Menachos Daf 72

All right, Duff. I am base. Today we're going to finish this perek, but before we do, we've got to figure out this sheet of mayor. You may remember from yesterday's Duff we were trying to figure out who mayor sheet aligns with cuz we have our mission that the kind of comment seems to say that before you reach this stage of shachas you can cut the Omer. Then you would have came along and said before have our shlish it's still going to be okay. And then the next time in the mission said even if it brings a shlish. But our Gamara had brought from the payer about what things will be mafsik and make multiple areas that you have to be mafresh your payer from. And mayor had said that before you reach the level of shachas that will be not considered a quote unquote katzera and therefore it'll be next to the hefsik. It's not one drawn out process of being katzera which is connected to the that require a risha to plow up the field even after such a katzera. So it seems very important to the Gamara to figure out who parallels sheet of mayor. The first tried to work out with mayor aligning with sheet of mayor. Now our Gamara we're going to pick it up 15 lines from the bottom of base. Rebbe mayor Rebbe Omer Rebbe mayor's is really going with our sheet of mayor in our mission. The Omer cuz Rebbe had said in our mission cuz they must say when are you allowed to do a katzera on this unripe grain before you brought the carbon Omer bizman she has a heavy shlish. I will his she heavy shlish is going to be so let's line up sheet of mayor that shlish it's not legally next shelf a katzera in the same way that will be a Rebbe mayor from the mission in payer that makes such a between grain that grew a shlish and grain that has not grown a shlish. This is what the Gamara this is really where we got up to yesterday. But what the Gamara the shamas Rebbe had said that only where did Rebbe say that when you're being this grain that has not yet hit a shlish that's not considered a quote unquote katzera. That's when you're doing it for the purpose of a lot but let's say you're doing the katzera for an for people. You think Rebbe would be so cool to allow you cutting shlish now? Rebbe would not be to that but Rebbe is saying this about payer even so you cannot line up Rebbe and Rebbe and I know for a fact that Rebbe saying that this can't be because they can't have tonight. If you would be willing to say that Rebbe would be that even if this unripe grain is going to be for have tonight. It would be a three way in our in our mission and not a two way and that can't be. Now if you're asking yourself like why can't it be that there's a three way Rashi brings from the Gamara in Sanhedrin that whenever Rebbe starts off saying a he's explaining the preceding he's not coming to argue with a new sheet. So there is only two there's the kind of comment and Rebbe explanation of the kind of comment followed by Rebbe but there cannot be a three way so the Gamara is really trying to align with Rebbe with somebody. You know who? Rebbe can be aligned with Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe meaning Omer Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe meaning Omer Rebbe meaning even if you're doing the katzera for a person if that has not yet gotten to a shlish Rebbe Rebbe it's not considered a katzera. It learned in the mission in the third pair of payer Rebbe you harvest every other area in the field so you got these patches the Rebbe and you leave in that unharvested area some Rebbe those are stocks that are still fresh and green. Rebbe Omer every single respective area is considered like a separate field and therefore you need to have a different payer in each area. Rebbe Rebbe you could take one payer from all the different sections of the field because all of them are the same field. Rebbe Omer on that mission Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe the only time you're going to be a separate payer for each section is if you're harvesting all those different patches because you want to have you want to toast the kernels which are made of grain that have not yet achieved a shlish of its growth. So since that kind of katzera is not really considered a katzera in the first place therefore each bare area is going to end up dividing the field into many different fields. Rebbe Rebbe but let's say I am actually trying to store the grain like the regular way you do katzera and that's when you're doing the Rebbe then light it's not going to separate and you'll take one payer for the whole field. Now when you're talking about the you're still doing it for human consumption. People are going to eat these so according to Rebbe Rebbe that these grains that have not yet reached a shlish even though they're done for a person is not considered an act of katzera. So that is going to be perfectly in line with sheet of mayor. So yay now we have Rebbe going like the sheet of mayor. Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe required a separate payer for every section even when you did it to store the grain. So according to Rebbe Rebbe saying is a for fully ripened grain that was done for people. So that's not going to work with sheet of mayor because according to Rebbe as we just showed from the beforehand that once the grain got to its shlish of its growth it's katzera will be considered a katzera and therefore it will be considered the first stage in a wider katzera of the whole field. So here also Rebbe would hold that the initial katzera of this fully ripened grain is considered the beginning of the full process and therefore you wouldn't divide the field into separate sections requiring separate payers. Moving over to okay no big deal so have a look of Rebbe Rebbe can agree with Rebbe Rebbe one meaning that you're allowed to do the katzera before it reaches a shlish of its growth Rebbe but the idea of doing katzera for a person after it's gotten to a katzera after it's reached a shlish of its growth. So therefore even according to sheet of Rebbe Rebbe can still be going like Rebbe at least by the part that we were looking at. Then the mission had said Rebbe that you are allowed to do this katzera before the carbon Omer for these different so my time because the only time it's if you're doing it for yourself katzera but not for the purpose of a interestingly enough some of these may not be we mentioned yesterday that the asked about suggested maybe like the it's considered a but even without that this could be to Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe says Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe that it would even apply by because the whole is but this is not considered by Rebbe the same way this is not this is not your harvesting cuz you're doing it even for the mission Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe you shouldn't take the stocks of grain and tie them in bundles but leave them untied that's the so my time you leave them untied because the later as much as possible you don't want to have with all this cuz you might have accidentally eat it so sure you're allowed to cut it but then just leave it that way don't bundle it all up. Then the mission had said then the mission went on to say if you don't find unharvested grain then you could bring it from already stockpiled stuff. In other words do the but if you can't you go to the level. Then we learned in the Rebbe Rebbe when you bring a carbon you bring it from the first ones the so my time why does it seem to be a redundant part of the Rebbe Rebbe cuz the said you got to bring it from what's come up from what's standing up. How do you don't find from standing grain you you got to bring now from the previously cut grain Rebbe Rebbe just bring it Rebbe Rebbe it repeats that Rebbe you're supposed to bring it from fresh kernels you bring it from dried up ones Rebbe just bring it Rebbe why does it repeat it Rebbe cuz the real mission is to do it by night meaning the night of the 16th Rebbe how do you know that if you push it off to the day of the 16th it'll still be Rebbe Rebbe and how do you know that the Omer itself is Rebbe Rebbe just bring it. Now let's understand the Rebbe means no matter what whether it's standing or harvested Rebbe from any place even if it's far away from Rebbe Rebbe no matter what you got to bring the carbon Omer Rebbe even if you were in a because the you can certainly bring it Rebbe Rebbe if you do bring the Omer and it was harvested on the day of the 16th which is the it's still Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe but it's never the but it's understood that the