Chullin Daf 3

All right, Duff Gimel. Sunday's Duff, Baruch Hashem, we made our skull and to cool and trying to figure out how to read the Mishnah properly because the Mishnah's got four distinct lines and we know for sure something's missing there because the first line says Hakol Shachtin, which sounds very like a killer, everybody can shacht. The next line sounds very the avid cuz it says Ushchitas and Kshara. If they shacht, it's going to be kosher, it sounds pretty avid. The third line said a Mishnah of a cotton because we're afraid they're going to mess up the Shchita. The fourth line is that as long as all of them, Vekulan, other people are watching them shacht, it'll be kosher. And the question is who's that last line going on? So, the Gamara ultimately will give us six different Mahalchim how to understand this Mishnah. Yesterday we read the first one from Rava Bar Ulla and the idea was basically we're talking about a guy who's tummy. If a guy is tummy, he wants to shacht coolin, no problem, L'chatchila he can. But if he wants to shacht Kodeshim, even though Shchita is kosher bizarre, but the guy is tummy. And Tices deals with the issue that if he's tummy, how could he possibly be in the Beis Hamikdash? Maybe it's a riot to the Shchitas for being a tummy that it's only a problem to go into the Beis Hamikdash if you're tummy. But none of you became tummy within the Beis Hamikdash. There were other Kintus that Tices has suggested. But either way, the B'dieved part, meaning line number two of our Mishnah, was that this tummy guy who shachted as long as he wasn't metama the animal, it'll be okay. Then we said the Harish I have to be cotton could shacht as long as someone's watching them. But the last line of the Mishnah can't be going back on the Harish I have to be cotton because it should have just said V'im Shachtu, if they shacht. But rather the last line said Vekulan Shishachtu. So, Rava Bar Ulla said so must be that the last line of Vekulan is going back on the tummy who is shachting Kodeshim. And I we could just ask him to make sure that he didn't actually touch the animal and be metama. So, the Gamara said the Laisa Kamadan Shaili, he's no longer around to ask. Okay, now we're picking up 10 lines from the bottom of a base. High tummy ba Mukdashim and Nafka. You're telling me that this Mishnah in Maseches Chulin is the maker that if a tummy person shachts Kodeshim, it's going to be kosher? May also Nafka. It's a Mishnah in Maseches Z'vachim on Duff Lamed Aleph that says Hakol Psulin Shishachtu Shchitasin Kshara. Why? Shishachti Kshara B'zarim B'nashim B'avadim U'bitmayim. Ya Filu B'koche Kodeshim. Like a carbon of they'll also be okay if they're by a tummy again as long as the tummy guy doesn't touch the busser. So why in the world would you be who have nothing need to say the beginning of it tells the same that we already learned and for the sake of cuz here we're talking about the rules for a husband over there in I need to tell a sharp since we're learning the other column coaching me tummy we also learned about the tummy guy. Everybody say my tell you maybe over there in is the real din of a tummy coaching the guy after all it is dealing with coaching over there in but I need to tell me tell me which we're saying is what the first two words of the are talking about when you're coming to cooling even a tummy so tell me tummy but I'm so that'll be that first fine. So according to if a tummy person shafts and is careful not to touch the meat we're not going to have any issue with the meat itself becoming either tummy if you want to eat or even with actual if you but they will still be okay. For high tummy this guy who is tummy did it tummy with what did he become tummy in the tummy if he became tummy through the whole granddaddy of the of a dead person so then what good is it if he's careful not to touch the animal he's touching the animal all you did the knife and if somebody who dies as a result of being stabbed with a sword moving over to so we have who the sword itself is like the dead corpse itself and therefore it's the that the metal sword achieves the same level of tummy as the dead body it momish has the same status there in says it may not create a tummy soil you're not going to need the from the so there may actually be certainly this animal the that metal implement is going to have the same din and therefore so the tummy also sucking the team mostly the busser so if he's tummy but he'll be metuma the knife and the knife is going to be metuma