Menachos Daf 81

All right, Daf Payah, aleph. First day of Yom Tov's daf. And we were talking on yesterday's daf about a taydah that got mixed up with a temurah of said taydah. And then one of them dies. So now I'm left with an animal I don't know if that one was my original korban taydah or if it was the temurah of a taydah. So what's the difference? Who cares? Just bring it. Well, a korban taydah requires lechem. A temurah of a taydah does not have any lechem. So now I don't know what to do. So the halacha is there's ain lechem takunah and therefore nothing can be done. There's just no way out. Now today's daf, we're going to spend an entire amud of suggesting eight different mahalchim that should lechayarah be ways that you could somehow salvage the situation. The gemara is going to give us more than an amud of just trying to salvage the situation. It's going to actually do eight different tries. We're starting off now about two-thirds or three-quarters of the way down the amud where there's the siman. I think it works out nicely that the first day of Pesach we start off our daf with a siman. That's the whole seder. Kadesh, urchatz, karpas, yachatz. The whole thing is just one big siman to know how to fearsach on the night of Pesach. Anyway, the Shulchan Aruch says you're supposed to say simanim that are in the gemara even if you don't exactly understand how it's a siman for the upcoming things. So we'll say it. Limudam midas alah, shiyesh, shachein, didameh, de e, chalash, meiser, temurah, achutz, chizkiyah, if rachatz la'achar yeitzer. And now that we've done that, we can get started. The first of our eight different suggestions of how to salvage the situation of the taydah and the temurah of the taydah and you don't know which one died. Amru lemeidin lifnei Rebbi. Those who learned in front of Rebbi, which is kind of a strange sounding expression, but that's a reference specifically to Levi, as Isaac Rashi. So basically Levi said to Rebbi, "V'leisi lechem. Let this guy who is in this difficult situation bring lechem. V'leima let him say, 'E hach de kaima taydihi halachma. If this animal that takah survived is the korban taydah, okay, so here is its lechem.' And ilai leipik lechulin. I'll make a tenai and saying if this is not going to be the taydah animal, but rather it's the temurah's taydah which doesn't get lechem, so then the lechem will be chulin." So Rebbi didn't like that. Rebbi says, "Amru lehu. V'chi machnisin chulin la'azarah?" You can't bring chulin into the azarah and on the tzadd that this is the meiser taydah you're saying it should be chulin, well that's a problem. Of course this is calling into question about the fact that there's chulin b'azarah even by non animals. Just a loaf of bread. I mean, can you bring a chair or a table that's chulin into the azarah? Is it something that's shayach to a korban? So that's a bit of a question. Second suggestion. V'leisi beheima v'lechem v'leima. Bring another animal and lechem. And now say, "E hach de kaima temurihi. If the living animal is the temurah animal which does not need lechem, okay, so hot taydah v'halachma." So the new animal that I'm introducing, and this is the lechem, that will be perfectly good taydah and associated lechem. "E hach de kaima taydihi. And if the surviving animal is takah the korban taydah, which does need lechem, so halachma. Here's the bread." Now I'm bringing also a new animal and it will be v'hot tamish shlamim. The new animal will be a korban shlamim that does not require lechem. So all should be right in the world. To which Rebbi says, "That's not going to work because amru lehu mishum de kamah may'et b'achilah d'shlamim." What's happening is that this shlamim which should normally have two days and one night to eat the shlamim, you have to be choshesh that this animal is actually a korban taydah where only has one day and the following night. So kamah derais, you're being maybe kodshim leveis apsulin. You are making the kodshim possibly more pasul at an earlier time, which is a no can do. So we're up to our third suggestion. Amru Levi leRebbi. Levi said to Rebbi. Now you may be asking, "Levi, didn't we already have Levi in the first one which was referenced by the amru lemeidin lifnei Rebbi?" And Rashi acknowledges that and Rashi just says that Levi wanted to speak to Rebbi when the other talmidim weren't around. It's like he's got the secret teretz over here that he's going to tell Rebbi that he doesn't want the other talmidim to hear. So what was this teretz that Levi wanted to suggest now that he had Rebbi's ear by himself? V'leisi beheima v'lechem v'leima. Let him bring a new animal and the lechem and say, "E hach de kaima temurihi. If the surviving animal is the temurah, so this new animal will be hot taydah v'halachma." And that's fine. "And the e chai de kaima taydihi. And if the surviving animal is korban taydah, you know what? Halachma. V'hot tavei nicer detaydah." This will be its lechem. And what am I going to do with the new animal? The new animal will be a meiser taydah. We've already said that a meiser taydah, basically a surplus animal that you don't end up needing because you used it as a replacement and you didn't need a replacement, whatever it is, it's a meiser taydah that does not require lechem. So that's what I'll do with the new animal that you don't need to use in the end. So what's kind of funny about this is that here Levi is waiting till the other talmidim were not around