Chullin Daf 123

All right, daf kuf kaf gimel, this is Monday's daf. And we're picking it up on kuf kaf bet met bet, the two dots towards the bottom. Just one point of correction on yesterday's daf, I mis-teitched rechuva and karasim arayish saying that the arayish was lav davka, but it's not really the pshat. Where Rashi understands it back before an ayin vav was that it is sold alongside the arayish, and it was way to identify what part of the leg it was. Anyway, sorry for that, and thank you Malkiel Hefter, long time chabura member, for pointing that mistake out. All right, the kulan shiv done, that the mishna had said any of these kinds of skins that were made into leather, where they were spread out and stamped on to make them into leather, are all going to be tahor. So, the gemara says hiluch in, it sounds like if those arayish you actually were hiluch, you stepped on them in order to make them into leather, which was the process, yeah, that will make it tahor. But lehiluch lay, let's say you just set it aside, you're maybe mazmin it, but you didn't actually do the hiluch, it will not become tahor. Ah, frech degamara v'hatanya Rebbi Chiya, ozen chamora shetalah lekuppasai tahora. Back in the day, where they didn't have plastics and ready-made cans, sometimes you'd have to make do with whatever you got. If I have an ear of a donkey, which I guess is useful to patch up my basket with the leather of this ear, but lemaisa might have tumas nevela, and has a din of oir. So, Rebbi Chiya in the braisa had said that that ozen chamora is tahor. So, you don't have to step on it, just by simply taking that oir and designating it as leather is enough to take it out of the din of tumas nevela. So, so too, these oirice, just by putting them on the ground, or putting it on the person's foot, which indicates that he wants to make it into leather, should already take it out of the din of nevela. Which the gemara says, it's not a raya because talah af al gab dele hiluch, if you're patching this donkey ear to the basket, it's going to be lav tahor even though you didn't step on it. But lay talah, but if you didn't even patch it up or use any kind of a physical indication, then in a kinami, hiluch in lay hiluch lay. So, you're just choosing a different kind of process, which is physical and going to indicate no longer have a din of a nevela. Okay, but there was a lashon in the mishna of kedei ibud, so kama kedei ibud, how much is and what is the shiyur of the kadei ebud that you're stepping on it for the amount of time for that process? How long is it? Some are arbas milin, the time it takes to walk four mil. And we find that idea of arbas milin, which is kind of a famous halacha, it gets applied in other contexts. They're also arbas milin. So you find this halacha of arbas milin by these other dinim and let's go through them because there's what to talk about in these different dinim. The first one is legavel, which Rashi learns is talking about someone who's hired to knead dough and the person who hired him gave him a keili which is tamei. So how far should this gabal, this guy who's supposed to do the kneading, how far does he need to go to be toivel this keili in a mikvah? So this way the dough will be kneaded in a matzah of tahara. That's how Rashi learns. How far do you got to go to make sure this keili stays tahor? In maseches pesachim where the same gemara exists, there Rabbeinu Dovid says it can't be that Rashi's right because what's the arrangement that he has with the baal bayis? If he has to do it betahara, so then he's not being mekayem the service properly if he doesn't travel to dunk this keili in the mikvah. That's what the job is and if he doesn't have to, then he shouldn't get involved with it in the first place. Like what is their arrangement? So the Rabbeinu Dovid brings an alternative shot that it's not about their arrangement at all. It has to be that there's a hakpada on in general doing the chulin betahara and how much he should be careful to be megabel betahara. The next one on this list is ulatfila and the way Rashi learns that you're supposed to travel four mil for tfila in what context? They're talking about going to shul. How far do you need to be matriaach when you're traveling to go to a shul and the answer is mil. Tosafos brings this idea from Rashi and says it's really going to be about the minyan, not so much the shul but davening with a minyan. Tosafos brings from the Aruch that says it's talking about washing your hands for davening. You know, the halacha is besides washing your hands for netilas yadayim in the morning, there's also an issue of washing your hands before shemoneh esrei for davening. And the Chavas Yair in Yoreh De'ah even says that you make a bracha on such netila. That's not how we pasken halacha lemaaseh, but there is certainly a chashivus to the washing of one's hands before davening. The Rabbeinu Chananel says that's about Krias Shema, that's davka about Shemoneh Esrei. Hey, yes, Shemoneh Esrei may not be de raya and Krias Shema is, but still there's a special chashivus for Shemoneh Esrei that