Menachos Daf 55

Okay, dafnum hey, this is shabbos's daf. We were discussing this idea of shiurim. Do we look at the original point of how large the shiur is or do we look at the current state of how large is the shiur? It does seem like this is a very far-reaching kind of a sugia and the rishonim do discuss whether or not this will have implications for hilchos shabbos, hilchos brachos and then and there's different kinds of applications. It's very possible that this is localized only to minachos and you can't stell it too. But we're going to pick it up now 12 lines I think down on nun dalet amud beis. It's about a third of the way down in the amud to shima. Let's bring another rayev from this following braysa. Termin teinim al greigris b'minyan. So over here it says the word termin but we're understanding it to talk about ma'aser. So the halacha is you can be ma'aser the teinim on the greigris. The difference between teinim and greigris they're both all figs but teinim are the fresh figs and the greigris are the dried out figs. And the halacha is when you separate ma'aser, your 10%, you do it based on the number of figs not on the volume of the figs. The volume has now changed because as they dry they shrink. So ya amar bishlama k'mo she hein m'sha'arin shaper. If you're always looking at the way they were initially it makes sense that we're saying you should count that number. But ela amrad k'mo she hein the way they are right now and you're just picking the same number havealei mar b'vei ma'aseris. If you're taking now fresh figs according to their number now you're taking too much and it actually matters when you take ma'aser if you take too much because the tanya the braysa says amar b'vei ma'aseris. Sure it does fix those tevel d'ka peros but u'ma'aseris m'kulkalan. But the ma'aser is now problematic because now the ma'aser's got mixed in there a little beyond the 10% and therefore now your ma'aser is not pure ma'aser anymore and now the levi or anybody else can't even eat it. So in order to achieve an exact 10% it must be the tanna of the braysa understanding that you're looking at it k'mo she hein the way they were not the way they are. So ela mai l'kmo she hein? So what you're going to say according to the tanna of the braysa ela mai l'kmo she hein the way they were initially am a seifa but the end of the braysa is not going to stem because greigris al teinim b'mida. If you're separating ma'aser from the dried figs for the fresh ones you do it by the mida meaning by the volume not by the amount of figs. Now ya amar bishlama k'mo she hein shaper. If you're saying we're going to look at it as they are now that makes sense that you're saying it by volume because how much is it now? Ela amrad l'kmo she hein the way they were mar b'vei ma'aseris. If you're separating the dried figs by volume you're going to have to take them too much because it got smaller so you're going to need to take more and now you're going to be m'kalkel the ma'aseris. So really we have a stir up minei u'vei in the braysa itself because the first part of the braysa is saying you can look at the original matziv of its size and the end of the braysa is saying you look at it currently. Ela hacha b'truma g'dola askinan. You know what we must not be talking about ma'aser at all we're talking about truma the separation of truma and as opposed to ma'aser truma you can actually give extra and therefore v'reisha b'ayin yaffa v'seifa b'ayin yaffa. How do you give extra which is fine by truma and this braysa simply telling us how to achieve that extra how to do that ayin yaffa. So yochi am a seifa but if you're telling me we're talking about truma g'dola and not ma'aser how do you read the end of the braysa where it says amar rebbi elazar bar rebbi yossi abba haya natel es greigris shib m'ktzua al tishim shib kalkala. That rebbi yossi would take 10 dried figs from this m'ktzua which is some kind of a kayli that was used when they used to make the dried figs and he would separate them against the 90 fresh figs that were still in the kalkala still in the basket. So we're talking about taking 10%. Now if you have truma g'dola es amaya videtei. What are you what are you talking about 10 at all? It's not the way