twin shall meet the night mission is only by night the day mission is only by day. So Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe just like by the day time mission you can't do it like so after like this mission which is only a night mission Rebbe what do you mean you can cut the Omer by day you have to harvest it at night that's the Rebbe so Rebbe Rebbe our mission is going like sheet of Rebbe that's Rebbe to be harvested on the day of the 16th. But the mission in Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe if a is being the Omer on the day of the 16th he becomes Rebbe if there's other barley right there still attached to the ground so okay man get the other take its place. But let's say there's no other handy so we tell him have a just be smart and be quiet. Why? Because the that he has is going to be so you can anyway just bring it just don't talk about it. That's Rebbe Rebbe now he argues and says Rebbe we always tell him have a just always be quiet don't even exchange it. Rebbe you're already holding in a Rebbe because really you're supposed to be doing the on the night of the 16th. So now that you're doing it already during the day time you're already not doing it right. But what do you see that according to Rebbe Rebbe whether or not it's an option to do it by day is the according to Rebbe it's not to do it by day and Rebbe holds it is. Now Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe this day of Rebbe Rebbe is going like the sheet of his Rebbe Rebbe which if you think about it Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe was one of the five Rebbe Rebbe as we learned in the mission Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe Rebbe and if you could have done it before you cannot be now. Rebbe Rebbe and Rebbe holds like Rebbe that holds Rebbe which is going to be Rebbe as we learned in the mission in the first pair of Rebbe just like in general Rebbe is always an optional activity there's no in the Torah to ever be Rebbe so to the which the Torah is is a but a to be would be on so you have to Rebbe so therefore the Rebbe which is a is going to be Sefirah from the and therefore if the 16th of Nissan falls out on Shabbos, the Ketziras Ha'Omer is going to be performed on that night because the mitzvah of Ketziras Ha'Omer is going to be doicheh Shabbos. So, according to Rebbi Yishmael, the Ketziras Ha'Omer can happen on Shabbos. Therefore, Rebbi Elozar ben Rebbi Shimon is going like shitas Rebbi Yishmael. Now, these are called the nitzrach shleichei mitzvos. So, let's say you do the Ketziras Ha'Omer incorrectly, it's still going to be kosher and it'll still be doicheh Shabbos. So, nitzrach Erev Shabbos. Might as well just do before Shabbos. Ela mid'docheh Shabbos, since the Ketziras Ha'Omer we know is doicheh Shabbos. So, why don't we not nitzrach shleichei mitzvos if it's possible? Must be that it's critical to do it right. And if you do it before or after the night of the 16th, it will not be kosher. That will be the makor for Rebbi Elozar ben Rebbi Shimon. For everything in the Gemara, for Rebbi Levi, tell me the either Rebbi Shimon or who isn't Rebbi also a talmid of Rebbi Shimon? The Tanya, I'm going to show you how Rebbi is a talmid of his. Because omer Rebbi, "K'shehayinu l'meidin Torah eitzel Rebbi Shimon b'T'kua," which was a location, "hayinu malin l'shemen d'atlinus m'chotzer l'gag." We would carry the oil and the towels for him from a chotzer to the gag. M'gag l'karfei, m'karfei l'karfei acher. I'd shown him again l'ma'ayan. Shana rishona k'n'gai. Because of the hilchos Shabbos issues, they were carrying these things. But you see that even the talmid of Rebbi Shimon, and Rebbi Shimon was a talmid of Rebbi Akiva. Rebbi therefore, l'chareh, would be going like shitas Rebbi Akiva, that if you can do something before Shabbos, it's not going to be doicheh Shabbos. But Rebbi also holds that it's not m'akeiv to do the actual ketzirah on the leil Tisha B'Av. So, according to the Gemara, no problem. So, Rebbi like Eidech d'Rebbi Shimon. Rebbi holds like a different shita of Rebbi Shimon d'Tanya l'gabei the korban tamid and the korban musaf that's brought on Shabbos. Omer Rebbi Shimon, "Borei chamah k'divrei Mitzrayim b'Shabbos." Shari hector chalav u'veivarim k'sheim kol layla. Really, you could do hector