Menachos Daf 103

All right, Duff Cuff Gimel. Friday's Duff, picking it up at the two dots at the bottom of Cuff Base and the Base. The mission had told us the hillik between if you promised to bring your mincha in a machvas or margeshas, and we made a treechasa based on whether or not qualitative versus quantitative. But now the gamara picks it up. Zulo haviva machvas, the mincha's going to be possel. Bring the mincha in the wrong kayli, it's going to be possel, game over. Now if I have to go over what Tanya there's a brisa that says loy kitcham klishares, sounds like it just doesn't do anything. Not that it's possel, but that it just didn't work, so fix it. Put the mincha in the proper kayli. So here the brisa is kind of going to our mishna. Amra baya loy kitcham likarev. What the brisa means is that it didn't work to be makdish it that you could use it as a mincha. Aval kitcham li possel. So this is the brisa that says loy kitcham klishares, it means it's still possel. It just didn't work to make it work as a mincha. But avada it is possel just like our mishna says. So there's no steer between the mishna and the brisa. Yom rabaya, another halacha, loy shanu. This din of our mishna, that if you said you're going to bring it in a machvas and you brought it in a margeshas that it becomes possel, moving over to medaled. Elasha koven bishas neder. That's when you said what kind of a mincha had to be at the time of the neder. Avu bishas hafrasha, let's say only at the time when you actually were mafresh it, but bishas actual neder you just said I was going to bring a general mincha without specifying. Then loy, then it's not going to be possel because your original neder was not specific and therefore you could bring it either in a machvas or margeshas. The fact that you were mefaresh bishas hafrasha doesn't seem to matter. Why? Because he darshans kasher nadarta, like you made the neder, viloy kasher hifrashta. And then maranami we see this halacha also that om rabbi achbar nina om rabbi assi om rabbi achbar chanan. Loy shanu elasha koven bishas neder. Avu bishas hafrasha loy because kasher nadarta, viloy kasher hifrashta. So the only time we're going to say it's possel is when bishas neder you actually spoke it out very clearly that you're going to do it in one of those kind of kaylim. So like the mishna, ho imer haray alai mincha, mincha sayrim. Of course that's wrong, you're supposed to bring a mincha from saylis, but you're saying you want to bring a mincha from sayrim. Now there are certain opportunities where you could bring a mincha from sayrim, but not as a yochid, as a carbon sebor you could. Or a yochid could do it from mincha shchita, but that can't be done Min Nedavah. So, here is a guy who's a Yochid, he's trying to say a Chare Alai, meaning his own Nedavah, and he wants to bring a Minchah Min HaSairim. There ain't no such animal, or more specifically, no such Minchah. So, the Halachah is, it's not nothing, but rather Yavim Minachitem. He does have to bring a Korban Minchah, but he has to bring it from Chitim. It seems that we listen to the first thing he says that he's going to bring a Minchah, but we just disregard the Sairim part, and therefore he has to bring it from Chitim. Kemach, let's say he's going to bring from Kemach, which is just regular flour, which is no good. So, the Halachah is Yavim Sailis, bring the Minchah from the kneaded Sailis. Belo Shemen U'Velo Lavinah, also Yavim Shemen U'Velo Lavinah. He has to bring it properly. Chatzi Isarin, which is not a thing, Yavim Isarin Shalem. Isarin U'Mechatza, if he says, "I'm going to bring an Isarin and a half." So, since a Minchah is only brought in multiples of full Israinis, the Halachah is Yavim Shnayim, he's got to bring two. Rebbe Shimon Patur, but that's just the Tanna Kamma. Rebbe Shimon is Patur because Shelo Hisnadeiv K'Derech HaMisnadvin. He didn't do it right. So, if you don't do it right, we just disregard what he says, and therefore he is Patur from bringing anything. So, the Gemara Amay, what's the Pshat in the Tanna Kamma that says you're Machuv to bring the Neder, and we kind of correct it. Correcting Gemara, Neder Pisgei Yimayu. L'Chare, we should look at this Neder with the Pisgei Yimayu, which is essentially a Chazarah. So, it sounds like the Gemara is asking, the guy is a Chazar Tech K'Dei Dibur. Why don't we just get rid of it? Now, this Kasha that the Gemara asks is significant for Shitas HaRambam, because we know there are several things that the Gemara lists that we don't say the clause Tech K'Dei Dibur, Machariv, Megadef, Kidushin, but the Rambam himself in Maaseh Korbanos Tes Vav Alef also lists Hegdish, that there is no Chazarah Tech K'Dei Dibur Hegdish, which could be explained like the Ran, that people don't joke around with things like Hegdish. But, the issue is, L'Chare, over here we're talking about Hegdish, and the Gemara does seem to entertain the Kasha of being Chazer Tech K'Dei Dibur. Interestingly, the Radbaz, when it comes to explain the