Chullin Daf 46

All right, daf mem vav. This is Monday's daf, and we are picking it up five lines from the bottom of mem heh mem bet as we continue our deeper dive into the anatomy of a treifus. Odd hechan chuta shidra. How far down does that spinal cord go? Cuz we had said yesterday that if you actually cut the spinal cord, that's going to be a treifa. So, we have to define its parameters. So, ad hechan chuta shidra amrei Rav Shmuel, ad bein haproshois, until the area between the branches when it spreads out above the animal's hind legs. So, it has these like branches of a tree that go out from the spinal cord. called chuta shidra anywhere between the moach, the brain, and these places of the branches. But if it's below this area, it wouldn't be a treifa. Rav Dimi bar Yitzchak boila meizil bechuzei. He was going to leave bechuzei also lechameider Rav Yehuda. Before he left, he went to Rav Yehuda and he said, "Lichazei lemar bein haproshois Can you show me where the bein haproshois on the animal is?" Amrei lei, Rav Yehuda said to him, "Well, zeil a seilek di v'achvei loch. Go bring me a goat and I'll show you exactly on the animal where these branches define the termination of the spinal cord." I seilek di shmeini bramei. Nice big fat goat. Amrei lei, Rav Yehuda said, "Bli atzvei v'lo yodea. I I can't see. This is too fat of an animal to be able to properly see where the chuta shidra ends and where you have these bein haproshois." So, I seilek koachash. So, Rav Yehuda brought now a skinny goat. Amrei lei, Rav Yehuda, "Bli atzvei v'lo yodea. It's It's too skinny and therefore the bones are protruding too much so you can't really see these bein haproshois here either." So, Rav Yehuda now recognizing that Rav Dimi bar Yitzchak was out of time, that's how Rashi learns, so he tells him, "Amrei lei, taag marach tomorrow. I I can't show it to you, but let me just tell you the mesorah." Amrei Rav Shmuel, ad achas treifa. Any cut in the chuta shidra from the neck all the way down to the first, the achas, of the section of chuta shidra between the proshois, that's going to make the animal to a treifa. And shlishis is ksheira. The third, the third little cheilek of where the animal has these branches, that will make it not a treifa. But shniya the middle area of the bein haproshois, I'm not so sure if it's going to make it treifa or not. Bo Rav Huna brei Rav Yehoshua, moving over to amud aleph. We you have the land because since we're talking sections 1, 2, and 3, what about if there's an actual cut in the first section itself? Are we including it or not? Rashi's got good pictures here. Boy or papa and Tim Slimmer although we're not counting that first section and therefore that first section itself is also a of Safic. What about P per Russia Mahu? What about the actual P per Russia that's the mouth of the branch meaning that area where the branches kind of meet the spinal cord? Is that included in the first section or maybe that's not part of that first section and therefore be part of the Safic? And by your papa the other way you can ask in Tim Slimmer so per Russia Mahu what's going to be the in the actual branch itself? If that became detached from the spinal cord, would that make the animal into a treifa? So on these Toshi Mahu the Bryce says how per Russia Kabosser the branch is looked at like the busser itself meaning we'll just look at it like a flesh wound and it's not actually part of the spinal cord. Now which part of these branches from the spinal cord is the Bryce talking about? My love per Russia we shine a Ushnia which would at least be patient of Yermia's Shyla that a separation of these branches of the nerves themselves don't make the animal into a treifa. To which the master is like Schlesius. It might just be something with the third one which we have already established is for sure not part of the Shedrah and therefore would not make it into a treifa. Okay, let's now talk about birds. By Ifer what's the termination of the spinal cord when it comes to an Ifer? Rebi Anai Omer La Matam Ifer the Iker part of the Shedrah which if severed would make the bird into a treifa is going to go below the wings. That's the Agapaim. Reish Lakish Omer Ad Bain Agapaim only until between those wings. Omer