Menachos Daf 52

All right, daff nun bay shushan puram's daf and today we get to finish the fourth perk of but first we got this last blot to do we've been discussing the kavul and in the course of yesterday's daf we mentioned the takonas that were made from the mission in skull and now we're picking up three lines from the bottom of another one of the takas that they made afraaduma they made a takona that the apher that those ashes that are made from the paraduma will not have an issa for actar you're telling me they made that there's no that's a dend that the terra calls the paradum which means really there should be a ma for a paraduma just like a regular carbon katas and then it says he moving over however that there's no on the don't tell me it's a which answers just like yesterday's d we had the similar kind of an idea Historically there were two different takas in reference to the paraduma there is going to be a regular israil for a paraduma for the actual animal but for its aph for a milein there will not be any ma however once saw that people were being mazal with the aph for how are they being mazal because once they saw that there's no is well they were using it for their own purposes they were using it for purposes of rafu soil so said you know what let's actually make an on the for but there was an unintended consequence when people were misupic was I really mat myself to me or was I not mama myself people were misupic and therefore they would say well I don't want to go ahead in the event that I didn't need the apher and receive a ho because then I maybe and the way the English suggested let's say a person was very hot during the summer and they were getting sprited by this nice cool meatas water that has the aphropara in it they could potentially be so the from kite of people prevented them from getting a haz done if they were suffic which is even a worse tit from the whole thing. So hazal went back and to go back and put the original pur of ma for the apher par because that will ultimately yield a greater good that people will at least get the haz that they need and they were not concerned as much about the potential zilz. Now a couple points to make on this gar. So this case of suffk that the gumar ends off with that people would refrain from doing wonders what was a case of suffik to mace. We have rules about these sort of things. Was it suffik which would be or was it suffik which would be tar going to be one of the two. So how do you have a case of suffik tomas mace at all? So maybe this could be like the case in the nazer where there's two people and there's a sufficil we don't know which one was which. And then the schlema brings up the issue of safikula over there. So that's all regarding the end of the gumarab. But there's two important Tyus had to learn on this gamarra also where the garra in the beginning says that because of the word katas he kas implies that it's going to have an isma just like by a carbon katas and tyus wants to know at the bottom of bay why would I even need a mocker to tell me that a paraduma as an animal is going to have an isma typically everything that's hdish has an isma I don't need a new mocker to tell me that it's like a carbon kas and tyus answers no there is a pr of the as that you're right we know that there's going to be but how do you know there will be an isma which means it's not because it's by that's but why isn't being is a function of its available to be you can have soil it goes out and a parad which the gar tells us clearly you can be paid you can exchange it for a different paradum if you find a better one it should be and Why would it be? So the stipler wants to explain this T is based on various that says that a paradum's kaduca will be totally on how you want to use it. If you choose to act with it as the paradum, it will have kaducious and will not be. But if you choose to be paid to it, it'll have a kaducious and it could be and the stifler says that's actually the entis's terrorists that go for the of the word in the kas is telling us that it has thatic status based on that. The other Tyus that's very important over here is the top tyus where Ty is saying that why was the Tyra telling us the lisa you're not m in the aair why do I even need a kesh every apher of hegdish is always mutter that's the sugura on ladalid that tells us that once you burn a carbon there is no isma on its aair and Tyus gives us two teruten one is because normally by the apher of a carbon that apher is not what I'm interested in I'm interested the actual carbon but here by the paraduma my whole point is to create the apher the person is nika in that apher and therefore But there would be an issue second terret that typically the reason why there's no ma on apher is because it's already nasa mitzvah but here it's not nasa mitzvah because you're supposed to do the mitzvah with the apher a similar kind of an idea but more about the mechanics of the nasis mitzvah and the brisk goes on this nasa mitzvah in carbon making but we're going to go two dots the b says those carbonas that are brought When Bezen makes an incorrect sack where they bring the parhelib or if they make a mistake about when they bring the sawyer so we don't take from the existing money to buy those konas but rather you make a new collection at that point but the money comes from the existing money from the from the trumas which was collected from different already we have a different that says that the names of switched all you got to figure out which is the more authoritative bry so which one came afterwards so amuh Let's say that the first one we quoted is the one that was taught last because it makes more sense that that's the more authoritative bry since is the one who's so less likely that he would say we should collect new money and rather we should go back to the trumalishka now where do we see that was because we said that the yim were in paying for the kavitten until the new god was appointed and that's why they went back to the dindisa that the would pay for the expense of these kittens for that. It could be that that latter quoted Brycea which says we make a new collection. That was the one that was taught second because that's a case where there's no kapara from it like the case of those yarn when their father the died in the middle of the day that's when they're not interested in paying not that we're always just for a no matter what. So my what's the bottom line who which which is going to be the more authoritative the says these seemingly redundant words in the paran because we have this existing bry that must be the ikarita of shiman and therefore so just like the first brya that was quoted in argamar that must be the ikittita of rib shim and therefore that's the one that was taught second and more authoritative Then the Mishnad said of that if the kayen died and no kayen had yet been appointed a total full is brought as the instead of just the according to it was paid for by the and according to it was paid for by the board. What does the mission mean? That a holy serum was brought in the morning and another holy serum was brought in the afternoon or maybe a holy serum was brought in the morning and they didn't bother bringing the kavan in the afternoon. Let's bring a from the mission in the fourth per of shimini kavan. This is the mission int that goes through the whole process of all 13 different kahan that were doing the different carbonas of the tid in the morning and the