Rambam, he's saying it's Al Ami Russell L'Gavei K'Misiras L'Hedyot, implying that there's a Kinyan here, and that's why you can't be Chazer. Although we do say Tech K'Dei Dibur by Kinyanim, it could be that Ami Russell L'Gavei K'Misiras L'Hedyot is not like a typical Kinyan where you're giving it to Hashem, but it could be if the Muker of Ami Russell L'Gavei L'Hedyot a shamem shamem nothing of the Adam and all we're doing is just going back to the truth which is the Hashem owns the whole world could be that there's no back seats over there and that's why you might not be able to say I'm just that Rambam would be for this discussion. Our Gemara wants to know why according to the Tanna Kamma won't we say neder eimai. So it's going to be we had this Gemara once before if you remember. The Tanna Kamma of our Mishnah is going like she says the amrei twice lashon rishon. What's the first thing he said? I want to bring a korban mincha. Then he went ahead and he said the wrong thing but that twice lashon rishon will say that the mincha should have to be brought. We'll disregard the second part. D'itnan as we learned in the Mishnah in Nazir harenni nazir min ha gregaris min ha d'veila which is obviously wrong cuz a nazir is only from wine and grapes. B'Shammai nazir because of twice lashon rishon. U'Beis Hillel in a nazir is garnished because there's no such animal. You don't have a nazirus from d'veila and gregaris. So that's all Hizkiah's answer. Now Amora'im Beis Hillel you don't have to say it in our Mishnah like B'Shammai. You can say our Mishnah is even Beis Hillel. So why is it going to work? Because ilu hayisi daish lo hayisi noider kach lo hayisi noider kach al kach. We're basically reading into what he's saying that had he understood that you can't make l'mashal a mincha from sa'irim so then he would not have done this. So therefore we're reinterpreting what the guy meant and says of course he would want to do the right thing and therefore it's not a word of twice lashon rishon but that we're actually giving him a perush Rashi to say that he wants to bring the mincha from chittin. Amar Hizkiah this halacha that this incorrect lashon of your korban mincha is going to be chal ilu amar mincha from sa'irim but amar mincha d'ashim let's say the guy says I want to bring a korban mincha but not from sa'irim which is at least in the world of korbanos u'minachos. But he says he wants to bring it from adashim from lentils. There's no shiyachus to adashim. So in that case lay. Then there's no chiyuv at all. Now that's Hizkiah. Remember Hizkiah was the one who said twice lashon rishon. So frechti Gemara mikti. It seems like a steering Hizkiah. Hizkiah amar lishmaysei k'Beis Shammai. U'Beis Shammai mishum twice lashon rishon so mali min ha sa'irim mali min ha adashim. What difference should it make? If you're always going to hop on the first thing the guy says, I don't care whether the second expression was Bar Chitin or Siren. So you're right, in the Chanam Chader Bay. Chizkiya Taco was Chazer from the whole twice Lashon Rishon thing. And in my time of Chader Bay, and why Taco was he Chazer? Because of a Rabba Maseches Chish say. The Mishna itself was a little bit Shver. My ear didn't tell me from the Siren. Lashon Rishon Adashim say a bigger Chiddish. Say even if he said no Shichas the Chadoshim, that would also work because it says Lashon Rishon. Elash Mami Mishna the Tahu must be because he made a mistake. And therefore, similar to what Rebbe Yechiel said, because he thought you could bring such a Carbon. So Ba'Siren Tai, he'll make a mistake about barley, which is at least in the world of Carbon Menachos. But Ba'Adashim Tai, he's not going to make a mistake. Everybody knows you don't bring Menachos out of Adashim. That's why Chizkiya would say in his second Memra that we brought, that if a guy says he's going to bring a Mencha from Adashim, it was good tongue Gornisht. Rebbe Yechiel Amar, "Afilu min Adashim." So Rebbe Yechiel that even if the guy says I'm going to bring it from Adashim, it would still be Chayev to bring the Mencha from Chitin. Now, look how we're going to steer in Rebbe Yechiel. Michti, Rebbe Yechiel Kaman Amar Lashmaite Kabei Silo. Kabei Silo Mishum the Tahu. Because we think he makes a mistake. But Ba'Siren Tai, people will make a mistake about Siren. But Adashim Lo Tai, they're not going to make a mistake about the Adashim. So why would Rebbe Yechiel say the Tana Kama who say that such an Eder would even work from Adashim? Which the Gemara says Ledvar of the Chizkiya Kamalei. When Rebbe Yechiel said in the second Memra that it will be Kosher even when it's from Adashim, he's not saying that's his Shita, but he's saying that according to you Chizkiya, but my time of Hadarta Bach, why were you Chazer from saying the Tana Kama goes like Ba'Shama? Mishum the Leik Tanim min Adashim. Well, Dima Lemai Boi Kamar, maybe there was a Lemai Boi. Lemai Boi min Adashim di Eka Lememar Mehadu the Hadar Bay. Everybody knows you don't have Adashim make a