Menachos Daf 90

All right, daf tzadi, shabbos is daf. We're going to pick it up on pay tes amud beis, 12 lines from the bottom. More about the keves that's brought with the omer. Rebbe Yochanan says the following thing. Omer Rebbe Yochanan, asham metzora sheshochta sheloleshma. Let's say you have an asham of a metzora who shochted it sheloleshma, meaning for a different asham. So what do we know about a korban that's brought sheloleshma? As we remember from the beginning of Sefarim, that it's still a kosher korban, just not al al leshem ba'alav. So let's say this asham metzora who shochted it sheloleshma, Dr. Yochanan achidish ton nesachim. It still requires to have its associated nesachim brought with it. Because an asham metzora bederech klal requires nesachim, meaning it's minchas nesachim that comes along with it. So just because it's not al al leshem ba'alav doesn't mean you're off the hook from bringing its nesachim. Continues Rebbe Yochanan, she miyata omer kein pasaltai. If you don't bring its associated nesachim, you've now pasuled the korban. Not because nesachim are ma'akev, the Keren Orah makes this point. Nesachim themselves are not ma'akev. However, the tzura of this korban is to be brought with nesachim. So by not bringing its nesachim, you're now forcing it to be a different kind of korban which doesn't exist and therefore it's going to be pasuled. Rashi amar maskif le Rebbi Menashe Vergada. El miyata de cheshbon Rebbi Yochanan is correct, keves habo im omer sheshochta sheloleshma, tehei minchasav kefula. You should double its mincha. Why? She miyata omer kein pasaltai. Just like Rebbi Yochanan is saying that in asham metzora requires nesachim, so the mincha that's brought along with the keves of the omer also gets two isronis and therefore it should also require that kefula kait, meaning the doubling of the mincha. Vetamich shel shachar sheshochta sheloleshma, and also likewise, the tamich shel shachar if it was also brought sheloleshma, it needs its halachos. Yehei ton shnei gezirin bakain echad. It's going to need the two pieces of wood on the mizbeach by one kain, meaning its halacha. She miyata omer kein pasaltai. And vetamich shel bein arba'im sheshochta sheloleshma will also need gezirin beshnei kayanim, which is its halacha. She miyata omer kein pasaltai. In other words, every korban's respective nuanced halacha has to be carried through even though it's not al al leshem ba'alav because otherwise you're pasuling the korban. To which the Gemara says, okay, en hanami. So why didn't we bring those examples? El omer Abaye, chada minayo noka. The braisa only gave one example of the asham metzora, but it's really the same halacha for all the other kinds of korbanos as well. But Rebbi Abaye amar, or maybe the girsa is Rebbi Avraham amar, bishlema hanach oilas nedava. The other korbanos are takka different because be'etzem, the korban tamid or the keves that's brought with the omer is be'etzem a korban oila. Moving over tamid oila if she ilei chazulo ilei chova. So even if they're not properly brought as an oilas chova, meaning they were now brought leshma, but karvei le'oilas nedava, you can have an oilas nedava from these korbanos. So let's say you messed up and you didn't do those other side halachos, but they have the tzura of an oilas nedava. El hahacha, by the asham metzora where it was done sheloleshma, ilei mugmas lebei milsei. If you don't do it right, so asham nedava mi eika. There's no such thing as an asham nedava. You have to have done the aveira which is mechayev the asham. So therefore, that particular asham metzora has to have the nesachim just like the asham metzora that was brought leshma. And tanya kavosei Rebbi Yochanan that an asham metzora sheshochta sheloleshma, oi shelalei nosan midamei algabei beheinayis. He didn't do that particular halacha. Hareizu oila legabei mizbeach veton nesachim. It's asham acher lehatira. It's just the metzora needs another asham to finish the job. But the braisa is clearly going like Rebbi Yochanan that the asham metzora if it was done sheloleshma still requires nesachim. So like the mishna, kol midos, all of the measurements, and here we're talking about the dry measurements, all of the measurements she bemikdash hayu nigdoshos. Nigdoshos means they were overfilled. Chutz mishel kain gadol shehaya gedusha lesaycha. By the kain gadol which then had to be split because the chavitin were split one and a half in the morning, one in the after afternoon, that wasn't gadolish, it wasn't overfilled because it was so critical for it to be exact. Now why were they nigdoshos, all the measurements in the Beis Hamikdash? Presumably because it's more of a koved and a more hashuv way to bring these menachos. I saw Rebbi Zilberstein in the Chashukei Chemed says that when one brings shalach manos or if they're giving a matana to somebody hashuv, rather than a large plate with smaller items on there, it's kedai to have a plate like overflowing with stuff. And I guess shrink wrap it on there so it doesn't fall off because you see from this mishna that that's the more bekovodik way to present. Kind of a creative application. Anyway, the mishna continues. Midos alacha, legabei the liquid measurements, beirusain kaidish. Beirusain, as we were saying, the over amount with the part that goes above the rim, or according to Rashi in one loshon that maybe goes off the side of the kaili, dribbling down the sidewall of the