. Amar Rebbi Yosi bar Avan, "Afin anan ami tanina." It's not just a pasuk, we also have it as a Mishnah that Rebbi Meir omer hashulchan arech sh'neim esrei v'rochav b'shisha. It's 12 by six. Now, the Torah says it's one by two. So, if we have a Mishnah that says 12 by six, there you go, we have now a tana'ic source that an amah is made up of six tefachim. But, to call it an amah beinonis, says the Gemara, "Michlal d'havei amah d'nefisha minah, must be there is an amah that exists that's greater than a six tefach amah." Is there taka an amah that's actually seven? And the Gemara says, "Yeah, in." Because v'ha'otzanah, we're going to see now in this Mishnah in meseches keilim in the 70th perek that we do have an amah that's seven tefachim. This could actually be the makor for the expression six seven. I'm just saying, six seven. Anyhow, what does this Mishnah in keilim say? Sh'tei amos hayu b'Shushan Habirah. There were two amos in Shushan Habirah. Now, we're not talking about the city of Shushan Habirah, we're talking about the special room in the Beis Hamikdash that was called Shushan Habirah. We'll see soon why it was called that. But, in that room, they actually had two amos, meaning two measuring sticks. Achas al keren mizrachis tzevonis, one was on the northeastern corner. V'achas al keren mizrachis dramis, one was on the southeastern corner. She'al keren mizrachis tzevonis yesairah al shel Moshe chotzei etzba. The one in the northeastern corner had a little bit longer than the six tefach amah of Moshe, which is the classic amah, that's our amah beinonis, by one half of an etzba. She'al keren mizrachis dramis hayesah yesairah al chotzei etzba. And the one in the southeastern corner was longer by that one by nochin extra chotzei etzba. So, nimtza yesairah al Moshe etzba. So, it was longer than the amah of Moshe Rabbeinu by a full etzba because the amah of Moshe Rabbeinu was actually 24 etzba'os. But, this special measuring stick that they kept in the room called Shushan Habirah was 24 and a half etzba'os. And the other one was actually 25 etzba'os. And we're going to explain why we had these different lengths in a minute. V'lomar omru achas gedolah v'achas ketanah, why should there be these longer ones in Shushan Habirah? Kidai sheyu umnin natlin b'ketanah u'machzirin b'gedolah. The people who worked in the Beis Hamikdash, all those umnin, the people who built stuff, they would work for the Beis Hamikdash according to a smaller measurement, meaning the what meaning the amah of Moshe Rabbeinu of six tefachim. But, then they would do more work according to the bigger measurement of the Beis Hamikdash. Why? Kidai shelo y'hevei deimi'ilah, in order to be super firm about it and not have an issur of me'ilah being neheneh from any moment of hekdesh, they would actually do more. So, they had a bigger measurement so they would compensate for that. Tosafos speaks out, it doesn't really mean issur me'ilah because they can be mechallel on a shavah prutah, so Now, the Gemara says, "V'tachas dilmei, why did they have two different kinds of these larger measuring sticks, one being an extra etzba than the other one?" Because chad l'kesef v'dahav, one was used for gold and silver. V'chad l'binyan, one was for just construction. So, the one for gold and silver, they were chasan mamon shel Yisrael, so you're not going to have so much of an additional measurement, it'll just be a half a half an etzba per amah. But, anyway, the point of all this is that you see there's an amah that's even bigger than the six tefach amah, hence the six tefach amah is called an amah beinonis. Tnan chasam, sha'ar mizrach l'chav Shushan Habirah tzurah. You know why we call this room Shushan Habirah? It's because in that sha'ar mizrach, on that eastern gate, there was a picture of Shushan Habirah that was drawn there. So, mai ta'ama, why was that? So, Reb Chisda v'Rebbi Yitzchak bar Avdimi, chad omer kidai sheyeidu me'eichan bau, they should know where they came from. And the way Rashi understands that line is that since the malchus wanted them to be reminded that they gave them permission to rebuild the Beis Hamikdash, so they had to go ahead and put that Persian image there. The Maharsha says, "No, they have to actually remember where you come from." It's like we need to know our history. But, v'chad omer says the Gemara, "Kidai she'tehei eimas malchus aleihen." So, they should always be have that fear of the malchus upon them. Amar Rebbi Yanai, "L'eilam tehei eimas malchus alecha." That is a thing