Menachos Daf 79

All right, Duff. I ain't Tess. Tuesday's Duff. And let's pick it up with the Mishnah on Ain Khes Mitz Bayz. Shach Kutz L'Zman V'Kutz L'Makom. Let's say the guy shach a carbon Todah, but he has Machshavas Pigul. Kutz L'Zman V'Kutz L'Makom. So the question is what's going to be with the Lachamim? Because we said that the Shchitah is the trigger to be Mekadesh the Lachamim. Let's say now he does this bad Shchitah because he was M'Pagel it. Says the Mishnah, despite the fact that he was shach Kutz L'Zman V'Kutz L'Makom, still Kodesh Halacham. Now, Shach V'Nimsah Treifah. Interestingly enough, he shachs the animal and turns out that the Shchitah was no good because it was Treifah. Lo Kodesh Halacham. We're going to have to know what the difference is between that and the Pigul. Shach V'Nimsah Balas Mum. Let's say he shachs it and he finds it after the fact that it's a Bal Mum and he can't bring it as a carbon. Now that's going to be a Machlokes R' Eliezer Omer Kidesh, that the Lachamim become Kodesh. D'Chachamim Omer Lo Kidesh. Now let's say it's Shach Sh'Lo L'Shmah. V'Chayn Ayalim V'Chayn Shnei Kivsei Atzaros Sh'Shach Sh'Lo L'Shmah. Let's say he shachs the carbon Todah not for its own sake. Or he shachs a Shlamim for the Miluim. Or one of the two Kivsei Atzaros also not L'Shmah. Lo Kodesh Halacham. The associated Lachamim are not going to be Kodesh. Now Rashi on the beginning of the Mishnah when it said that if you're M'Pagel the carbon it's still going to be Mekadesh the Lachamim. Because Rashi says Lo Pasul Acharei Shchitah. Since the Machshavas Pigul is considered something external and outside of the Shchitah, that's why it's still going to work to be Mekadesh the Lachamim. But Rashi then qualifies and says if you do a Shchitah Sh'Lo L'Shmah, Lo Mapik L'Kedushas L'Gamrei Acharei Shach L'Shayn Zevach Acharei. It won't work to be Mekadesh the Lachamim if you have intention for a different carbon. The question is how much can you even die from that Rashi? Let's say, and this is now a Shailah of the Mikdash Dovid in Siman Yud Tes Ayin. Let's say I shach it for carbon Todah but just not for my carbon Todah. Let's say I do it for somebody else's carbon Todah. Todas Chaverai. Is that considered a Zevach Acharei? Or maybe not really because it's still a carbon Todah. Says the Gemara, Mast Nisan Money. Who is the Tanna of our Mishnah? Says the Gemara, R' Meir. As we're about to see we have a Machlokes R' Meir and R' Eliezer. This is going to be Shitas R' Meir. De Tanya. Because the Braisa says Haklal, Kol Sh'Pisulei Kodem Shchitah. Anytime where the Pisul happens before the Maaseh Shchitah, then Lo Kodesh Halacham because now the Shchitah was not going to be a proper trigger to be Mekadesh those Lachamim. However, Pisulei Acharei Shchitah, like by Pigul or something that would happen after the Shchitah, well then Kodesh Halacham. Therefore, Shach Kutz L'Zman V'Kutz L'Makom, that's considered not before the Shchitah and therefore Kodesh Halacham. However, Shach V'Nimsah Treifah, well that was there already. So Lo Kodesh Halacham. The problem preexisted and therefore the Shchitah is not going to trigger the Kedushah of the Lacham. Moving over to Menalish, Shach V'Nimsah Balas Mum. That's not so Poshet. R' Eliezer Omer Kodesh and R' Yehoshua Omer Lo Kodesh. And that's the way Divrei R' Meir, that's the way he understood their Machlokes. And that's going to be our Mishnah. Omer R' Yehudah, there's another way to understand this Machlokes. Lo Nechlaku R' Eliezer V'R' Yehoshua Al Shach V'Nimsah Treifah Sh'Lo Kodesh. Avadah, Treifah is for sure not going to be Mekadesh the Lachamim. V'Al Kutz L'Zmanai Sh'Kodesh. That will work. And also V'Al Bal Mum there's no Machlokes. Sh'Lo Kodesh. V'Al Ma Nechlaku? But where is there going to be a Machlokes? That's Al Kutz L'Makomai. That one is a little unclear to us how to classify it. Eliezer Omer Kodesh? R' Eliezer holds the Lachamim will be Kodesh if you had a Machshavah to eat it Sh'Leibem Kaimai. R' Yehoshua Omer Lo Kodesh. It's not going to be Mekadesh the Lachamim. Now the question is how do we understand Sh'Leibem Kaimai? How do we classify it? Omer R' Eliezer, Ayil V'Kutz L'Zmanai Pasul. V'Kutz L'Makomai Pasul. They're both