truma works. Ela hacha b'trumas ma'aser askinan. We're talking about not truma g'dola but trumas ma'aser. That's what the levi has to take off 10% of what he got as ma'aser and that's the trumas ma'aser and is given to the kayin just like any other truma. So the braysa is talking about being termin it's talking about what the levi takes off his trumas ma'aser. The abba elazar ben gamla and this 10% is a going according to rebbi elazar ben gamla or rebbi elazar ben gamla depending on your girsa who holds that trumas ma'aser like truma g'dola can be done by ayin yaffa. Deid tanya because the braysa says abba elazar ben gamla omer v'nechshav lachem trumas achechem b'shte trumas k'sos midaber achas truma g'dola v'achas trumas ma'aser and k'shem she truma g'dola niteles b'ayin yaffa u'v'machshava just like truma g'dola has the halachos that you can take it off by estimating the ayin yaffa and u'v'machshava and not doing any physical hafrasha but just by announcing that it's truma kach trumas ma'aser niteles b'ayin yaffa moving over to amud dalet u'v'machshava. And lastly and the important thing that's negeya to us my truma g'dola by ayin yaffa ach trumas ma'aser by ayin yaffa it's not only totally in the ratio but you can give extra. This idea that truma g'dola can be done by ayin yaffa u'v'machshava Rashi says literally just with machshava that you just look at it and that works to separate it. Peisas is not so sure. When he quotes Rashi he suggests that maybe you actually do need to speak it out. And this actually may relate to what we've discussed when it comes to pigul in general whenever we talk about machshava does that also mean al yedei amira? On the other hand maybe it doesn't but we're just mentioning it cuz perhaps. Okay now about that braysa zok the gemara u'mina from that braysa amar rebbi elazar bar rebbi yossi we had quoted abba haya natel es greigris shib m'ktzua al tishim shib kalkala. That he would take 10 dried figs from this m'ktzua from this kayli and separate them against the 90 fresh ones that were still in the basket. Now ya amar bishlama l'kmo she hein amrinan shaper. If you're going to say that the way we look at the shiurim as they were initially then okay it makes sense that you're going to take away 10 for trumas ma'aser against the 90. Ela amrad k'mo she hein but if you're saying that they're done as they are now so botzer l'hu then the 10 dry ones that rebbi yossi separated are going to be too small cuz they've shrunken and you won't take enough trumas ma'aser. And for the gemara ki yosav dimya amar rebbi elazar the shani greigris the whole issue of your greigris are different because halviyacha l'shulchan u'l'chatzran k'mo she hein. You can always just immerse them in kind of water let them bloat and become the bigger shiur. So the fact that they are now shrunken is not really necessarily a problem anyway to say oh it's not enough. It is enough cuz you can always make them bigger. Tanna rabbanan more about being tayrim d'teinim. Tayrim d'teinim al greigris you can separate trumas ma'aser from the fresh ones for the dried ones b'makom sh'rugil l'aseis teinim greigris in a place where that's the minig to make fresh teinim into the greigris. But v'la greigris al teinim but you can't separate trumas ma'aser from dried ones which are smaller for the fresh ones b'afilu b'makom sh'rugil l'aseis teinim greigris. Now amar mar let's understand this. Termin teinim al greigris b'makom sh'rugil l'aseis teinim greigris which sounds like b'makom sh'rugil in but b'makom she ain rugil loi. So heichi dami? What would be that case that you can't do it? E di ika kayin if there's a kayin there who could be m'kabel the trumas ma'aser right now while they're still fresh then makom she ain rugil al mai loi. Why can't you separate these fresh ones for the dried ones v'hatznon the mishna in the second perek of trumas says makom she yesh kayin termin ayin yaffa. As long as there's a kayin here you can always give the more chashuva fresh ones which are certainly considered superior. In other words just to point out it's always going to be more chashiv to give the fresh figs. The maila of the dried ones is they last longer but if there's a kayin here to accept it now so I don't