Chullin Daf 41

All right, daf mem alef, Wednesday's daf, as we finish this perek and tomorrow get into the world of avoda zara, but first we're on mem alef amud alef still talking about ein adam asur davar shel acher shel yadayim. And we're on the fourth line of mem alef amud alef toshema. We could bring a raya from our mishna that a person could asur his friend's stuff because our mishna said two people are holding a knife and they do it together. One of them is for one of these avoda zaras, meaning the haram or the etc. And the other guy is doing it for a good reason or no reason, but certainly not for avoda zara. The The mishna says it's pasul. Now what do you think the case is? You got two guys, only one of them is the owner of the animal and yet you see that one of them can asur their friend's stuff. So adam is asur davar shel acher shel yadayim. And then the mishna says this lay shutfus bigavah. They both own it. But in a case where only one of them owned it, we would say ein adam asur davar shel acher shel yadayim. It's actually an important here that says that even though ein adam asur davar shel acher shel yadayim, but there still would be a avoda zara and it would be asur to eat it. So it's asur, but it would still pasul shchita. All right, let's try again. Toshema from the mishna hametameh. If somebody is metameh somebody else's peros with tumah. Or hamedamea, or somebody mixes trumah into somebody else's peros. Or there's our big punchline. If somebody does nisuch hayayin to avoda zara with his friend's wine, beshogeig is patur but bemeizid is chayav. So you see bemeizid is chayav. Yeah, I can go ahead and bemeizid make your stuff into to avoda zara. I can go ahead and make it asur. But it still says adam is asur davar shel acher shel yadayim. To which the mishna says no how can this lay shutfus bigavah? We're talking about kimta in that mishna in gittin that he actually does have a shutfus in an ownership stake in it. And therefore it's not a davar shel acher shel yadayim. This incidentally is the gemara that Rashi uses on the bottom of amud beis from yesterday that even bemeizid ein adam asur davar shel acher shel yadayim. Because that's the gemara's whole point. Even though you're being but ein adam asur davar shel acher shel yadayim. But now the gemara finally says it's really a machlokes tanayim whether a person could be asur davar shel acher shel yadayim based on the following braisa. Let's say you have something that belongs to somebody else. Let's say you have something that belongs to somebody but it's not in front of an so there's like a little bit of legal leeway here. So the he friends wine these are matter the wine for two different reasons and since you didn't do it in front of the is less of a reason to the like calling you any lines. Who are you to go ahead and my wine against my own so these two tonight are basically expressly saying and you have now enough tonight in this brisa whether or not is it for one year to his friend's stuff and there is an important safer which I believe is the that wants to know why did our bring the from this brisa there's a often a mission in the which would be a better source the mission in Mission has a mission can I go ahead and lay down a carrot in my friend's Vineyard whether or not it'll my friend's Vineyard that's a clear tonight in a mission Adam or in Adam Mission in the makes an important between which is not as close to the that is trying to do because is all about the whereas the what's the real there it's not the of the it's the that you're doing it and in the same way the that to the is the actual but the laying these grape vines in somebody else's field that's not about the that's about the action and the compares it to if I go ahead to your house and I take the milk and meat out of your fridge and I cook them together it's going to be that doesn't get into the and it doesn't cuz there's a this is mixed now you have to justify according to the other remember it's a tonight in the mission how do you have a if you're telling me it's a well the answer could be because you could be cuz once I plant that clay with the other men, I could also be maffered them. I could separate them after the fact. You can't do that with both of the ones. That's why it might be different. But it's an important safer because the of the is not just about the action, it's about the being continues the these would say this is not going to be because holds that might only be by a guy who you have to assume will want to do it But if the one doing the of is a it could be he's not really intending to do because he's a he just wants him to think he's doing now on this point that can be assumed to be not to actually do the to bring a from our if two people are holding the knife and together one of them is doing it one of these etc. The but according to these why don't we just assume that the one who's doing it and etc. is only doing and not trying to do if the we're talking about somebody who we can't say it was he is an actual okay to bring a from the mission and getting but why should we say say okay now maybe where we're not going to be able to say I'm going to let's say I told this guy if you do this you're going to be and then he does it is that