kaili perhaps. But certainly the overflow of the kaili. So all that is kaidish by the liquids. Umidos hayavesh, but by dry measurements, beirusain is going to be chol. Rebbi Akiva amar, midos alacha is kaidish because there's a kedusha applied to the liquid measurements, lefikach beirusain kaidish. But midos hayavesh is chol, lefikach beirusain chol. So according to Rebbi Akiva, the reason why the dry beirusain are never kaidish is because the kaili never is makdish any of those kinds of measurements. We're going to see that according to Rebbi Akiva it's because you're makdish them bepeh, but it's not because of the kaili. The Keren Orah, when he reads Rashi, it seems to him that according to Rebbi Akiva there's no kedusha at all on the dry measurements and he can't be saychel that. He thinks there's a chilluk between kedushas haguf and kedushas dam. But you can't tell me that's mamash chulin when it's here inside the Beis Hamikdash. Akiva that's Rebbi Akiva. Rebbi Asi amar, lo mishum zeh. Not because of this that the beirusain of the very yavesh is going to be chulin. Aval ad dehei gedish, not like Rebbi Akiva, ela shalach na'akar. Everything in a liquid measurement gets moved around. Vayavesh ein na'akar. So when I pour something initially into a kaili, that stuff that I initially poured in gets moved to the top or gets moved around. But when you put dry measurements into a kaili, wherever it landed, it stays put. And therefore only that which is inside the kaili becomes kaidish. But what's outside, the beirusain are not kaidish. Said the Gemara, money, who's the tanna of our mishna? What's so challenging about finding the tanna of our mishna? Said the Gemara, because here Rebbi Meir, who we had learned back on the mishna on pay zayin amud aleph, that there was only one kaili that was kaidish because there were two different single isaron kailim and one of them was kaidish and one of them wasn't. So according to Rebbi Meir, there's only that one kaili. And he wrote bonan chada umucha kavei. There weren't any kailim that were kaidish. It was only one kaili and it was muchak, it was moved out on top. So who's our mishna? Certainly can't be the Rabbanan, it doesn't even work with Rebbi Meir. Amar Rebbi Chisda, leilam Rebbi Meir, even though it was only one measurement, mai kol midos? The mishna is sprach that has all midos, which sounds like multiple kailim. It just means kol medidos, all of its measuring was done with the gedisha, with the heaping amount on top. Then the mishna said, midos alacha beirusain kaidish, as opposed to the dry ones that the beirusain are not kaidish. So mai kamiflugei? What's the machlokes between Rebbi Akiva and Rebbi Asi in the mishna? So tanna kamma savar, midos alacha nimshacha bein mibifnim umebein mibachutz. According to the tanna kamma, liquid measurements had kedusha both on the inside and the outside of the kaili. And therefore the beirusain is considered outside the kaili and therefore it's still kaidish. Midos hayavesh nimshacha mibifnim velo nimshacha mibachutz. But by dry measurements, only the inside of the kaili was the kaidish tikka part and not the outside. And therefore the beirusain are not going to become kaidish. But Rebbi Akiva savar, midos alacha nimshacha bein mibifnim umebein mibachutz, but midos hayavesh lo nimshacha kol ikar. By midos hayavesh, they bechlal were not kaidish. Therefore certainly the beirusain are not going to be kaidish. And as we mentioned, the only reason why the taich was going to be kaidish is because of the kedushas hapayis. But that's not going to be naga'a to the beirusain because you don't have in mind for the beirusain. You only have in mind what's inside the actual kaili. Rebbi Asi savar, idivi idivi nimshacha mibifnim velo nimshacha mibachutz. By yavesh and by lach, they were both nimshacha mibifnim, but not mibachutz. Vahacha ein ta'ama. What's the difference between the beirusain of the lach and the beirusain of the yavesh? It's because the lach is na'akar, moves around like we said. Umigavo deman ikasi. So what do you think the makeup of the beirusain are? It's what was already inside. But by yavesh ein na'akar, it doesn't move around and therefore what's in the beirusain are not going to become kaidish. Said the Gemara, mai bein na'akar mai chovei? What's the difference whether the devar lach moved around and was once in the kaili now is on the outside? Gavra lemaita tzoch kamachavin. Lema'aseh, the hekdesh is only on that which he's going to need for his korban. So just because it passed through the kaili and now is on the beirusain. Now it's in the beirusain and he never meant to be makdish that part. To which the Gemara says, amar Rebbi Dimi, arshishna mishmei deRav, zo is amar es klisharis makajin shel midos. You don't have to have specific kavana to be makdish. And therefore the devar lach that was inside the kaili and now ends up in the beirusain, even if it's technically not being diskaidish from the kaili anymore because you don't need to have their das, it will still work. Ravina amar lei, ein amar al klisharis ein makajin al midos. But ugzeira shema yamer mai'asei in miklisharis lachail. There's a derabbanan dikidin that we should treat all of this beirusain as if it was kaidish because people shouldn't say that you could take off the kedusha from a klisharis without having a pidyon. And even though it would be justified because it requires das, it doesn't look like that. It