afternoon. So when it gets to the eighth kayen his job was to bring the kavan up the ramp. that was his role. If you're telling me that the were not necessarily done in the afternoon, if there was no on that particular day and they already brought the fullarn in the morning, so how can the mission just say unequivocally that the eighth kayen is going to bring the maybe you're not even bringing it. What would that case be? Menu in a scenario when the Cayenne godle died that morning and they didn't yet appoint another one there would be no eighth cayenne bringing the but yet the mission says there is must be that you always do bring in in the afternoon even if the complete isar was brought by the cayenne that morning from the Mishna in Omar those silly Babylonians which is the same expression you remember from of eating bread with bread which I remember for those you member of Ralshore who suggested that's what a falafel is because inside of your falafel you have your Israeli salad plus your falafel balls which essentially is just vegetables that are fried. It's the same kind of thing of like it's like you're putting in the same ingredients just in another kind of form but that's neither here nor there. So getting back to our living in a dark place because was topographically very low. So they also say dark mammor which was basically his way of saying it's not a good riot just because the fact that the Mishna lists the cayenne as the eighth cayenne. Therefore what you want to say unequivocally you can never have an eighth kayen bring in the kavan. Well you're also going to have a seventh being the silus and the ninth be wine. They were also never pushed off. It's not true. We've learned this beforehand. and that could be done even much later. So it's not that it has to be done that way. Like we're not talking about the what if cases. Remember when you're in elementary school and you always have that one kid saying what if this like we're not asking what if cases. The Mishna generally says that the eighth is going to take the up the ramp. A you want to give me a case? What if this happens? Okay, that's not what we're talking We're talking about normal cases. We're not talking about the what if cases they told line back to that the were because of this and Omar said they only say over our arguments and but they don't say our good tightness. This is why they have such a low opinion of us because they don't say over our better memory. And then said but the truth is I do think this is a good argument because even if you're not going to bring a riot from that I can still bring you from the Tyra is telling us that the should be just like the of the and just like the car is always in the morning and in the afternoon and you never push it off. You don't ever suspend that. So toan is never suspended. So that's going to be my muker that even if you bring the holy sarin in the morning another holy isarin should be brought in the afternoon. So my law what's the bottom line is like that we bring a holy in the morning and the afternoon or that if you bring the holy sarin in the morning you don't bother bringing one in the afternoon you bring a holy sarn in the morning and a whole is in the afternoon you do a twice for the often amry You do one of chakras seems pushed to the gar that you need to put the kits of lava as part of the min. But now argamar is bringing are you separating one kit across both of these or do you bring a second in the afternoon we never find that is brought with a just doesn't happen. We never find that one isarin that would have two kumatzen of a levina. Rabbi Gross spoke out from Solvich that perhaps a deeper level of this shila in the garra is how do we look at the whole mitzvah of the kavan that are brought twice is that one mitzvah or two mitzvah the counts it as practically one mitzvah but perhaps they're really arguing about we view it as a single mitzvah to do or perhaps it's two independent mitzvah which would each require its own turning over according to that hold that of a katarin requires a half of a kit of lavina. Should you double that lavina? In other words, should you bring a whole kit of lavina with a holy sin for the morning and another whole kit with another holy sin in the afternoon? Maybe not. Maybe only bring half of the kit of lavina with the morning and a half in the afternoon. So what's the sh double the amount of flour? So maybe we should also double the amount of the tire doesn't say that you should double it. So then don't and the oil that we add to the should be the should you also double the oil because if you're doubling the amount of flour maybe you should also double the oil or maybe not so bring arrive from a Mishna because the Mishna is going to tell us later on there are five different times you take a kates and it doesn't list the leva of the because it's only listing those times where you're taking a full kmate but if it was true like according to Rabon that you used a full kates of lavina with each when there's no kayen it's going to come out that sometimes you're going to have seven and it won't be five because these two of that come along within one kit of lev in the morning and one k in the afternoon should both have been listed as part of the list so the total amount of times when a kit is going to be broad is going to be seven even though the two kumat are for one carbon but the kumar saying you should still count it as two different kamatzan just like the mission counts two kamat levina along with two separate kamat even though they're only one that's what rashi brings but the says nishkaya We're not giving you the what if cases and case it's only going to be five meaning this idea that the Elo are not what about someone who brings the outside that's certainly a what if kind of a case doesn't happen very often that you bring it outside the B mdish and that's in the Mishna. So if the tan is including those kinds of unusual cases, it should also be the case of the cayen who dies that that should also be listed and therefore it should be a riot that even when the silus is doubled the leva should have the same amount. So myav what's the bottom line of bring a ri from the bry of data our case. Whoa, look at you. You look so amazing. >> Wow, you that's a beautiful costume. Wow, you look beautiful. Oh, look at you flying around. You bring a holy sin in the morning and a whole schllayma one in the afternoon. You bring two different of you separate three lugan of oil for it. Now money who's the price of going like if you want to say it's going and therefore we're supposed to say that the is going to be doubled but the she's not it must be the price is going even by the regular you always need two of that's why it's the same thing is not going to have twice the amount and the oil is not going to have twice the amount so based on this bra we're going to be pushing to shil whether or not you're going to double the amount of shemen because you see it's Not in the same way we're being that according to we're not doubling the oil when there's no last that is the TIS asks over here at the end what's the difference why does it even matter in other places etc gives us other reasons why we would have these kinds of like that is alive it's an entire of with of the morning and another whole of the and we have a stop which doesn't list the of the going according is arguing with the other saying the is going like and with that and tomorrow we get to start the fifth par Menus.