that we have as Yidden to always have the malchus, even the goyishe malchus on us. Shenemar, "V'yeirdoo kol avadecha eilay v'yishtachavu li leimor." The Moshe Rabbeinu said l'gabei Paroh's avadim, that the avadim of Paroh would come to Moshe and beg to leave Mitzrayim. But, Moshe Rabbeinu didn't say to Paroh that you yourself are going to come. He had like kavod for Paroh even in this matzav. So, mi'ilu l'zeh lo kamah, he out of the kavod of Paroh. Rebbi Yitzchak Amar, another makor, "May al achas shenemar, Vayara sham hayesah El Eliyahu v'Yishaneim masno v'yoresh achav al b'yach Yisraela." That Eliyahu Hanavi gave kavod to Achav, who was a terrible rasha, by running in front because it wasn't becoming for him not to have a someone running in front of him. But the point is you see gave COVID out the malchus. And now another unrelated memory just because it has the same names of Yitzchak and Rivka Chizda etc. The pasuk is about trufa which sounds like which sounds like this navua that Yechezkel had is that these leaves that are going to be growing in the base hamikdash are going to be healing have healing power. So if Chizda and Rebbe Yitzchak bar Avdimi had a different peh shel a ma'ala that someone who was mute could now speak it's the peh shel a ma'ala meaning the upper mouth was able to now speak. That was the healing power it had. The chadar malchut peh shel a mata which is a reference to the uterus of a woman that if she was barren she couldn't have children until now now she'll be able to have children. So it had that healing power. It Machshiki amar la'chater peh ilemim it's going to be able to heal the mute person. And Bar Kappara amar la'chater peh akarays it'll be able to open the peh the mouth of the akara that now her womb would actually be able to give forth children. Okay. Tanna Rabbanan back to meseches Menachos. The pasuk says ilemim lo kachas selos of ya'afisa isa shteim esrei challos the sam day sam shteima rachais. So this is the pasuk that gives the instructions of stacking the lechem aponim. So we know there's two stacks comprised of 12 loaves into two stacks of loaves. And the Torah seems to be saying all these different facts. 12 loaves made of two different columns six in each. So why does the Torah need to speak all this out? So now this whole price is just going to say why we need all these different pieces of information. V'lo nemar shesh had it not said six in each respective stack hayeisi omer achas shel arba v'achas shel shmona maybe you could have them offset one could be four one could be eight. Lo kach nemar shesh. V'lo nemar shteima rachais shesh rachais if the Torah said two stacks six in each v'lo nemar shteim esrei didn't say the 12 in total hayeisi omer shalosh shal shesh maybe there could have been three of six each totaling 18. So lo kach nemar shteim esrei that's why we need to have total of 12. V'lo nemar shteim esrei challos u'ma rachais if the pasuk had said 12 in stacks but it didn't say shteim didn't say the two columns of it v'lo nemar shteim v'shesh hayeisi omer shalosh shal arba arba maybe it could be three stacks of four each. Lo kach nemar shteim v'shesh. Ah she'lo yamri she'lo chazal olo le madno if you didn't have this whole thing we wouldn't have known exactly the tzura of how it has to be stacked on the shulchan. So how could it say how do they tack it up put it la'maisa? Nice and shteima rachais shel shesh there were two stacks of six loaves each. The im nosen achas shel arba v'achas shel shmona if you were to tack it up put four in one and eight in the other lo yotzei it would not work. Now shteim shel sheva sheva let's say you put two of seven let's say you actually added one on top of each. So Rebbe Yishmael Rebbe Nosson Kiloina all we have to do is you can take a look at the top one as if it's not there and therefore you look as if you only have six in each one of these things and you're going to be okay. Doesn't seem to be an issur of bal tosif. Ah frechting Gemara of Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak how you got to take the bazicha lavaina and put it on the top of the stack and if you're allowing there to be a seventh loaf on each one of these two stacks by saying oh we'll just be imagine as if it's not there. Yeah but your bazicha lavaina are not sitting on top of it. To which the Gemara says no we've had this before already. Amar lei Rav Chizda Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak Amar lei Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak Rav Chizda Rebbe Elazar