have a coming in Bain Pazi. I was once in front of Bain Pazi and they brought him a bird that needed to be checked spinal cord and he Bain Agapaim and the Sholach Bain Nesia and after he checked between the wings the Bain Nesia sent him a message that he has to go to the Bain Nesia. You know you know it's like the White House just called him. The come and he left right away and now we simply just don't know. He picked up and left. He only checked until between the wings. I mean he shouldn't have he Bain maybe because he doesn't need to check anymore or you mention conveyed in the sea, maybe he left because he had to leave, but really he would have continued to check, and therefore we just don't know how much you have to check. And so concludes the shidra of the spinal cord, and now we're going to move on to the liver. Nitala kavede the mission said if the whole liver is gone, then the animal is a treif. It's only if nothing of the liver is left it's a treif, but let's say pieces of the liver would remain. Let's say you got chopped liver in there, then it would be kosher. Aful gav de lay have a size, even though it's less than a kazayis worth of liver, that would still be enough to make it kosher. But that's not a mission later in the perek is going to say nitala kavede nish'ara imena kazayis k'sheira. You have to have a kazayis remaining of liver so it can regenerate and be called like it has a kavede. Amru yes if like kasha ha Rabbi ha Rabbi Shimon bar Rabbi. It's a machlokes. And I'll show you that there's a machlokes. Ki hadra Rabbi Zarikla that when they would shecht an animal, Rabbi would discard this piece of liver cuz he didn't consider it as a healthy food. And what would determine whether it was healthy or not was whether or not the animal needed to live cuz the science of the time was that if an animal requires this thing to live must be that it is healthy even for us to consume. For Rabbi Shimon bar Rabbi mat below. But Rabbi Shimon bar Rabbi he would be toiveles, he would eat it, he would consider it like a healthy food. This is how Rashi learns. Rashi gives two different shots on whether or not it was a kashrus issue or it was a health food issue. The simanech, and how do you remember who would eat the liver and who would discard it? Because Ashirim mekamsim. The expression of wealthy people are careful with their money that Rabbi Shimon bar Rabbi who was takah rich, he was mekamsim in the sense that he wouldn't discard the liver but he would actually eat it. But Rabbi who wasn't rich, he would just discard it. And then we have a really interesting little vignette. A who pulmus de aslu Pumbedisa. An army one time came into Pumbedisa. This was never good news when armies would come into towns. So now you have Pumbedisa essentially being invaded by the royal army. Arku Rabbi bar Rabbi Yaisa. Rabbi and Rabbi Yaisa ran away. They left town. Puga be hu Rabbi Zera. Amru Rabbi Zera said to them, "Ar'e koi. You I want to say deserters, people who are arku themselves. They left." Kazayis amru be mukamara. What about if you have a piece of a kazayis of liver that the rabbonan said is necessary so it shouldn't be a treif. It needs to be where the mukamara is, where the gallbladder is, meaning in its proper location. >> Rebbi Avraham Avraham the makom shichaya. >> That k'zayis of liver has to be located in its original place, not by the gallbladder. >> Rebbi Papa hilchos therefore, in order to be m'kayem both of these de'os >> Rebbi Papa says we make shalom, both of these shitos should be niska'im. Mar Cheis interestingly points out that this is Rebbi Papa's derech throughout Shas. >> If you don't know if you should make a bracha shehechiyanu of lasik b'divrei Torah or asher bachar banu, therefore we make both. >> Apparently this is Rebbi Papa's b'halacha. I was thinking perhaps maybe that's why by a siyum we list the entire Papa mishpacha, maybe it has to do with that because he wanted to be m'kayem all of the shitos throughout Shas. I'm not sure. But anyway, just getting back to the story, really interesting. This army came to Pumbedisa, Rebbi Avraham Avraham left, Rebbi Zeira caught up to them and just had this very specific shaila about a piece of liver if it has to be by the gallbladder or it