Chullin Daf 124

All right, daf kuf dalid, Tuesday's daf. We're working through the Mishnah here in Kaylim, discussing the idea of tearing a beged that makes it no longer tamei. Reish Lakish introduces an idea that leather will be different because according to Reish Lakish, the connection that leather has is still going to make it that's intact enough to remain tamei. And now we're going to pick it up like a dozen lines from the bottom of kuf kaf gimmel amud beis. Most of Rebbe Yirmiya, Rebbe Yirmiya asks from our Mishnah that says bitairo vetameia bedako begaso lishatiach if you're doing it because you want to use the hide as some kind of a spread or carpet or some kind of blanket or whatever it is kedei achiza. Until you have a piece that you can grab, it will still be metamei. But hal yashar michdei achiza star. But frechta gemara via mai lema cholem according to you Reish Lakish that if the connection is strong because it's leather, it's oir, it should stay tamei even after this point, beyond kedei achiza. So how do you understand this Reish Lakish? So tir gemara be oven reishan reishan aisan eepo. Every additional cutting of that oir beyond the kedei achiza blais like a new chefshet. And it's as if it's completely disconnected from the basar and therefore it's not going to become tamei. So it's different when you're flaying oir off the basar versus taking an existing leather beged and tearing it. Most of Rebbe Yaisa, let's ask from Reish Lakish for our Mishnah that oir shall go be at tzavar. That softer, looser skin that's on the neck. Rebbe Yechana ben Nuri omer in a chiver. But am I acholem bakai? Since the hide on that neck is not yet been taken off, lecher it's a strong connection according to Reish Lakish and therefore it should be considered like it's much over and should be still tamei. But according to Rebbe Yechana ben Nuri, it's not. So am I le abaya im a seifa? Look at the end of the Mishnah that says vachachamim omerim chiver. So just like the Mishnah bringing Rebbe Yechana ben Nuri is like a kasha on Reish Lakish. Lecher the chachamim are a raya to Reish Lakish. As elam abaya, beshaim osei lematay meilav kemifligi. The whole machlokes between Rebbe Yechana ben Nuri and the chachamim is about that kind of a shaimer, meaning that skin that's going to come off on its own. That's where you have a machlokes because of the future circumstance of it coming off. So mar sover chavi shaimer or mar sover lo yavi shaimer. But in the chanam Rebbe Yechana ben Nuri himself is not a kasha on Reish Lakish because the case of this skin on the tzavar is different. Most of Rebbe Yermiya from the Mishna in the fifth perek of Kaylim about a tanur she nitma. Let's say you have an oven that became tamei. And the tanur is the hottest part of the multiple sections of an oven. So, ketsad metaharin osei? How do you make it tahor? Because the metzius was these things were movable, but they were plastered around the outside in order to make it airtight. So, the Mishna says, "Chelko lishlosha." You're breaking it into at least three different parts. Two wouldn't be enough cuz one of them would be a raven and it'll be tamei. But three makes it no longer a raven and it'll be tahor. V'gores atzveila. You scrape away the plaster from the outer walls moving over to Amud Aleph ad she hei ba'aretz until you go all the way down to the ground where that plaster meets the earth. So, Rebbe Meir omer, "Ein tzarich l'gores atzveila." You don't need to scrape away the plaster. "V'lo ad she hei ba'aretz." Ela, what do you need to do is look for Meir. "Mimateh mibifnim me'arba'ah t'fachim." As long as you make it smaller than less than four t'fachim, that will be enough cuz then you no longer have the shiur that would make it big enough to be tamei. But what do you see? "Kima'at l'me'arba'ah me'utzei do eisah." Once it gets that small, it will no longer be tamei even though you didn't take away that plaster. But Ammi, according to Resh Lakish's svara l'ma'an chalom v'kayi, there's still a strong connection just like he illustrated by the leather and therefore it should stay tamei. So, you see Ammi is connected to Resh Lakish. Ammi says to Rava, "Well, I can ask you the same thing v'Ammi me'Rabbanan." How about from that same Mishna where the Rabbanan say, "Gores atzveila ad she ba'aretz." According to the Rabbanan, connected to Meir, that seems like to be a raya for Resh Lakish. Ammi says to Rava, "How do you understand the Mishna? Achicha amar, 'Tanur she nitma ketsad metaharin osei divrei Chelko lishlosha.'" Both for Meir and the Rabbanan are going to be maskim if you break into three parts. "V'gores atzveila." You take away the plaster from the outside ad she ba'aretz. That will certainly make it tahor. "And v'harei zeh shelo ya'avei tanur l'yedei tum'ah." And if you want to make sure that your oven is never going to become tamei, "Ketsad osei? Chelko lishlosha." Break it