looks like it was in a klisharis and now it no longer requires any kind of pidyon to go out lechulin. This idea of ein makajin al midos, there is a chidush of the Mikdash David that limits that that you don't have to have the das for it to have a particular kedusha, but rather just that the kaili should do its job legabei being makdish these things. Apparently that answers a whole bunch of kashas. So just be aware there is a Mikdash David with a chidush about ein makajin al midos. It doesn't mean the das of the actual kedusha, but just that it should do its job. Anyway, we have this from Ravina that says it's because of this dinderabbanan. But said the Gemara, mai'aseh Rebbi Zeira, how can you say that Ravina that we make such a dinderabbanan? I'm going to ask you a kasha from the following mishna coming up on daf kuf. Seider es alachem es habizichin lachar shabbos. If you mesader the lechem uponim in the bizichin lachar oina, after shabbos, let's say on Sunday. Dehechtera es habizichin beshabbos and then you did the bizichin on the following shabbos, it's going to be pasuled. Why? Because the lechem uponim have to be there for a full week and that's when you burn the levona on the mizbeach and the kayanim will eat the lechem uponim. But for whatever reason, let's say the lechem uponim were only put there after shabbos on a Sunday. So when the following shabbos arrives, the lechem and the levona will only have been on the shulchan for six days, not the seven that are needed. Muchsar zman and therefore it's going to be pasuled. So said yeah, so what do you do? How do you make sure that the lechem and the levona can stay kosher? Yaniachanu leshabbos habo, you got to leave the lechem and the levona there for the next shabbos, the second shabbos. Shafilu alachem yamim rabim, ein bechach klum, there's no problem. Now if Rebbi Ami if Ravina is so correct that you would be geizer about these beirusain that that lest people shouldn't think they go out lechulin, so asu nami leima mezeira shema yamer maskidin bechlisharis. There should be this dinderabbanan that should pasul the lechem uponim because people are going to say you can put something in a klisharis and just leave it there because even though we're saying there is no psulina by leaving the lechem on the shulchan for so long, but people won't realize that and they're going to think that you can leave things in a klisharis and not have any problems of lina as long as it's there. To which the Gemara says, a very basic chilluk between the lechem uponim that are in the Beis Hamikdash to the beirusain midos that are in the kailim because penim machutz karamis, you're asking a kasha from the interior of the Beis Hamikdash to the outside, by the azara. Penim lav kulei alma yadi, nobody knows what's going on inside the Beis Hamikdash except for the few kayanim there is reason that are inside and seeing what's going on. but kulei alma yadi, what's going on outside of the everybody is seeing it and people are going to have a misconception that the are going to go out to without any kind of it's not we learned in the fourth of the mice are in the that is all about mice race things that are extra so the extra that were designated for what do they use it for they use it for when there wasn't any usage of the they didn't want to leave it empty wasn't a cupboard for the so they would use the mice are in the then so my mice are in the then that which we're talking about that's what they use it as the mice are in the it's like we learned in a different mission in from the so may if someone himself to give to the a certain amount of flour at a price of four of flour per and then afterwards the price of flour went up so now you have a argument with the how much do I have to give bottom line is you're always going to lose the always wins every one of these kind of cases is the may you got to supply the original price of four per you got to give more turning over to the the other way around if you are yourself to give flour to the at a time when the price of one would yield three of flour but then it went down in value so now it costs a seller to get four of flour then may you still got to do more amount because again the always wins as we say she had all of so according to the mice are in the is this extra amount that the gets in such a situation and the of that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that it's the that the is what would be and the would be for meaning they'd be burned away and the are given to the that's just like that we see the for the and the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of all required but all those do not require these are all different of the except for the which can be sometimes we'll see in the why they do not get all of do not and that is all do require those are the exceptions to the rules it says that when you bring a to whether it's an or not the maybe every that goes up on the fire of the requires all of the now how do you know that requires all of the and is the general term that includes a how do you know that how do you know that a requires all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all because that is any other than those that were specifically will require so why are the specifically singled out in another just like you can't bring it just like you can't bring the as a and it requires all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all of the all