Chullin Daf 79

All right, Daf, I in Tes Shabbos's Daf, as we're picking it up at the top of I in Tes Amud Aleph on the third line. Omar Rav Huna bar Chiya, Omar Shmuel. Hilchos Issur v'Heter K'chananya. We pasken like Chananya that there is going to be an issur of Issur v'Heter not only by a mother and its offspring, but the issur of Issur v'Heter is also for the father. And the understanding is rooted in the fact that we are choshesh l'zera ha'av. Obviously, there's no question that biologically the offspring will also come from the father. But halachically, do we view it only that they come from their mother, but also additionally their father? So, Omar Shmuel atamei. Shmuel who says that we pasken like Chananya is going basser his own de'ah didan because we learned in the Mishna in the eighth perek of Kilayim, Rebbi Yehudah omer, "Hanelde min assus." A mule, which comes from the union of a horse and a donkey, where you can of course have two different versions of who was the mother and who was the father. So, Rebbi Yehudah, if a mule is born from a female horse, af al pishcha avien chamar, even though the father's a donkey, mutar n'zavezei. You have no issur of Kilayim of breeding a male and a female mule as long as they are identical, meaning the horse is the mother and the donkey's the father or vice versa, but as long as they are the same. That's Rebbi Yehudah's shittah. Aval hanelde min achamar im hanelde min assus, but let's say we're going to swap the specie of the mother or father with either one of the two, so then it's assur. Now you have an issur of Kilayim of putting these animals together. Vi'omer Rebbi Yehudah omer Shmuel, "Zu divrei Rebbi Yehudah d'omer ein chosheshin l'zera ha'av." We're not going to reckon with the father and therefore we're only defining it based on where the mother comes from and that's why you're going to miss your Kilayim. Aval chachamim omerim, "Kol minei pradais achas hein." The union of the horse and the donkey yield a mule irrespective of who the mother is and who the father is. And therefore there's no issur Kilayim. So, man chachamim and who is Shmuel talking about when he says chachamim? Chananya who d'omer chosheshin l'zera ha'av. And therefore v'hai barsusya v'achamar l'gabei d'hilchos Kilayim of crossbreeding these different animals, this mule that we're talking about, which is a product of a female sus and a male khamar is considered the barsusya of a khamra and the khamar khamra of a susya. And the other mule that is also being mated with is also the product of a donkey and a horse. So, kul hu khad amina ninn hu. They're all the same kind of classification of black and white cookie or whatever moshel you want to give it. They are a metzius of a combination of something. So, we see the halakha is like Khannanya. So, that's why he says the halakha is like Khannanya, that's his only shittase. And that's why Shmuel referred to Khannanya as the Khakhamim to show that he holds that that shitta is like the Rebbe and then we pasken like that way. Now, yiboy lu mifshat shitta le Rebbe Yehuda de Khai shil zero av. This Rebbe Yehuda is not Khai shil zero av. Is that clear to him? It's mifshat shitta or a delma sfuki masafkale? Or is Rebbe Yehuda just masupik? And this Rebbe Yehuda assered the kilayim of one mule whose mother's a horse and father's a donkey with another mule with a mother's a donkey and the father's a horse. Is that because it's for sure not considered the same men or was he just being Khai shish? And the Rabbanan says it's even deeper because the Gemara on yesterday's daf, that darshan the pasuk of Asei viyas benai is not talking about zekharim. So, you can learn it two ways. Either you could say we're never Khai shish le zero av and that's gufu what the Torah is telling us. Or you could say from the very fact that the Torah had to be memayet zekharim from Asei viyas benai, that's mashma that generally speaking we are Khai shish le zero av. So, in other words, do we look at this as the exception to the rule or are we making this the makor for kol ha Torah kullo? So, we don't know what shitta is Rebbe Yehuda is. Is it a psak vadai or a psak mesufak? Le mai nafka mina? Le mishri pre imahaim. It's going to make a big nafka mina if let's say this mule was born from a female horse. Can this mule now be mated with another female horse according to Rebbe Yehuda because that's its men. That's the pre imahaim. Because e amrit mifshat shitta le then pre imahaim shari because it's that same men. Ve e amrit sfuki masafkale, pre imahaim moser. But if you're only being Khai shish, then you have to take both of them into account and it's still be asser. So, mai what's going to be shitta is Rebbe Yehuda? So, Tos Mal is bringing a raya from the mishna that we just had quoted because Rebbe Yehuda amar kol na'al af al pisha viyan khamar, mutarin zeh bazeh. Na ekhidami, what's Rebbe Yehuda's talking about both of these animals the father is also a hammer so then why would I have to say to mother