Menachos Daf 82

All right, Duff pay base Friday's Duff. You're up to shiny and we're going to pick it up on pay aleph amid base eight lines from the bottom of the yomid the words vilayavi machite ma'aser sheini. There could have been a two dots right before that cuz the Mishnah had said that you can't bring these lachamim from actual chitim of ma'aser sheini even when you said you're going to bring it from ma'aser sheini. But you can't bring it from the actual wheat of ma'aser sheini ella mimoyis ma'aser sheini. You could spend the money of ma'aser sheini and make the lachamim from that. So after the maror of Nachman bar Rav Chisda amri tarvayu lo shanu el michit ma'aser sheini. The Mishnah only is telling us this halacha that you can't bring the carbon taita lachamim from that mamish ma'aser sheini dika wheat. Aval michitin halukochais mimoyis ma'aser sheini yavi. If you take wheat that was purchased with moyis ma'aser sheini, that's okay. It's only when the actual source wheat is the ma'aser sheini, that's the problem. So Yosef Rebbi Yirmiya kamay d'Rav Zeira. The Yosef d'Kalmar lo shanu this limitation that you can't bring the lachamim of the taita is only el michitin ma'aser sheini. Aval michitin halukochais mimoyis ma'aser sheini like we just said, yavi. You could bring. Amar Rebbi Zeira Rebbi Ami amar kain. Did you really say this? Ani amar it's kind of a unique expression. Reb Razner pointed out that omer ani is something that's unique that Rebbi would say. Here interestingly enough Reb Zeira is speaking to him and says ani amar I say afilu michitin halukochais bimoyis ma'aser sheini lo yavi. You can't bring the lachamim of the taita even from wheat that was bought with moyis ma'aser sheini which is like this middle ground. Ve'eima and I'll tell you time adi di. Ve'eima time adi dach. I'll tell you my cheshbon and I can even tell you your cheshbon. adi time adi dach. The first thing I'm going to do is tell you your reason. Taida meheicha key alif slo. What's the makor that a carbon taita could be purchased with moyis ma'aser sheini? It's mishlamim. The whole parsha of carbon taita is brought in the parsha of shlamim. Moving over to mad aleph v'shlamim sham sham mimaiser. In shlamim itself we know al y'dei g'zeira shava from the parsha of ma'aser sheini cuz it's understood that's what you actually do. You take your me'aras ma'aser sheini, you transfer it out to cash, you take that money to your shlaim and you buy a carbon with it. That's what you do. U'minan since the makor for carbon taita is the parsha of shlamim, so we learn that they're the same. Ma shlamim ain gufan ma'aser just like a carbon shlamim is not the etza ma'aser sheini but it's only bought with moyis ma'aser sheini cuz you can't obviously bring a shlamim from ma'aser sheini. Ma'aser sheini is produce and a shlamim is a carbon. So af taida nami ain gufan ma'aser. So so too the carbon taita including its lachamim can't be mamish ma'aser sheini. It can't be made from grain of ma'aser sheini. But that limits it only to that original ma'aser sheini. V'hani chiti halukochais bimoyis ma'aser sheini nami ain gufan ma'aser. And since these new chitim that were purchased with moyis ma'aser sheini is not the actual ma'aser sheini, so no problem. That could be brought as the lachmei taita. So that's your cheshbon Rebbi. And now Reb Zeira is going to proceed to explain his own cheshbon but before we go further I just want to point out a very important Rashi. The top Rashi over here says what we spoke out that the classic process to take your moyis ma'aser sheini and you buy a shlamim. But Rashi's lashon here is take a look at the third line of Rashi. That masham d'hasam ma'aser afsham d'gabei shlamim ma'aser. Diyochal Reb Rashi l'havi shlamim mimaiser. You can buy a shlamim with your moyis ma'aser sheini. Now that Rashi the achrain pick up on that and says cuz Rashi's mashma diyochal that you're allowed to. Not that you have to but that you are allowed to. This is not poshit at all. There's a different