Chullin Daf 43

All right, daf mem gimel, this is Friday's daf and we're going to pick it up from the top of mem gimel omar ulla shmaina minei treifos namrulay lamayshim sinai. There are eight categories. We said until now there were 18, but now we're going to say a different mahal to classify all the different groupings of treifos. He says there are eight. Eight shmaina minei treifos namrulay lamayshim sinai. What are they? Nekuva, meaning it has a hole, upsuka, if it's cut, netula, if it's taken out, chasura, it's missing, karua, it's torn, derusa, it's clawed, nefula, it fell, and shfura, it's broken. Those are the different eight categories that everything will fit into for all the treifos law. Okay, zok de gemara lakusa derachish bar papa. As opposed to like the illness, a lakusa is a disease, a sickness that rachish bar papa said that if an animal has this sickness in a kidney it's going to be a treifa. So ulla who doesn't list the category of lakusa argues with rachish bar papa and doesn't consider that to be a treifa. Omar chiyya bar rav shmaina treifos aish minei kuvva. There are eight separate treifos included in the category of nekuva, a hole. And in time retaysha, and if you say that there should really be nine, I'll tell you mara that ninth one which is the which is a treifa of a hole in the gallbladder. Rebyesi bar byehuda actually learns it detanya nikva hakayva or nikvu hadakim is going to be treifa. If this part of the stomach has a hole in it or the intestines have a hole in it the animal is a treifa. Rebyesi bar byehuda eimer af nikva hamara. Even if the gallbladder has a hole in it. But rechiya bar rav who's saying this says I hold really like the chachamim. I don't hold like rebyesi bar byehuda and therefore I only count eight rather than nine. But now we're going to talk about the shita of rebyesi bar of yesef who says rebyesi and that does hold like rebyesi bar byehuda that a hole in the mara is a treifa. First we get another siman hilchos chavar kizaish mara korkuvan siman. Omar rebyesi bar of yesef rebyesi halacha rebyesi bar byehuda that a hole in the mara in the gallbladder makes the animal into a treifa. The omar rebyesi bar of yesef omar rebyesi maya hadrei chavar le rebyesi bar byehuda. What did the chavarim of rebyesi bar byehuda respond back to argue that the hole in the mara is not a treifa cuz the possuk in Iyov says "Yishpach la'aretz merei rosi." That Iyov had said that he pours out his gallbladder to the ground, clearly saying that he has a hole in his gallbladder. But "V'adayin Iyov kayem." But Iyov was saying that even though he has this hole in his gallbladder, literal or otherwise, but it's not a wound that's going to kill him. He's living. "Amar lohem, so K'dei b'Rebbi Yehuda, ein maskirin ma'aseh Nissim." Don't hack me a chinik from Iyov cuz it's considered ma'aseh Nissim. He shouldn't have survived all the horrible things that were happening to him anyway. "Dilai teima ha'chi, if you don't say that, the possuk says 'Yiflah kliyosai v'lo yachmol.'" That he cuts up my kidneys and he's not giving me rachmanus. So "Mi chachai, could a person live without kidneys?" "Ela nisei shinai." Iyov was living upinish. "Dichsiv 'Ach es nafsho yishmor.'" That even though Hashem gave the Satan permission to do whatever he wants to Iyov, but he said "You got to spare his life. He has to live." So "Okay, now I'm in nisei shinai." So Iyov was living upinish and therefore he can't bring a raya from Iyov. Continuing, "Amar Rebbi Yitzchak bar Yosef amar Rebbi Yochanan, 'Halacha k'divrei Amar K'zayis.'" The halacha is like those who say that an animal requires a k'zayis of its liver, of its koved, not to be considered a treifa. "U'mei amar Rebbi Yochanan ha'chi?" "Amar Rebbi Abahu amar Rebbi Yochanan amar Rebbi Yochanan 'Halacha k'stan Mishnah.'" "V'itnan 'Nitla hakoved v'lo nish'ar mimenu klum d'arba sh'no.'" Which is a stan Mishnah. It already said that the animal is a treifa if the liver is out and nothing's left there. "What honi sh'tar k'sheira?" It sounds like if any part of the liver is remaining, "Afilu gav d'lo yehei k'zayis." Even though it's less than a k'zayis. So Rebbi