have to worry about storage give them the fresh ones. So why wouldn't I just be able to give it to the kayin who's there? Ela p'shita d'leika kayin must be there is no kayin available and therefore I need to let these things be niska'in. They have to dry out cuz otherwise they'll spoil. But am a seifa look at the end of the braysa v'loi greigris al teinim. You can't separate the dried ones for the fresh ones b'afilu b'makom sh'rugil l'aseis teinim greigris even in a place where that's the minig to make fresh figs into the dry figs. Now if you eat the kayin am a loi. If there's no kayin there why can't I separate the dried ones for the fresh ones? Because v'atznon that same mishna in trumas says makom she ain kayin termin min am a skayin. You could always separate from the ones in the skayin rather than the ones that are fresher ela p'shita di ika kayin must be there is a kayin there so there's a stir up minei u'vei. So for the gemara reisha d'leika kayin the seifa di ika kayin. And the gemara says yeah in reisha d'leika kayin the seifa di ika kayin. And amar papa what do you see from this? Shma minah from the fact that we're willing to explain the braysa this way d'achkinan u'makminin masnisan b'trei tinai. We'd rather say there's two different matzavim in the same braysa v'leim k'minan b'trei tinai rather than thinking it two different tanoim. It's more of a dachuk to change the case than the authors. Zok the mishna kol haminachos n'lashais b'pashrin. Besides the other ingredients in the korban mincha you have to add lukewarm water that will make the best mixture and dough. U'mishamaran but you got to be careful to guard it sh'lo yachmitzu that it shouldn't become chametz cuz the warm water will accelerate that process. And these aside from the shtei l'chem in the korban tamid must be matza and not chametz. Next halacha v'im hechmitzu shiyareha the part of the korban mincha that's left over after the kametz is taken away and brought on the mizbeiach that shiyarei mincha is eaten by the kohanim. So even if that part becomes chametz over l'eis asay. Now the mishna jumps back and gives us a makor for the first halacha of the mishna that the actual mincha needs to have its shmira not to become chametz shenemar kol mincha asher takrivu l'hashem lo y'aseh chametz. And then the mishna ends off v'chayev al lisha'ah. And you're going to get malkus for the kneading the lisha'ah of that mincha that was nischametz. V'al aricha'ah by shaping the dough v'al afiya'ah and not baking. Each stage of working with this chimutz is going to be a separate lav. Zok the gemara minan imili. This is now asking for a makor for the shiyarei of mincha that it can't be nischametz. Amar reish lakish d'amar kra lo y'aseh ofe chametz chelkom. D'afilu chelkom lo y'aseh ofe chametz. Even their chelek meaning the kohanim who have the shiyarei mincha cannot bake these things as chametz. Zok the gemara you're telling me that pasuk is available? It's not it's used up. V'hai lo hatzi u'd'asa homi b'lei l'chidei tanya loi turning over to amud beis say ofe chametz ma tamud You already know you can't make it chametz. So why are we talking about this afiya'ah separately? L'fi she nemar lo y'aseh ofe chametz yachol lo y'hei chayav ela al achas al kulam. Maybe you're only going to get one set of malkus for all of these different preparatory stages of the chametz. Tamud leimar lo y'aseh ofe afiya'ah b'chlal ha'isa. So lama yatzas? So why was it singled out in the pasuk after the afiya'ah? There's other parts of preparatory stages. L'hakeish alaiha ma afiya'ah miyuchades she ma'aseh yechidi v'chayavin alaiha b'nei'atzma. Af anyovi lisha'ah v'aricha'ah these other preparatory parts b'chol ma'aseh yechidi shebo. Every other ma'aseh yechidi every other distinct ma'aseh that you do in the preparation of a korban mincha are all going to be chayav malkus. And the gemara just explains l'asuyei kituf. The tanna is coming to include even smoothing out the surface of the dough with water sh'hu ma'aseh yechidi which is also a distinct ma'aseh in the preparation of the dough. So back to the braysa v'chayavin alaiha b'nei'atzma. You get malkus for each one of these different ma'asim by themselves. But anyway the point is the pasuk is