one has to wash their hands beforehand, and that's what the context might be here about going four mil. And the last one was Ulin Til She Yadain. This one we talked about earlier in this mesechta about when you don't have any available water and you want to wash your hands and maybe you have the eitza of I won't touch the bread, but the halacha of Arba Milin will also be negiah. It's very hard to make Arba Milin negiah as much as that because I think it's brought in the Mishna Berurah, but certainly it's quoted b'shem the Chofetz Chaim that that since today you can travel four mil on a train, so the distance of Arba Milin is a measurement of time, not really of distance. And therefore the amount of time it takes to travel Arba Milin is different today than it used to be. Back to the Gemara, Amar Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak, "Aivai Amra." So remember it was not Rav Avu, but rather it was Aivu. But our boy Amar boy, he said four halachas, not just like the three that we already mentioned, but also b'chadei v'lo avayda. The fourth is this halacha of working the leather that was listed in our Mishna. Amar Rav Yitzchak bar Chanina, "Lo Shanuel, lo Shanuel l'fanav." This din of Rav Kish that you have to travel four mil is only if it's in the same direction of where you're headed. Aval achora, but to go backwards, I mean let's say you just missed the exit on the turnpike where you can go and wash your hands, then could be a filu milacha d'lo chazer. I'm not mechuyav to go a mil back, but only if there's a rest stop within the upcoming four mil. Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak Amar, "U mina." And we can see from this member of Rav Yitzchak bar Chanina, "Mil hu d'eina chazer aval apacha mil chazer." Now here this is like an obvious takeaway, but if it's less than a mil, of course you do have to go back because you just missed your turn, so turn around and go back and wash your hands. But it was only within that mil. Tanna Rabbanan, we learned in a braisa, "L'giyain ha'over mi'makom l'makom." Let's say you got this army, a legion, that's going from one place to another, "v'nichnas l'bayis." It walks into a house, "ha'bayis tamei." We give that house now a status of a tumas meis. "She'ein l'chol giyain v'ligiyain she'ein lei kama karkeflin." There's no Roman legion that doesn't have with it lots of scalps. These are the karkeflin. As Rashi says, they would carry their enemies' scalps, and they would do this because there was a kishuv aspect to it. So, it was literally their good luck charms. By the way, this actually might help shed light on why on yesterday's daf a person might be inclined to keep the skin of their parents as their rug or their furniture cover because they're using it for some sort of level of kishuv, and the closer you are to it, the more it might be effective. I'm not sure who says this, but Rebbe Azriel mentioned that. Be all the time and don't be so shocked that they carry scalps because karkafle shel Rebbe Yishmael bar Elisha that karkafle over Rebbe Yishmael that you remember from the Asarah Harugah Malchus was put on the heads of kings. And when we had this Gemara in Avodah Zarah, that the Caesar's daughter saw the beauty of Rebbe Yishmael and actually kept the skin of his face and preserved it. And Rashi in Avodah Zarah even says a dying munach begins a rime, it's still there in the catacombs over there of the Vatican. But that was the derech, and therefore these homes that the soldiers are in are going to have the din of tumas meis. Okay, so the Mishna says beheima u'chaya, let's say someone is skinning or flaying a beheima or a chaya, bitahara u'bitum'a, whether it's kosher or not kosher animal. Bidaka u'bigasa, big or small, lishatiach, if he is flaying this animal to use it to spread it out like a rug or a tablecloth, it will be metamei kidai achiza, only that amount that it can act as a yad. Because skin is technically a shomer, it protects what's in it. But once you can now separate it such that you can grab it, it can actually act as a yad. But it's only going to be a yad if it's a small amount that you would be grabbing. Because after a certain point, the flayed amount of that or is going to extend too far, it'll be too separated from the actual carcass, and then you won't be able to effectively use it as a yad to apply pressure when you're doing the rest of your flaying. So, that's the kidai achiza. It's only going to be a yad for that first initial point. U'l'cheimes, and let's say you're flaying the animal so you can use it or for a keli, for a flask, so then that flayed portion of the or is going to be shavah l'kabel tum'a throughout the whole process ad shey'afshit et ha'chaza, until you flay the chaza, the breast of the animal, which is the widest, biggest part, and most difficult part. So, until you're mafshit the chaza, it's considered like it's an attached yad. But after that point, it's not. Hamargil, let's say he starts from the back legs because he wants to use the or for a flask. So cool hibur letuma, all of that subsequent skin that he's going to