Pasul. I should put them together. Ma Kutz L'Zmanai Kodesh, Af Kutz L'Makomai Kodesh. To which Omer R' Yehoshua, Ayil V'Kutz L'Makomai Pasul U'Bal Mum Pasul. It's more comparable to the Bal Mum. So Ma Bal Mum Lo Kodesh, Af Kutz L'Makomai Lo Kodesh. So you can see both R' Eliezer and R' Yehoshua can see the same Kutz L'Makomai and either compare it to Kutz L'Zmanai that we typically put it together in the same category. Or no, maybe it's more like a Bal Mum. Omer Lo R' Eliezer. This is the continuation of the conversation if you will between R' Eliezer and R' Yehoshua. Ani D'Meisi Hu L'Kutz L'Zmanai V'Atah D'Meisi Hu L'Bal Mum. Just like we spoke it out. I'm comparing Kutz L'Makomai to Kutz L'Zmanai and you're comparing Kutz L'Makomai to a Bal Mum. So now let me see which one it's a better Dimyon to. Such a verbose Gemara here. Im Dimah L'Kutz L'Zmanai, So Niddonen Mi Kutz L'Zmanai. And Im Dimah L'Bal Mum, Niddonen Mi Bal Mum. So after this Hakdamah, Hischil R' Eliezer L'Dun. He started Duning the following way. Dunin Pisul Machshavah Mi Pisul Machshavah. So it makes more sense to categorize the Kutz L'Makomai with the Kutz L'Zmanai. Then Dunin Pisul Machshavah Mi Pisul Guf, which is going to be the Bal Mum. To which Hischil R' Yehoshua L'Dun. R' Yehoshua had a response. He said Dunin Pisul Shain B'Karos Mi Pisul Shain B'Karos. Because Kutz L'Makomai is Im B'Karos. But Al Yachid Kutz L'Zmanai Sh'Pisul Shish B'Karos. We know it's much more Chomer Kutz L'Zmanai. V'Oi and also we even have one that's going to be better to compare to our Kutz L'Makomai. Niddonen Mi Sh'Lo L'Shmai. This time having the wrong Machshavah for the wrong carbon. Sh'Pisul Machshavah V'Im B'Karos. So and we're all Maskim that a carbon Todah Sh'Lo L'Shmai, well then for sure the Lachamim are not Niskadesh. So if you shach Sh'Leibem Kaimai is very comparable to the Sh'Lo L'Shmai, it should not be Kodesh. To that the Shas R' Eliezer, he had no response. V'R' Meir. And according to R' Meir, Ma Shach V'Nimsah Treifah? They have a Pisulei Kodem Shchitah. We look at that as a Pisul that happened prior to the Shchitah. That's why the Lachamim are not Niskadesh. U'Ma Shach V'Nimsah Bal Mum? D'Lo Pisul Kodem Shchitah. L'Charei Dei Mum was there prior to the Shchitah. So why is it that according to R' Eliezer, according to your version R' Meir, the Lachamim will become Kodesh? To which the Gemara answers, we're talking about a very particular Mum here. B'Dukin B'Ayin. It's this cataract in the eye, which is a Shvach or kind of a Mum. Over here Rashi tells us that it's a Mum Ayin. Ya Leiba D'R' Akiva D'Omer Im Olu Lo Yordu. The B'Di Av you don't even take it off in this bag. So already you see from the fact that Im Olu Lo Yordu according to R' Akiva it has Epis Kedushah and therefore that's why it will be Mekadesh the Lachamim. But R' Yehoshua who argues Ki Omer R' Akiva Im Olu Lo Yordu. When did R' Akiva say that? That Pisul D'Gufah. That's only Pisul D'Gufah L'Gabei itself but Lo Kedushas Lacham to affect the Kedushah on the Lacham Lo. Even R' Akiva would be Maskim it wouldn't be Mekadesh the Lachamim. Itmar, very similar Machlokes Amoraim. Chatas Sh'Shach Kutz L'Zman. Let's say if a classic carbon Chatas that's G'Shach Kutz L'Zman with Pigul. Im Olu Lo Yirei. That when you're M'Pagel a carbon in this example it's a carbon Chatas, it's going to be the Halachah of Im Olu Lo Yirei. However, Kutz L'Makom. That's going to be a Machlokes. Rava Omer Yirei, Rava Omer Lo Yirei. Rava Omer K'R' Yehoshua. It seems like Rava is going like R' Yehoshua or at least can be lined up with R' Yehoshua who's M'Dama Kutz L'Makomai to a Bal Mum. That in the same way a Bal Mum that's Olu Yirei, the same thing should be Kutz L'Makomai and therefore the same thing would be Bal Kutz L'Makomai you should also be Im Olu Yirei. But V'Rava K'R' Eliezer who's M'Dama Kutz L'Makomai to Kutz L'Zmanai which would be Im Olu Lo Yirei. But says the Gemara, B'Chodrei B'Rava L'Gabei D'Rava. Ultimately Rava was Maskim to Rava M'Chader Bei R' Eliezer L'Gabei D'R' Yehoshua. Since R' Eliezer the Tanna was Chozer and ultimately went like R' Yehoshua, so in the same way the parallel was that Rava started being Maskim to Rava. Ikka D'Amrei, there's another