Chullin Daf 17

All right, daf, you're done. Sunday's daf. Let's pick it up from the two dots on tes ayin in bet beis. Going on this kind of cryptic glosson that the Mishnah had of hakol shochtin, l'olam shochtin, and bakol shochtin. Now the Gemara's going to go through each one of these things what it meant. Hakol shochtin, which we might think means what kinds of people can shecht, but no, we covered that already. So that's not what this tanna needs to tell us. It rather means hakol bishchita, all kinds of creatures are shayeich to shchita. And what are we coming to include? V'afilu ayif, even though the Torah doesn't specifically speak to shchita by ayif, it's either b'chlall the drasha or it is a halacha l'Moshe miSinai. And then the next line in the Mishnah said l'olam shoch, always you do shecht. Well, that kind of implies that there was a time when we didn't shecht. So man tanna, who is the tanna that learned this in our Mishnah that there's a chiddush in saying l'olam shochtin? Because the tanna in the pasuk says, these are the difficult psukim in perek beis in Devarim, where the pasuk says ki yarchiach Hashem Elokecha es g'vulcha ka'asher diber lach. When Hashem is going to broaden your g'vulem, your boundaries, ka'asher diber lach, like he said, and then the follow up is v'amarta ochla basar v'gam. And you, the Yidden, would say, I want to eat the meat. So Rebbi Shimon Well, amar lei bo kasuv, hatar l'heim basar ta'avah. What's the Torah saying over here? That you should eat the meat, cuz now you're allowed to eat meat for the sake of meat as opposed to for korbanos. As he explains, sheb'tchila ne'esar l'heim basar ta'avah. Kol zman they were by the Mishkan, you couldn't have basar ta'avah. You couldn't just shecht the cow and make a barbecue. It doesn't mean you have to be a vegetarian, but it does mean that the only meat you can eat is from a korban of a shlamim, where you brought it as kodshim. And you can't just simply have basar ta'avah. And the reason is because you're in close proximity to the Mishkan, b'zayin to the Mishkan for you to have your own basar ta'avah. But mi'she'nichnasu l'aretz, once they came to Eretz Yisrael, hutar l'heim basar ta'avah. You didn't only have to bring korbanos to eat flayshiks, but rather you can now eat basar ta'avah. That is Rebbi Shmuel's halacha. So now comes Rabba and says, based on this idea of Rebbi Shmuel, v'achshav shegolem, now once the Yidden are no longer in Eretz Yisrael, yochal ya'azru l'eiser in arishon, maybe it'll go back to the way it was beforehand, where you're not allowed to eat basar ta'avah. V'kacha ninu, and that's the reason that our Mishnah here would say l'olam shochtin, that you always shecht, you're always allowed to do the shchita, it's a kula. You're always allowed to have basar ta'avah even in golus. That's the chiddush of the Torah. But there really was an issur of basar ta'avah according to Rashi. It's from the pasuk of lo pesach oil moed lo yoviu, which TaZ says doesn't like because that pasuk's talking about kodshim. TaZ says just simply says from the fact that there was a heter, that implies that there was once an issur. According to Panim that is Rabba's idea. Frecht Rebbi Yosi. Maskif Rebbi Yosi. Hailo oilam shachtin. This expression that our Mishnah uses of oilam shachtin is lo chairen not accurate because oilam shachtin will oilam and boil it. What would be Rebbi Shmuel's point according to what Rabba was saying is that you're allowed to shecht for the purpose of eating. It's not about the shechita, it's about the achila. So frecht Rebbi Yosi, I don't like the way you want to read our Mishnah, Rabba, because then it should have been saying lo oilam shachtin oilam and not just lo oilam shachtin. And I got a saw in the Mesifta Gemara brings from the Imrei Dovid a nice chat on what the machlokes might be between Rebbi Yosi and Rabba. The reason why I'm particularly excited about this is because assuming this is the Imrei Dovid who I think it is, that's Rebbi Dovid Schick, the first cousin of the Maram Schick, who's also my mother's great grandfather. But since I'm on the road and I don't have access to my copy of Imrei Dovid at home, I can't verify. But either way, it's a nice chat. The Imrei Dovid explains that this that Rebbi Yosi has a kasha on Rabba that the Mishnah should have said shachtin oilam and boil it. Maybe that guf is what they're arguing about. Because according to Rebbi