the meat. And for the Gemara, Ella de tuma basar, it's in a hanami. We're not talking about a guy who's tuma only tumas mace. He was only tuma for sheras and therefore he's not metuma the knife and therefore the knife is not metuma the basar. Or if you buy same alum did me the mace, maybe in a hanami we are talking about tumas mace, but Uka gunsha bodak, kramasha kana, bashakhabba, he didn't use a knife. He was by the sharp reed, like a piece of wood, and he saw that there was no the gimas on it. De Tanya, that's going to be okay to shech. Does the brisa says, "Bakol shachtin, bein bitzur, bein bizchus bein mikramasha kana." You don't have to have a metal knife. Tais is bothered that we're talking about kodshim. And don't you need an actual klee to do the shchita? As we brought the raya in zvachim that vayikach es machalas, that Avraham Avinu took a machalas to shech Yitzchak by the akedas Yitzchak. So, that's an issue over here, whether or not you actually need a real kaili for shchitas kodshim, and whether or not kramasha kana will actually suffice for that. But this basically finishes out shot number one in our mishna, the Rabbi Bar Ulla saying that our mishna is talking about the issue of tuma. But now we're going to introduce number two. Abaye amar hakikatanai, this is what the mishna is coming to tell you that "Akoyl shachtin, who's the l'chatchila shacheit, afilu kusi." Even a kusi. Now, kusi often means a but here it really means a literal kusi. Specifically talking about these people that the Melech Ashur sent over to Klal Yisrael and then Hashem had the arayos, these lions came and they became gerim. And there's always a question whether or not they were gerei arayos or they were gerei emes. So, Abaye is understanding our mishna is talking specifically about the kusi that "Akoyl shachtin, vi'afilu kusi." Even a kusi can shech l'chatchila. But "B'medbar amurim, that's because she Yisrael omed al gabav." Davka, if there's a Yid watching to make sure he's doing it properly. "Avli yetzei v'nichnas, if the Yid is only going in and out and not standing there the whole time, no yishchat, he shouldn't shech." But "Im shachat, if he did shech b'di aved, chateich k'zayis basar v'nayis v'layiv, the Yid can cut off a piece of this basar that he shachted and give it to him and say, "Hey, why don't you eat some first?" So, "Im achlo imutla chamas shchitasai, if the kusi eats from it, well, the Kusi's back then on what he perceives as proper halacha. So, if he's going to eat it, then b'di'eved, we're allowed to also eat from it. But lo yochal if the Kusi doesn't want to eat from it, so assur l'echo [laughter] mishchitaso. Now, there's a raglam l'davar that he didn't do a good shchita. So, the b'di'eved, meaning line number two in the Mishna, is talking about the yeitzav nichnas with a Kusi. Now, cheresh shoteh v'katan, d'afילו di'eved nami lo. Why? Because shema yishoo, shema yidisu, shema yachilu. Maybe the cheresh shoteh v'katan might mess up the shchita. Then asks line number four, doesn't seem to read nicely. V'chulan sh'shachtu a chai. All of them that shacht, who's that talking about? Eleima cheresh shoteh v'katan? Well, doesn't flow, cuz al lo kai, we're already talking about them. V'im shachtu m'boyle, it should just say if they shacht. What do you mean the chulan sh'shachtu? Say al a Kusi, must be going back to the first part of the Mishna where you're talking about the Kusi. But oh, amar k'shei Yisrael im l'gabo shachaton afילו achila f'yidim dining there and watching, it's l'chatchila, it wouldn't be b'di'eved. So, l'chatchila mi kasha, we're he resigning to a shver keit. Just going back for a moment where it says that you can test the Kusi to see if he'll eat from it. The Gemara is very m'doyik, say "Aha! Tzayteich k'zayis basar for nice and light. You don't just give him a little bit to taste. You got to give him a whole k'zayis. Now, why is that? So, the Some Sofer makes this ha'ara. The Some Sofer says that even though even a pasul m'kasher, a kol shehu is also going to be assur, al chatzi shiur assur m'na Torah, but perhaps the Kusi doesn't hold of that drasha. The Kusi is maskim that you can't eat an aveila. But the Kusi might not be maskim to the chatzi shiur assur m'na Torah of the drasha of kol cheilev, etc. Interestingly, even though there's an issur of lifnei iver, so you why should you have to test the Kusi at all? Why wouldn't the Kusi be maskim on not being machshil the yad if he didn't shacht properly? And Rashi by the way learns that, cuz