Menachos Daf 91

All right, today's daf tzadi alef, Sunday's daf. And boy, if you love drashas, then today's daf is for you. Because today we're going to go through all these different carbonos to figure out the muker that you need or don't need in the nesachim. We started this yesterday on Shabbos's daf, and we were talking specifically about the possuk of adam ki yakriv mikem korban lashem im habehama min habakar umin hatzoin. Why do we need min habakar umin hatzoin? That in case a person makes a korban stam, they don't have to bring both the animals, but they could be rotzeh echad maybe, rotzeh shnayim maybe. That's what we were up to yesterday. And now we're picking it up three lines from the bottom of the amud on tzadi amud beis. Virab Yonasan. According to Rab Yonasan, why would I need a possuk to say that two animals are not needed to be mikayem this neder? And why would Rab Yonasan be the issue? Because ha omer, he holds throughout Shas ad sheparta l'chol hakosuv yachdav. Until the Torah says that they have to be together, we can assume they're all separate. So why would I assume that you have to bring both a bakar and tzoin to be mikayem your neder? To which the Gemara answers, "Ishtrei because salka da'ata kamina." Moving over to amud alef, "Ho'il v'siv umin hatzoin, it's kamandich siv yachdav dami." It's just like a yachdav. So even Rab Yonasan would require such a muker to know that you only have to bring one of the two animals. Okay, u Rab Yeshaya, who famously argues with Rab Yonasan throughout Shas, de'omer af al gav d'lo ichsev yachdav, kamandich siv yachdav dami. So then, liboy kra, you should need to have a possuk to tell me that you only need to have one animal to be mikayem your neder? So the Gemara huk siv im ayil carboni min habakar, and then the Torah separately says v'im min hatzoin carboni. So from the fact that the Torah separates into different psukim, is mashma that you can only bring one of them as a korban. And therefore, Rab Yeshaya doesn't need any possuk in the parsha of nesachim to teach the halacha. Chavida. What about Rab Yonasan? Ishtrei, he's going to need the possuk by nesachim to tell me that you can be mikayem the neder with one animal because salka da'ata kamina anei mili bimfarish. If a guy either says min habakar or min hatzoin, I will bistama, let's say he didn't specify what kind of an animal he wants to bring, lay simu tarvayhu, you might think to need to bring both of those kinds of animals, both tzoin and bakar to be mikayem your neder. Kamashma lan, the possuk by nesachim tells us that you can be mikayem it with only one animal. Amar Mar, "Trei dami nain." Now this of course was listed, we said it was the O Zevach, and now we're repeating that. Talmud Lema O Zevach, we're marbe also a carbon toda requires nisachim. Practical amar, why do I need an O Zevach drasha? Oh, to toda love Zevachu. We are already listed that a shlamim is part of the list that gets the nisachim because it's a Zevach. So a toda is also a Zevach. So it's drash, I need that because how could I have a chamina if you can lechem bado? Very interesting Gemara. Since there are lechamin by the carbon toda, lay to buy nisachim, it somehow takes the place of that add on of the nisachim because you already have the lechamin. Very interesting. The Rashba really digs deeper because the maisen the nisachim are poured on the misbeach, the lechamin are eaten by the kohanim, so why would I think one would take care of the other? But they're all really of the same ilk that they all have exeres a casa to bring. It's just that they have a different destination, misbeach, kohanim, but this is like a pretty telling Rashba and Gemara here about the way to view the nisachim and the lechamin. Practical amar, um aish na me aisle nazir, the eka bahade lechem uboy nisachim. So clearly, just because you're bringing lechamin, that wouldn't be a reason to think you don't need nisachim as evident by the aisle nazir. And for the Gemara, sakade de chamina, hasem shnei minin. Over there there's only two different kinds of lechamin brought with the aisle of the nazir, and that's why you might need nisachim, too. But hacha, by the toda, are boss minin, you have four different flavors of lechamin as we know, and therefore maybe that's why you don't need nisachim. Kamash malan, even by carbon toda you need nisachim. Practical amar, balachte rachmana lefalai neder o even nedava, veloi by oila. You don't need to have the oila because an oila can be brought as a neder nedava, so lechara it's bechlala neder nedava. And for the Gemara, iloi cause of rachmana oila had not spoken out specifically, have a mina v'asisa mish al Hashem is a klal. All carbonas to Hashem. Lefalai neder even nedava, that's a specific prat. Lo asis mechni cherech chos bechlala, and therefore klal u prat u klal, ya to done elakena prat. And what's that? Maha prat meforesh dover she eno bo al chet. Of kol she eno bo al chet. O tzi chatas v'asham she eno bo al chet. Chatas v'asham come al yedai chet. But ovi bechara maisen Pesach she eno bo al chet. Talmud lema oila to be my my all carbon ice even the ones that are not becoming as a result of an avaira. So we're going to be my carbon ice or pesach because those are in the category of as they are not for the highest but now that it does say cloud product my marvelous light. What do you being marvelous you did the cloud the product for the my product chain of I made just like the product meaning the oil in this case is valid referring to someone who's not in that carbon because it's an oil that's being brought in the after in my life I made any