cut is considered like it's attached klpei tuma. And the uniqueness of this case is since he started with the back legs rather than the neck, which would be more normal, and he works his way towards the animal's head, it's because he's saving that choza for the end. And since the choza is the most difficult part to do the hefshit, the whole or will remain a yad until it's actually nifshit. So therefore, it'll be cool hibur letuma both letame uletame. And therefore, the whole or is considered a yad to be mekabel and to be meiti the tuma. Now, orsha al hatsavar, let's say the skin which is on the neck, which is looser, Rebbi Yirmiya ben Nuriya omer eina hibur cuz it's going to fall off all by itself once the rest of the hide is taken off the animal. So therefore, the actual or on the neck, unlike the choza, is not going to give that flayed or status of a yad. But Hachamim omerim hibur ach she yafshit das kulai, it's going to have a halacha of hibur until the entire thing is off. And therefore, the kulai is to be taken literally. So even if you're doing from the back to the front, the whole or is going to be metame until the skin of the neck is actually taken off. It's not the gemara. Mikam be eilach mai, what's the halacha legabei this or that is hufshit from that part that can still be grabbed along the whole length of the animal? Does that part of the or that was cut afterwards metame or not? In other words, we're talking about a case where you were flaying this whole animal to make this tablecloth or some kind of spread. And the mahalach is you cut it first lengthwise from the head down to the hindquarters, and then you peel it towards the sides. And the Mishnah said until that part exceeds the amount that you need to grab it, it'll be metame. But now we're asking, when you flay an additional part of this or beyond the amount that you need to actually hold it, can it convey tuma through any part of that or not? So Amarav, tahar hamufshit, the part that you're going to flay afterwards is tahar, meaning it's not conveying any tuma. But Rebbi Asi omer tefach hasamuch labasar is tame, the tefach of the or that is closest to the animal's basar is going to be tame even beyond that point of kdei achiza cuz that tefach is still a yad. You still grab it to pull the remaining or from the carcass of the animal. May survey. I the price is says I'm actually cashier as there we can be a little bit again emotion to her. Sounds like past that point it will be Taurus. So my love of you have some of the boss who can I get with a see you don't include that extra effort. What's the most like love me to have some of the boss except for that effort though price wasn't dealing with that. Tosh my brother Bryce is says but are connected a boss is Tommy. So it sounds like are she connected a boss is Tommy but have a some of the boss is going to tar which is like Rob connected to a boss either we're not counting that extra effort. Twisted mercy snow tunnel kept a casa la casa or she can I get a boss of Kyrie lay. That's called the arch connected a boss of the snow we got on the boss of Tosh my brother you another eye from a Bryce and I'm actually a little bit higher but to hire a little bit to mayor but taco because Alicia could they only that of my cousin but I have some of the boss of tar and the that has been removed from the animal that's closest to the boss is tar it's not going to be with Tommy. So the price is before is that that effort is not going to be with Tommy. So the first before is like Rob and not like a boss either twisted mercy snow it's not even a cash from this price of which seems so before is because my asking him but that is the first effort that's played after you got to that point of even is not the first effort is not going to be with Tommy but once that flare gets past that point the effort of that which is closest to the animals boss is going to be with Tommy. So come to the first effort that follows the is never used it's therefore not a yard it's not going to be with Tommy but each following effort is temporarily used as a yard and therefore it can be with Tommy. Talk to me about that talk to me about that how long how much is that which we said it's a effort I have a tiny two not one I am coupled to double effort which really does mean to and come to me coupled and now we're going to discuss mission in Kaylin which is exciting to me because this mission in Kaylin that we're going to spend some time on is the mission in the 28th pair of Kaylin which is this week's mission is and so for those of you out there who are doing both the Duff and the mission Yemi have a special on the rest of today's Duff. Tonight I also learned in the mission in the 28th pair of Kaylin tell us let's Let's tell this, which he started to tear in order to make it ice tummy. Right, by tearing the beged would be a reason to make it no longer tummy. So, keep in schnick or ruba once rev of it is torn, shoven a heber, and therefore uta heira. Any beged that is no longer usable in its original way, the Thomas sheretz, for example, any kind of Thomas maga is