chalav u'veivarim all night. Ela hayom tov l'chach t'cheishach. But yet, we still don't push it off until when it gets dark. But since it's l'chatchila to do this by day, we're doicheh Shabbos to do so. Because of the gavolta chabiva mitzvah b'Shabbos. So, come to say even though Rebbi is a talmid of Rebbi Shimon, still he would allow the Ketziras Ha'Omer to take place and be doicheh Shabbos. This idea that you don't want to push off a mitzvah, of course, there's multiple concepts in Shas Rebbi Shimon Weiss goes through to kind of qualify how do you work out chabiva mitzvah b'Shabbos. There's a reason why they do the mitzvah as mitzvah b'ol y'da'alta chachmei S'na. Shiyu'i mitzvah leibisha einan im aviran al mitzvos. So, without us tackling that at all, but just be aware that that's always what you've got to grapple with whenever you get these kinds of Sugyas, how to qualify which one to say what. Anyway, Rebbi Elozar ben Rebbi Shimon l'shitas Rebbi Shimon l'shitas Rebbi Akiva. You think Rebbi Elozar ben Rebbi Shimon didn't learn this deya from Rebbi Shimon? Of course, he knew it. But he must have held that if you could do the Ketziras Ha'Omer kodem Shabbos, then it's not doicheh Shabbos. And therefore, it's not a raya that fact that he was matir burning the chalav u'veivarim on Shabbos as a heter to be ketzir of the Omer on Shabbos. Ela shani Hashem because shari dochsah shchita es ha'Shabbos. You already find that the shchita was doicheh Shabbos. You've already started the process here. So, the heter of the chalav u'veivarim is kind of an extension of that already d'chiya of Shabbos. Omer Rebbi Akiva nami, even according to Rebbi, that heter chalav u'veivarim is going to be doicheh Shabbos only because dochsah shchita es ha'Shabbos. So, by the Ketziras Ha'Omer, where Shabbos was not already nidcha, you don't see that just because the extra mile of doing the mitzvah in the best time on leil Tisha B'Av is not necessarily enough of a heter. So, you don't have a raya from heter chalav u'veivarim. Ela k'sav Rebbi, Ketziras Ha'Omer lo doicheh Shabbos. You know what? Let's just say that Rebbi holds it's not doicheh Shabbos. This is an assumption we've been making, but who says it's even true? Prak d'Gemara, loy. You want to tell me that the Ketziras Ha'Omer not doicheh Shabbos? I have a tnan. We have all these Mishnayos. The Mishna said before back on samech gimel, "V'chachamim omrim me'echad Shabbos l'echad chel." "M'shalesh hayavah." The Omer was brought from three sides. Clearly, even being doicheh Shabbos. Look at the Gemara, okay, the like of Rebbi. Sure, Rebbi went ahead and was masader these Mishnayos. But he didn't hold that way himself. Okay, but later on in that same Mishna, "V'chachamim omrim me'echad Shabbos l'echad chel m'shalesh av sh'losh kupos m'shalesh magolis." Okay, also the like of Rebbi. The Chachamim that shita not going like Rebbi. But what about the Mishna on samech ches that says, "U've'Shabbos yomru lahem, Shabbos zu." And they say, "Yes." And then they do it. Now, also the like of Rebbi. What about what we learn from our Mishna? "Nitzrach b'yom kosher." If the the Omer was nitzrach on the day of the 16th, it would be kosher. "V'doicheh es ha'Shabbos." So, "Man Shabbos lo do Omer nitzrach b'yom kosher." Who's that deya? That's takah Rebbi. "D'katani b'deicheh es ha'Shabbos." My love to the ketzirah. So, aren't we talking about the ketzirah that's being doicheh Shabbos? This isn't even within the same shita of Rebbi. Look at the Gemara, loy. L'hakrava. Not talking about the d'chiya of Shabbos for ketzirah. We're talking about the d'chiya of Shabbos for hakrava. Ela k'tzirah, loy. Ben Chanamya, according to Rebbi, you're not ketzir on Shabbos. I have a Tanya. The Braisa says, "Rebbi Omer, "Vayidaber Moshe es my'adei Hashem." Mah talmud lomar? Why does the Torah have to repeat that which we already know? "L'ficha lo lamadnu ela l'tamid u'Pesach." We already learned we're doicheh Shabbos and tumah only l'gabei the korban tamid and korban Pesach. "Sh'ne'emar b'hemb'moyadav." "From moyadav afilu is b'Shabbos u'd'arosh." Even on Shabbos. "U'b'moyadav afilu b'tumah." "Sha'ar korbanos tzibur minayin?" How do you know that other korbanos are also going to have this d'chiya tumah? "L'omar the Torah therefore says by the korban musaf, "Eleh l'Hashem