Chullin Daf 55

All right, afternoon. Hey, Wednesday's daf. Let's pick it up with a new sugiyah, nine lines from the bottom of Nun Dollar Amud Beis, Al Mar Rav Nachman. This that we said that the konah can be missing up to a size of an issur and still be kosher, that when Chazal says kisela, that's ki issur maybe kisela. And likewise, ki issur is ki issur mi kisela, that the exact shiur is like as if it's more than that shiur. So, if it's going to be treif when it's more than that shiur, it's also treif when it's exactly that shiur of missing konah. That's shiur to Rav Nachman. Alma, vice twice from Rav Nachman's memory, k'savar Rav Nachman ad v'lo ad b'chlall, that when we give a shiur, it's only up to that shiur, but when you hit that shiur, that's as if it's more than that shiur. And now the Gemara is going to ask a bunch of different kashas from different sugiyos in Taharos to prove or disprove this idea. Eis vei Rav Ola Rav Nachman. Chevel, a rope, hayotzein min hamitah, that extends outside the bed, because old-fashioned beds were made with taut pulled ropes that they put their bedding on. Ad chamishah t'fachim tahor. The Mishnah in the 19th perek of Keilim says that until five t'fachim, which would be not enough to make a bed, it'll be tahor because it's not ro'i for anything. A rope is not going to be mekabel tumah, unless it's shayach to something. It's not shayach to make the bed unless it's five t'fachim. Now, my love, chamishah kil mai'lah, if you have exactly five t'fachim, it's like up to the five t'fachim, and therefore it won't become tamei, it'll be tahor, which the Gemara is docheh, lo chamishah kil mai'lah, if you have exactly five t'fachim, that's as if you have more than five t'fachim. And now the Gemara is going to try And now the Gemara is going to try a series of similar style kashas in Taharos from Tashma mi chamishah v'ad asarah tamei, from five to 10 t'fachim, it's shayach to become tamei because that's the shiur for how you make a bed. So, my love, asarah kil mai'lah, and therefore it should become tamei, and you see that ad is ad v'ad b'chlall, k'neged Rav Nachman. And from the Gemara, lo asarah kil mai'lah, and then achana ami, it's not any raya k'neged Rav Nachman. Tashma, we'll bring a raya from the Mishnah in the second perek of Keilim. The Mishnah says hadakin sh'b'kli cheres, small kli cheres like a keilim, hein, the original keilim, or the kark'oseihem, or the bottoms of the dafneihem, or the sides of these broken keilim, can still hold a mashkeh when they are yoshvin sh'lo b'sumchin, when they're sitting on a flat surface without any other support of that Kaylee moving over to my dollop the issue how much does it have to hold it still be able to be my camera if there's a matter of oil it can hold to do the seeker on a little baby and then I love will be true up until it can hold a look so my love look at my so the mission seems to be saying which is connected with the saying everything look at me and it look at will be like more than a look okay we'll bring a riot from here me look at that so is that piece of came from a Kaylee that originally before it broke was able to hold from a look up until a saw which is 24 looking then those pieces of the will still be able to be my camera if they can hold a so my love saw meaning like one that was originally holding less than the saw and therefore the pieces of this have to only require the amount to be able to hold a so you see the mission is saying that I'd means I'd connected with everything so kill him out there so I'll try again me about society if these pieces from the came from a Kaylee that originally was able to hold much more then those pieces of that Kaylee my camera to me if they can hold so my love society kill him out there and then society kill him out there but tell me about that says look at so kill him out there and society kill him out there so this price is saying that up to always is connected with me which the is not cuz you're missing an important piece depends what the context is over there by the mission of the so if we mask him it's because that's what ends up being the it's my camera to me to me call him who's the Christian except for the need of a Gris that if you have exactly a Gris we're going to want to be more a bit but otherwise we're always going to and they can tell me all of the prices that mission about the that extends from the bed kill him out there a society kill him out So, from the fact that we speak out the that the hamisha exactly is la maila and the asara is kilo mata, we're In other words, we're saying whichever one is going to end up being the khumra. Then the mishna said nitla atla, if the spleen is removed, the animal is still kosher. It's different than if there's a hole. Amar Rav Avira bishmeih d'Rava, la shanu ela nitla. The mishna is only talking about where the animal is going to stay kosher if the