Yosi, the whole point of what Rebbi Shmuel is saying is that you're not allowed to eat the basar ta'avah. So this kind of fleishig is not something you should consume. Kol man that the Mishkan is there, it's bizayon for you not to have only kodshim because you have access to the Mishkan. So you should not eat basar ta'avah. But according to the Imrei Dovid, maybe what Rabba is saying is that the avla is not the achila at all. It's the actual killing of the animal. And he brings the moshel that in the Dor Hamabul, they were not allowed to shecht meat. Everybody was vegetarians back then. It was assur to eat meat. And the explanation that he gives is because the Dor Hamabul where Hashem knew that these people were not going to reach a potential shleimus because they were all going to be killed out by the mabul. So they had no shleita over the animal kingdom that was beneath them. Because they weren't fulfilling their own potential. So they had no right now to kill an animal. But once the mabul happened and there was a new day in the world and people were able to now achieve a higher madregah. So okay, so now you have a heter to kill animals. In the same way the Dor Hamidbar, yes, they may have been the Dor De'ah in the Midbar, but still they were going to make it to Eretz Yisrael. So they could never reach a certain level of potential um may love they may have also lost the ability to kill animals. So it's about the killing, not about the achila. And even though we lamaisa are in galus, but still there's a bachina of us reaching our shleimus within the galus and therefore we're still allowed to kill animals. Anyway, it's that was an interesting way to look at the machlokes whether or not it's about the killing or about the eating. But that's only kasha number one that Rebbe Yosef asks on Rabba. The other kasha Rebbe Yosef asks on Rabba is why mecar my time itzer, what's the reason why in the midbar they weren't allowed to shecht for basar taiva? Mishum the karvei lamishkan cuz it was so close to the mishkan so they could easily shecht korbanos. Ulbasif my time itzer and why did it become mutar once they went to Eretz Yisrael? Because they have a marachegim in mishkan. They're no longer so close in proximity to the ability to bring korbanos. They're all over Eretz Yisrael now. Moving over to Talmud Aleph, the kasha again hashda frechta gamara or Rebbe Yosef rather, now once we're in galus and we left Eretz Yisrael, it's certainly harder to bring korbanos and therefore the achilu utzvei and that should be more of a reason to be allowed to have basar taiva cuz you can't now bring korbanos. Of course Tosafos points out that based on the machlokes in Makos, if you hold that the kedusha lost lavai does not go away and therefore there's a heter bamos. So now lamaisa we do have the opportunity to bring korbanos. Nachman gives suggested turitzim, but lamaisa the logic doesn't seem to hold that there should be an issur for basar taiva as a hava mina to need a pasuk to tell me that it's mutar. So based on these kashas of lamar of Rebbe Yosef, I argue and I say you know who the taana of the mishna is? It's not Rebbe Yishmael but rather it's Rebbe Akiva. He Who's Rebbe Akiva? The Tanya ki achik mimakom asher yivchar Hashem Elokecha lashum shmo sham. This is the following pasuk, pasuk chof aleph. Zeh zivchei todah umin karacho umin tzaino. That you should shecht from your bakar and your tzain. So for Rebbe Akiva, Akiva imer lei bo kasuv el leser lahen basar nachira. This is not a heter that like Rebbe Yishmael said now you can have basar taiva. Fakair, it's an issur that you can no longer do what you used to be able to do. What could you used to do? You used to be able to kill animals and eat them with nachira. Nachira is some kind of ripping out its simanim. So shaila whether or not you have to rip out the simanim or maybe you can even just strangle the animal. Slach says you have to actually cut out the simanim. The Maloy Haroyim argues and says no, it doesn't matter how you kill it. One thing's for sure, it's not shrita. This musak of nechirah. So what Rebbe Akiva is doing is Rebbe Akiva is saying, "Until you came into Eretz Yisrael, you were allowed to eat just al yedei nechirah in the midbar." But we shouldn't have to worry national and basar nechirah. Now as Rebbe Akiva says, "If actually shigul, now that you have left Eretz Yisrael, you are allowed to have the original Maybe you can