enough to take him seriously that we're not saying it's and he really means to do the and he said we're talking about a guy who said yeah I'm being your and I'm thinking I'm going to do the and you're right we can assume that he did it for the and therefore we can say this stuff is so mission as now we get into the ideas of my and I don't I'm not into the water and the kid If you're shachting to the water or you're shachting into a keili which makes it look like you're collecting the dam for some kind of avodah, potential avodah zarah, those things are all going to be assur al maris ayin. Aval, what can you do? Shacht it to the s'ach ugashal mayim, you can shacht into a pool of water. U'visfinah algabei keilim, or if you're on a boat, you could do it into keilim. You don't want the blood getting all over the deck of your ship. But then, ain shachtin l'guma k'leiker, don't do it into a guma for any reason. Aval, eis a guma b'sach beischa b'shul sheyachnas adam l'sach. But you could do it in a pit in your house so the dam should go into it. Of course, this is a hard mission to read and the gemara is going to work it out. U'vishuk l'yaseikain, but don't do it in a public place in the street. Sh'lo turning over tumas beis. Yichaka es hatzedukim, our girsa is tzedukim here not minim. You don't want to give any kind of credence to what the tzedukim would do because they would do this avodah zarah in the public street. So, the gemara ain shachtin l'sach etc. But you could do it into the water. So, ma ishna l'sach yamim d'lo, why can't you shacht into the actual yam? Damri l'sar d'yam k'shacht. People are saying you're doing it for this avodah zarah, the sar of the mayim. The sar of the yam. So, l'sach ugashal mayim nami, if you're doing it to a pool of water, should also be assur. And what would be the avodah zarah even though there's no sar sh'al yam? Because damri l'b'vucha shacht. Because people are going to say you're doing it for the avodah zarah of your reflection. So, mar Rav b'achurim sh'ainu, we're talking about dirty water which doesn't have a reflection. Okay. Ain shachtin l'guma b'chulu, you can't shacht into a pit no matter what, but you can make a pit in your house so the dam should go into the pit in your house. So, if the gemara ain shachtin l'guma k'lal, so why are you allowed to do it in your house? Amri Rabaya, reisha b'guma sh'b'shuk. The earlier part of the mission was saying you can't do it into a guma, that's talking about in a public place. Now, even though you might be thinking, well, isn't maris ayin assur afilu b'chader chadarim when there's no one around? To that, take a look at Tosefos at the bottom of amud beis where Tosefos addresses this because if somebody would actually go into the chader chadarim into your house and they would see you do that, they wouldn't even think you're doing anything wrong because haraya sh'eisa b'beischa amarlo nakah chatzeiro, who I see is only cleaning his yard. So, Tosefos makes a chilluk. I believe other rishonim make other chillukim. I do remember Rabbeinu Chananel in Kesubos asking the kasha of why is the halacha that if your gums are bleeding, you're allowed to swallow the dam because it never left your mouth. But if the dam would leave your mouth, you wouldn't be able to put it back in your mouth. That would be the issue of swallowing dam. Freckle eye, my son is also a field of dam. So even though no one can see it, still be a sir. And the way I remember it, had said that since it's possible for someone to see it, therefore it's going to be a sir. But no one can possibly go into your mouth, and therefore that would even be less of a dam than dam. But anyway, getting back to our by it said that the earlier part of the mission was talking about a gooma in the shook in a public place, but not in your house. Rob I have a home in Safa, but you got to ask Kane about Kane. So the mission itself seems like it's not talking about the shook. Hello, I'm a robber. What the mission is saying the following. And in the gooma don't shift into a gooma no matter what. Right so the but someone wants to clean up his backyard. How does he handle it? I saw him put the gooma you should make a hole in the ground outside of this gooma and shift over it. The dam shifts and the gooma and the blood will move from down from this little cut out that you did in the ground into that gooma. Who you ask Kane, but don't do that in the actual street. So we don't actually give any to the or the meaning people who arrived there by the tiny because I am a student of someone traveling in a boat. I'm not a student of someone who shifts. You could shift over the edge of the boat. The dam shifts and it'll definitely run down the wall of the outside of the boat. The dam shifts and the gooma don't do it into a gooma no matter what. But right so the what do you do? I saw him put the gooma and the dam shifts and it'll go trickle into it. Who you ask Kane, but you should never say don't do it in a public place because of this issue acting like the guy must have Kane. We got to check him out. We got to actually check him out. Make sure that he's not actually a man. Make sure he's not being a man of which would his pita and as Rashi says, his bread and wine. So the mission more