Rashi somewhere that is meduyak fakaret whether or not it's a chiyuv to buy a shlamim with your moyis ma'aser sheini or it's just as this Rashi implies diyochal l'havi shlamim mimaiser. Akupanem this was Reb Zeira explaining Rebbi Yirmiya's heter to buy chitim with the moyis ma'aser sheini. And now we're up to Reb Zeira's own reason to say you can't. Eima time adi di. I'll tell you my cheshbon. Because taida the carbon taita meheicha key alifina l'mishlamim as we said before. U'shlamim sham sham mimaiser as g'zeira shava from the parsha of shlamim. So ma shlamim ain min ma'aser just so just like a carbon shlamim is not from ma'aser sheini. One is the stuff that grows and one is going to be basar. So af taida ain min ma'aser. So also a carbon taita including its lachamim cannot be coming from ma'aser sheini. Lafukei chitin halukochais bimoyis ma'aser sheini d'min ma'aser ninu. So it's that same family of stuff from ma'aser sheini. So even though you're purchasing wheat with a moyis ma'aser sheini, but we learn from shlamim Reb Zeira that it can't be something that's a min of ma'aser sheini. Amar Rebbi Ami. Hamatfis moyis ma'aser sheini l'shlamim. If someone is matfis it means they determine that their ma'aser sheini money should be used to buy a carbon shlamim. Lo kon ushlamim. The money will not be nifas with the kedusha shlamim. My ta'ama d'leima kedusha shlamim l'meichal kedushas ma'aser sheini. This money is already gelt of ma'aser sheini. So you can't add the kedushas shlamim to it. But what should the ba'alim do? They should take the money and buy food and eat it in your shlaim. So ain achanam you could take the money and buy an animal and the animal will have the kedusha shlamim cuz it's ro'i l'mizbeach and therefore it acquires a kedushas aguf more than the kedushas damim of the gelt. But what you can't do is Rebbi Ami is actually put the kedusha shlamim on the money itself. Maisvei frekt the Gemara on Rebbi Ami from the Mishnah in the first perek of maseches ma'aser sheini. The halacha is that if a person takes their moyis ma'aser sheini and they buy an animal for the purpose of a shlamim, that's great. Or if they don't buy the carbon for whatever reason but they buy a chaya which you can't bring for a carbon just want to eat it perhaps. So there'll be kedushas ma'aser sheini on the chaya that you're going to eat as long as you eat it in your shlaim like a good boy. But what happens to the oyer? The oyer goes out l'chulin. That's the halacha. Now the Mishnah in ma'aser sheini is talking about where the guy messed up and did the opposite. Halacha chayal as if he shlamim which obviously is an impossibility. You can't bring a chaya as a carbon shlamim. U'beheima not for a carbon but rather l'basar taiva. He wanted to eat the beheima. So the halacha is lo yotzei oyer l'chulin. That halacha that we said about the chaya that the oyer would go out l'chulin does not happen. But anyway, what's the assumption when you learn such a Mishnah in ma'aser sheini? Lav l'meimra d'koni shlamim. L'gabei that chaya that he bought l'sheim shlamim, it sounds like the shlamim is going to be koni that oyer and it becomes hegdish l'shlamim even though you can't bring it as a carbon. But what do we take out from it? That when moyis ma'aser sheini is going to be me nifas for a shlamim, the kedusha shlamim does take a go on it keneged what we said before that it won't go on the moyis ma'aser sheini. To which the Gemara says nishkein raya because choyit mar Allah on that Mishnah amar Rav lo kon ushlamim. It doesn't mean that the shlamim doesn't actually be koni of the money. U'mayla yotzei oyer l'chulin. And this that we said that the oyer does not become chulin which acher implies it becomes a shlamim. No, achi kamar. Ain ab teirus l'atzais oyer l'chulin. It doesn't even go into the sugya where we would need to say it goes out l'chulin. Because my ta'ama amar Rava nasa k'lokeiach shar l'charisha. If you bought if you bought a shar l'charisha with moyis ma'aser sheini, the