already used up. Lo y'aseh ofe is not available for reish lakish's drasha. Zok the gemara cuz anan mechelkam kamrinan. Reish lakish was saying that the shiyareim are going to be assur to be nischametz from the from the chelkom part of the pasuk. Have a m'kulo hachi d'asa. Maybe it's only coming for reish lakish's din and that you don't get a separate malkus for each one of these different ma'asim. Not because im kein lichtei chelkom lo y'aseh ofe chametz. My lo y'aseh ofe chametz chelkom written in that order shma minah tarti both halachos. That each one is a separate malkus and that they can't become nischametz. Zok the gemara v'eima afiya'ah d'parit b'rachmana. Maybe afiya'ah the baking that it is separated and spelled out that's l'chayev chada. That you get one set of Malkos, but Enoch regarding the other things, Delisha, the Aricha, etc. Maybe the Hadaku, maybe there's only one set of Malkos if you do all of them together. How do you know that the Afia is a model to give you separate Malkos for every one of those other Mison? The Gemara gives Mison the have a Dover Shaya of a Chalo the Yotzim in a Chalo Lalamed. So Lalamed Al Achmi Yotza El Lalamed Al Kalkula Yotza. So therefore you know each one is going to get its own Malkos. From the Gemara of Eima Laisa says Klal Lo Say Ofer is Prat and Klal Prat Ein B'Klal Al Masha B'Prat which would tell us Afia in Mediacrino light. So Amar Rebbi Afturiki, no, because Mison the have a Klal U'Prat Amaru Chakin Zemi Zeh. It's not a regular Klal U'Prat because they are not together. So Shailan the Rishonim, does that mean they are just interrupted by other words in the same Pasuk or they have to literally be far away from each other? But either way, this is certainly an example of when they are Maruchakin. The Klal U'Prat Amaru Chakin Zemi Zeh Ein Don An Oisen B'Klal U'Prat. Is that so Pasuk from the Gemara? Masiv Rav Ada Bar Ahava the Amar Lakadi which is a question whether or not it was his name or it means somebody else that we don't have a name for him, but either way, the Kasha was the Klal U'Prat Amaru Chakin Zemi Zeh Ein Don An Oisen Klal U'Prat. Bo Hatanya I'll show you a separate Braisa that has no Shiyachas to us, but to Upshlog this idea because the Torah says regarding a Korban Chatas by the Melech. V'Shachatei Say B'Makom Asher Yishachet Es Ha'Olah Nashim Chatas U. So Chegan Olah Nishchat In Where Does A Korban Olah Get Nishchat In B'Tzafon? In the Tzafon part of the Chatzer of the Beis Hamikdash. So Av Zeh B'Tzafon Also the Melech when he brings his Soyar, he also brings it in the North. From the Gemara of Rabbi Chanina Ben Kalamedin, do I know that that's where he brings the Korban Chatas from? V'Halach L'Faneim Amar B'Makom Asher Tishachet Olah Tishachet Chatas. In the same place where you Shachet the Korban Olah you Shachet the Korban Chatas. So we always know that you do it in Tzafon and we wouldn't need to learn it there. So Hal L'Maza Yotza, why is the Chatas Nasi singled out Dafka in that Pasuk L'Kayvi to establish it there in the Tzafon? Sheim Lo Yishachet Yotza, is that the reason why the Nasi's Chatas is singled out? To tell me that it's Makiv by Ein El Asher Aton Tzafon. The Ein Acher Aton Tzafon. Maybe that no other Korban is required to be in the Tzafon. Tell me otherwise we have a third Pasuk. Tamar L'Eimar B'Shachet Es Chatas B'Makom Ha'Olah. Zeh Bana Av L'Cholo Ha'Tays She Tu Es Tzafon. You always need to be in the Tzafon. Now Tamar L'Eimar B'Shachet Es Chatas Halavachi Had Not Been For That Pasuk Have I Amini Asher Aton Tzafon V'Ein Acher Aton Tzafon. But my Tamar Lav Mishum The Have A Klal U'Prat V'Yafal Gav D'Maruchakin Zemi Zeh Don An Oisen B'Klal U'Prat. So here was our punchline that you see K'Neged Rav Afturiki that even though they are not together we'll still say the idea of Klal U'Prat. To which the Gemara says Masiv Rav Ada Bar Ahava understood the Pasuk. Hi Klal U'Prat Is It Really Even A Klal U'Prat? U. The Nasi Klal Mosif Al A Prat. It's Rabbi Lo Komidi And Therefore All Korbanos Chatas Are Going To Be Chayev To Be Done In The Tzafon. And Therefore It Won't Be Shver On Rav Afturiki. We're Still In The Middle Of This Discussion, But We're Going To Pick It Up With Elitana I Say For Sunday's Daf.