into three different parts. "V'gores atzveila ad she ba'aretz." Rebbe Meir omer, "Ein tzarich l'gores atzveila v'lo ad she ba'aretz." You don't need to do that. "Ela mimateh mibifnim me'arba'ah t'fachim." Just make it smaller than four t'fachim. So, Rebbe Meir is just saying you don't need as much to prevent it from becoming tamei in the first place. But removing existing tum'ah is going to require more. You got to scrape off all that plaster. Preventing does not. So, Rebbe Meir mask him that if it was already tumah, then you got to completely remove the plaster, otherwise it'll prevent the oven from becoming tahor. Since, like Resh Lakish says, the plaster binds it together. The only machlokes is preventing it from becoming tumah in the first place. Say Reb Chanina Reb Resh Lakish is not going to be shver from Reb Meir. Omar Mar, more about these ovens. Cheil k'dei shlishi, you're breaking into three parts, but if you break it into two parts, since one of those parts is going to be the roiv, it'll still stay tumah. Aiv Reb Meir menu, how do you reconcile this with the other mishna in the fifth perek of Keilim? Tanur t'rei lasei arba, if it was originally four t'fachim, it'll become shaiach for tumah. The shiyur arba, and if it's remaining portion must be also four t'fachim, therefore it'll also become tumah. Divrei Reb Meir v'chachamim omrim b'med d'var mamur, and that's only going to be b'gadol. That big of an oven b'katan, but a small oven, the kind of oven Rashi says the kids would play with, t'rei lasei kol shehu, any amount is going to be enough to make it tumah. We should take marmeladae, because now it's a full kli. But shiyur, its remaining piece is going to be b'rubai. Now, just clarify, v'kama kol shehu, any amount? Omar Rebbi Yana'i t'efach. Sh'kein aitzim t'nurin b'nai t'fachim. The little kids ovens would be a t'efach tall. Okay, fine. But now time of the mishna is telling us that it's going to retain its tumah d'ika shiyur arba, cuz it's four t'fachim tall. But halacha shiyur arba, let's say it wasn't, tahor. But the mishna earlier said that if the piece has a roiv of the oven, it will be tumah even if it's less than four t'fachim. So, l'chayil, there's a stirah minei u'veinei these two mishnayos. And for the gemara, Amri hasam d'tzalke mitzlach. The mishna that says that needs to be less than four t'fachim to be tahor, that's when you split it horizontally. But hacha d'avdei gistra. But the mishna that says that the pieces can't be a roiv is talking about where you split it vertically. And the thinking is cuz when you break it horizontally, it will never sit on the ground properly cuz of the gravity don't even bottom. But vertically, it potentially could still sit on the ground properly and therefore retain its heat inside. Omar Mar, shiyur b'rubai. The leftover part of this broken oven has to be roiv of the oven. And the gemara is assuming we're talking even about that small little baby oven that only needs to be a t'efach tall. So, if we're talking about rubai d't'efach, what my chosai, what can you possibly do with an oven that's only roiv of one t'efach? So, Omar Reb Abba'ya, shiyurei gadol b'rubai. We're talking about a bigger oven where it's roiv stays tumah, but anachna mi, less than that, the tumah is going to go away. Aiv will report on our board, but the Hachamim in the Mishna say it has to be four tefachim, which means that even by a gadol, the Hachamim are maskim with Rav Meir both regarding the original height and its shiur. And therefore, if it's less than four tefachim, even if it's the rov, it should still be tahor. So, like kasha, Habat Tanur bar Tisha, where does it say that the shiur of which is rov is going to be still tamei? That's going to be where the oven was nine tefachim l'chatchila, and therefore it's more than four even when it's broken. But Habat Tanur bar Shiva, then it really has to be four tefachim because otherwise it would be too small otherwise. Now, getting back to the beged that was torn that we had Rabbeinu Yonah's memra, lishana acharina amri lah, that Omar of Puna mishum Rebbi Yishmael Rebbi Asi, dafilu shiyur ba k'dei mafirus, that when you tear the rov of this beged, it becomes tahor, that's even if you left the amount that could still be used for handkerchief for a mafirus. Omar Resh Lakish lishana acharina talis, aval Resh Lakish says that if it's leather, it's going to be considered enough to keep it intact even though rov was torn, and therefore it will still stay tamei. Rebbi Yochanan amar, "Afilu or nami lo chashiv." Because if rov was torn, it doesn't matter, it will become tahor. So, as of a Rebbi Yochanan and Resh Lakish will ask one another, in kelim or a tumi madras, buy a piece of leather that has tumas madras, chishuv of a lov l'rotzo of a sandal, and if you make a chishuv that you wanted make it into something smaller, these straps and sandals, kimat she nasan bo eitzem, as soon