go back to the original hetter, a cooler, and now you're allowed to once again just do nechirah and eat animals." Akasha Rebbe Akiva, that's why the Torah says, "This is a vach temeima karov kol metzaincha." And that's why this tanna, meaning Rebbe Akiva, he would say lo al meshechin you always have to shecht. Not a cooler that you can get away with nechirah, but a chomerah that you actually have to shecht. Now Rebbe Akiva Rebbe Akiva Rebbe Akiva said there was no basar taiva at all, it's a klal. There was never an issur at all with basar taiva, even in the midbar they didn't eat basar taiva according to Rebbe Akiva. But according to Rebbe Akiva basar nechirah is called there was never hetter of nechirah according to Rebbe Akiva. You always had to shecht when you did a shrita. Tosafos actually over here wants to know, "How do you know there's a machlokes at all? Maybe they just darshan things differently. Why are we pitting one against the other?" But as Tosafos points out, it wouldn't make sense to say that according to Rebbe Akiva, if you're going to assur basar taiva, then when are you ever being matter al yedei nechirah? Because we know you can't do nechirah with kodshim. So when would it even be nagaya? Now Rebbe Akiva has a couple of kashas here. Bishlam Rebbe Yishmael, hayo deksiv "Veshachat es habakar." The Torah says that you have to shecht this bakar when they're still in the midbar. So that works nicely with Rebbe Yishmael that they did shrita. But Rebbe Akiva, ma veshachat? Because according to Rebbe Akiva they weren't doing shrita, they were doing nechirah. Which the Gemara says no, Rebbe Akiva would also be maskim kodshim shaini. Of course according to Rebbe Akiva you're still doing shrita by kodshim as we just spoke out from that Tosafos. Now bishlam Rebbe Yishmael who holds that they were assur basar taiva in the midbar, hayo deksiv "Es tzain ubaqar yishachet lahem." That you have to do a shrita in the midbar. Rebbe Akiva, ma hatzain ubaqar yishachet lahem? Laklarei en nacher lemebolah. You're just doing nechirah, you're not doing actual shrita according to Rebbe Akiva. And it's not talking about the kodshim. Zog the Gemara, "Nechirah shel hen zu hi shitasan." Nechirah beshas midbar was a shrita. And this is nagaya to all the times whenever you have like the arifos by nigruf shitasan, or melika, which is the big one that Rebbe Akiva talks about in the As DeRayisa. The melika applies to shrita. 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But now you've come into Israel. So, are they even allowed to continue to eat it cuz now you're in Israel? And the prophet says it's not a legal way to kill animals anymore. Can I use the header because I killed it because I was still in the midbar. Now, this is what he says over here on like the sixth line. Learn and get it should be another element of the physical world over. This is a historical context that is not in the world of Mesa. So, this is what he says. This is what Rashi says over here. The rush you don't think this is anything? Whenever you have an issue and now you want to know if the header existed prior to the issue, can I continue to extend the header? Like for example, let's say I make a header I'm not going to eat this Thursday this hamburger. But then I start eating the hamburger on Wednesday and I didn't finish it. So, half my hamburger now still mother. Why can't I now continue to eat it on Thursday? Let's say business is going to ask her you know some cheese from them. But I have cheese already in my fridge. Maybe it's just still be mother. So, the rush argues with Rashi and says it is actually very amazing. So, we can get that this is a very unique child because over in the midbar in the year of its So, you had a once you went into Israel it's no longer classified as a anymore. So, you can't now use that header anymore. There is also a that passes that if a person is eating meat on of and now I want to continue eating some of that same into the bulk the leftovers of my meal might be mother to eat based on this in the same way there's a doesn't seem to love it but he says you don't feel against people who are taking advantage of the cool. Anyway, there seems to be a lot of the Torah on this concept. Seems like a fascinating thing to think about but we're going to have to move on. So, now the wants to know a technical question on this Amos. When were you asking the people in you tell me about