Yochanan holds you always go like a stan Mishnah. How can he say that you must have a k'zayis worth of liver in order for it not to be a treifa? And for the Gemara "Amar Ravina amar Rebbi Yochanan." And you're right, there's a machlokes in what Rebbi Yochanan actually had held. "V'amar." Sha'ala in the Girsah here. "Rebbi Yitzchak bar Yosef amar Rebbi Yochanan, 'Marah shinikva v'koved soisamta k'sheira.'" Let's say the gallbladder has a hole in it, but the liver that's right next to the gallbladder actually naturally closes up the hole. This is actually an important lamdish sha'ala. When the halacha l'Moshe mi'Sinai identifies different treifas, let's say it naturally heals, will that be enough to take away the tarfus? And this is not of course the natural natural way it heals, but l'ma'aseh it was a natural process. So he's saying is if such a hole happens and the liver actually fills that hole, the animal's kosher and will not be a treifah. The kishke it's kosher. Let's say the outer part of the kishke, which is the gizzard of the bird, had a hole, but the inner part the kishke is still intact and has no hole, that bird is going to be kosher and it's not going to be considered a treifah. But let's say let's say it was the other way around, the inner part was punctured with a hole, but the outer area of the kishke is still intact. What's going to be the halacha? They bring you a raya to Rav Nachman Let's say they both have a hole, but they're not lined up one with the other. It'll still be kosher. You have to have the hole go right away through. And similarly, there's actually two layers to the esophagus. You've seen all the pictures. The outer one is red, the inner one is white. Let's say there's a puncture that doesn't go all the way through. There's only a puncture on one of them, the animal is still kosher and not a treifah. So who cares? What's the significance of one being white, one being red? Why do you have to tell me that? of treifah, if somehow they got switched that the red was on the inside and the white was on the outside, and the animal would be a treifah. And now we're going to ask a shaila which is going to be lined up with the previous shaila. Let's say if both layers had a hole in it, but the holes weren't aligned. One was higher up, one was lower down, and they don't go all the way through in a straight line. What's going to be the halacha? So the veshet kosher, the kishke pasul. It depends. By the veshet it'll be kosher, by the kishke it'll be pasul. Maskifler Rav Ashi, ad rabba, shisif karet. The achla bay, upaya bay. By the food pipe, by the veshet, where the animal eats and makes noise. Or Rashi brings another loshon, maybe it means where the animal breathes. Rav Ach gam dalay uposh dalay. And therefore it's constantly expanding and contracting and stretching. So zimnin So it could be sometimes these two non-aligned holes will actually line up one with the other because they keep changing in size. And therefore it could be one hole that goes all the way through making the animal into a treifah. But kishke But by the case of the kishke, that gizzard that doesn't move around, so good to go. as a result of a wound on the Vesset is not considered a crumb. And therefore, the animal is still looked at as it has a hole in it, so it's still a treifa. The animal Vesset ain't like a beacon in the middle of the Vesset. It can't be just looked at from the outside because it's all red, so you won't be able to see anything special. You have to look from the inside. Only where there's that white inside layer. Turning over to let's say it's possibly possibly clawed up by another animal. And therefore, you have to take an internal inspection to see if it has this internal damage. So when you're looking at this Vesset, you got to look from the inside white area, and not from the outside red area. So how do we do that? There was this Vesset so how do we do that? He checked out the Vesset from the outside. You're the one who said you got to check it from the inside. So after we turn it inside out and look from the inside white area. And he found two red spots. And he made a treifa. And ends up