about this my design a guy doesn't actually let's say a guy doesn't actually have an but he shifts for the sake of an so again it's kind of what he's doing. But the question is based on how people are going to view it, what's going to be the if someone shifts for an ola, or the zevachim, or for other korbanos like a shlamim, or leshem asham talui, or leshem pesach, leshem toda, all those things are be shchitas pesula. Now, since these things are not korbanos, they're not going to be shchutei chutz. And therefore, min ha Torah, the shchita is going to be a kosher shchita. But, chazal were afraid that people are going to think maybe the guy was makdish it at the shas shchita, and therefore this is now shchutei chutz. So, therefore, chazal assur the shchita of these meats because of this shash mid'rabana. But, for Rebbe Shimon ben Elazar, we're not worried about people making such a mistake. Shnei meichsin besakin beshechtin two people holding the knife and shechting together. Echad leshem echad mikolel, ve'echad leshem davar acher, and each have the conflicting intentions. Halacha is shchitasan pesula. Now, let's talk about the kinds of korbanos that you can't just bring bin'dava. A shechita leshem chatas, leshem asham vadai, leshem bechor, leshem ma'aser, leshem temura, all those things are shchitas asher because there's nothing to worry about. People are not going to say, "Oh, the guy was makdish it for these things right before he shechted it." Because you can't do that. You can't bring it bin'dava. Zeh klal, kol davar she'ein bin'dava shaiach leshmai assur. Anything that could be brought voluntarily as an eder or a nedava is going to be assur. Leshein o nedar o nedav. If it's not possible to bring voluntarily a shechita leshmai is going to be kosher because everybody's going to realize it's just a narishkeit. So, like the Gemara, a shechita leshem ola, it's going to be passul. For the Gemara, asham talui bar neder o nedav. Can you bring an asham talui without being muchuyav to? You can't. And therefore, why would anybody think you were makdish it at that time? Amora Yochana, how many were going according to Rebbe Elazar? He to omer misnadev o demasham talui bechulyam. You are allowed to be mitnadev asham talui. And therefore, if our tana, our mishna is going like shitas Rebbe Elazar, that's something you can understand. I pesach bar neder o nedarhu. Can you actually bring a korban pesach voluntarily? Zimna kavila. It has to be at that time. Amora Vaisha, shanei pesach acher shoshei kol hashana kula. You can always designate that korban pesach the whole year. So, people might actually think they were makdish the animal, and therefore he's doing a shchutei chutz. Amora Rebbe Yanai, leishana ela temimim. This halacha is only by a tam, the one that does not have a mum. Aval ba'alei mumim, madea yedeya. People are going to see that it's not shaiach for bringing as a korban, and therefore you have nothing to worry about. For Rebbe Yochana, omer a filu ba'alei mumim nami. Why? Because in the d'rumi lemidi, amuma velo yedeya. Maybe he's going to cover up the moment people won't know that it's about moment they'll still be that you are doing the then the mission if you bring it for which is not a baby that's got to be talking about a guy who's not already to bring a carbon then will he didn't say he was bringing for he said so and therefore that's why you'd have to be tomorrow will also be on it doesn't have the opportunity to bring another carbon in its tomorrow I will email maybe he actually is doing tomorrow and call me tomorrow is if he the fact that he didn't say it we could in the case that he said he's doing it for a tomorrow the mission says that if you bring it for anything that's in the double will be puzzle but if it's not in the double will be kosher so the mission listed every possible case so what are we coming to include that if you this carbon the of a carbon for a it will be puzzle because since the didn't say he wanted to be a but people who are watching say maybe he was already a closet and then the mission had said anything that cannot be brought in the double so that's that includes the of an issue who gave birth that that will be a kosher I'm going to qualify that the that's only time I had a guy who has no wife I will actually but if he has a wife the guy who's witnessing the might think that he's doing the for the sake of her and therefore is kosher and then I think I like no problem he said he's doing it for his wife well then if he's talking married man why do I have to tell us this moving over to my in if his wife gave birth everybody in will be talking about it we would know that his wife gave birth so that a pulley apple maybe they are leaning the woman had a full-term miscarriage, which you do bring carbonus for because a woman might have this miscarriage without people knowing about it. So, if this man who's married says he's schmoozing an animal for an ladies and he has a wife, the person who sees it is going to assume the woman was not pillow of blood, which is in a carbon and therefore there's a minor sign that he's doing the Rashi is a completely different gear in the Gamara, but this is the simple way to read the Gamara. With that and we begin the world of treifus.