to say this teretz and this teretz really seemed to backfire. Rebbi did not like it at all. Amru le Rebbi says back to Levi, "Kamah dumani. It seems to me she ain't like mayach b'kod kodai." He got no brain in your head. Very, very sharp. And of course, whenever we got these gishmaka insults, we always reference the Chavas Yair in siman kuf nun beis, which has the list of Chazal's greatest insults of all time. And of course he goes through to explain why they're not insults and of course it was holding Rebbi to such a standard. Whatever the Chavas Yair says to explain away each one of these things, but if you're interested in researching it, that's where it's discussed. Moving over to amud aleph, why did Rebbi say that he has no mayach b'kod kodai? V'chi mafreshin techilah l'ma'asreis? Levi's suggestion here was let's take this animal that's not being used, we'll just call it a meiser of a taydah. But that can't work. Definitionally, a meiser taydah is something that's a surplus or something you don't need. You can't lechatchilah make it cuz then it's not a surplus of a korban. So it's not shayach to invent a meiser taydah without having a situation that makes it into a meiser taydah. All right, we're up to suggestion number four. Yosef Rebbi Yitzchak bar Shmuel bar Nachmani. V'Yosef amar, "V'leisi beheima v'lechem. Bring another animal and the lechem. V'leima and say, 'E hach de kaima temurihi. Okay, no problem. Hot taydah v'halachma.' Then the new animal is a korban taydah with its associated lechem. No problem. V'e hach de kaima taydihi. So now what's our eitzah? Halachma v'hot tavei temurah." No problem. I'll say that the lechem will be for the taydah, which is the remaining animal, and this new animal will be a temurah. And a temurah's taydah does not require lechem as we've been saying all along. So that's my eitzah. I'll make this new unused animal into a temurah. Amar leih. So Rav Nachman says back to Rebbi Yitzchak, "Aneini mari. Answer me. Arbo'im bakasvei." Someone who makes an animal into a temurah gets malkus arbo'im on his shoulders. That's the arbo'im bakasvei. And bakasvei and you're suggesting that's a good eitzah? That's a kosher a way to go? In other words, isn't it an aveirah to go ahead and make an animal to a temurah? Even if it works, but you're not allowed to do it, so it's not an eitzah. Like, "Oh, no problem, just make this animal to a temurah." It's interesting that he references the aveirah of temurah by saying arbo'im bakasvei. The very fact that malkus is given for a temurah is a great sakasha because lechayarah t'lavshein b'ma'aseh. So it's just interesting that we chose that expression of arbo'im bakasvei bakasher. All right, but we're up to suggestion number five. Rav Ila chalash. One time Rav Ila got sick. Olu le gabei Abaye v'Rabbanan v'yashvu v'amru. So Abaye and the Rabbanan went to go visit him and when they came there they said to him, "E is al Rebbi Yochanan de'amar chutz lechem azarah kodshim. If we hold like shitas Rebbi Yochanan who holds that when the korban taydah's lechem are outside of the chaimas azarah, when the korban itself gets gishachtin, it is still going to be hegdish. So in such a case, leisi lechem v'leisi chutz lechaimas azarah v'leima. Let the owner of this surviving animal bring lechem, put it outside of the koisel of the azarah and say, 'E hach de kaima taydihi halachma.' Then this is going to of course be its lechem. V'ilai leipik lechulin. If it's not the korban taydah, but it's the temurah which doesn't need lechem, let these lechem which are now outside of the azarah be chulin." Meaning let them always be chulin. Because the whole problem in the answer number one was that it's chulin b'azarah. Well, this is not in the azarah, so we should be safe. To which Rav Ila responded back, "Mishum de ikar arbo lechanef." You can't say that because there are four different kinds of lechem that need tenufah. Those are the four lechem that are set aside for the Kohanim. It's the trumah of those 40 loaves. You give one of each kind to the Kohen and he does tenufah. "Seiach lav it. How is he supposed to do the tenufah in such a matzev? L'nei finu Abaye wants to suggest the Kohen should do the tenufah outside the chatzer? Lifnei Hashem k'tziv. And gavoi should do them inside? Then you're going to have the same problem as we had in answer number one that kamah ail chulin la'azarah." So hilchach le'amshir is not a good eitzah. Suggestion number six. Maskif leih Rav Shisha brei deRav Idi. I have a solution. "Im is al Chizkiyah. If you hold like shitas Chizkiyah de'amar kodshu arbo'im mitach shmonim. That if someone shacht a korban taydah over 80 lechem, of those 80, 40 are going to be kodash. So no problem. Leisi beheima v'leisi shmonim b'chado v'leima. Let the owner of the surviving animal bring another animal and bring 80 lechem and say, 'E hach de kaima taydihi. If the surviving one is a korban taydah which needs lechem, okay, no problem. Hanami t'havei taydah b'shmonim detarvayu.' So let the new one be a taydah and let these 80 be designated for the two different taydahs cuz you have a new animal that you're introducing and you have the original animal which we're saying on the tzadd they're both a taydah. And e hach de kaima temurihi. Let's say the surviving animal is not the taydah, but it's the temurah's taydah. So hot taydah v'ha lachma lekatzlu arbo'im mitach shmonim. According to Chizkiyah, you can have 40 of these 80 lechem be hegdish. So