de'Amai de'Amar al means bisamoch. It doesn't mean on top of you know literal sense it means nearby. De'itanya because we have in the braisa Rebbe Yishmael bar Nachman bar Yitzchak Amar Rav Chizda al means bisamoch. Ah tam amar bisamoch o ein al al mamash maybe it means mamash. I don't think so. I remember the sakais al aron v'al hakapores you're going to put the curtain on the aron well heavy amar al means bisamoch because it wasn't on the aron it was near the aron. So al means also bisamoch. Same thing bazicha lavaina could be near the lechem. The mishna said kol kelim sheb'mikdash etc. were all lengthwise in the heichal. So tanna Rabbanan learned in a braisa kol kelim sheb'mikdash arkan l'orech shel bayis. Their length went along the length of the actual base hamikdash meaning they were east to west. Chutz mi'aron she'orech v'roach shel bayis. That was perpendicular that was on a north south direction. The kachaya munach that's the way it was put. The kachaya badav munachin and so were its badim the poles. So my Gemara what are you talking about? Because the badim were attached to the aron what are you saying? So Amar kachaya munach mi'de badav kachaya munachin. They put the aron like northwest in that direction in order that this way the poles the badim could be east west. U'badim minon and how do you know that the badim need to go from east to west? De'itanya because the braisa says v'ya'arichu habadim and they should extend them meaning pull them towards the paroches that separate the kodesh kodashim from the kodesh. Maybe I can post a picture of what that render looked like. Yachol lo yihiye na'ayan b'paroches. Amar I thought that the actual badim wouldn't reach the paroches. Talmud leimar v'yiro that the edges of the badim were actually seen from the other side. Now if yiro if it only had said in the pasuk that they were seen yachol yihiye mikaron b'paroches v'yeitzan I could have thought that maybe you actually should poke through and see them on the other side. Talmud leimar the pasuk says lo yiro achutza. So how could it say how do you not see them but also see them? Turning over to De'ich kin boltin b'paroches as the diamond kimain shnei ishah. They were pushed up against the paroches but they didn't go all the way through the paroches as if they were the dadei ishah which can be seen their form underneath the woman's clothing without really seeing them. Shenemar tzura amar daydili ben shadai yalin. And of course there is this kind of mothering idea of the dadei ishah that we're getting a yenika from that and somehow kol Yisrael was getting that also from the aron from its kedusha. Now there is a question over here that Rashi actually grapples with that l'chara b'bayis rishon there was no curtain it was a big wall. And b'bayis sheini when they had a curtain there was no aron. So l'chara this was never really nega. So Rashi seems to learn this was like an additional paroches that was only there for tznius but it wasn't there the actually dividing between the kodesh kodashim and the kodesh. Frechting Gemara minon debadav l'pusya aron havei yosavei. How do you know that these badim of the aron went along the width of the aron meaning they were going east to west? Dilma l'orech of the aron havei yasvei maybe they should go along the longer side of the aron also and therefore the aron itself should go east to west. So Amar Rebbe Yehuda trei gavrei b'amtzah u'pagalei mistagalei. Can't be because there wouldn't be enough room for two people to stand in the one and a half amah area. And since it was important for two people to stand in that area when they were traveling with the aron because two people would be in front of the aron two people would be behind the aron. So if the badim were along the length of the aron the space between the badim would only be one and a half amos which would not be enough for two men to stand. Frechting Gemara minon de'arba havei darlei. How do you know there were four people that carried the aron? Maybe only two people could carry the aron. One in the front one in the back. De'ichsev because the pasuk says like about the people who carried the aron then nasu hakohanim that's trei. And nasu hamikdash nami trei. So we see from the psukim themselves that's a four person job to carry the aron. Tanna Rabbanan learned in the braisa asarah shulchanos asah ha'melech. ha'melech made 10 shulchanos for the base hamikdash. Shenemar vayos shulchanos asarah v'yanach b'heichal chamisha mi'yamin v'chamisha mi'smol. He made 10 shulchanos five