carbon that you're not already to bring is also going to be in the what's that coming to include blood carbon meaning let's say a gave birth that animal is brought as a and it also requires and it's true requires but I made if you have an excess of a carbon it will also require but also machine in the and also in the that now has to just graze that happens in the case of let's see owner of the died or already got the copper already another animal that also needs but and all of the carbons that were in they also require the even though they're not going to be but in order to be a carbon it needs Titus actually asks why do I need a dress for that it's a carbon that's the first mission is why would I think it wouldn't require the it's just a regular carbon at this point all right but continues the but I should the by the that we learn you only need to bring one animal when you are not David Stone so the following another between the nether and the nether teaching me maybe you have to bring both kinds the nether and the nether and until that point you won't be to bring the with your nether and also and also you got to bring the even if you're only bringing a single nether well honey who always needs the tire to tell you to separate them but that man has done puts them together and you have to separate them why why do I need the over here? We never assumed to put and together according to and I see and I see but I see if you bring both only need to bring one set of so I need to bring one set for each. Next part of the you have to have for the that come with your holidays your what's the for that one? What's that coming to teach me? Or maybe as a and the or maybe and therefore and therefore only need one set of so that extra to say that one set of is needed for each one even when they're of the same kind of flavor of and why is the next maybe I don't have a open when you're learning this one. Why is the next over there what's that going to be teaching me? It's comes to tell you that you might only need to bring a separate set of when you bring and as a or as a or the stay kind of or maybe two one is a one is a or so then same and therefore I only need one set of a the tire says that you need a separate set of for each one even when they're the same kind of carbon. For next one the following or a what's the there? Because the stay or I will the stay the stay when you bring two as a or two as a or same or nedava, shlamim nedava is a shlamim nedava. Same kind of idea. Kamash one, the Torah says he needs a separate set of nesachim for each one, even when they're completely the same, both as the kind of carbon and in the kind of nether/nedava that was made. I might have thought this nedava bringing separate nesachim is only when it's two different kinds of animals, like either bakar or Maybe if it's the same kind of animal you can bring one kind of nesachim. Kamash one, even according to R' Akiva, you need to have two sets of nesachim, even if they're the same kind of animal. Fracta Gemara Now we're holding in pasuk bet already. This pasuk telling you that you need separate nesachim is also obvious. Why do I need the Torah to tell me this? Not literally but like at the same time when you're bringing all the carbonos Kamash one, you need separate nesachim for each one. Okay, the end of the Mishnah says When we're listing the exceptions that these carbonos don't need nesachim, but the chatas of a metzora and its asham do require nesachim. Ushleisha So in that pasuk Not as a separate carbon. But vadayin iniyadeim to unanesachim lav. All that's just talking about the mincha, it doesn't give us an indication whether or not Talmud L'eimer Which seems to be completely meyutar because we already know earlier that you need to have the nesachim for anything that's an ola or a zevach. Zevach zu chatas metzora That's how we know you need to have nesachim for all these different carbonos that the metzora brings. Frack, dig amara of the tape of late metzora. They're all the carbonos. So why wouldn't they all just require the sacham for that reason turning over tamid base? The omar mar, cuz we already learned that a brice of a nozir that a sham this is the drasha that the nozir puts his hair underneath the the osham instead of the shlamim, he still is mikayem his tamid lemar zevach. So we see that the word zevach can teach you both about a chatis and an osham. So why do I need to have the zevach and the word to tell me that the chatis and the osham of the metzora also need a sacham? And for the gamara no, because that of the chatis and the osham being learned from the same possible only when they're the same being brought for the same matore for the same tachlis. The osham the chatis they're coming for two different reasons like the case of the chatis and the osham of the metzora. But in cry I need two different okay the brice had said zevach frack the gamara chatis osham the nozir. How do you know it's talking about the chatis of the metzora? Maybe it's talking about the sacham will be needed for the chatis and the osham of the nozir. Why did the tanya cuz we learned in the brice the carbonos of a nozir o mincha but o be shlamo those are the two different carbonos that need so say o be shlamo. I feel maybe it's talking about the chatis that the nozir brings and that that chatis also required a sacham. No, tamid lemar says zevach shlamo now ayil is the shlamim of the ayil of the nozir is already included amongst the other carbonos that he brought. So why was it separated that the torah says you have to bring the sacham for it specifically about the ayil nozir? That