Chullin Daf 30

All right, daf lamed, this is shabbos's daf. Yesterday we introduced the machlokes between Levi Saba and Rebbe Yochanan whether there's yeshna shchita metchilah v'ad soif. Rebbe Nachman brought rayus from the Torah to them, then it had a rayus from parah adumah because you're only going to become tamei from doing the avodah of the parah adumah. And Rebbe Zeira had a kasha on Rebbe Yochanan because if you hold yeshna shchita metchilah v'ad soif, like Rebbe Yochanan holds that the process is incremental and you're oisek in the avodah the whole time, then the tanna in meseches parah should have been mechaleik between the psul of the avodah within shchita itself. If there's a psul in the shchita, rather than talk about chazarah. That was the last kasha we had, and the gemara had said, "Well, if you're niskael in the shchita, it's igul me'usar me'afrei that it was never a shchita." But now we're up to Rava, about 10 lines from the bottom of chof tes amud beis, ikashli hakashli. You know what the problem with the mishnah in parah is? This is going to be the kasha. Because l'man d'amar einah shchita ela l'soif, because l'man d'amar einah shchita ela l'soif, which is Levi Saba, that the only time there's actually a maiseh shchita is at that last moment, that's the shchita. Uliflei b'hechsher d'parah, we should be talking about a kosher parah adumah. But what happened to the b'trei gavrei? Two different shochtim did it together. Digavra kama lematama, the first guy, who according to Levi Saba was not really doing the avodah because it's only l'soif. Digavra basra is matama, the last guy who finished the job, that's the actual maiseh shchita, he's the one who's going to become tamei. So you have a kasha on Levi Saba from the fact that the mishnah does not mechaleik between the two people and one person. Amar Rebbe Yosef, trei gavrei b'chad z'vicha kamai, you're talking about two people doing the avodah of the parah adumah. Bar minai dahu, you got to take that idea off the table. Because the tannina we learned in the braisa, tizbach, which we darsh sh'lo yihyu shnayim shochtim z'vachecha, that two people can't shocht one korban. And since the whole word in the pasuk says tizbachu, which we darsh sh'lo yihyeh echad shocheit shnayim z'vachim, that one person can't shocht two different korbanos at the same time. V'amar Rebbe Kahana, tizbacheihu k'siv, that the kri is tizbacheihu, and you read it the way it's written, not with the u sound after the ches. So the braisa is b'feirush saying that two people are not allowed to shocht one korban. So it's impossible to say that the case was going to be if two people are shacking cuz that's not the halacha. Omar Aba, back to Lavie didn't we say this price that two different moving over to sit in to have on the side that it was from a ton of but I'm trying to shake them two people could shake one carbon according to the ton of could have made this between one and two people or every single day and even according to him you could make the between a case of a kosher Parah Adumah and what would that case be going to govern maybe we're not talking about two shakers we're talking about one shaker who's wearing multiple hats this is not figurative this is literal he's literally has two hats it gets changed on him in the middle of the shita process the sudra come cuz at that point when he was wearing hat number one he has not yet done the because it's in a little and therefore his hat's not Tommy but Mr. Katz the coin over here who now we can call the cats in the hats his second sudra the sudra will be because that's when the actual takes place and that's when he's actually doing the and from the fact that the ton of did not make such a it's a connected that this in a site you want to defend maybe this is the way to do it the Parah you have to Parah Adumah but you're not talking about a case of when the Parah Adumah is good the ton of wouldn't be concerned to give us a about the site or not that's not the issue the issue should be whether or not the person's tummy and then for the mission in Parah is not taking sides on this and we can ask on from the following the is that when you shake the you have to have no comments in your house all the comments down now let's say it's not your dollar but you had a carbon you lost it and then you found it again so now I have this carbon I'm shaking the question is going to be when I come to shake this Parah that was designated as a carbon Parah even though it's not this one will I also have the issue of so the should be if you shake it not for the carbon Parah but rather for a carbon then you will be you'll have that same of the we have and there was a over there on that mission because time with the only reason why you're for this is the only reason because you didn't do it for the but rather for but let's say I just did it and I didn't specifically intend it to be a you'd be but in fact the and of course we're not yet up to our this is just the background information before our lady am I why are you going to be for having automatically becomes a carbon and automatically becomes a carbon and therefore it should have that same of and and be to