according to the Kusi, he learns lifnei iver lo sitei michshol talking literally that don't put a stumbling block in front of a blind person. But he doesn't think that being machshil somebody is a lav of lifnei iver. It might be not a nice thing to do, but we have to be choshesh that the Kusi does not hold of our understanding of lifnei iver lo sitei michshol. All right, so that was chat number two, and that's Abaya. So, Amar Rava, frecht Rava on Abaya, the yeitzav nichnas l'chatchila lo? You're telling me that that's not a l'chatchila dikak approach just to have a yeitzav nichnas, and you're supposed to actually be standing there the whole time. Of hotz na we learned in the mishnah in avodah zarah hamachnis oved k'chavrei b'chanusai. If you leave a in your store alone with the wine, the israelites of a nichnas is mutar. You can still drink the wine afterwards. Clearly yates of a nichnas is a good hashgacha. So why should we have a problem by the shrita? To which the gemara says chasam miktanai miniyach. Does it ever say that you can do this l'chatchila? How miniyach tanai? If he did, which is understood as the eved. It's all b'di eved. So ela what rabba really meant to ask in a baya is the following. May acha. The mishnah in avodah zarah that says ein hashaver tzarich l'hiyos yoshev um'shamer. The shamer does not need to sit there and consistently watch it. Ela af al pi she yates of a nichnas it will be mutar. So you see that yates of a nichnas is l'chatchila. So why shouldn't it also be good enough for a l'chatchila for a shchita? Ela amar rabba. So rabba based on this kasha is going to give us a third malach in the mishnah. Hochi katani. Hakol shochtin l'chatchila. V'afilu kusi. But b'medvar amurim that's k'she israelites have a nichnas. As long as there's a hashgacha happening even if there's only yates of a nichnas. That's still l'chatchila. Aval bo u matza sh'shachan. Let's say the yid came in and found that the had already done the shchita. Nobody watched him. So now at this point chaitach k'zayis basar v'ein lo. You cut off a k'zayis, you give it to the kusi and see if he's going to eat it. Achlei mutar l'chum b'shchitasai. Lo achlei assur l'chum b'shchitasai. So again the first line of the mishnah is talking about where he is a yates of a nichnas then it's l'chatchila. The b'di eved is talking about where you nobody saw the kusi shacht at all. But as long as he eats from it it'll be okay. Then the mishnah said chutz m'cheresh shacht b'katan d'yafil d'eved nami lo. Why? Shema yishu, shema yidrusu, shema yichalidu. These the cheresh shacht b'katan is going to mess up the shchita. V'chulan sh'shachtu l'ai. What about the last line? Eilima cheresh shacht b'katan well that doesn't read because al kol we're already talking about them. Im shachtu miboy lei it should say if they shacht. From the fact that it says v'chulan sounds like it's talking about a different section. So ela a kusi is going back to the first part of the mishnah the way rabba is learning. But hu amar afilu yates of a nichnas shacht b'chatchila. As long as you have that intermittent hashgacha that should be good enough. To which the gemara says you're right, kasha. And now we're up to shot number four. Rav Ashi or Rav Kahana Ketani, this is what the Mishna is talking about. Who's the killer shochet? Via feel Israel mumar. The mumar, the one who does the aveira b'meizid. And Rashi explains, mumar l'mai? What kind of a mumar are we talking about that would allow him to shochet l'chatchila? L'achol n'veilos l'tei'avon. It doesn't mean one who wants to do something l'acharis. He's just a mumar l'tei'avon. Meaning, if he has access to kosher flesh that was kashrut improperly, he'd eat it. But he's just not that makpid. U'k'dei raba, and he's going like Rav Rava. Parenthetically, it's important to note that even though Rava is one of the mande amrei above the six different shochtim here, and the Gamara will be sensitive to that at the end of today's daf. So, amei Rava, Israel mumar, oichel n'veilos l'tei'avon. Turning over to mid base, in such a case, bodik sakin v'nasan lei. You can check the knife out and give it to him to shochet. U'mutar l'achol mishchitaso, and you can eat from the mumar that does the shchita. So, that's why it's l'chatchila. That's our Mishna. Hakol shochtin, even that mumar who does it l'tei'avon. Aval lei bodik v'nasan lei, let's say he didn't check the knife out and give it to him first, and lo yishchut. Then, l'chatchila, you should not have a mumar shochet. However, im