why can't that be the eitzah? To which the gemara answers, "Mishum de kamah may'et b'achilah d'arbo'im." Since it's shayach that both really are korban taydahs, so four from each of the sets have to be given as trumah to the Kohen. But only the first set that you're taking is vadai trumah. The ones from the second set are going to be a safek trumah. And if it's takah really korban taydah, so then the ones that you separate for trumah from the second cheilik is going to actually be the Kohanim's. But if it's only going to be the temurah, then as long as the first ones weren't pasul, the whole group of them including the trumah is going to be chulin and belongs to the ba'alim because the ba'alim can't eat the trumah since it might be hegdish and trumah can only be eaten by the Kohanim. And the Kohen also is likely not going to want to eat them because it may not be his. So he may choose not to eat it even though he technically could eat it. So it's very atuchin that the second set of those 40 lechem is going to remain uneaten. When that passes, it's going to be like nicer and you're going to have to burn it. It's going to be meivin kodshim leveis apsulin. Or even if it's not going to be pasul with any kind of nicer, still Rashi brings that there might be a problem of bal tashchis. So either way, the second grouping of that trumah is going to be problematic with this solution. So now we're up to suggestion number seven. Amar leih Rav Ashi leRav Kahana. "Im is al Rebbi Yochanan de'amar if rachatz muberes. Let's say someone is mafresh rachatz muberes that then gave birth. The halacha is rotzah b'am miskaper rotzah b'vladam miskaper. Either one can be used for the korban chatas, which is shitas Rebbi Yochanan. So therefore leisi beheima muberes." An eitzah for our problem is let the ba'alim bring a beheima muberes and make it into a korban taydah. "V'yamtin lah achas talin." And wait for it to give birth before bringing it as a korban. "V'leisi shmonim b'chado v'leima." Now bring 80 lechem with it and say the following tenai. "E hach de kaima temurihi. If the surviving animal that we're in mesupak about is takah the temurah which does not need lechem, okay. Ha'uvlada taydihi v'hashmonim detarvayu." I now have a mommy taydah and a baby taydah and 80 lechem to work with. So this is all going to be new taydahs. That's on the tzadd that the surviving animal was the temurah. "V'e hach de kaima taydihi. And if the surviving animal was takah the taydah, so hanami taydis. Then one of this mother or child will be the taydah. V'hashmonim detarvayu. And these whole 80 lechem can now be the meaning 40 for the original animal and 40 for the new the high and the child let's say the one that you're not using that just be that does not require all my laser is back to a sheet that if you leave this blood alone it's not going to be considered a and therefore maybe you can make it into a proper in other words it's some and you have the choice of what to do with it because that was the whole of the year. Maybe when you are that blood is not left as but it automatically becomes the and therefore you have no choice in the matter it is a whether you like it or not and what's the by the case of the to all my that a person can use meaning they can get their with the with the thing that produced so you're misunderstanding the whole idea of to it too and try to come up with a solution so finally now we're up to the eighth and final suggestion that I love. Here's my suggestion but I see but I let the just say I'll take a new animal and I'll say I'm being myself to bring a and therefore that animal is going to be a of the that he's not to do because now he has a so even if the animal is lost he's to bring a different one in its stead and he can now designate another animal as a backup for this animal that's part of the of the but I see but I see. Let another animal but I bring a long 80 with it but I say if the surviving animal was the which does not need okay no problem I need but I am now introducing two new animals which are both going to be therefore requiring a no problem I got right here but I but the original animal that survived was actually the animal now and therefore of the two new animals that I've introduced only one of them that I said is going to be the that's going to also be a now. And now I've got 80 40 for the original surviving and 40 for the new the and what about that new backup one that one is there only to be the backup for the so there's my now I can take care of the situation to which answers back to a all my time I don't know but I you shouldn't even make it in the first place that even fulfilling the we had to like a Melinda so your whole here is all no problem make a we don't want you to make so we leave off without having any suggestion. And if a gets mixed up with a and then one of them dies you are out of luck that's that now I'm going to bring a that's what the guy promises so you have to you can't double dip you can't use you got to use new funds to pay for the and for the associated turning over to the men the now my let's say somebody speaks out I'm going to bring a from and the not from but rather from so then you have to you still got to bring it from because. The men are after the so once he's to bring the you automatically have to bring the and you can't bring it from or from anything that's not let's say he said but I mean the other way around where he said the is coming from the