as you put a knife to it, then it's going to be tahor, divrei Rebbi Yehuda. The Hachamim now actually say ten by five tefachim, it's got to be made smaller than five by five tefachim. But l'maisa, what do you see? The kimat miyut rov, once you make it smaller than the five by five tefach, it's going to be tahor. But am I leima chashiv? According to Rebbi Resh Lakish, since it's still considered muchubar, there's an uncut part, and it's oyer, it should stay tamei even after being made smaller than five by five. So, here the Mishna is going against Resh Lakish. To which the Gemara says, "Hakama amei askinan?" D'ka boi lei l'maishav zav, that leather was needed for the seat of a zav, and therefore it had a real purpose to it. But once it was made smaller than five tefachim, you can no longer use it for that purpose. But it's okay for Puna, if it could be used for mafirus, the scarf. So, therefore, even though it's shiyach to use for mafirus, it's that size, but since it was designated l'maishav zav, now that it's not, it will be tahor. So, look at the Mishna, "Or she yesh lo k'zayis basar." This is the case we had reference to on Chavez's daf. If you have this piece of er that has a zayis of nevela attached to it, and I gave it to my eight year old if there's a little sliver of meat that's sticking out or there's a piece of hair that's opposite the piece of meat on the skin side not on the meat side, then it will be tamei. That's halacha number what? Number two. How you all of kishne we also mentioned this case. Let's say you have a piece of hide and you've got two independent chatzi zayisim of buser attached to it. So sure there's no zayis there so there's not going to have tumas maga, but you're carrying the whole er so collectively you're carrying the whole shiur and therefore there'll be tumas masa. That's divrei Rebbi Shmuel bar Rebbi Chiva eimar. Nope, it's not going to be tamei at all. Leiba maga leiba masa. They are connected and we'll talk about this more in the gemara. Rebbi Akiva bishnei chatzi zayisim should tach mikisim. Let's say you have like a little toothpick that's connecting these two chatzi zayisim of buser on the that are attached to the er. If he sits and then you move them, then she would tamei even according to Rebbi Akiva. Umiknei mar Rebbi Akiva metahar bar. The wives of Rebbi Akiva say that the chatzi zayisim that are attached to the piece of er are going to be tahor. Umiknei sha'ar mevatlin. That's the idea here because I don't look at it as meat because it's just like strands that are attached to the er and therefore they're going to be battul and not going to be tamei. So after the gemara omer Ulla omer Rebbi Yochanan, lo shanu ela paltosei chaya. The Rabbanan only said this halacha where the buser that's attached is paltosei chaya because it was disconnected from the animal already. That's when the zayis of buser is going to be looked at as buser and therefore it's going to be metamei tumas nevela. Aval paltosei sakin battul. But if a person who is doing the flaying actually cut this piece off, then he is being mevatel. He's saying I don't want to look at this as buser but I'm going to look at this as er and therefore it's not metamei tumas nevela. Omer leih Rav Nachman omer Ulla omer Rebbi Yochanan af ilu bitarta. Did Rebbi Yochanan say this even by this large amount of buser like a tarta? Omer leih Ulla said back, in yeah. Zokef Nachman v'afilu a knafya? Even a knafya size which is really big? Omer leih zokef Ulla, in yeah. Omer leih zokef Nachman back to Ulla, holy cow. Like holy cow. Im omer leih Rebbi Yochanan mipumei, if Rebbi Yochanan would have said this with his own mouth, lo tzaiisna leih. I still would not have listened to him because you can't have a big piece of meat and not call that tumas nevela. Kisa leih Rav Hoshaya ashkeil leih Rebbi Ami. Rav Hoshaya came to Rebbi Ami and omer leih shma'atsa told him over this whole era. And because is an by the who does he think he is? A different time he has a safer was telling over member on the safer of the mission that if there were two that were attached to the but that's different but I mean I am That's when holds that they are going to retain their status as and therefore it's going to be only the of second bottle but where are the actual guy who's doing the flying is using a knife then is being the of that and therefore there won't even be only said back once he heard this version of of what had said did he really teach us the safer yeah and but did also say it the first part of only said yeah he said about the whole mission but but what even if would have told me this version of what had said light size no way I would not have listened to him cannot be true because if you have a but it is considered and therefore you can't just assume that the one who's doing the flying is being and in what was saying was only a it is interesting that when is making his exclamatory