Lashon that Al Pagum D'Chader Bei R' Eliezer L'Gabei D'R' Yehoshua. Even though R' Eliezer was Maskim ultimately to R' Yehoshua, Rava L'Gabei D'Rava Lo Chader Bei. Why? Because there's a Chiluk. Pasul L'Gabei D'Machlokes Tannaim. When R' Eliezer was Chozer D'Kolu Omer Lei, Niddonen Mi Sh'Lo L'Shmai. I had that other Tanna to compare Kutz L'Makomai to a Lo L'Shmai and that's why R' Eliezer had no response. Aval Acharei Machlokes Amoraim about Im Olu Yirei U'Lo Yirei. Either Yonah S'Lei Mi Sh'Lo L'Shmai Im Olu Lo Yirei. If you want to suggest to compare a Kutz L'Makomai to a Lo L'Shmai, the Halachah would be Im Olu Lo Yirei. And therefore you don't have such a strong Tanna and therefore even though R' Eliezer was Chozer, Rava would not be Chozer. And the Mishnah had said Shach Sh'Lo L'Shmah and also the Shlamim of the Miluim and the Kivsei Atzaros, if they were G'Shach Sh'Lo L'Shmah, the Lachamim are not Kodesh. Omer R' Papa, Shavuk Tanna D'Dun Ayil Nazir D'Shchiach. Our Tanna did not include the case of the Ayil Nazir which is more common than Nokid Ayil Miluim which is very uncommon. What's the Shas in that? Says the Gemara, R' Tanna D'Dun Ikkar Milson Nokid. The Miluim were the Ikkar Milson, they were first. Our Tanna wants to pick the example of what happened Mamash first in the Torah which was the Miluim. Says the Mishnah, Ha N'Sachim Sh'Kichu B'Klei. So you have these N'Sachim that are put into the Klei Sharis. V'Nimsah Zevach Pasul. The associated carbon that is being brought with turns out to be a Pasul carbon. What do I do now? Im Yesh Zevach Acharei, if I can swap out the carbon, so Yakrivu Imo. You can salvage these N'Sachim which have this Kedushas HaGuf because of the Klei Sharis that it was put into. So you can now use them for the other swapped carbon. V'Im Lo Nu and if they are left over with a Psulina, Yifsulena B'Lina. They're Takka going to have a Psulina. Because since those N'Sachim were Niskadesh in the Klei Sharis, they have Kedushas HaGuf and therefore have the Halachos of Psulina. Omer Z'eiri, Ein Ha N'Sachim Niskadshin Ela B'Shchitas HaZevach. The N'Sachim's Kedushah is not triggered except by the Shchitah of the carbon that it's being accompanied with. My Taima? Omer Kra, Zevach U'N'Sachim. So you see that they're a unit. T'Nan, we learned in the Mishnah, Ha N'Sachim Sh'Kichu B'Klei V'Nimsah Zevach Pasul. Im Yesh Zevach Acharei, Yakrivu Imo. V'Im Lo Nu Yifsulena B'Lina and it has a Kedushas HaGuf. So Mai Lav D'Yifsul B'Shchitah? Can't we just assume the Mishnah is talking about where the carbon itself became Pasul by its Shchitah and therefore the Shchitah didn't work to be Mekadesh those N'Sachim and they're only going to be Kodesh because they were in a Klei Sharis. But still the Mishnah is saying they become Pasul with a Psulina and it's not telling in the Shchitah. Which the Gemara says, Lo. D'Yifsul B'Zrikah. We're talking about where the Pisul didn't take place by the Zrikah. then it already was Mekadesh those N'Sachim. So K'Man who's that working like? K'R' D'Omer Shnei D'Varim Matirin Malim Zeh B'Loh Zeh. Either of the Matirin can be Mekadesh things one without the other. Meaning the Shchitah is a Matir and the Zrikah is a Matir. But Af Ilu Taima R' Eliezer U'R' Shimon. You can say that our Mishnah is going even like R' Eliezer U'R' Shimon who argues that R' Yehudah holds that both Matirin are needed. But Achrei Ma Yaskinan K'Gavan Sh'Kivu Damam D'Kais Sh'Nishbach. We're talking about where really both Matirin happened. The Shchitah happened. The Zrikah happened. Because according to R' Eliezer U'R' Shimon, those whether it's the Lachamim or the N'Sachim, they are not Niskadesh only when the Zrikah is done improperly. But Avad that the Zrikah is never done at all because the Dam got poured out somehow. In the Nami, the Lachamim and the N'Sachim are not Niskadesh as the Gemara is going to explain. Because turning over to Tamid Bayz, R' Eliezer U'R' Shimon Sovrin K'Vasa D'Omer Kol Ayim L'Zrok K'Zrok Dami. So Ha Yais, the Zrikah didn't technically happen but it was Ayim to happen and therefore the N'Sachim became Niskadesh already and therefore are going to be Shiyach to Psulina even though the Dam got spilled out. Omer Mar, Im Yesh Zevach