Menachas. And therefore, Utfeis Lashon Rishon. Ela Filu min Siren Nami di Eka Lememar Mita Hu the Kotai. But even when he says from Siren, that a person could have made a legitimate mistake because Siren is at least in the world of Menachas, Afilu Hachi, Tfeis Rishon. Still the Tana tells us the rule of twice Lashon Rishon that he should bring a Menchas Chitin. That's the Chiddish of the Tana that we should always do the twice Lashon Rishon. But that was Rebbe Yechiel talking in Shitas Chizkiya. Turning over to Maseches Eiri. Lo Yishanu. This that we say that if you say the wrong Mencha, it's going to still work as a mincha? Ela de omer mincha, you had to say mincha. Aval omer mincha loy, and the way Rashi understands, at least in one of his shittos, if he would say minchas seorim, then you're not much of to bring anything at all, because then it's a mincha of this. It's too specific. Yochanan ben Nachman omer lo Rashi metza, and Eis Rav Alul Rav Nachman on that, that our mishna says kemach, if you bring it from regular flour, the halacha in the mishna is yavi seoles. Lav de loy omer mincha, can't we assume that he didn't say the word mincha, and still the mishna says that he should bring a mincha of seoles? Because Rashi says, lamaisa there is an ein od mighty divar lav atelus, we should assume he meant to say mincha, and therefore if he really does mean to be michayev himself a mincha, he probably said minchas seorim, and not the regular word mincha, and still the mishna says he has to bring a mincha of seoles. Which Rav Nachman says, loy de omer mincha, he takah did say mincha. Ay, the mishna says belishon of lavaina, the halacha is yavi shemen lavaina, my lav de loy omer mincha, and yet still the mishna says he's michayev to bring a mincha with the shemen lavaina. Again, loy de omer mincha, he takah did say mincha. Omer be chatzi seorim yavi seorim shalem, my lav de loy omer mincha, and yet still he has to bring a complete seorim for his mincha. Loy de omer mincha, see hachi, it's the Eeris right, that all these cases the guy said he's going to bring a mincha eima seifa. Seorim u mechtza yavi shnayim, if he says he's going to bring one and a half, he has to now bring two. But if you want to read the mishna, they're only saying the last part of what he said, but really the mishna means to say that he said a mincha also. Kiman de omer mincha, ichayev loy be seorim, that means that he's immediately ichayev to bring a regular seorim. So key omer chatzi seorim, we should just be able to disregard it. Lav klum omer, so why does the mishna say he has to bring two seorims? Just lop off that last chatzi seorim. So the Gemara seems to be maskin, but this is a chiddush. Loy tzricha de omer hareini mincha chatzi seorim ve seorim, we're talking about a case where he says he's going to bring a chatzi seorim and an seorim, switch the order. Because de kiman de omer mincha, as soon as he said mincha, which is how we're understanding this, ichayev loy be seorim. So key omer chatzi seorim, it's loy klum omer, it's as if it's worthless, we can disregard it. But now key hoder omer seorim, now at the end he's bookending this by saying seorim at the end, my seorim achreina, so he's got to bring two seorims. So it's seorim chatzi seorim and then seorim. But he hachi if you're telling me if you're telling me he is understood mean you're always saying you're going to bring a minute first even though that wasn't repeated in the mission but that's how we're understanding the mission then what do you do at the end of the mission of Shimon Peter shall I not do it this what's he doing wrong that he's not doing it this it's a kind of going like he holds twice the mission so when the night is says he's going to bring a minute that should be him could I have a minute I'm a rover this guy cuz he doesn't see the off big part of Adam not this it's not twice the mission but we're also going to pay close attention to what he said at the end which has to be taken into account just like the first part okay so the mission is not a minute shall we start a person can actually give a minute over up to 60 is all right it's a lot of flour or maybe you can put it all into one cali and hurry up she should be let's say a guy says I'm going to bring 61 is all right then you got to split it up maybe she should have a you put 60 in one cali a big cali the cali and the single is all right meaning is all right number 61 has to be in its own unique cali she can maybe be up to she should have a hug she is the mission because we find on the first day of which is probably the biggest carbon day in the world for the that first day of if it falls out on she should have a where it works out you're going to have 61 dial to it's good for the that he should be one less than the so since the has that massive amount of 61 the can't compete on my Shimon that's the hello some of those that you're bringing on are brought for the and the different they don't understand that so the reason why you can't bring it all together one big cali is cuz you can't mix and match these things LA you know what the reason is it's not because of that it's a different LA the reason why you can't put more than 60 into a cali to mix it is a very practical one because only up to 60 it properly mixes with the oil on my way there I bought it she should have a she should have a come on if you can mix the oil with 60 you could also mix it with 61 I'm going to have call me to came every one of them are like that for example who who has a good of any of tovel behind. That's how measurements work. You got a kazayis, you got a bar boy himself for mikvah, you got shish isar in the clay achad. That's how it works. 