has to be in its original location. So Rebbi Azriel said over from the Sha'ar HaMitzvos B'Halacha that this was a shtikel mussar that you think you're running away from tzaros, but even the liver needs to still be by the makom mar'ah, by this agmas nefesh and tzaros. This is part of life that we have to deal with these kinds of tzaros. >> He gave us our certain mussar shmooz, but you got to hear Rebbi Gross on this one cuz Rebbi Gross brings from the Chasam Sofer where the Chasam Sofer had a historical context of during the milchamos when there were sieges on the cities, different rabbonim had different practices. Did the rabbonim abandon their cities in order to protect themselves cuz they have to leave cuz it's a makom sakanah? Maybe they could advocate on behalf of their city away from the danger zone? Or maybe if I care, they need to stay in the city with their kehilla. You can imagine these shailos were gut-wrenching shailos. And if you listen to Rebbi Gross who brings from the Chasam Sofer this lengthy tshuva that was talking about these different actual cities where the Noda B'Yehuda did one way and you had other gedolim that did other ways. So the Chasam Sofer wants to suggest that's what's going on in our sugia. This plimusah came into town, the rabbonim, meaning Rebbi Avraham Avraham left town. Comes Rebbi Zeira and says, "You're not doing the right thing. The koveid has to be there to protect the gallbladder from leaking the bile into the body in order to be kosher." To which Rebbi Avraham Avraham argues and says, "No, that liver has to be the shichiya in a place where it can live." So, they're being maram to this weighty shaila about the job of a rov in one of these kind of matzavim, if they should stay locally to act as a shliach to protect from the imminent danger, or they should go to the makom chaya. Pretty awesome way to look at this Gemara. Okay, boy Rab Yirmiya, mislkeit mahu. Let's say there's lots of little pieces of the chopped liver in different places, can you add them up to a shiur of a kazayis to be matir the beheima? Or kureitzu mahu. Let's say the liver is not in its normal shape, but it's a long thin strip, and the total volume may be a kazayis, but it's not in a normal kazayis kind of a matzav. Boy Rav Ashi, kazayis meruded mahu. Let's say it's flattened out, and to all these things are teiku. Boy minei Rav Sreika mi Rav Ami, nedal dil akoveid uma Rav Betarphishei mahu. Let's say the liver got dislodged, and it's kind of like hanging around inside that part of the animal, is that still going to be okay? Omar lei, Rav Ami says back to Rav Sreika, dildulzei any adei mahu. I don't know what you're talking about if it became loose, cuz il am and amar bemakom maro ho'ika, if it needs to be by the gallbladder to protect from the bile coming out, well the liver's there. And il am and amar bemakom shichiya ho'ika, and if you come it has to be in the actual location where it is chaya, then that's also what's happening here. So, mamon of shacha it should be kasher. And so concludes liver. Now onto lungs. Harei'ah shinikva, let's say there is a hole in the lung, the Mishnah said the animal will be a treifa. Rav Ushmuel Rav Assi do amrei karma iloi. So, all three, Rav Shmuel and Rav Assi say we're talking about that outer membrane of the lung. That's enough to make the animal to a treifa even if the inner part will stay intact. V'amrei lo, some say karma tata, it's the inner one, that's the one that has to have the puncture. Omar Rav Yaisa bar Minyumi Omar Rav Nachman, simanei kituna d'varda d'mancha b'reiya. The way to remember that it's the inner one that the Mishnah is talking about is that the rose colored bag head which houses the lung. And that lower tata part is going to be the red part. Now, pshita, e inkiv il aval inkiv tata, if the outer one is punctured but the inner one is not punctured, tata megan, then the inner one can protect that lung from losing air. It'll still be air tight, and therefore the animal will still be kasher. Kid Rav Omar Rav Harei'ah d'iglin, if you have a lung that was peeled, turning over to my base, Kahina Sumka. And now it looks like a red date, meaning we're talking about a geschachten animal where the lungs outer membrane is not there, it will