Acharei, Yakrivu Imo. Our Mishnah had said if we can swap out the carbon, you can salvage these N'Sachim. Ay Omer R' Chisda, Shemen Sh'Hifrishu L'Shemen Chazei is Pasul Sh'Men Chazei. You can't swap it out for the wire than the to swap and not the shaman Omar no problem leave there's like a this that the is conditional if it'll be needed for a particular carbon that it'll be needed if it's not needed it could be used for a different carbon so this essentially saves the day in advance why can't there be a even by a and here the says an important line which really should be ABC's in but it's tucked away over here on shaman the shaman is a definitional of a carbon however the is not an ancillary that's done on the periphery of your carbon but the shaman the shaman is integral to a carbon for at least let's make it tonight that it should become why is there for these if I have no use for it until it's left over night at least let it go to not go to waste that's because of this anybody to think that something could go into a and then it could become without having it tonight that they might not have known about so how even for the for a different carbon and that's not true unless you made it tonight Tony and you had a unique name but you had said we're talking about a very particular case where the other carbon was already when that first carbon became possible so everybody saw that the were used in the second carbon they're not going to realize even that it was transferred they're going to think this was the one it was initially intended for for the hour what happens if you don't have such a where there's already a possible carbon at that moment so I don't want to say in where the mission seems to give us this safer that if they're left over night they're going to become possible with Lena the mission should have just put it all together and said when is this going to be that if there is another carbon you can swap it but if not not is talk to me about that one that's the one case which the says that's what the mission means to say but when is this if there's another carbon that needs you could swap it out shall I and now only leave this idea that can make the about these different carbons that you could then use it for another carbon I have a horror of oven Omar of to a carbon that was not needed for the essentially they were surplus and they didn't need to get used at all so you're not allowed to be played with these things so now you have to be and only then you could be played with them according to the they can be even though they are theoretically for a carbon because of the according to he's not coming to the idea of it's only to say counter there is an you can let these things graze until they develop a but our have no once they're in a it's game over they have and therefore we're going to need to use to use them for another carbon if another carbon is available Vlad carbon meaning the animal part of the carbon and it has a baby or it has a the other or let's say set aside an animal as a carbon and then it gets lost and you put another one in its place and the first one was found so now you have an extra one that's the point the question is what about the and that are associated in all these cases ain't to you don't need additional the actual source animal but not the actual source animal but not these additional animals the price says which is seemingly a redundant part of the that it doesn't need to say he's going to bring it as a carbon meaning from from where do I know the when you found the original one that you replaced how do I know that I'm allowed to pick whichever one of these two animals that I want to bring in the associated can go along with that one that I choose time and you should have thought the second one also needs its own set of only one of them needs and not the other one and and now that we have both a and a the being and the being meaning is but that all works time and in all which we you're allowed to bring those you nice that they may all need to bring and we're going to stop before the two dots because what follows after the two dots is really going to be going on this line of this is the next place to stop we'll pick it up from here tomorrow