ganza zach is assur cuz you have to spend it on food. You have to eat it in your shlaim. And therefore of course the oyer does not go out l'chulin. There's no heter then. So if you buy a chayal l'sheim shlamim of course incorrectly, so you didn't spend the moyis ma'aser sheini correctly cuz you're supposed to buy beheimos for shlamim and chayois for basar taiva. And since you bought the chaya for the wrong reason, you're not going to get that yotzei l'chulin for the oyer. Itmar hamatfis moyis ma'aser sheini l'shlamim. Rebbi Yirmiya amar amar koni. It works. The money does now get the kedusha shlamim. Rebbi Elazar amar lo koni. Doesn't work. Aliba d'Rebbi Yehuda d'amar ma'aser momon hedyotu. According to Rebbi Yehuda who holds that moyis ma'aser sheini is personal property, there's a big shaila if it's momon ba'alim or not. How do we view gelt of ma'aser sheini? So the idea is according to shitas Rebbi Yehuda since it's looked more like personal property, it makes more sense that the kedusha shlamim could be chal on it. So according to shitas Rebbi Yehuda d'kuli amalei pleigei d'koni. But keep pleigei where is there going to be a machlokes? That's aliba d'Rebbi Meir d'amar ma'aser momon gavoha. Manda amar lo koni. According to Rebbi Elazar who holds that the kedusha shlamim does not go on the gelt, that's k'Rebbi Meir. U'manda amar koni but according to Rebbi Yochanan says the kedusha shlamim does go on that gelt even according to Rebbi Meir kivan d'ma'aser kareiv shlamim since ma'aser sheini is supposed to be brought as a carbon shlamim, that's the ideal. So key mispisa lei nami tofis. So when you separate that money of moyis ma'aser sheini for the purpose of a shlamim, so the kedusha shlamim also goes on the money. That's going to be the end game for this money anyway. Frekt the Gemara maisvei d'asrin b'lozer from the braisa. Hamatfis moyis ma'aser sheini l'shlamim. Kishu paytin when you come to be paytin that money, moyis avalein shnei chumshin. You got to add two more fifths to it. Echad l'kaidish v'echad l'ma'aser. One of the chumshin is for the p'diya of kaidish and one chumish is for the p'diyas moyis ma'aser sheini. So you see clearly that the kedusha shlamim does go on the moyis ma'aser sheini. To which the Gemara says not misaber d'Rebbi Akiva lei. That braisa is not going according everybody. How money Rebbi Yehudi which we said is momon ba'alim and therefore that's why the kedusha shlamim will go on the moyis ma'aser sheini. Zakt the Mishnah. This is a direct follow up from the previous Mishnah. Minayin l'eimar hareini alai taida I'm going to bring a carbon taita shelo yavi ella min achulin. How do you know that you're only supposed to bring the carbon taita from chulin dika stuff and not ma'aser sheini? Ta'ama l'meimra v'zavachta pesach l'Hashem elokecha tzeinu bakar. We learn from the carbon pesach v'halacha pesach ain ba ella min akvasim and eizim. There's limitations of what you can bring as a carbon pesach. It has to be from a keves or from an eiz not from bakar. You don't bring a carbon pesach from cows. So in kain ma ta'ama l'meimra tzeinu bakar. L'hakeish kol haba'im min atzeinu min a bakar l'pesach. You make a hekeish to any other carbon that's brought from tzeinu min a bakar. Ma pesach d'var sheb'chiva d'ain ba ella min achulin af kol d'var sheb'chiva ain ba ella min achulin. You cannot bring any chiyuv carbon from something that's not chulin. L'fi kach amar hareini alai taida hareini alai shlamim hayil bo'in chiva. Since now it's a chiva lo yavi ella min achulin. U'nisachim b'chol makom lo yavi ella min achulin. Always nisachim must be only brought from chulin. And the reason for that is because since nisachim are not eaten at all but they're actually put out completely on the mizbeach, you can never use moyis ma'aser sheini for that. But there's the rule of kol d'var sheb'chiva ain ba ella min achulin. So this rule that you can't use your moyis ma'aser sheini for all your d'varim sheb'chiva can even be expanded to of modern day shailos about