still be kashira. So you see that the outer membrane of the lung is not as critical, and therefore even if it's got a hole, it won't treif up the animal. But in give that to the other one, in give it to the other one, let's say the inner one is cut or has a hole in it, and the outer one's not. So Megan or Megan, does the outer one stop the inner one from losing the air or not? So pligy bar of Ravina, Kahina or Megan, Kahina or Megan. Machlokes is hilchos treifos. Halacha, Megan Kider Rav Yisif, that the outer one by itself does protect, meaning keeps the air inside the lungs, according to Rav Yisif. What did Rav Yisif say? Domer Rav Yisif, hi Raya de Avsha, if you have a lung that makes a hissing noise, so you're looking at this lung and it's going because you know the air is getting out. So then we got to look at it. E adina hecha Avsha, if you know where the spot is where the hole is coming from, then my sfinna Godfor Yireka Agila, so you can plug up the spot with a feather or some Reich or some straw. And E Mevatsvisa, and if that stuff that you stuck in the little gap there to plug it up is fluttering or it's bubbling, then really air is clearly escaping and therefore the animal still can be a treifa. Be like share, but if it doesn't flutter, if it's not making flapping noises, then no air is getting out and the animal is going to be kosher. Veelo Yadina hecha Avsha, and if I don't know where it's making noise, meaning I can't find the source of the sound, but I can hear the sound. So what do you do? So my sfinna mesich lesa de Maya Pshurei, bring a big bowl of lukewarm water and my sfinna le biga and put the lung inside the water. Make sure you do it bechamimi vele de kavsei. Don't use hot water because hot water will shrivel the lung and it'll close up, but even though there's a hole, it'll prevent the air from coming out and you won't be able to tell. And also be kariri delay metarshei, don't use super cold water because the cold water will stiffen the lung and it will also make it into a bad test. Ele my sfinna Pshurei, bring water that's just right, a little lukewarm, then afchina lay and inflate the lung. So E Mevatsvisa treifa, if the water bubbles up, it's like your tire. When you have a hole in your tire, you know, they put it under water and you can see if it bubbles. If it bubbles up, then the animal is a treifa and the outer membrane was also clearly punctured. The alike share but the water doesn't bubble then you can say it's kosher because tata inkiv ilola inkiv. Because vice says the inner one has a hole and that's why I can hear it, but the outer one is not of a hole. Behind the avsha zika beni beni who and the noise you're hearing is the air between the two membranes, but that does not necessarily make it into a treifa. And therefore you see the shita of Rabbi Yosef that still going to be kosher if it's only the inner membrane that's punctured and not the outer one. Ahini sumka diyavish gildi simin gufa amar Rava hirea the iglid kahina sumka shera. If the lung was peeled like a red date, it's still going to be kosher. Bioma Rava nahala reasha hadima miktsa kishera. If a lung was red, meaning the blood is oozing into the tissues, it will still be kosher. But kula treifa, but if it's totally red then it's going to be a treifa. Amar lei Ravina le Rava, it's interesting Ravina talking to Rava. Ravina was a fat Talmud, Rava was much earlier. How could Ravina ever talk to Rava? Taisus in two blot is going to say that the Ravina in these Gemaras are not the same Ravina we're used to. It's a different Ravina. Anyway, whoever this Ravina was Amar lei Ravina le Rava miktsa tsasa my time. But let's say if part of it was reddened, why you going to say it's kosher? Dehadra bari because it can heal. So kula nami hudra bari, so even if it's totally red it can also become heal. As I'll show you melei tanya, didn't the braisa say ushar shkotsim um ramasim achi yotsim um dam? We have a totally different halacha. This is hilchos shabbos about creepy crawly things that there's no chiyuv for bruising them on shabbos until blood actually comes out of them. But if they don't actually bleed, then there's no chiyuv for chaval because the blood that wells up under the skin is not going to break through