obviously it's the exact same men hello love to avoid the high suits of a word of a hammer must be there be who does not talking about a case where the father of one of the suits the father of one of the hammer but rather be who is coming to me matter being machine this mule with a mom is pure horse and you have to matter even though he said even though the father is a hammer he meant even though the father of one of them is a hammer it's a little bit difficult in the lotion but say you have to learn the hammer meter and what did he say to arms and arms and arms so I'm a mission the only way he's going to matter is if it's positive to him and when I do with the mercy because lightly I don't know what I would like to the high hammer we're talking about the same kind of mule mating with another mule and maybe we talk and we are in this that you had a cash that why do I need to say it's going to be more I'll tell you because my way of a timer I'll see that the suits the suits the suits I would say that each side is being a mission with the other side you're still mixing and matching parts of suits with hammer and therefore still going to be more and the mission do have an important cash from this camera because it sounds like we're not going to be worried of the suits to mission that is exactly what we say but the classic suits give a mission because the suits so what would be the difference between kill I am and a potential marriage issue and this is between kill I am and we have to know what this is actually means and could be that what this is referring to is what the run actually speaks out you can find it in the same he makes a between the suits and suits by the which is an issue in the suits that is represented more in a mission and another that kill I am is this way from birth so that's why somehow we're not going to say that suits going to be with the as opposed to the mission that doesn't start off that way from birth. So these are a little hard, but that's really where the is in this understanding how to classify the versus other in There's an interesting application in a from 1963. You can find that in about a on one of these kinds of fruits that maybe was also to make because it was function of but you're allowed to eat it. It's like a nectarine I think an example of that kind of fruit. the issue? The issue is a issue. Let's say I eat the parent fruits. So the two fruits that yielded the new mixed fruit. If I have each one of them already and now I want to have the fruit. Do I make a new or not? So ultimately says you don't make a on it, but he also says interesting that you're not going to celebrate something that happened as a result of an which is to make these things. So even though you're allowed to eat them, you wouldn't make a It's not in the spirit of the law. But brings our as a of how do you view when there's a of the parent product in the offspring product. In how much you have to deal with it? Okay, now they're going to try again. The says you have a this female mule and it's in heat. It's ready to be mated. You can't take a purebred horse or donkey. Only another one of its own kind meaning a male mule. Now if you're telling me that according to we don't have to worry about So then what do you worry about? Then whatever the mother species was of this mule is what you could mate this mule with because it's that we're not which the says because the we just don't know what the mother species was. But the says you can only mate this this female mule with its own kind meaning that kind of male mule. But if you don't know what the mother kind was, how could you mate her with another male mule? Maybe the mother of the male mule is from a different species than the mother. Which the says So I'm already is what it meant to say. Min sus v'lo min hamar. You can't mate her with anybody. The fish and you didn't even know cuz we don't know what kind she is. Well frankly tomorrow why can't I figure it out? The lib dike the simanim. Let's actually look at the simanim. The amora by it we can figure out who the mother is because of a collie if the voice is deep like a donkey which brays then it's bar chamra. Then this offspring is from a female donkey that was the mother. Tsanif collie but if it's shrill like a horse and it neighs instead of brays then it's bar susya and the mother was a horse. The amora of papa rabba would never suit you ganufte. If it's got big ears and a short tail then it's bar chamra. Then the mother was a donkey. Zutra udne v'rabba ganufte. If the ears are small and the tail is long bar susya. Then the mother was a horse. So we should be able to figure out who the mother is just from the simanim. This reminds me of the book I used to read my kids. Are you my mother by P.D. Eastman. But anyway just by looking at this animal you can't which the gamora says I ask you none. We're talking about a mule here that can't speak so we can't hear how it sounds and it has no limbs. So it's a very sad mule and therefore there's