have in your house. So vice versa from this mission that you need to have this uprooting of the original carbon kite in order to make it into a carbon again not our but this is the background. This was said in the by the people who were there really don't need to have the but talking about where the people who own the carbon were actually to my base and the is that they would bring it on the of that's normally happens and the and since the original carbon can be offered at that time it doesn't need to have a special designation but will be for the kind of that we require an active from its carbon kite to a carbon because since that carbon designation is still going to stay there until you of year but a regular carbon that was lost on the 14th and found again it's not going to require an it'll automatically become a carbon now finally we're up to our on lady of if it's a process like and holds then then if three so then the carbon should be even from the beginning of the based on what the had said that it will need an and becomes the beginning of the since you're not doing it at the appropriate time of so then you're not going to be for having the in your house cuz you're not doing a proper carbon in the life like lady and keeping the once they a just a bit so it's no longer shaya to last until you tell a year it came in Pesach. It's now out of the category of possibly being a carbon Pesach. It's automatically going to become a carbon shalom and therefore when you do the rest of the shalom now you're a carbon shalom in which case you will have the issue of having comments in your house and therefore the mission should say so going connected Saba on my way by back to the heat let me Pesach. You're right. It's no longer shaya to becoming a carbon Pesach and you can't save it Pesach but with the may Pesach it still has the domain so it has a still to the carbon Pesach and by you going to say well this animal is dying already and therefore you start to and therefore you won't be able to appraise it and be able to get his money value out. No, it's not true because what's done the mission says even though it's not necessarily a mission but is but I don't need me for even if the animal is just flailing about and therefore you could do the and you could still get its value close by its quote unquote alive and that's the end of this discussion of the invited on my way a couple of let's say you in two or three places on the neck shaya when I came to only he said to me you need to have a clear open cut but like you don't. So what are we talking about here? So the way learns is that you did a small area on the neck not not enough to be in the and you did another small area in the neck and then between those small ones you did a larger one but the problem was because since you did the small incisions over here on the neck going to end up making your larger cut in the center smaller because of the expansion of the neck when it gets cut on the two sides. That's the other bring from the that we're talking about where you're making a several smaller cuts that you want to be to a full shear. But there's no question you're making several cuts on the neck and now the issue is whether or not it needs to be means it's open and clearly cut open wide for everybody to see and if you're being smaller pieces or if the smaller pieces close up the bigger piece either way it's not necessarily going to be before us. So, if the offer of Bishamon been lucky show up in the initial to before us and even Rishikesh also hold you have to have this open sheet of a fire ass. Don't worry Bishamon been lucky mean I know she she may fire ass had a one has to be the way she hates Shaka Mirim and Diba. We're using the expression of a hate an arrow. An arrow goes to one particular point and it's very clear in that one point, the opening. Must have ready a loser Schnieder makes a mistake in the section. We're going to learn in the Mishnah on base that two people, two Shaka are holding a knife and they're cutting the same neck of an animal. I feel like I'm a lover and I might be from one is higher up on the neck and one is lower down. She hates a section of the fire my whole like a sheet of a fire ass. So, look how are you seeing you don't have to have sheet of a fire ass. No, I'm a layer of a year Mia Mishnah saying in the second half who should be in the middle. We're talking about one knife with two people holding it. So, there's only one cut and therefore it is before us. I'm a layer of a year above the year of you tell me two people are holding one knife. I knew the Tony a lot in Christian Sham a true for sale said we're not worried that maybe each one is going to make the animal a treyfa. That's what is said in the Gamora about that Mishnah. Now, you have a Mishnah Mishnah second Mishnah in the Mishnah of two people two knives, then Shaka I have that kind of a concern. My word of Tamer Lakers to my son here today they each might think that the other one did a proper sheet and therefore the other one didn't have to worry about it. It's like giving something to a committee when each one thinks the other one takes care of it. The hide away I will see the mayor of