shochat, bodik sakin v'lo acharav. If he did shochet without having a prior b'dika, and now we check out the knife afterwards, nimtza s'sakino yafeh, if you find there was no nicks in the knife, mutar l'achol mishchitaso. So, b'dieved, no problem. You can still eat from that shchita. Im lav, oso l'achol mishchitaso. If not, then you can't. It sounds pretty clear from this Gamara that the only reason why you have to shochet afterwards is because you didn't shochet beforehand. But stam as I say, a shochet doesn't need to check his knife afterwards. This is connected to sack of the Rambam that says that you have to check before and afterwards for these p'gimos in the sakin. And they say, "Acheirim want to know where is Rambam getting it from?" But upon him, that's the sheet of the Rambam. So, that is Rav Ashi's fourth shot. We're talking about the mumar and the issue is whether or not his knife was checked. Chutz m'cheirsh shoteh v'katan, daf yomi d'ieved nami lo. Why? Shema yishmei shema yidrushu shema yachlidu. V'chulahu shochtu aharei, what about the last line that all of them that shochtu, it's going to be kosher? Who's he talking about? Y'lei m'cheirsh shoteh v'katan. We're already talking about them. Al akai, im shochtu m'bodek, instead of the chulahu, ela Israel mumar, must be talking about Rav Ashi's understanding that the beginning of the Mishna is talking about the Israel mumar. Na'id u'badak sakin v'nasan lei, if he's already checked out the knife, horama shochat m'chatchila, so it doesn't make any sense to say that you have to be mashgiach him and then it'll be be the ever okay. Ella the light badak must be that you didn't check out the knife. But either if the knife is still around live the K hashtag check out the knife now to see if it has free of any of these be the lace of sucking if there is no knife you can check here right now I say my hobby. What good is it going to help if somebody else watches in his mashgiach the actual doing the second since this knife was never checked before and now it's not longer around afterwards we have to be sure that maybe it was a second to which the mask in your right kasha and now we're up to the fifth shot of the mission Ravina katana this is what the mission is talking about right now a coil shakedown all people who are they just came out of school they can and that's a fish in and even though they don't have any real world experience because they haven't done it but they got their degree and that is allowed to check even but by my when we saying that this is allowed to check that's what he had to say and only did he know he can even say you see how the real understanding of something is when you can explain it to someone else so then he could check I will she had to say if he doesn't know well to say it over low you should he should not check if he did check but I can I say now we can give him a beginning afterwards in the name of the but in love if he doesn't know the answers to the beginning you give him after you did the also say you are not allowed to eat from that so that is we're talking about the guy who's just graduated from college he is allowed to check and if he didn't if you give him a beginning after the fact who's the cotton if you had to give him why well again the coolest what's that going on well we're already talking about them we must be talking about version of the beginning of the mission that's talking about the one who is a mumcha. So, but by can I say saggy? Just give him a fair now. So, we already know. So, why would I need to have the oversight and someone watching? But tomorrow says the latest come on the libdec he's not here anymore to give him a vagina. So, if there was somebody else who was watching him do it and it seemed okay to the person who was being much gear then we're going to be okay. The eco damry. Now we're going to say another lotion of what Ravina had said which is going to be our sixth shot in the mission. The Ravina amora Katani Kalshak Kamuk Zakin Shakin. All people who have experienced and are Muk to be a Shakit. They don't need to have any kind of supervision. They are going to have a Shrita. Muk Zakin Alapisha Muk. Even though we don't know that they know everything. Just the very fact that they are Muk to be a Shakit. But may the amorum that Shakit Alaf Shaim Shas Pamin Volain this Alif. They Shakit a few times in front of us and they did not faint. So, those are the kind of people that they could Shakit Alaf without anybody watching over their shoulder. Alaf Shakit