entire spleen was removed in ganzin. Aval nikav, but it's mashma, if there's a hole in the spleen, it'll be a treifa. Masiv Rebbi Yosi bar Ovin from the mishna coming up the itamer of Yosi bar Zvida, khay teig may ubash b'may ala. Let's say someone goes inside the mother animal and cuts the uber such that it disconnects a piece of the uber from the beheima. Mutar b'akhila, the shchita on the mother will will still work on the fetus on the inside even though it's no longer connected. Min atla umin akla'is, but let's say you go into the animal and you detach the tla and the kla'is, then it would be asur b'akhila. Now, that's not our sugia over here about ubere ra'ima, but the mishna is saying clearly that it's dafka going to be asur b'akhila if you detach the tla and the kla'is. It sounds like kol beheima gufa sharia, only those things are going to be a problem of asur b'akhila, but the actual animal itself does not become a treifa by disconnecting the tla and the kla'is. So, khalas k'neged Rava that's saying that a hole in the tla and the kla'is would make it into a treifa. And for the Gemara, now who had that feel beheima n'meisra? The Gemara says the mishna would also be maskim that in a khinami, that spleen that you cut off will be aver min akhai, and the whole animal will also become asur al treifa because now it has a nekef. But I didn't turn around and say mutar b'akhila to n'meisra asur b'akhila, but so therefore you can't be medayek. Or Rebbi Beisai might tell you that the whole actual animal is mutar to eat, but still not a kasha on Rava because nikav l'khud v'nekhtakh l'khud. Making a hole is one halakha and cutting it is another halakha. But in a khinami, puncturing the spleen is going to make the animal a treifa, whereas cutting the spleen off will not. And the rishonim say different reasons because perhaps a nekef in the spleen is going to cause more pain to the animal. Akaparnu, there might be such a khilik. Then the mishna said nitlu hakla'is, if the kidneys were just removed from the animal in ganzin, the animal is kosher. Amar Rav Ashi bar Papa bishmeih d'Rava, loxim b'kulia akhas, treifa. If an animal becomes diseased in one of the kidneys, the animal becomes a treif. Amri bar Marova in Eretz Yisrael they said this halacha of Rav that as long as this sickness turning over down base reaches the makom choritz to the place of the makom choritz, some sort of furrow in the kidney where the different parts of the body are attached with these tubes. Tell me where it is. It's the white part that lies under the animal's loins that according to the safer might mean the uterus and the blood vessels that run over there and into that cavity. Amar shultinu treif de Marova. I asked all of the experts in shchita of treif in Eretz Yisrael and they said to me that this diseased kidney will make the animal to a treif. The halacha is not like the halacha is not like that a spleen was hot a neck will make it into a treif, but the halacha is won't make it into a treif. It's interesting that wanted to ask the treif experts of Eretz Yisrael what's the significance of that. Rabbi Gross spoke out in Or Sameach kind of a brilliant Or Sameach in perek yud where the Or Sameach says you go back to the earlier lecture where we were talking about the different definitions of the stomach. We had the Marova that says that the kares was a very expansive area and according to the Eshkol the psul in the spleen is not really because of the spleen. It's because of what it will do to the stomach. So because of the expansiveness of the stomach wanted to ask the treif de Marova. By the time the Gemara this that we're saying that these in Eretz Yisrael said that a spleen with a neck is not going to be a treif. That's that we're not going to pasken like only if the hole in the spleen is in its thin part. But if it was in its thicker part then treif the animal going to be a treif. The and if that hole is in the thicker end and it's a dinar's thickness of spleen is still there the animal will be kosher. Amri bar Marova they said in Eretz Yisrael kosher whatever is going to make the animal to a treif the lungs is not going to be a problem for the kidneys. Shari Nekev, possible Raya, we see that a hole in the lungs is going to make the animal to a treifa. The kosher Akulia, but still it's not a problem for the kidneys. Kosher K'neiga, the kosher Raya, kosher Akulia, certainly it's the other way around. That something that is going to be machshire the lungs is certainly machshire the kidneys. Maskif Lav, Rabbi Tanchuma, the Klal Hu, is this always a rule? Arye B'al Mugla, the kosher Raya, if there is Mugla, which is like pus, some sort of infection, that is not going to make a treifus in the lungs, but still it's possible Akulia, so you see that you can't make such a rule about this from the lungs to the treifa. The Harei Mayim Zakein, the kosher Akulia and we see