a Rubba. So, turns out this guy didn't do right of the neck behind the layers of the mayor of a Rubba. So, Kamash London Christian that could be a hidden that time is like it's not to be worried about that. That makes sense if it's two different men with two different knives. The year of a Rubba second half of the Mishnah of Adam. So, how in Christian Sham a true for sale said Sham a year of a true for sale said maybe boy lay the issue isn't going to be about the tarfus of the animal. That's not relevant. It's about the drisha because if they're both holding the same knife the Shaka should absolutely be that they're going to push too hard and and do a drisha to ruin the sheet of the animal. So, that can't be the Shaka. So, I'm a layer of a year of Adam. The year of Adam said back to the year of Adam to me change it and say ain't Christian turning over to my base Sham a year of a drisha for sale said in the Gamora. That's going to be the Mishnah that the two men shouldn't Shaka with the same knife because they're going to push down too hard on the neck. At least that's the fear. Must have ready Adam Shaka to save a to my mother let's say he Shaka to the food pipe lower down on the neck. There's a kind of the mailer and he did the kind of the windpipe above. Oh yes, I wish I was a kind of a matter or the other way around. Either way it'll be a mile away like a street in my house cuz it's on two different heights of the neck. There is a he did in two different heights but it's all one straight line. It's just a diagonal line or it's one kind of a curved cut but it's above and below but of course it's one cut and therefore it's for sure. How would you do it? There was once an ox the issue had been it was cut in two or three places on the neck by the way but certainly going to be no good and possible he took the best stickle of steak from this animal. I'm a little bit scared about him based on what you just did you taught us that this mission had that's talking about if two people are holding a knife and it's talking about two knives and two people separately and that's why he's I'm a little bit scared about him but certainly going to be no good and possible he took the best stickle of steak from this animal. I'm a little bit scared about him based on what you just did you taught us that this mission had that's talking about if two people are holding a knife cuts the lower simon with the correct motion and then he takes the knife out and then afterwards does the upper simon psula. That's that's borrowing underneath but let's say he just puts the knife underneath the skin and then while he's inside the neck under the skin and he both the kind of the then it'll be so my that's we already know this from the mission coming up on Monday's or you should even after cutting the first simon the pushed the knife under the second simon and cut it from the back to the front coming the opposite direction like on his way out but it'll be a shave of but it's certainly going to be no good and possible so why is telling us something that's already that if you're already there inside between the kind of the cut out that's going to be it's possible now because I might have thought if you would only have the mission have a minute where you're coming from below to above where you're pulling the knife out to like over it's not a normal way to above to below meaning where you're coming from the outside in which is really the right way to do a typical shrita. The covid keder shrita then he must have her dummy commercial and rough telling us that's also going to be puzzle. Now, this other halacha that if you're under the skin takas or is going to be kshire. But they rather amri takas or any idea. I don't know what the halacha is. Now you by the bay rab the amri takas or any idea that he doesn't know what the halacha is going to be takas matlas mouth. Let's say it's underneath not the skin, but on a tightly wrapped cloth around the animal's neck or takas summer masuba mouth. Let's say it's very maddy wool that's all kind of clumped over there on the animal's neck. Is that also potentially a problem that like feels like halada of them is taku. I believe it's the mordecai that's gabrat by in shulchan aruch that there's a minic to actually pull off wool and feathers on the neck because of this idea. Shouldn't look at all like a potential halada. By or papa he the mutsima name. Let's say after doing rave you now messed it up by now doing the mutsima name with halada. Meaning you're machlid by going in, but you've already done rave of the shrita mouth. What's the halacha of them is taku. Here is the big important machlokes is Rashi and Tosis. The Rashi says the pshat over here of doing the mutsima name about when you mess up a shrita side is that go back and mess up the prior shrita. That's how Rashi's learning the sugia. Tosis learning that can't be the pshat. It's not talking about the mut basra shaila and this is a different issue over here. But I understood from Rashi that we're going to talk about this multiple times in the masecta. So we'll save this discussion for a future sugia. And we'll stop here and pick it up with the mishna on Sunday's daf.