and it'll be reabsorbed. So it's not really considered a chaval. Chaval of course is a big shaila in Rishonim. Is it alt mishum tzeveya or alt mishum shocheit and it deals in neshama because malikula umalikula palga or maybe it's because of dash because mafarek is a tolda of dash like the Rambam shita. Either way, we're going to bring a raya from hilchos shabbos back to hilchos shita that the blood that never came out of these shkotsim is like the blood that's going to be not coming out of the lungs and therefore it can reheal. Correct the Gemara bechitem ushmaina shkotsim um damina lei maybe Rava would say you're comparing it to the wrong kind of shkotsim, not the creepy crawly shratzim, but rather the shmainish shratzim. The tiny cuts by the shmainish shratzim the braisa says "nitzura dama for bishul yotzei". Even if it just bruises, you are higher for hilchos shabbos and therefore bakaya variety other way that even if the blood is still trapped inside the flesh, it will be considered not healable. It's not going to go back and re be reabsorbed. To which the gemara says "yacha, if you're telling me that this lung that's red is like a bruise of the shmainish shratzim, I feel like mictas nami, then don't tell me mictas of the lung that's red is going to heal and be okay cuz if you're comparing it to shmainish shratzim, it won't be okay". So the halacha is not therefore Ravina says there's no chiluk and we don't seem to have a psak here and Rashi and Tosafos here actually argue about what the maskana the gemara is, if it's going to be kosher or not kosher. The next halacha by Amar Rabbah, re'ah a lung sheyavsha mictasa treifa. If it dried up in part, is it going to be a treifa or a kama? And how much does the lung have to be dried up and crunchy in order to be considered a treifa? Amar Rabbah "papi mishmei d'Rabbah k'dei she tifrach b'tziporen". That you can crumble it when you press it with your fingernail. So kiman, who's that going like Rabbi Asi ben Mashulam? It's not as we learned in the mishna by Chiyrus [snorts] and Lamed Zayin, "eizu hi yavasha?" What's considered a dried up ear of a bachar? It's amazing, we're going around shas just to tell you these different halachos. Because a bachar baal mum is going to be mutar, but you got to define the mum. So the ear, if it's dry and crunchy, is considered a mum. And what's the shiur for that? "she'im ti nukev ein matzias dam". If you make a hole in that dried up ear and no blood comes out, that's going to be considered a mum. Rabbi Asi ben Mashulam omer, "yavsha k'dei she tehein nifrachas b'tziporen". That you can actually crumble it with your fingernail. So we're going to say that Rabbah's psak is only going like Rabbi Asi ben Mashulam and not the Tanna Kamma. We're not really happy to say that. But I feel like "teima Rabbah din", you can even say that Rabbah is going according to the Tanna Kamma of that mishna. But what's the chiluk between the bachar's ear and our dried lung? Cuz gabei ozen bachar d'kashal b'zika. By the case of the bachar, it's exposed to the elements. It's outside by the wind. So "lo chazra bari". It's going to take less to say it's going to be ruined because it's not going to get healthy again. "aval re'ah d'leika kashal b'avira", the lung which is incubated inside the protection of the body, so that the 100 body can become healthy again. There's an amazing hidush around in the beginning of lulav aguzel that stells this too to a lulav that is dry. When we talk about the sheer for how dry does a lulav have to be, it uses this kind of example because the lulav is also exposed to the elements and therefore it have a different sheer for how crumbly it needs to be to be a yavesha that's posul. And he stells too b'umsh d'sugya. D'amar Rava, "I re'ah d'kame gildi gildi." If the surface of the lung has lots of scabs on it that are uchme uchme that are black or chazusa chazusa or different colors, all those things will be still kosher. Amar R'Ameimar m'shmei d'Rava, "Ein makifin b'vui." Don't compare holes to the blisters on the lung. These things have their own independent problems and therefore you cannot compare one to the other. And then we're going to stop here and pick it up with the amar Rava by the sirchus for tomorrow's daf.