my ayil both o nedava just like this ayil of the shlamim that's very unique that it comes nedava which generally speaking is a neder and a nedava that's how shlamim brought. So both neder and nedava will require a sacham and this is now the chatis and the osham of the nozir because they're never brought nedava. So therefore there's no you'd ever bring them sacham with those. Okay then the brice had said oylas metzora but how do you know? The oylas nedava. There's no way that that oylas is going to need a sacham because it is going to learn from the end of the to Tanya Rabbi Natan La Kaves Zoo lettuce. How is it to be a show my sister Solomon that when you mess up your count of your my sir behima so the mission or the says you have to now bring the 11th also as a so even though typically the brings but there's a special say that such a will need Solomon Shea to occur that which is at 11 is going to be more than the original one. So since the lettuce is already included from the the must be coming to include the of so I think I might have read it wrong before and it wasn't that the doesn't have it's just that we already know it from the rather is another to answer the question. What requires three rebuying have you ever because brings three different and so therefore it's because there's three it's more likely that the Torah is referring to the more than the does Okay why don't we need the next talking about the we already know that it needs the specific that Aaron brought which is on for the we know that already which is the telling me that he brings it on which is actually very interesting because we're calling a that has to save on is there's what to discuss there but anyway the why I might not think that of Aaron be included because honey to see more the maybe the of is not included in that of and therefore that's why I need to have a separate my say that which we say does require even though it's a carbon for she's a but the same is not a way is mine like a keeper that brought so one of the to tell us that the extra also requires I why don't we need that tell me for the the palagus what's a palagus a palagus is an interesting word. We know that a keves is the first year of the sheep's life. And after the keves graduates into its second year, it's called an isle. But there's kind of like a ben shmoshes period in that 30 days where it's not quite a keves or an isle and we're calling that a palgus. The word palgus is very interesting. The Pharisees says it's actually a word that refers to like the palug, like half. And Rabbi Gross had an interesting suggestion. He says it's very nice to say that the word palgus has the palug word in it to indicate half. But what's the at the end. So he wanted to suggest it's palug samach, half of 60, which is 30. That's the 30 days between the keves kite and the isle kite. In those 30 days, your your palug samach is the palgus din. Anyway, the gamara here is saying that if you are bringing a palgus, you still have to have nisachim. So the word bear you that a palgus is considered like its own entity and therefore that's why you need to have a pasuk to tell me you need nisachim for a palgus. That's none because we learned in the first paragraph of maseches para, he krive if a person brings a palgus, maybe a love niskay isle. The ain isle light mizifrayin doesn't count as his carb. Meaning if he was michayev himself to bring an isle or a keves, he's not michayev it by bringing a palgus. And the omer of Yechana, oil oil is le rabis it's a palgus. That it needs the nisachim of the isle. But the omer maisi umasni disveiku, that he says the palgus, he brings the mincha and he brings the mincha of an isle and he makes a tnai because he has to be chashboning the sfeikus here because he looks at a palgus as a safek, like ben shmoshes essentially. Is there kroler rebuyei sfeika? Why don't you not? You just follow the regular rules of sfeikus. It sounds like this gamara should be negia here to the machlokes Rishonim about safek deraisa or lo chomer being deraisa or derabona. Just just because it seems like it would be negia how to deal with this animal. But the gamara actually gives in vadei le bar pada kasha. In the chana according to bar pada, we're not going to know what the word oil is coming to teach us. All right, let's now move on to pasuk alef. Oil oil oil oil oil oil oil oil oil oil oil oil oil oil oil oil oil oil oil oil oil oil oil oil year of the sheep. In the same way we make a distinction between ben niskei par l'niskei ayil. The same kind of an idea. An ayil is a calf and a par is a grown-up one. There's only one kind of niskei brought irrespective of how old it is. Then the pasuk says ayil ayil ba't ayil l'ayil. And for the gemara sh'chilik koso ben niskei ben shnayim l'niskei ben shnayim. In the same way yachol l'chaleik ben niskei ben shnayim l'niskei ben shalesh. Maybe there's enough kamina for niskei between its second and third year. Am l'eimar ayil ayil echad. It's all one category. Ayil l'se bakvasim am l'eimar. What's that pasuk teaching me? It seems also like a repeat. And for the gemara sh'chilik koso ben niskei keves l'niskei ayil. So yachol l'chaleik ben niskei keves l'niskei rachel. Maybe the gender matters of the male or female-ness of this animal. Am l'eimar ayil l'se bakvasim. And ayil izim am l'eimar. So l'fish sh'chilik koso ben niskei keves l'niskei ayil. Yachol l'chaleik niskei gadol l'niskei tzair. That's a young goat and an older goat. Am l'eimar ayil izim. We put them all together in one category. We're going to stop here and take a break from these drashas until tomorrow's class.