b'moyadeihem." "Minayin l'rabos Omer v'hakoreiv imo?" How do you know to include the Omer itself and that which is brought with the Omer, which is the shtei lachem? "And shtei lachem v'hakoreiv imo?" "Shtei lachem and that which is brought with it," meaning the gifts of Atzeres. "Talmud l'omar the Torah therefore says "Vayidaber Moshe es my'adei Hashem." "Hakosev kova moyad l'chulah." The Torah made its official time for all these things. Therefore, all korbanos tzibur, including the Omer and the shtei lachem, are going to be doicheh Shabbos and brought on Shabbos and even if they're in a matzav of tumah. Now, l'mayi? In what aspect of the korban Omer is the Braisa talking about? "I im l'hakrava." If you're going to tell me it's talking about that kravah which can't be done on Shabbos, well, that can't be. Because if you're telling me the cases of the Omer and the shtei lachem are the same, the Braisa is telling us that they're the same. The shtei lachem and their kravah, "Einan nu." Do you bring the shtei lachem on the mizbei'ach? You certainly do not. "Ela shitas l'trina v'harkavah minayin?" Must be talking about the other malachos of the shtei lachem. Milling, sifting, that sort of stuff which you can do before Shabbos. If it's the kavasa gabei Omer, then the same parallel will be by the korban Omer l'ketzirah because doicheh Shabbos. So, the Braisa is telling us that these kinds of malachos are being doicheh Shabbos. So, according to Rebbi, the ketzirah could be doicheh Shabbos. So, the Gemara says, "No. Ela Omer l'krava." By the Omer, we're takah talking about kravah. Shtei lachem is l'afiyah for the baking of the shtei lachem. So, Rebbi tanur m'kadesh. Rebbi holds that the oven that the shtei lachem are put in is actually gives it its kedushas haguf. "Ein ye'afuy lemei esmo." And if you takah bake it previous day, it's l'velinah. Because the oven would give it its kedushas haguf, that night would actually give it a psulinah. So, therefore, the shtei lachem cannot be baked before Shabbos. It has to be done on Shabbos. Therefore, clearly, it's doicheh Shabbos. But the Braisa is not talking about the Ketziras Ha'Omer, but it's talking about the Haktaras Ha'Omer. And therefore, it's not a stira if you tell me according to Rebbi, the Omer is not doicheh Shabbos. Prak d'Gemara, "B'sava Rebbi tanur m'kadesh." This detail that you're telling me the oven is actually what makes the shtei lachem and gives it its kedushas haguf. "I have a Tanya." The Braisa says, "Kivsei Atzeres ein m'kadeshin es ha'lachem ela b'shchita u'k'tza." How does the shchitas of the kvasim, how does that give the kedushah to the lachem? "V'shachtu l'shman v'zarku daman l'shman kodash l'lachem." "V'shachtu sh'lo l'shman v'zarku daman sh'lo l'shman lo kodash l'lachem." "V'shachtu l'shman v'zarku daman sh'lo l'shman lachem kodash v'einan kodash." That's all d'vei Rebbi. Rebbi Elozar ben Rebbi Shimon omer "L'eilu min hakodashim achshei shchitas l'shman v'yizreik daman l'shman." What do you see from the Braisa? That the shtei lachem are niskadesh al yedei d'shchitas of the kvasim and not al yedei the baking in the oven. Omer Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak, "Okhlu u'la okhlu k'omer." The Braisa is talking about is the kvius of the shtei lachem that you can't swap them out for anything else. But the Braisa is not actually talking about being niskadesh, but just being kaveya which ones are going to be accompanying the kivsei Atzeres. And therefore, there is no kasha on Rebbi about the oven being m'kadesh the shtei lachem. "K'd'Rebbi Elozar ben Rebbi Yishmael." "M'shishim tamid we're going to start the seventh perek." "Omer Rebbi Elozar ben Rebbi Shimon, "M'shishim tamid we're going to start the seventh perek." "Omer Rebbi Elozar ben Rebbi Shimon, "M'shishim tamid we're going to start the seventh perek." "Omer Rebbi Elozar ben Rebbi Shimon, "M'shishim tamid we're going to start the seventh perek." "Omer Rebbi Elozar ben Rebbi Shimon, "M'shishim tamid we're going to start the seventh perek." "Omer Rebbi Elozar ben Rebbi Shimon, "M'shishim tamid we're going to start the seventh perek." "Omer Rebbi Elozar ben Rebbi Shimon, "M'shishim tamid we're going to start the seventh perek." "Omer Rebbi Elozar ben Rebbi Shimon, "M'shishim tamid we're going to start the seventh perek."