the seven years that the actually capturing Israel that's when you want to know can I eat this Well, how should I tell me they're allowed to eat non kosher food during that time amazingly. How's that possible? Who bought them to you're allowed to eat what the had in their home. And if that doesn't blow your mind enough, how about this? The Rabbi costly the they can even eat the pig meat the bacon double cheeseburger. That's what's mutar to eat. That's you're asking me buster nakira me boy. Of course it would be kosher you buster nakira during wartime. So Mar says, "Oh no, el akhar mikhan. We're talking about your buster nakira that somehow has survived seven years of I guess being beef jerky or something that now you want to eat it seven years after they've now been kover the land." Then I take out my lunch box and say, "Oh, here's some buster nakira from back when I was in the midbar. Can I eat that?" Or the guy is saying el al mishum shishah kvasim, maybe this is during the first seven years, but ki ishtari lehu, even though the not kosher food was mutar to them during that time, but shol al shol dikhvon, that was only what they got from the guy. Did who? Their own not kosher food lo ishtari, that wouldn't be allowed. And therefore teiku, we bligh with a shailah. Now we get into knives. Amar Rava, this is actually the third of those three cryptic lines from our Mishnah. Shanisah kol shochtin, we learned about that all things are shochtin, we said if I say le oilam shochtin, in all times there's shchitah, meaning after there after there was a galus with Rabbi Eliezer, Rabbi Akiva, Rabbi Shmuel. Ba kol shochtin, mai mishaneh seli. What does it mean with you can shochet with anything? Now the kitzim you want to suggest it means ben metzor, ben metzora, ben krum, ish ilkanah, all these different kinds of things as your knife. Well, how dami de hanoktani? The Mishnah should be like the other parts in that were just preceded by it in the Mishnah, meaning it has to be similar. Ee hanokh be shochtin, had those first two lines been about the person or the things you do shchitah with and hi nami be shochtin, the last thing could also be about who shochets. But vi hanokh ben ish shochtin, about the things that are ge shochtin, hi nami ben ish shochtin, the last statement should also be about things that are ge shochtin. And therefore, you can't talk to me about the kinds of things you do shchitah with, because the first two lines in the Mishnah talk about the things that were ge shochtin, meaning the meat. But the last line's going to be talking about the kind of knife they're using that would make the Mishnah not work. Ela, what's the chat in the last line of the Mishnah of ba kol shochtin? Ha kol shochtin in the first line of the Mishnah that anybody can shochet is a repeat of what it says in the beginning of the mesechta, khadal asui ekusi, one time it'll be for the kusi and khadal asui Yisrael mumar. Ela oilam shochtin in the next line of the Mishnah that you're always allowed to shochet, that's talking about ben bayom, ben balailah, ben berishagak, ben berishasvina, you can shochet at different times or different locations. And you don't have to worry about the person checking for a blade is there. And by coil shaiton, the third line of that we can check with anything, that's telling us we're re-engineering what the dish of all three lines of mission is based on this last question. We talk about the questions of the knives. Now, let's really get into that with my goal cut your over there. Our mission said you can check with any kind of sharp blade as long as it doesn't have the ridges like the saw and the sickle. A void of shmuel, what did he used to do? He would break knives. He would break knives. He would break knives. He would make sulam in knives by being pagan and then he would send them off to the different luminaries of Israel to give a sock on the knives. Show away my gear is shiny. The tummy sent back a rule. Okay, enough of you sending us knives. We can just give you a rule. If it looks like a saw, like a my gear, it will be a problem. And what this means when it says like a saw is that the actual indentation is not a one-sided indentation but it's a two-sided indentation. What that means is imagine a V shape. So, a V shape has two points at the top of the V at each respective top. It's not a gradual angle but it's a dip. So, it essentially gives you two different