the whole thing. Of course, he knew the right halacha. He was testing his student and that's why he waited for him to speak up about it. Let's say you the Vesset, but you don't see a wound. You just see the thorn. The halacha is you don't have to it healed up afterwards. But we rather assume that it never went ahead and punctured the outer layer of the Vesset. Therefore, it never became a treifa. Now let's ask a bunch of questions on this question of that you don't have to be worried that there was a treifa and then it healed up afterwards. But we rather assume that it never went ahead and punctured the outer layer of the Vesset. Therefore, it never became a treifa. Now let's ask a bunch of questions on this question of that you don't have to be worried that >> this sack of Ulla that you don't have to be khashish that shem heveri. According to Ulla, why are you allowed to be meikel? Why shouldn't this be just like a sack of Ulla where you said you have to be khashish and you have to be to find whether or not it has the wounds. According to Ulla, why are you allowed to be meikel? He's not worried about Ulla. Okay, the second Ulla what about every example of Ulla where you have two pieces of meat, one's kosher one's not, and you don't know which one's which. So bring Ulla. So clearly you have to be for the Ulla. So why if you find the kites then you also have to be Ulla. If you have Ulla one of them is definitely Ulla and therefore you have to take it into account and therefore you have Ulla. But by Ulla's case it's only a possibility that there might be an issue but there's no issue in front of you at all. And take a look at the small but very important little Ulla over here that says that by a single Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla even though there is no Ulla it's also Ulla. So by a single Ulla by a single Ulla since there's no Ulla you can't work with it. The Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla is a real Ulla it's not just the absence of Ulla which is what the Ulla are busy with. Third Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla Why are you saying that you don't have to be Ulla for the kites that it was Ulla why is it any different from the case of when you check the knife and then afterwards you found out it was Ulla after the because back in Ulla there was no Ulla but we have to be Ulla for something because the neck of Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla you're looking at a knife with a nick on it. So it has an actual active Ulla so you have to Ulla Ulla. The fourth Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla Why is Ulla's case of the kites that you're not Ulla Ulla Ulla any different than regular Ulla Ulla Ulla you always go Ulla and say it's Ulla. This should also be like Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla There's no logic that you should go more towards the Ulla of the Ulla Ulla Ulla than the Ulla Ulla Ulla. Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla Ulla that we learned from Ulla. and you cannot steal it too. Now, Yosef bar Chumin Rabbanan came in the room of Kahana. The Yosef Amar Nimsais Itmar. The member of Ulla saying that when you find this thorn in the veshet, it was nimsais. So, if it's nimsais takka and not stuck in the skin, then Ulla's not going to be choshesh. I will yoshev, let's say this thorn is lodged in the veshet, then choshesh and even Ulla will be maschem there should be a choshesh of treifus. Amar Lehu Rav Kahana, "Lait it tsisu lei. Don't listen to him, cuz yoshev Itmar. When Ulla said his halacha, he said yoshev. I will nimsais lait tsisu lei Ulla, but if you actually found it and it wasn't nimsais, you wouldn't even need Ulla to say the halacha at all. Kulhu gave a very also kaita achlan. These animals, where do you think they're eating? They're eating thorns. So, there's always going to be thorns there. So, obviously that's going to be kosher. All right, new sugia. Itmar. Tur bet savveshet. Let's say the top of the veshet, where it attaches itself to the jaw, Rav Amar Be'Mashi'hu, the smallest amount will make it into a treifa. The animal will only be a treifa