well then then he can actually do what he's saying in his promise because it's not being triggered by the actual since he said the coming from and then if he said he if he said both of them are going to come from then he could bring it according to what he said for his but don't bring. The made of wheat elements just from the money of we'll see in the more about why that is so now the top deals with the fact that why don't we deal with this as a that's he's switching gears between and the mission doesn't seem to be dealing with that and acknowledges that could be you don't even say because of the it happens right away can't be it could be this has to do with the exceptions to one of them is and might be related to the because as we know that. As a all the so take a look at that anyway all my maybe the guy only talked about the in his promise but yet he still he has to bring the carbon also why my time why is that because I like people know that they're not bringing just so if he says he's promising to bring he also means to bring the carbon and therefore all my that's what he means but I so that we need to explain away why did he only say because I he was just saying the punchline of it all it ends up being with the so that's what he said but Carbon as well I don't know what I tell him is Kim according to the way he said it Kim once he said the are coming from the so both the carbon and the should come from according to the logic that we're saying now Kim said I mean since he initially started off saying that the is coming from the and only later he says the are coming from now I really like lifted social planning. We're going to look at it like as if he said that I'm being myself to bring to be somebody else's carbon because it's for someone who is bringing for somebody else's carbon he only has to bring the and his is able to use them for his carbon and therefore technically someone could be to only bring for his own carbon that might actually come from but in our case we're going to look at that tonight that he said that the are coming from as an addition to the carbon coming from and not some kind of a or requirement to bring even the carbon from. But then I love you have to also say I really like to and therefore only bring the carbon from like he said now come on but I don't like it makes sense when you're coming to I bring a carbon but does a carbon ever come to be the bringing about or not and therefore that's not a good suggestion the says I love I love you. If someone says I'm going to bring a carbon but I don't want to bring the or I'm bringing a carbon without the doesn't matter maybe you got to do it all or you can't say I want to do it but I don't want to do it according to my own rules you be it doesn't work and therefore you got to bring the carbon with its you got to bring the with its but because he spoke out that he's bringing a but if he doesn't say he's bringing a carbon but if he doesn't say he's bringing a carbon maybe he wouldn't be to bring a with the so the of the can negate the dinner from before. Who I didn't I forgot the but I did to all my but I got the fact that we wanted to have a case of a without but I must have where you can't learn the opposite of without a carbon because you really could bring the without a carbon tell me that is we also have that kind of a but it's not really a that you have to say you're bringing the but why do we force the guy to bring the and the or the carbon and the never why can't this be considered like a that has its own along with it which is a borrowed expression. But he's making this take which should act as a within the actual promise itself all my this is going to be to all my that we always give more of a primacy to the first thing that's said that's not learned in the mission and which can be found on I know my I assume you listed both things I'm a from the dried figs or I'm a from the pressed figs so I know if you I feel but I you can even say that the is going to be we're talking about a case. If I knew that you can't bring a carbon without but I I wouldn't have done it this way but I would have said that you have to bring the with my so what do we mean when we say we're going to force him to fulfill it with the the other by it just means in a case where he later on wanted to retract meaning once we find out that he was sincere and he has about the way he did it so since there's no reason to say it's going to be we're going to force him to do it in the right way to all let's bring a to from the following all my I love I love I love I. They all have a all my all my all my they told him bring a with the or bring the carbon with the the all my I can't had I known that the net was going to be me in this way I would never have made it so then explain this soon but I we force him to do it and we'll explain this soon but I but I make sense cuz it's going to go but I that we give the all my but I we can't so you can't learn like so all my all my but I the is really going like but The first can be understood like my but I that we said that you have to be and you have to listen all my but I all my bring that carbon that you said you're going to bring and listen all my to bring the associated that's how we understand that all my bring both and shall I don't do this meaning never promise to bring a carbon without that's not a way to go and this is where we're going to stop and we'll pick it up from here for the second day of stay tuned.