that if there's clear fluid, which is not a problem for both the lungs and the kidneys, and Rashi points out that this is a little bit hard to understand, what was the point of this question here? Akul Panim, Ela Amar Rav Ashi, treifus come and damus l'hadadi, you're still you're trying to compare different kinds of treifus, ein amrum treifus zeh u'zeh damus zeh. Shara Raya, as we know, chait chami kamo meiso, chait chami kamo chaisa, sometimes you can cut an animal in one area and the animal will die, sometimes another area and the animal won't die. We've mentioned this concept before and therefore you cannot be midameh one treifa to another. In this other halacha, the Harei Mayim Zakein, the kosher Akulia, lo yomar an el d'tzilei, this too we said that if there's clear liquid, it's not a problem, that's only if it's mamash clear. Aval Achirei treifa, but if it's cloudy kind of a liquid, then the animal is a treifa. V'chaitzei l'mamei, and even if it's mamash clear, lo yomar an el d'lo sorach, as long as it doesn't smell bad. Aval sorach, if it's rotted or smells bad, then treifa. Akulia she ketina, let's say you have a kidney that shriveled up as a result of some kind of a diseased kidney, badka ad kapel, if it's a small animal like a sheep or a goat, the animal is a treifa if that kidney has shrunk into the size of a pile, which is a bean. B'gasif, it's a big animal, ad kan lo avedina like a medium sized grape. Then the Mishnah said, nitla l'chi matachtain, the animal still kosher if the lower jaw was all removed. Amar Rabbi Zeira, lo yishana ela sh'chola l'chiyus al y'dei le'eita v'hamara, that the animal's going to be kosher if the lower jaw was taken out only if the animal can be kept alive by some kind of intervention by shoving food down its throat. Aval ein achol l'chiyus al y'dei le'eita v'hamara, treifa, but if it can't be kept alive even by shoving food down its throat, then it's of course a treifa. Mishnah had said "Nitla'ah eim shala" which we translate if the uterus was removed. Tanna, we learned in a braisa, "Hi eim, hi tarpachas, v'hi shalchufas." They're all the same thing. They're all the uterus of the animal. Then, the Mishnah says, "D'charusa b'dei Shamayim ksheira." If an animal has a shriveled lung as a result of b'dei Shamayim, I think when I typed the Mishnah yesterday, I said it was just natural, but Rashi already had told us that it was talking about when it was scared to death and it saw something and made its lung shrivel up. So, Tanna Rabbanan, "Eizo hi charusa?" What's an example of a charusa? "Kol she'tzomkah re'ah shala." If its lung was shriveled because it got scared. So, b'dei Shamayim is ksheira, but adam is treif. What does it mean b'dei adam? That maybe a person scared the animal. Rashi says from the sound of its voice. The Rambam in Hilchos Shchita perek ches halacha tes amazingly says if one animal sees another animal get k'shachtin, that's considered b'dei adam. Apparently, according to the Rambam, the animal will sense when its friend is being killed. "Rebbi Shimon ben Elazar omer, af b'dei kol habri'os." Any other animal will have the same halacha. Well, what does that mean? "Eibaylu, Rebbi Shimon ben Elazar omer, Reisha Kayla Kolzi." He's saying that even if it gets scared, let's say from a scary lion, it will be like b'dei Shamayim and therefore be kasher or a treif. "Af Kayla Kolzi omer, therefore be treif." So, "Tashma d'tanya" because the braisa says "Charusa b'dei Shamayim is treif." "Rebbi Shimon ben Elazar omer, af b'dei kol habri'os." So, from the braisa, clearly they were comparing kol habri'os to b'dei adam and therefore it's l'chumra and it will be a treif. "Rabba bar bar Chana hada ka ozil b'midbara." He was traveling in the desert. "Ashkacha dichri d'tzomkah re'ah didu." He found these rams who had their lungs shriveled. But, he didn't know what caused that shriveled lung. So, "Asar sh'eilu b'vei Midrasha." He brought them, I guess, and came to the beis midrash and said "What's the story here?" "Amora'ei" they said, "B'kaita aisi mishchalei chivarei." During the summertime, bring these white clay jars bowls. "U maylinhu maya karirei." Bring cold water. "U anchinun eis leisa u leiv diese shriveled lungs in there for 24 hours." "E chadran baryun b'dei Shamayim hu kasher." If the lungs I guess absorb the water, then clearly it was shriveled at b'dei Shamayim and the animal's kasher. "V'lo ilu b'treif." "D'sivsa aisi mishchalei shichumei." If it's winter, then bring dark clay water my little Maya and bring lukewarm water and see if the lungs return back to their healthy state with that kind of water. And the mission of finally says how good if the animal's missing skin remembers his kosher in the mission of the same thing trappers attorney general in the price of says how good about this animal is missing skin and he may personally look for a head of losers suffer the good good