statement here he's saying like even if I would have heard this from but none why do you say and not and as brought by the and also and that a person cannot say such a thing and invoke name because that would be a to and you actually get and now back to the also when all those who came from came to bubble they said was saying the ratio of the mission which was really just like had said it's going to be because if you're telling me the can be a full size busser that the second takes of, it should also take care of the tarta, that bigger amount. But that can't be. Such a big amount could dominate a papa turning over to my base. Bimaru dud, we're not talking about regular busser, we're talking about a thinned out strip which connects these two hatizaysim. So echanami bimaru dud, so also in the ratio of the mishna, we weren't talking about regular busser, but it was somehow thinned out and therefore it's more insignificant and it'll be easier for the to be vatel this kind of busser that's maru dud. Then the mishna said, "How you all of if there were two hatizaysim some of busser attached to the ar, the meat will be tumah al yedei tumas masa, but not through tumas maga." That's what Rabi Yishmael had said. Omar bar Pado, "Lo yishana ela me'acharav." That's only if the person who's touching this meat is touching it from the outside of the ar, opposite the meat. Aval milifana, but let's see you actually you're coming into contact with the busser directly by touching both hatizaysim, then Rabi Yishmael will also be maskim it's going to be tumah. Because yesh negiah chazeh v'negiah, you can actually touch two hatizaysim at the same time. That's what negiah chazeh v'negiah means. It doesn't mean you touched one then you let go then you touch another one. No, it means you're touching two simultaneously, that's considered negiah chazeh v'negiah, that will become tumah according to bar Pado's version of Rabi Yishmael. Rabi Yechana amar, "Ein negiah chazeh v'negiah." That would not make it that there would be a tumas maga for touching these hatizaysim. And Rabi Yishmael would still say it's going to be tahor. The answer of Rabi Yechana is to tamei that it's not going to be tumah. Damer Rabi Yechana, Rabi Yishmael, Rabi Dais ben Herkinas omdu b'erachad. And let's break that down. Rabi Yishmael had omran, that's what we just said. Rabi Dais ben Herkinas d'itsnan, because we learned in the following mishna in the third perek of Ohalos, "Kol hamitamin b'oil shenichal to any things that would convey tumah al yedei tumas oil, like a dead body that were divided into multiple pieces, each one being less than the shiur, b'achnisan l'sech habayis, and you bring them into a bayis, Rabi Dais ben Herkinas is mitayer v'hachamim is mitamin." And now, lav amar Rabi Dais ben Herkinas, "Hasam ein machil v'chazeh umachil." Meaning these two different instances of smaller than the shiur of the meis are not going to combine. So echanami, ein negiah chazeh v'negiah. So you see, Rabi Dais ben Herkinas is aligned with that same idea that it's not going to be mistarev. And we're putting these two different issues together. So like the Gemara brings down Rabbi Yishmael, that means Rabbanan and Rabbi Akiva. I have Rabbi Akiva to hurry come and tire. Rabbi Akiva holds that the two zeisim of basar and navelah that are attached to the ar are totally tar, both for masa and maga. But as opposed to the tumas meis, can convey the tumas oil. So since Rabbi Akiva and the Rabbanan are not going to align, so how can Rabbi Yochanan put the two together? And for the Gemara, ad kan leima tar Rabbi Akiva elah be'ar. Rabbi Akiva wasn't saying that the basar is going to be tar except for these two zeisim that are attached to an ar. I will be olam ha'tamei. But under other circumstances, like by tumas oil, they will be mid-darif. Keidei ketani seifa, as you see in the end of our mishna, u'meidei Rabbi Akiva bishnei zeisim she'tuchvin be'kisvin be'seitan she'tamei. You see that if you put this little toothpick in between the zeisim and an aveilah meat, he will be tamei. U'meimei mar Rabbi Akiva metar basar. So why is Rabbi Akiva metar only by the case of ar where they're not attached? That's me'meish ar me'vatlin. But if you don't have that kind of a reasoning, you will not say such a svara. And in the end, it will be mid-darif to be osur. Masiv Rabbi Akiva bar Chama ben Nivelasim. The braisa brings that the pasuk says ben Nivelasim. That whoever touches an aveilah is going to become tamei, which sounds like ar she'ish al shnei zeisim because it's dafka the navelah as opposed to the ar. Yachol af masa that it can't even be carrying it, where you're carrying it all together. Tama leimar, hanisa yetamei. That the one who carries it is going to be tamei. Divrei Rabbi Yishmael. But Rabbi Akiva amar, hanigeah v'hanisa. We put them together, the hanigeah and the hanisa. The touching and the carrying. So we