61 will tuck it up mix with the oil. So, that's why if you're menade of 61, you have to put into two kalim of 60 plus one. So, I think a mara shael shael lamaila mar Yuda bar Illai. They asked the question of Yuda bar Illai min lamar Illai shishin be achad. The halacha is you're maybe shishin be achad, the achad be achad. So, posuk of Yuda bar Illai rasha metadrim hamakem yamar. Yuda bar Illai who was the rasha metadrim, shichim atzinu tzibur mevian beyom to fishin shachag shichali as be shabbos. On that unique situation of that busy first day of sukkos that falls on shabbos that you need shishin be achad. So, dial achad shiyif min hatzibur achad. Makes sense that the achad shouldn't compete and it should be one less than the tzibur. So, amru Rebbi Shimon, "The halacha parva elim be elu kvasim. They're different kinds of korbanos. That's the reason you can't mix them." And elu belilosim of the some of these should be a thicker belila, elu belilosim rakah, and some should be thinner. Elu belilosim shacharis, some of the menachos should be brought in the morning, belilosim ben arbaim, some are brought in the afternoon. Specifically the tamid shacharis and the tamid ben arbaim. They're brought in the morning and the afternoon. The ain nevlolim is al zeh and therefore you can't mix the 61 all together on the first day of sukkos that falls on shabbos because of that reason. So, amru lei, he meaning Rebbi Yehuda now it's said back to Rebbi Shimon, "Amar ato, so what do you think the reason why you have a cutoff point at 60 sarin?" Amar lehem Rebbi Shimon, "Hareihu omer mincha belula beshemen vechareva. Any mincha that's mixed with oil or that's dry so far amra tire the tire already said have I mincha shichal hi bolel. Bring a mincha that you could mix. And since you can't mix 61 together, you can't bring it in the same kali." Amar lei Rebbi Yehuda back to Rebbi Shimon, "Beshishin nevlolin or beshishin be achad ain nevlolin?" Amar lei, "Yeah, call me chachamim kenu. That's the way it works by shiurim." And now he explains this using mishalim. Bar boy himself who toivel, bar boy himself has a cord of ain o yochli tovel. Or kibaim tamim tamim sachlin, kibaim chaser shumshum. If the ba'ez size is chaser shumshum like one sesame seed ain o tamim tamim sachlin, which is a machlokes that that it can't become tame or it can't make other things tame and Rashi says this to the olive and in other locations. Also this is how you work practically let's say they don't mix meaning in the 61 you're not going to have the shaman mixing with the Silas but what's not the mission says in kosher it's not my cave so who cares that it doesn't mix what's the whole premise here from shaman why shouldn't I be able to put them in the same Kaylee and here we have the shots line that we took us all the way to cook in Manassas to get to it over call Roy and it has to be Roy for the mixing but if you can't actually mix it properly then be by the only reason why it's not my cave is because it's shy because it's Roy and this is the actual locus classicus of this member from but if it's because it won't properly mix then it is my cave and of course this principle stand throughout shots one famous one is going to be about whether or not a person has to open their mouth in the mikvah to get the tahara because since a person could open their mouth therefore you don't have to open your mouth it's Roy dices in need and some wants to know maybe a person should look at opening their mouth I remember telling my kids on a mission one time when they were young boys okay boys don't forget you got to gargle get the mikvah water all throughout the body really Totti no no don't do that but anyway it's actually a legitimate question dices ask why shouldn't one open their mouth to get the most to get the tahara in the mikvah and dices says he is side you can take a look at the dices on the first wide line over there in this big dices and some of days where dices says you only say the rule of and be the avid by mitzvahs but by a matter like going into the mikvah you don't have a world of be the avid either it works or it doesn't work so now that we have a lot of and be the it works without opening your mouth so don't open your mouth in the mikvah and with that we're going to call it and pick it up from here for shabbos is that next time