can I use my ma'aser ksafim for other obligations? Can I pay tuition l'mashal with my ma'aser money? And the answer is you can't. But only the part that's the d'var sheb'chiva like my own kids chinuch that I'm muchuyav to supply. But if part of my tuition money goes towards a scholarship fund for other kids, well then that l'cheira should come out of my tzedaka money. That's not a d'var sheb'chiva. Reb Moshe has this fascinating teshuvah about girls chinuch cuz you're not muchuyav to educate your girls. So maybe I can use my ma'aser money to pay for my Bais Yaakov tuition. To which Reb Moshe says in theory that might have been true but since American law requires us to send our kids to school, so it's a d'var sheb'chiva also that. And therefore you cannot use your ma'aser money for girls tuition. There's a question about post high school. Can I use it for seminary? Maybe it's a d'var sheb'chiva because it's going to be a knock on the resume for the shidduch if the kids don't go to seminary. I don't know. Okay. Vayiter. Zakt the Gemara. U'pesach gufan minan. How do you like this for the second day of pesach for us to find the makor that how do you know that you can't bring your carbon pesach from anything other than chulin? Amazing. Dei tanya cuz a braisa says Rebbi Eliezer amar namar pesach b'mitzrayim v'namar pesach l'dorois. We've got two kinds of carbon pesachs. You got one by the pesach mitzrayim, the OG carbon pesach, the one that our forefathers brought while we were still in mitzrayim, and you got the pesach l'doros, the one that we bring every year. So my pesach omer b'mitzrayim lo bo ela min hachulin. It couldn't have come from ma'aser sheni because there was no ma'aser sheni at that time. So pesach omer l'doros lo bo ela min hachulin. Omer le Rebbi Akiva, v'chi donin efshar m'she'efshar? How can you learn from pesach mitzrayim that you don't use gelt of ma'aser sheni? There was no ma'aser ma'aser sheni. So omer le Rebbi Eliezer back to Rebbi Akiva, af al pi she'efshar, raya gadola hi v'nilmad b'hemena. It's still a perfectly acceptable mokher. That is the model for all future sukos. Khozer [snorts] Rebbi Akiva v'donin d'nakher. Rebbi Akiva went back and continued to argue. Mala pesach mitzrayim shekein ein ton matan damim v'eimurim l'gabei mizbei'akh. There are all kinds of other halachos that didn't exist by pesach mitzrayim, turning over tumai meis. Timer b'pesach d'orais sh'ton matan damim v'eimurim l'gabei mizbei'akh. So you see it can't be the complete model because it had unique halachos. Omer le Rebbi Eliezer, hareihu omer b'avodasa avoda zoy is b'khodesh Nissan, that you have to bring the carbon pesach on you dal Nissan. Sheyu kol avoda she b'khodesh Nissan k'zay. So the Torah is saying that the pesach mitzrayim is the model. And just like pesach mitzrayim had to be brought from chulin, so too the carbon pesach can only be brought from chulin. For Rebbi Akiva, isaver lo d'ein donin efshar m'she'efshar. If that's what he holds, like he started off the whole discussion, like he will say, he can stick with that argument. In other words, he doesn't need to present that second argument where he finds other chulukim in the korbanos about the eimurim and the matan damim, etc. And the other way, if he taka was khozer from that position of donin efshar m'she'efshar, the high d'leigamer mi'pesach mitzrayim mishum ha'percha, and the only reason why he doesn't want to learn from pesach mitzrayim is because of the matan damim and the eimurim, well pesach midbar yachiyach. Then you can ask about the pesach midbar, but at the time the Yidden were bringing their carbon pesach in the midbar, they only had the mishkan, they were doing their matan damim, and bringing the eimurim, even though there was still no ma'aser sheni. So you see you can only bring the carbon pesach from chulin, which the Gemara says now Rebbi Akiva was l'dvar d'Rebbi Eliezer komer. Le didi, zoker Rebbi Akiva, ein donin efshar m'she'efshar. So it's not even a geira, but l'didi