sharp points to rip and do an akira instead of the proper shrita. Turn around turning every time it bends. Second, she used to pop a key massage but it has lots of different notches on it. She don't give my gear away. You look at like a saw meaning it's not going to be kosher for shrita. We shouldn't be able to pick him up but if it only has one little nick in it, then we look at what kind of a nick it is. If it's a gear is it's if it actually wraps the fingernail that when you go when you when you scrape over that little notch you feel it because it has that V shape so your finger goes into it then it's going to be possible. If it's as we'll see soon they'll be okay. Now, that's and we'll see what we'll be able to do. A gear is it's a V shape so it has two different sharp edges on it. So, it has more of it has one sharp edge on it and I'm sure whatever you're using has that kind of picture where there's let's say imagine you had a nick in it but you've kind of smoothed out one of the sides of the nick so it's now a gradual process until you get to like a one sharp edge. But rather said in his share that when he gives guys sometimes he likes to throw at them to tell to explain the different gears by gears and gray gears. A gear is being this kind of a in a knife by gears is of course a girl when she when she becomes a good day and gray gears is the share for L'Chashavah that would pass or kaylim make them no longer tumah or or chaitza whatever. It was just kind of a cute little agarus bagarus Gregaris. My sh'no mish'te ruchais, what's the difference if it has a notch on both sides that will pass or because we assume d'morsha kama machlish, the first point kind of weakens the hide. Umorsha basra boza, and the second little cut meaning the other side of that V if you will will now tear the simanim of the animal. So how is it better when it's only one side? Mayro achas nami, churfah d'sakina machlish, the sharpness of the knife is what's weakens the flesh. Morsha boza, and then that one singular point that's what's going to do the akirah. To which the Gemara says no, k'ko im arasha d'sakina, we're talking about where that actual one single notch is at the top of the knife. But everywhere else it's not going to be a problem because by the time you get to that point you've already done a kasher sh'chitah. But if you say Gemara, so if say key olah machlisha, l'maisa when you stick it in when you go one direction you're going to weaken the flesh. But key olah boza, when you pull it back the other side now that little tear of that notch is going to rip the simanim. So you're still going to have the same problem. So Gemara no, because we're talking about k'gadol v'chayvi, you only went in one direction. So you don't have that back and forth motion so you never have that little nick affecting the sh'chitah. Omar Rava Shmuel Sh'mita b'sakina there are three rules when it comes to knives. Number one, agarus, that you you got to make sure that when you're doing your fingernail that agarus if your fingernail gets caught on this little nick like yish'chit v'mshachat sh'chitah p'sulah, that's makid. Misoch sachas, if it's we said like one sided so it doesn't really hold your fingernail in place. Lo yish'chit b'lo zachila but im shachat sh'chitah k'sheirah. Ailov a year b'sakina, let's say there's just this kind of a smoothed out like rounded edge of the knife. Shachat b'lo zachila, that's actually not going to be a problem at all because it's still smooth. Omar Lay, Ravuna b'reisha d'Nachum bar Avashi. Amar l'mish'mei d'Rav Omar Misoch Sachas p'sulah. He said it's going to be p'sul. Amar l'ahu Omar Misoch Sachas k'sheirah, we have another memory that says Misoch Sachas k'sheirah l'churtza d'steira. Which one is it? What's the halacha of Misoch Sachas? Like kasha, kancha hilchasa v'chayvi, when you go in both directions, kancha hilchasa v'chayvi or you only went in one direction. Same thing as we said beforehand. Amar l'ahu Rava b'reisha d'Avila bar Avashi, damy l'sasuah my, let's say the knife is not full of nicks but rather it has like kind of a bumpy texture to it. Whatever the mitzius is is over here, it's smooth, but smooth with some sort of bumps. I'm going to lay no problem. Who's going to give us this meat so we can eat it? In other words, there's nothing wrong with that kosher. It's fine kosher of flesh. It's kosher of meat. It's all good. How do I know that I have to check a knife? And