how good ship Sula on the same loser closer [snorts] by mayor the mice of his and decide the whole of the common that even this gluta will be a treifa mayor from the fact that says that it was it sounds like probably the mayor it sounds like that even the loser there was a mayor was arguing with the about this animal is missing the skin I have a the price of says I'm already been a loser and I glued the ship Sula there was no so good for a head of losers have both some of the mission of gluta ship Sula the mission of the that if an animal is skinned it's going to be treifa but if there's a skin the size of the seller it will be kosher. So what do you see saying didn't argue that it's going to be sounds like they never had a but it's never right now that it was and it sounds like he didn't originally have a matter of yet my lawyer all my mayor he didn't stick with his but if I didn't have any he originally had a matter of we had said in the by the sheriff the skin stayed on the animal that was the size of the seller it will still be kosher but where is that skin have to be on all the along the whole length of the spine how wide is that skin the human play have a seller can it be a long thin piece of skin that if you add it all together and make one big circle out of it will be a size of a seller a deal but seller cooler maybe has to be the width of the seller all the way down to the Persian of the Persian of the seller cooler but it's a much more thicker share it has to be the width of the seller all the way down rather Baruch Hana Amar, Rashei Prok'im, there needs to be a piece of skin the size of a cell on all of the main joints on all the Rashei Prok'im. Another Shita, Rabbi Eliezer ben Yaakov Mishum Rabbi Eliezer ben Yaakov Amar, Makom Tiburei, on its navel, that's where you have to have skin. Boi Rabbi Yaakov ben Rabbi Yishmael, Nitla Makom Hashidra v'chula Kayem, according to Shmuel, the skin that's covering the spine was removed but all the rest of it's okay. Or Nitla Makom Tibura v'chula Kayem. Or Nitla Rashei Prok'im v'chula Kayem Mai? In other words, do these different Shitas have to hold of each other? Let's say the skin is missing from the other places and half of them is all going to be Teku. Amar Rav Huna Amar Rav Huna Matza v'gulda, Kolha Amar Rav Huna Matza b'egluda, any skin the size of a cell is going to make the animal not a Treifa l'gabei this Halacha of Gluda or Beis HaPraseis, except for the skin in the place of the hooves, then that skin won't save the animal from being a Treifa. Rabbi Yochanan Amar, No, a Filu Arba HaPraseis Nami Matza. Boi minei Rabbi Assi mi Rabbi Yochanan, Arba HaPraseis Ma She Atzil b'Gluda? What's the Halacha about the skin by the Praseis, by these hooves, l'gabei a Gluda? Amar lei, Matza, it will stop it from being a Treifa. Amar lei Rabbi Assi back to Rabbi Yochanan, L'maala Tana Rav Beinu, but you yourself taught us in the Mishna that's coming up on Kuf Kaf Beis, Eilu Sh'eirei Sankim Saron, the following Basar is like the skin, Arba HaPraseis, so you see that that's the same Halacha, that you see that the skin by the Beis HaPraseis is considered to be Basar and not Air, and therefore it shouldn't stop the animal from being a Treifa by the case of a Gluda. Amar lei Rabbi Yochanan back to Rabbi Assi, Al Takni Teini, don't hack me a chainik from that Mishna, Sh'uvlashi Yochani Chainisa, because I was teaching it as a Das Yachid and not the Das of the Rabbin. Deitanya, because the Braisa says, Asher If someone Shechts a Korban Ola v'lahaqti K'zayis mi'Or shel Tachas Ha'Aliya, Chutz l'Makom to burn a K'zayis worth of that Or under the Aliya, which is considered Basar, Chutz [snorts] l'Makom and therefore will have a problem of Pigul, Pasul Beinei Karas, it won't have the Issur Karas of Pigul, but Chutz l'Makom and it won't have Pigul but it will have Issur Karas. So what do you see according to the Tanakama? That the skin underneath the Aliya is considered like the Basar. Eliezer ben Yehuda Ish Iblam Amar Mishum Rabbi Akiva, the same Halacha Rabbi Shimon ben Yehuda Eikus Amar Mishum Rabbi Shimon, Echan Arba HaPraseis, v'Echan Or HaReish shel Egel Arach, whether it's the skin of the head of this little baby calf or shall talk us the skin that's underneath the tail the whole saying keep all of these other kinds of skins that the listed together with where they said in that mission that moving over time all of to include also the skin near the private parts of the animal close to my puzzle close to my people everyone So you see from the price that only according to the skin and that all of these are considered like but the of our price is only talking about the underneath the is not talking about the others like for example the with the base of are the hooks that he holds his actual skin and that will be the right and we're going to stop here and pick it up with the mission for tomorrow's stuff.