Alaf Shaim Shas Pamin. If they did not do this Lo Yish Shaim Alif. So, we don't want them to Shakit because who knows maybe they'll pass out and then it could be a problem of either passing the Shrita or maybe they won't know that they messed up. Now Shakit Alaf Shaim Shaim Alaf. Let's say the Shakit Shakit without anybody watching and then afterwards he says listen guys I was totally conscious the whole time I did not faint. Then the average Shita that's how this second version of Ravina shot number six reads our mission. But Shaita Alaf Shaim why should we issue Yachli Shaim the cool Shakit Alaf what's that last line going to be going on? My Shaita Alaf we're already talking about them Alakai. The Shakit Alaf Shaim Muk. We're talking about that cool is going back on the Shakit the inexperienced Shakit. I am really saggy. So, what's the point of having the oversight of somebody watching them if they said that they did not pass out? That's going to be good enough. Then for the latest come on the way. Okay, so that's our sixth shot in but now we got to figure out why each one didn't like the other one. Ravina Bar Ulaka by Ravashi Lo Amri. So, Ravina who talked about the Muk and Ravina Bar who said it was about the they didn't like the question the cool because that last line of the Mishnah, for Kulan didn't seem to go smoothly and we applied the Kusha on all of them. So that's why those three were not ideal. But the tummy person because if you're going to say this is the Iker place and it's more they didn't like that because it makes more sense to talk about Godjim. And in the Iker location and here we're only mentioning Godjim I did the tummy tummy and therefore tummy We didn't really need to have this of the tummy shefting at all. We're only saying this for people who are eating the they're not so and love to make it's an easy way out cuz if you don't hold it has the same status we don't have to worry about that level of and about the whole business because in she ain't according to the first version of Ravina that says that the meaning the graduate from school he can sheft for people who had no experience should not. Right so uh our moment in hand. So anybody who is an experienced is automatically going to be a bucky in the hill and you don't have to give him a fire. There is a over here that is dealt with that should not be strong enough to go connected to the sir of this and one way to get out of this by simply saying that it's beyond now beyond of course isn't enough by itself to be an because just because of things beyond you still have to know what to do. So beyond needs to as well as needs beyond. This is also to the other that how does he be of an saying that he properly when there was nobody else there to watch him also going to connect it to the sir of the animal and that's really in the beginning of getting deals with this and says well because of beyond. I did see a from the which to me makes a lot of sense. The says the only time won't work connected when something is is if you took away the aiders, would be vadayosa. But here, if you took away the aiders, I'm still left with an animal that's throat was cut. I just want to know was it a kosher shrita or was it not a kosher shrita? Say yes, you tell me it's coming from a issur, it's true, but it's not the same kind of issur that would upend an animal being certain. And it would also be the gate to this right mid-season shrita Okay, but finishing off over here, in only the experienced can do it but if he's not experienced, he can't do it. The reason they didn't like that one is cuz they don't want people passing out and fainting. Now, Rav and Ravashi who each had the problem of the of that coolan at the end of the Mishnah, Rav because Rav himself asked on from the by the azar. And because of the shimer by the wine, the guy wasn't touching the wine when the heat went out, but here the is touching the animal when the shimer's being and Ravashi because he holds that are brayam. And they can't >> [laughter] >> shat. So the whole thing doesn't even start according to Ravashi. And we're talking about the because Rav doesn't hold of the whole that a mummer could ever shat in the first place. So Rav my time Ravashi why doesn't Rav want to say Ravashi's that you can be the sakin for that and let him do it. Rav was only going he himself doesn't hold we're talking about but rather we're talking about the mummer just like Ravashi. And this is where we're going to call it and pick it up with the two dots tomorrow.