when we're saying here checking a knife, we're talking about before the shrita. And the more it's ultimately going to say this is not kosher. So didn't want to but what's the reason why you have to check the knife before? And why can't I just check it afterwards? Cuz if you do beforehand, you'll make sure to check. Afterwards, you're going to be tired. There's blood flying all over the place. You're not going to do a good job. forget. So we very much want you to check before you do it. So here the more seems to know give me a minute. Interestingly, we even just bring a little bit more. It's not even kosher. Cuz the kosher says with this. We have Shalom said you should check with this. Like he's pointing to a specific knife that he used for shrita. It must be cuz this knife is special because it was probably checked. Obviously, you have to check a knife if you're going to check. It's my opinion that you should have a kosher knife. Give me the knock of treif. If you have a nick on it, it's going to ruin your shrita. So first you need to do by the gate. So the more it's not going to let me clarify the question. How do I know that I can't just check it myself with like my own medicine? But I'd rather have to show it to the doctor. First of all, why do I have to show it to the doctor? Well, you only do it for the covenant of the doctor. Cuz I don't really need to covenant of the doctor. Cuz I don't really need to I'm really trustworthy to say that it was checked properly. Towards the more it says you're right. The cross but the idea of the doctor you have to check it by showing it to a doctor. However, in Israel, but they would show the knife by holding it up to the sun either by having the sun illuminate it or they would hold it up so this way a shadow would be cast down and they could inspect the shadow to see there was no nicks on the shadow. But in the old days, they put a drop of water to see if the water go straight down the edge or would it get hung up on a nick on it? He would check it with the tip of his tongue running it up the blade. He would put a strand of hair to see if it would split the hair on there or get caught along a nick. A knife cuts meat. Therefore, you should use meat meaning your flesh, to check it. And that's why you use your fingertip to check the knife. The knife needs to be on the skin of your finger and your fingernail, and let's read the parentheses here. And all And all three sides of the blade, meaning the two flat parts of the sides of the blade. I'm going to have you know I want to learn three different areas over here. You're doing it on your skin and on your nail, and you're looking at all three sides of the blade, meaning the two sides and the sharp edge. When Rashi heard this, he said to Ravina, "I did say you need to do it on your finger and your fingernail, but I didn't say you have to do it on all three sides of the knife." He could be on the same side. This was the conversation. I did say you have to check all three sides of the knife, but I didn't say Ravina. Ravina I used to second the Ravina and brought the knife to Ravina to check it out. Ravina you check it out. Ravina the Ravina he took it out with his finger and his fingernail and all three sides of the knife. The hand on the corner and also this is the kind of he would do. No, I took it out you do need to use your fingertip and your fingernail, but I didn't say you have to do the sides of the knife. I'll bring you a riot because Ravina Ravina if you make the knife white hot or red hot, the knife with that we already learned this tomorrow. It's going to be a kosher knife. We don't assume that it got burned to death, but you actually did a proper knife. Why? Because the knife sharpness precedes the heat because as soon as you slice with the knife, the skin separates and it chefs. But the knife sharpness precedes the heat because as soon as you slice with the knife, the skin separates and it chefs. But the knife sharpness precedes the heat because as soon as you slice with the knife, the skin separates and it chefs. The opening where the separates the skin separates the actual neck does not touch the sides of the knife. And therefore even if there's nicks potentially on the flat parts of the sides of the knife, it's never going to touch the neck and therefore we have nothing to worry about and it will still be kosher. We'll stop here and pick it up from Amora Buna next time.