darshin, esh lechol maga, lechol masa. But leibah lechol maga, leibah lechol masa. The two are connected. So since the two zeisim in the aveilah attached to the basar cannot give you tumas maga, they also cannot give you tumas masa. Even though you're technically carrying the whole thing when you're holding the ar. Now if you're telling me according to Rabbi Yishmael that if you touch the two zeisim directly like Bar Pada says that you will be tamei, hare bal lechol maga milvad. Then it is shayich to come to a maga because you have that situation where it's shayich. But Rabbi Akiva is still saying that according to Rabbi Yishmael, the pieces are not going to be metamei by the maga, they should also not be able to be metamei through masa either. But we see that if you touch the pieces directly, you're not going to be tamei. So Rabbi Akiva is connected by Bar Pada. So I'm a rabah he comes and says what Rabbi Akiva meant to say. >> S That which comes into a matsev of maga on every side, meaning even from the skin side, not from the buser side. It's going to have to be is going to be working out even according to Bar Pada. Kulis is a bone that's complete that has marrow inside. So let's say you have a kulis which is stuma that you can't access marrow inside. So it's never really shiyach to have maga. Because it's lay to Rabbi Ishmael as shibola maga bola masa. But lay bola maga lay bola masa. And since he's never shiyach to actually touch this practically, it can't even be tumi altimus masa. And the reason only why in our mishnah that we were discussing here about the in the veil is because it's technically possible to do the maga from the front. But I don't know maybe Rabbi Ishmael wouldn't hold that way. And in me, it has nothing to do with the ability to be touching it at all. He more fundamentally argues and in the kulis would be able to be metami. So when he asks the shiyala, Amarlay, he says back to Rabbi Avia, Erva Parach. Hey, look at that bird. In other words, what beautiful weather we're having. He changed the subject. So Amarlay Rabbi Avia afterwards Rabbi said to him, "How could you say this to such a person?" How could you say this to such a person? The Rabbi Avia had said that he was such a person. So why didn't you want to deal with his shiyala? Amarlay, in a matsev where I can't really answer today. Today I'm in a matsev where I can't really answer because some khuni ba shishas which is a reference to the fact that it was Yom Tov and boy me milse de by time. He needed something that really required some svaras and I really couldn't properly answer it because I had just given my drasha Rabbi Shiyach explains and I was too tired and I needed to have more khizik from eating and drinking. Shnay khotzi zaysim she takhban be kisim. Let's say the person has these two khotzi zaysim that you put that toothpick in between that little sliver of wood. I feel maybe call him he carried all day tar because he didn't get to the veil. My time because the pasuk says nisa that which is carried. The karina nisa in the karina of the the so being a nice day for the Nisa but by you have to be able to be in a massive where you carry it and that which is carried has to be the same single object and therefore if you have two of the navela it's not shy of because it can't be carried by Sacha's so now we learn mission how you all of the time the Amaya according to why should that be the it's two it's not going to be a key of a single Nisa is one thing I'm going to pop up in my route out we're talking about it's thin doubt and therefore because the fact is thin doubt it can be carried as one and therefore it's going to be able to be my time it's interesting before we're using my route out to say it's going to be not Tommy now we're using it to say it it could be Tommy tosh my bring you a riot our mission says my Derby mission to have a but am I according to how love Nisa who these two are not going to be my time that tonight that you have to carry it as one object which the hockey that's how you got to learn our mission because of the fact it was thin doubt that you can now carry them both as one thin out piece of it will be shy to be my time and this whole thing is we have a Bryson that says and again Mason Elias says even if you're carrying it so I'll do nice a lot Mason too isn't the one who's carrying it the same as the one who moves it what's the Elias are adding more than the what the already says and a lot of a lot of Mason but Elias one who touches it and one who moves the navela that can't be carried as one meaning two Mason is going to be Tommy and of them that it has to be carried as one unified single object who might have then what Elias mean even Elias is limiting it so he should say only not even so I'm going to say you're going to limit it only if it's carried as one and this is where we're going to stop and pick it up with the mission for tomorrow's Duff