going to now be tar. Same idea with like a klee cheres that becomes tar when it's broken. Now, Rashi does have a kasha from the mission that we literally just learned yesterday about a piece of cloth that's exactly three fachim, which had Thomas midras and Thomas zov. And the mission of paskins Rabbi Yessi that when you tear such a piece of cloth in two, the Thomas midras does go away, but the Thomas zov can stay, which tells us that the torn pieces of cloth that are 3 by 3, that's voice, does not cause the tuma to go away. Meanwhile, the mission that our gamara is talking about is pretty clear that that if the torn pieces are still 3 by 3, they are no longer tuma. So, here are these two missionas, and Rashi himself explains that the actual tearing can only take away one kind of tuma. That's why when it's tuma with two different kinds of tuma, tearing it is only going to make one kind of tuma go away, but how I dove here that the missionas and the gamara are mamesh lining up right now. So, as we say, way to go Rabbi Meir Shapiro. All right, but getting back to this mission. Once rev of this tallit is torn, it's not considered much anymore, and therefore tahara. Omer Rabbi Nachman Omer Rabbi Bar Barucha, lo shana of tallit shales game. What kind of tallit are we talking about? We're talking about tallit that was a shales game, meaning he went to the mikvah, and we're waiting for the hair of shemesh. And by tonight, it'll totally be free of all tuma. What's the point of the fact that he put in the mikvah? The migo chasal leva at since you're clearly not so much occupied about the status of this beged, because you put it in the mikvah after all. So, since you're not like chayas leva carlo ruba, we're not worried that he's not going to want to tear more of it. And therefore, once he does tear the rave, it's going to be tar. I will tallit shana shales game. But let's say the beged is not put in the mikvah. So, loy, tearing rave of it is not going to make it tar because gezera, there's a din derabanan dilmali osila mikra ruba. Maybe he's not going to want to tear rave, and therefore they said that you can't just be the rave of tearing it, you got to tear it completely. Stay true to the Torah. I got two problems with that. First of all, if you're telling me it's Torah on the same day that it was put in the mikvah, people might make a different mistake. That's Torah because of that that happened on that day. That's another problem that could happen. Maybe that's why the said that tearing it on that day is not going to make it Torah. The if you're telling me that you got to tear the whole beged because we're afraid he might not go through with it cuz he cares so much about the beged turning over to I was by case of an according to holds that the kind of like on rave of the legs are also make a similar kind of the maybe the kind is not going to want to cut both of the two and the fact that we don't make such a means we don't make such a kind of that's the second kind of which I'm a layer of the this that you said that that made a kind of kind of about the beged that's torn on the same day it went into the mikvah that's going to stay people are going to say that it's the mikvah that makes it Torah. Now, because Kira Allah the very fact that it was torn is the reason why it's going to be Torah. People are not going to think that the mikvah is the Torah from that day. The this that you had a kind of I was that why don't they make such a we're also not worried about that because reasoning we're not worried that they're going to make a mistake about cutting both okay, so let's ask another kind of from our mission the mission that says I'm the tomato and all these cases if you're flaying the animal to use the hide to spread it out, it's going to convey until you get to those two that we talked about right that that you can use as the more than more than that it's going to be Torah. Now, I might legs are according to you we should make a that would require the person who's doing the flaying to take much more because we're afraid that he might only do the amount because then he's touching the part that is going to be then we're going to mistakenly say that the busser be Torah. But the fact that the mission doesn't say that there's such a takana is connected to Rav Nachman. And for the Gemara, "E but Torah is a Had you been talking about real tumah derabbanan hinami, then you would make such a gezeirah and a takana. But what about skin and what are we talking about here? We're talking about tumah derabbanan. So there's no kashya of Nachman." By the case in the Mishna of meseches Keilim, that was talking about tumah derabbanan. But what kind of tumah are we talking about over here? We're talking about one of these kinds of derabbanan dikah tumahs, which were the 18 different derabbanan dikah tumahs that are in the beginning of meseches Shabbos, like for a person who put his rosh over rubo in a mayim she'uvin. These are all just derabbanan. >> "I tenach tumah bitaharah." That's fine and dandy for a person who's tumah who's doing the flaying of a tahor dikah