no way the simanim will be useful. Now my hobby low what's the bottom line of she dis by you there? To shama the amora of una by you there shua. Hakama the pre in aim show us sir. You're not allowed to take this crossbreed animal and mate it with the same specie of its mother. So from the fact that we have such a memory we can that is stuck in he doesn't say that we're not and then amora by abba la shamae. Amora abba said to his shamae I would like to nice her but respect. If you're going to put two of these mules together to my wagon I am the dam in the body. You got to check them out from their simanim to indicate whether or not they look alike violently and then you can put them on the wagon for me. We're not talking about the kind of that's also to mate. We're talking about the issue of having two animals work with each other. So amora abba you're going to put two mules together you got to make sure that they have the right kinds of simanim to indicate that they have the same mothers. So the amora alma can survive in the zero of vice dice. We're not worried about zero of otherwise it would be ossur. And also turning over to me base, the simanim deoraisa, because you're using simanim to pasken a din deoraisa whether or not you're allowed to put these two animals together. Now, the big kasha that the rishonim were bothered with is that simanim deoraisa is a sugya ruchan bava metzia, right? From eilu metzius. And Rashi even asks the kasha that over there is an eiboy de leiyishuta, so how can our gemara here just say simanim deoraisa? And Rashi makes the cheilek between issura and memuna. The Ramban asks the kasha and says the cheilek is going to be whether or not there's a reiyasa, because it could be by the case of eilu metzius the guy's assuming be aruba, he's just guessing, but it's not really a reiya that he's the bylim on this lost object. And the achronim bring an interesting thing from the Naftali ben Yehuda that says the cheilek is going to be whether or not you're a muchzak in this information. And by a metzia, you're being motzi from a muchzak, and that's why simanim may not be deoraisa in the case of being motzi from a muchzak. You can find this Naftali ben Yehuda in Even HaEzer kama siman lamed aleph. The big chiddush of that Naftali ben Yehuda is that you're calling the one who's being shomer the aveida, the muchzak on the maman. So, that's another interesting issue to look into. Tanna Rabbanan, "Assur be'as benai noheg be'kilayim u've koi." So, the issur of assur be'as benai is going to be negaya for a kilayim. Let's say you put together a rachel and a tiyash, like a sheep and a goat. And you're also going to have assur be'as benai if you shacht a koi and then its own offspring on the same day. By the way, I'm pronouncing it koi even though when I was in 12th grade Rabbi Tendler zechrono livracha pronounced it kvi. Rabbi Gross in today's paper oisa daf um gets further into the idea of how to pronounce that word. Rav Chaim Kanievsky apparently quoted from his father the Steipler that it's pronounced koi. He had other makayars that's called koi. But then he brought other sources that it might be pronounced kvi. And then he brought another source that the word kvi may not even be pronounced kvi, it might be kevi as a contraction of the word keves and savi. You put them together, you get kevi. And he made the point how the whole idea of the koi is that we don't know what the animal is exactly, and we also don't even know how to pronounce the word. Al kol panim zak this price of there is an issur of assur be'as benai both by kilayim and by a koi. Rabbi Eliezer omer, "Kilayim maman eizo min a rachel assur be'as benai noheg by." However, a koi ein assur be'as benai noheg boy? Which is a higher behema there is no I say yes been a is a natural product of a natural product and offspring of a which is a goat and it's which is a deer. And the way understands this is trying to say don't tell me it's a very at my. We're going to talk about that more on tomorrow's but saying it's more of a kill I am of these two men. What case is talking about? You're saying that the father is the goat the behema and the mother is the when she gave birth because and someone the mother Bambi deer and her offspring the on the same day. Well I call my everybody's asking that if the mother was a deer and the offspring is partially the the goat that you're certainly going to be putter because the says the light to be a night. I say yes been a is only by behemas and not by highest. There is no to kill a and it's offspring on the same day. So we must be talking about all the Yoda. The father is the the mother is a behema is [clears throat] the and therefore you gave birth to this guy. The now if you the goat and it's offspring the on the same day there's also going to be problematic because the armor of I call my the everybody's asking if the mother is a and her offspring has a of being a then you're going to be because now you have the mother who's a and it's