if roiv of the veshet in that area is going to be cut. Rav Amar Be'Mashi'hu cuz makom shechita, so it has the halachos of regular makom shechita. And therefore even the smallest little hole will make it into a treifa. Be'Shmuel Amar Be'Ruvai because lav makom shechita, that area so high up where it attaches to the jaw is not really the makom shechita, and therefore you need to be roiv in order to make it into a treifa. Now, Hainihu Tur Bet Savveshet. Now that we're talking about this thing, we got to define exactly where it is. Where does it start on the neck? Amar Mari bar Mar Ukva Amar Shmuel, Kol She'Chaitchei U'Marchiv, if you cut this part of the neck and it kind of expands, zehu Tur Bet Savveshet, that's this area that we're talking about now. However, any lower than that, Chait Chait V'Eino Bim'Kaimai, and it doesn't move, it doesn't expand after the cut, zehu veshet atzmai, that's the actual veshet. But Amar Lehu Rav Papi, Mar Lei Amar Hachi, and the Gemara says, now U'Manu, who's that who argues? Rav Bibi bar Abba, that Rav Papi saying Rav Bibi bar Abba disagrees. Cuz Ella, what does he hold? Ella Kol She'Chaitchei V'Eino Bim'Kaimai is it Tur Bet Savveshet? Whatever you cut and stays in the same, that's the actual top part of the Tur Bet Savveshet. But Ella Zehu Veshet Atzmai Kol She'Chaitchei V'Chavitz. The actual veshet is the part that when you cut it, it contracts and gets smaller. Yaina, which kind of a unique name in Gemaras, Yaina Umbrazeira Mivlata at the Veshet is where it swallows, which is the top of that esophagus, very close to the opening. And how much of the length of the Veshet does this comprise? Omar of Avia Pachus May Sa'arta of Od of Mechitosa. A little smaller than a piece of barley, but bigger than a grain of wheat. A Hutura Havei Livnei Rav Ukva. There was an ox that belonged to the sons of Rav Ukva. De'askalbei Shchita Bi'turbei De'veshet Ve'gomer De'veshet. They started up high up at the Turbei De'veshet and they went down to the actual Veshet. Omar Rav Ramina Alei Chumrei De'rav Ve'chumrei De'shmuel Ve'tarifna Lei. I'm going to make the Chumras of Rav and the Chumras of Shmuel and therefore I'm going to make it into a Treif. Even though each respective Amira would think it should be okay, but because of the way I'm going to Paskin, it's going to become Treif. Chumrei De'rav To Omar Rav Amashu. And now you've got Amashu who in that part of the animal. Now for Omar Rav Makom Shchita, if you're going to say that Rav holds that that part of the Veshet is actually Shayach To Shchita and therefore it shouldn't become a Treifa. Ki'shmuel De'omar Rav Makom Shchita, I can always also hold like Shmuel to hold it's not really the Makom Shchita and therefore you're not Yaitzei at all. And Ishmuel Omar Bruva, according to Ishmuel says that it's only a Treifa if you cut Reiv of it and therefore it should actually be Kosher, but in that case I can also go like Ki'rav De'omar Bin Mashu and therefore I'm going to ruin this animal's Koshrus no matter what. Now after he made this Psak, Agagel Milson Mitoyla K'mei De'rabi Ava. Eventually Rabi Ava heard about this Psak of what Rava said. Omar Lo, so he said to the people who told him about this, "Tura Bein L'rav Bein L'shmuel Shari. I hold this is going to be Mutar whether it's Rav or whether it's Shmuel for different reasons." So Zilu Omar Lei Livrei De'rabi Yaisa Bar I'm going to tell that son of Rabi Yaisa Bar Chama who is Rava who made that first Psak, "De'lishalem De'meitera L'mari." That he should pay the value of this ox to the owners to reimburse the loss. The way Rashi explains it is over here, since he made the Psak that it was Treif, they had already fed it to the dogs. So it's not like he can just say, "Don't worry guys, it's Kosher." No, it's too late. This animal doesn't even exist. So now the question is, because he gave this incorrect Psak, which according to Rashi he's being taught with the Rabbanan, you should have known better. This is known in Halacha. You can't give a theoretic Psak like this. So Rava should have to pay for it. And we're going to stop here and pick it up with Omar Mar Bar Ravina for Shabbos's Dove.