on the right five on the left. Im timer chamisha mi'yamin apasach if you want to say this means there were from me there were five shulchanos to the right of the doorway chamisha mi'smol apasach if that's what it means and five more on the left of the doorway sim kein matzinu shulchan b'darom come to chais now the shulchan is going to be in the darom the southern part of the heichal because the doorway is on the eastern side. So you're standing in the eastern side facing into the heichal everything on the left side is going to be the darom. But Torah amar v'shulchan titen al tzafon. It's got to be on the northern side. Shel Moshe b'emtza the ikar one that Moshe Rabbeinu made was in the middle. Chamisha mi'yamin v'chamisha mi'smol but all of them were on the northern side of the actual heichal itself. Tanna Rabbanan learned in the braisa eser menoros asah imagine ha'melech made 10 menoros for the base hamikdash. Shenemar vayos eser menoros zahav asher k'mishpatam vayiten b'heichal chamisha mi'yamin v'chamisha mi'smol. Now im timer chamisha mi'yamin apasach v'chamisha mi'smol apasach sim kein matzinu menorah b'tzafon it's going to come out that you're going to have the menorah on the northern side. But Torah amar shel menorah nocha chashulchan it's opposite the shulchan meaning it's got to be on the southern side. Shel Moshe b'emtza v'chamisha mi'yamin v'chamisha mi'smol. Tony chada mechatzai bayis u'lifnei mayu munachin one braisa says that these shulchanos were in the halfway point of the heichal and inward. Tony chada mechatzai bayis u'lifnei mayu munachin one says they were from one third and inward. V'lo kasha marko choshev base kodesh hakodashim b'dei heichal u'marko choshev base kodesh hakodashim b'dei heichal. Do you chashvin the space of the kodesh kodashim when you're saying the space? So that'll determine whether it's halfway point or if it's a third. Tanna Rabbanan the braisa says mizrach u'ma'arav munachin that the shulchanos were lengthwise from east to west. Divrei Rebbe Elazar bar Rebbe Shimon amar tzafon v'darom it was north to south. So my timer Rebbe why would Rebbe say they're going east to west? Because gam menorah menorah mizrach u'ma'arav so af ani nami mizrach u'ma'arav. U'menorah guf minon how do you know the menorah itself is from east to west? Mi'de'ichsev b'ner ma'aravi ya'arichu aron v'gam l'fnei Hashem. Michlal d'chulu lav l'fnei Hashem. It sounds like all the other ones are not l'fnei Hashem only the be is along the east west line. Now you can at least have one particular ner be that ner ma'aravi. Now Rebbe Elazar bar Rebbe Shimon mi'taima why are they saying the shulchanos were north to south? Because gam aron aron tzafon v'darom af ani nami tzafon v'darom. The Rebbe nami ligmar aron why doesn't Rebbe want to learn also from the aron? Because donin chutz mi'chutz the kelim they were outside the kodesh kodashim v'einam donin chutz [snorts] mi'bifnim like the aron which is in bifnim. Rebbe Elazar bar Rebbe Shimon ligmar menorah because amar lo he'll tell you because menorah gufa tzafon v'darom havei munach. The menorah itself was takah north to south. So you can't learn that as a makar that the shulchan should be east to west. Ah ela achsav ya'arichu aron v'vanav which sounds like only one of the nerus was l'fnei Hashem and therefore the menorah l'chara had been east to west in order to only have one of them l'fnei Hashem. No because the metzadei l'chu atzudei. According to Rebbe Elazar bar Rebbe Shimon it was the wicks of those other nerus that were turned towards the center and only the center one was turned towards the kodesh kodashim. So that's the l'fnei Hashem but in a chanam the menorah itself could have been north to south. De'itanya as the braisa teaches us el mul paneiha menorah ya'iru sheva hanerus melamed shehayu metzadedin paneihem klap ner emtzai. Right as we all learned when like the every one of the different wicks is pointing towards the center and the center one was going towards the west in the direction of the kodesh kodashim. Amar Rebbe Nosson mikan she'emtza'i mishubach. From here you see that the middle one is mishubach which is a reference to actually the Levi getting all four psukim if you're doing kri'as ha'Torah and one of the aliyahs has to have more psukim it's going to be that middle one the Levi. That's where Rashi brings from the Gemara Megillah on daf chaf alef. Now we're still working through this whole sugia but we're going to stop here pick it up with the Bishlam Amar Mizrach u'Ma'arav for Monday's daf.