child so that's certainly going to be so what saying that the that the time is about is the product of a goat and a deer. He said there is no such about that combination. I am talking about a where the father was a goat the mother was the deer. The old a bath. So now they created a bath a daughter which is a a old a bath and now the was this male So it's a koi Ben koi. The kashrus law of a bros. So now you're shechting that koi and her offspring. So it's two kois that are being killed on the same day. For a bonus the say a few of mix the say and the kashrus is that even though it's only partially in there, that's going to still be ossur. But who holds that there's no problem because the say a few of mix the say practically lift like the kashrus. Why don't we just talk about that? The plukta the area a bonus. Why are we talking about a koi at all? Just give us the issue of whether or not I say yes Benai is going to be negaya to the kashrus of which says is a kashrus cuz pligi by he if you're only going to tell me about I say yes Benai is the kashrus of have I mean a bonus my do. That would be negaya even for a female koi and her offspring even though a bonus will be masking that you're not going to have an ossur because the say a few of mix the say I mean on. So comes the bonus and tells us the kashrus that I say yes Benai is going to apply to a koi and that say is even a look of the say a few of mix us. I had it not in the mission that we're going to learn I think on Tuesday's daf coming up that koi ain't shechting I say beyond on Yom Tov of course you can shecht an animal. But you shouldn't shecht a koi. Why? Because we don't know if the koi is a higher behema and therefore we're not sure whether or not you even kiss you a damn which is only negaya to a higher and not a behema. If you shecht and if you did the wrong thing and you shecht it in the damay. You're not allowed to go ahead and now do the kissui because of the muktza and it's again bad. So I ask in what kind of koi are we talking about? The other yalda that the mother was the deer. So a bonus a bonus lishkeit the kashrus. What do you like a bonus or a bonus of that previous brisa still do the shechita and do the kissui because it's a few of mix us. You got the part that you got to cover that you're a bonus of a bonus of a bonus of a bonus we must be talking about this koi was the product of a deer and a goat but the goat was the mother. So the only of the koi to have kissui would be on the paternal side on the father's side. So a bonus on the bonus side who say that we are a bonus of a bonus of the kashrus. And a bonus but if you hold like a bonus then lishkeit the kashrus. Lishkeit you have to fact that you are not even you're not and therefore don't have to have any requirement of talking about where the mother was the baby the goat and we can zero so therefore the mission says look at the killer don't check and if you do check don't do the case but the tomorrow or from the fact that you're saying that we're whether not zero so if I say that I really appreciate it must be that there is no suffix at all and we're definitely not but there is I have a lot of time as well as I am a caveman and gave it to me in the gate famous trivia I am kill him a bomb in the zoo in a higher than my so the partner in the so the nobility is agreeing about a but I hope that so by my asking what we're talking about either a ball of a Yoda that the mother was a deer and therefore you're saying that the guy is going to have the of club a its father will be as the partner because said I feel I am not a partner who holds that the guy is going to be in the cave and he said that I feel but we're talking about being a moment and since it's only a you got to have a riot because it's approved to me that he has a in these and he won't be able to do that but I call the other half of the you don't have to give to the because the guy is half deer which is not a partner but either what about the other half that you do give to the guy in lame a lay I see right in the zero even after you have to give which half would it be you still have to bring a riot for the zero before you could take it so the prices can't be talking about a guy where the mother was a deer elements via ball we must be talking about the mother was a goat so my guy but okay you got to give half of the to a guy in but who holds that the zero is a partner you should be more than a guy what is the kind of that the is talking about? And for the elements we are talking about where the mother of this was the goat. He's also So you tell me he's also the of the So what kind of is there? They're both Moving over to everything they are arguing about whether or not the says that is a you have to worry about. They're all I feel really and this could have really been what the started off with but they didn't want to say but now that we're back into a corner we're going to say that is the between these we're going to stop here and pick it up with for Sunday.