beheima. Because that could be a tumah derabbanan. But tahor bitamei, what about a tahor person who's being mavshit a tamei dikah animal? Well, in that case, tumah derabbanan because tumas nevelas is what's being handled and that's takah tumah derabbanan. But yet still the Mishna is saying that anything beyond the kedei achiza is going to be tar. So even by tumah derabbanan there's no gezeirah, which is connected to Rav Nachman. To which the Gemara says, "No, we're not talking about tumah derabbanan because we're talking about betreifos because that tumah is only derabbanan." To which the Gemara says, "Treifah bastei meyeihi? Can a treifah be metamei when know about tumah derabbanan? There's no such thing as a tumah for a treifah." The Gemara says, "Yes, there is in kedei boi deshmual." The amar Rav Yehudah deshmual, "Treifah asher shachatah metamei bemukdashin." There is a matzev where a treifah that had a shechitah can still be metamei and that's by kodshim. And that is certainly only din derabbanan and therefore, since it's only derabbanan, we're not going to have Rav Nachman's gezeirah. All right, let's try another kashya of Nachman from the following braisa that "Tosh mar Rabbi Dostai ben Yehudah mi Shimon Rabbi Shimon omer, "Hamavshit es shratzim." If someone is doing havshat on a sheretz, "chibur ach sheyavshit es kulai." The din is that or is considered like it's attached klappei halacha tumah until the entire or is removed from the dead body, which is mashma gomel in chibur. It's dafka by the sheretz but not by the gomel. And it's not considered like it's attached throughout that whole havshat process. Rather, what we would say it's only considered like it's attached until the kedei achiza but not beyond that. But according to Rav Nachman, the or of the gomel should also be metamei throughout that process midderabbanan. So al acheres it's connected to Nachman. And for the Gemara, "Leitema gomel in chibur, don't be medayek that way. Aleima bar shaalat savrei in chibur." By the case of the havshat of the Gomal to make that leather Kaylee then the skin on the Tsaver is not considered like it's attached. For the human Nuri which we had said earlier where it's not going to be Matame once it gets to the skin on the neck. But if you're trying to be Mabshed the Gomal in order to use it Lishotiyach then in the Nami the whole hour will continue to be Matame throughout the whole process as Rab Nachman had suggested. Getting back to the mission in Kaylim about that Begged Omer of Huna Mishum Rabishum Mishum Rabi Asi Lishono Ela Lishiya Bokiday Mafirus that Hazal are telling us that tearing Roy of this Begged is going to make it Tahor only when you don't leave the amount needed for a Mafirus for like a handkerchief. Aval Shiya Bokiday Mafirus then Hiber then those torn pieces are still considered like they're attached because you could still use it and therefore it's going to stay Tame. Omer Ish Lakish Lishono Ela Talis that's going to be only Betar for this softer cloth material. Aval Or Halim by piece of leather at the small amounts that are left intact is a stronger Hiber for the torn pieces. And therefore if you tear Roy of the piece of the leather but leaving a small part still intact the whole leather will remain Tame. It's only Tahor if you completely tear it in half. Rabbi Akiva Omer now Afelu Or Nami Lehalim even by the case of the Or a small amount that's left intact is not enough of a Hiber and therefore if you cut Roy of it it will still become Tahor. I asked Rabbi Akiva Ish Lakish from an earlier Mishnah Masechta Kaylim in the 26th Perek that Or Tame Midras a piece of leather that is Tame Midras Kishiv Lov Lortus Sandalim if you want to use it to make it into straps sandals Kimishin Baizman once you put a knife to it it'll be Tahor. That's the Rabbi Yehuda Omer Machi Yami Tenu Michamisha Tifachim until you make it smaller than a five by five Tifach square. But Kima Mayid Lay Miyatar but once you do make it less than five by five square it's going to be Tahor according to everybody. So my Layma Halim according to Ish Lakish you should say the uncut Halik of the leather that's still connected is enough to be Machaber the remaining leather. But since the Mishnah says it's Tahor L'char the Mishnah is Befarish not like Ish Lakish to which the Gemara answers Kikamri Dehalim when does Ish Lakish say that the uncut part of this leather is going to be Machaber the pieces? That's Heicha Dechatzari Layla Edya that's when it's a straight cut down the length or the width. But how come Ish Kima but that mission in the 26 paragraph of Caleb is talking specifically about Ubola Darsh Vivasa? You're cutting a strip around the sides of the leather. In that case, the fiber between the two pieces isn't strong and therefore the tome is going to go away. And we're still talking about this, but we're going to pause over here and pick it up with Masara of Yermiya for tomorrow's daf and hang in there folks, just a few more daf or of our right day from Tom and Tyro until we get into all these fun procom in Masak of Hulin and we'll see you tomorrow.