d'och, according to Rebbi Eliezer, d'aimer donin efshar m'she'efshar. Well, mala pesach mitzrayim shekein ein ton matan damim v'eimurim l'gabei mizbei'akh. Timer b'pesach d'orais sh'ton matan damim v'eimurim l'gabei mizbei'akh. V'omer le Rebbi Eliezer, naf dem. Rebbi Eliezer says v'avodasa. The Torah says you should do the avoda in this month of Nissan, teaching us that the carbon pesach of mitzrayim is the model for all the future korbanos of pesach. V'Rebbi Eliezer, frekting omer, Rebbi Eliezer leimalei pesach midbar yachiyach. Why doesn't he just simply tell Rebbi Akiva about pesach midbar, which should tell us that even a pesach when they did the matan damim and the eimurim on the mizbei'akh, still it could be brought from chulin, which the Gemara answers, because that's l'dvar Rebbi Akiva komer. Rebbi Eliezer was only going according to shitas Rebbi Akiva. That l'didi donin efshar m'she'efshar. Umishum ha'percha, and l'gabei the kasha the pesach mitzrayim was different because it didn't have matan damim and eimurim, I'll tell you pesach midbar yachiyach, where they did the matan damim and eimurim. And l'didi d'och, d'aimer ein donin efshar m'she'efshar. But even according to you, it says you can't be donin efshar m'she'efshar, I got the pasuk of b'avodasa. Now v'hashata nami lifrakh. Now that the Torah has put them together as a hekeish, why can't Rebbi Akiva be doicheh this based on the taina of ein donin efshar m'she'efshar, which omer Rebbi Shayshes, zoy sayin meimaris ein mashivin ala hekeish. Once you have the existing hekeish, which Rashi says is based on a mesora, ultimately stemming from a halacha l'Moshe mi'Sinai, so your taina of svara is not going to be a problem. V'tarbitza omer, and in tarbitza, what's tarbitza? So Rashi learns tarbitza as a reference to a bais medrash because of the lashon of harbatzas ha'Torah. So in the bais medrash they had said v'chi d'var halomed b'hekeish khozer u'lomed b'hekeish? You're trying to make a hekeish from pesach mitzrayim, and from that we're being makish to all other dvarim sheb'chayava that has to be bomin hachulin. But that's going to be a hekeish from a hekeish, to which the Gemara says no, it's not really hekeish from a hekeish, but kol itmar. It's we're not really learning all the other korbanos from pesach l'doros, which then in turn is learned from pesach mitzrayim. We're actually putting pesach mitzrayim and pesach l'doros into one category, and therefore it's only one singular hekeish. V'Rebbi Akiva, so basically we're saying our mission is really going according to shitas Rebbi Eliezer. So now the Gemara is asking Rebbi Akiva, pesach d'ein bo ela min hachulin min alai? How does according to Rebbi Akiva we know that a carbon pesach and any other d'var sheb'chayava can only be brought from chulin? Nafke leima hada omer Shmuel mishum Rebbi Eliezer, because the Torah says zois ha'Torah la'ola u'l'mincha u'l'chatas u'l'asham u'l'miluim u'l'zevach shlamim. And now we're going to go through and darshan this, we'll just start it now and finish it up tomorrow. Why do we mention in the pasuk ola, ma ola tonakli af kol tonakli? Every other carbon always requires a kli for its kashrus. So mahi, what's the kli that Rebbi Eliezer is referring to? Eilima mizrak, if it's the bowl that the dam goes into, I'll say v'gabei zivchei shlamim d'tzibur nami ksiv v'yasimu b'agonais. Agonais are those bowls. So since all the korbanos are also compared to shlamim, you'd think you'd need to have a bowl for all the other shlamim. So why the Torah still say ola? Ela sakin. Rebbi Eliezer is talking about the sakin that used for shechita. V'ola gufa min alai, how do you know about carbon ola that you need to have a sakin? D'ksiva yishlach Avraham es yado. Ayika cheiles l'shchita d'Avraham es Yitzchak? He needed to have a cheiles, but also ola. And by akeidas Yitzchak, that had didn't have a carbon ola. D'ksiv vaya'aleihu ola tachas b'no. Now we're going to stop here and pick it up with mincha for Shabbos is daf. We shall see you then.