Chullin Daf 122

All right, today is Daf Chof Beis. And on Shabbos is Daf we're talking about Shittos Rebbi Yochanan and even a beheima that's mefurkeses, that's thrashing about and about to die, for it's still considered like it's alive and there'll be a problem of eiver min hachai. And the Gemara had brought a braisa to support Shittos Rebbi Yochanan and amongst the halachos was the final one of Haray Shiyechamen Beheima Shiteis Nafsha Choytech K'zayis Basar Mibeis Shchitas, if you want to eat from like a living animal even though it's kind of being said in jest, in other words immediately after shchita when the animal is still before it's completely dead, you can chop some meat from the makom shchita where the skin is already exposing the meat beneath and you can salt it and wash it and eat it. And then if you're mumtin achiteis nafsha, you can now eat it acharei chacham v'acharei Yisrael, it'll be mutar and by. And now we're picking it up on the sixth wide line on Chof Chof Alef Amud Beis, Misaya Lei Rebbi Idi bar Ovin, this idea of taking from the beis hashchita is like what Rebbi Idi bar Ovin said, Omri Rebbi Idi bar Ovin Omri Rebbi Yitzchak bar Ashiyan, Haray Shiyavri, if you wanted something that's really healthy and good for you, choytech k'zayis basar mibeis hashchita, cut out that piece of meat from the neck of the animal at the beis hashchita. Umuchal Yafyafa Umuchal Yafyafa, wash it and salt it properly. Umumtin L'achiteis Nafsha Acharei Chacham V'acharei Yisrael Mutar and by cuz you can see his halacha supported by that braisa. Okay, that's that. Now Boy Rebbi Elazar, this that we said that if a Yid shacht a non-kosher animal or a kosher animal that's shachted by a will have tumas ochlin because it blips like it had a shchita, but it has to have a shchita not in the chira. But now the question is Boy Rebbi Elazar, how literal does that shchita have to be? Shaba Drasha Malo, let's say there was a sh'hiya or a drasha, meaning you paused during the shchita or you pushed down the knife during the shchita. That is a psul in the shchita. But who are we kidding, even when you're shachting a non-kosher animal or a that's shachting, this is not yielding a kosher animal to eat. So maybe when you're doing a shchita even with the sh'hiya and the drasha, maybe that will still suffice for the tumas ochlin cuz there's still a shchita even albeit not a perfect shchita. To which Omri Lei Usaba, Chochiyam Rebbi Yochanan, Tzricha Hechsher Shchita K'beheima Tehora, it needs a mamash a kosher shchita. >> And that kind of stuck a line that needs a kosher shita has to be what kind of kosher are we talking about? I don't know if I don't need to have even the halacha of checking the knife before you do shita. In other words, it has to be mama kosher shita. So, if you want this, I don't know, horse that you're shechting to have Thomas and has to have mama good shita. I feel with the second and certainly not have a dressa. Rav Rosner was clearing when he was saying this. When we list shita and dressa, is that the first of the list of all five like the whole who? Or maybe those are the two that really are not so outlandish. I mean, you're not going to tell me which is really not a shita could be considered shita. But, those two are very close to really being a real proper shita. So, maybe those two were he wasn't sure. Just pointing it out. By me night mama castle this not kosher animal that is shechted by or a kosher animal that is shechted by a guy and now the still being what's the matter? Can it still act as a shield for say a was inside of that animal? If it's considered alive, it will like like covered and will not become if it's in the same house with a mace. So, you're telling me you're telling me that it can be Thomas if it's food, it's definitely dead and therefore it can't prevent what's inside of it from becoming you're not going to have the cooler if you will of well, I can show you the other way. It doesn't have Thomas which implies that it's alive. And therefore to my should work. So, we don't know. It's not going to protect things that are inside of it. That's the bottom line which sounds like we're really handling the real over here. And then gives us one last here. The and if someone would be this dying animal. So, this animal was bleeding out. It's somebody decides they want to be reved, that guy definitely has issues. But the question is, is he being reved a dead piece of meat or is it a living animal, which is going to be chaim misah? So there, he's going to be chaim to ainam tumas navelah cuz it's not dead since it doesn't have tumas navelah, and therefore you'll be chaim for the harva. Okay, the mission had said "Who da amar el al?" Which was the thing that we had a machlokes about yesterday, whether it was the neck bone or if it was strands of meat that were attached to the ar. That was R' Shimon ben Yochai from yesterday. But the Gemara said yesterday that we're certainly according to R' Yehudah talking about the strands of meat that are attached when you're flaying off the ar of the animal. So on that, and this is a quote from yesterday also, we said "Amar R' Nachman who said kinsei? It's dafka where you intentionally gather it together." Cuz when you're doing that, you're showing you're being chashuve as opposed to it happening on its own or tinika's putting it together. That's the halacha from R' Nachman that we'd already quoted. Now we're telling us another halacha from R' Nachman. "Vi amar Rav Nachman, shnei chatzoi zeisim she yesh nan al gabei ha ar." Let's say you have two different half zeisim of this meat on the ar, on that hide. So the halacha is ha ar mevatalin. Ar, which is certainly not food, is mevatal these half zeisim because they're not together. So they're not going to combine for tumas navelah even though collectively they have the shear for tumas navelah, but the ar succeeds in being mevatal. Moving over to amud aleph, this din of R' Nachman that the chatzi zeisim l'chara is a machlokes tanayim coming up on chof aleph. So the Gemara wants to know now, al libei d'man, who's R' Nachman talking like? He al libei d'Rebbi Shmuel who we're going to see on chof aleph says "Ha ar leima vatal ar." That ar is not mevatal the chatzi zeisim. So therefore R' Nachman couldn't be saying like him. And vi al libei d'Rebbi Akiva, if he's just saying over shitas d'Rebbi Akiva, so shita "Ha ar mevatal ar." That was shitas Rebbi Akiva that the ar succeeds in being mevatal. So then R' Nachman wouldn't be saying anything new. So who's R' Nachman talking like? He knows this machlokes exists. And then the Gemara says "Li al libei d'Rebbi Shmuel." Which sounds like he's not going like him. Now vi amar Rebbi Shmuel "Leima vatal ar." That's chani milish paltozei chaya, as we mentioned on yesterday's daf. That's dafka when the reason the ar became disconnected from the body of the animal is because another animal did this. Aval paltozei sakin, but if let's say a human being took a knife and sliced it off, bottle that will be me bottle whatever little bits of meat are connected to it because we're saying that that's not part of the bus or but rather it's part of the yard. So it makes a difference how it happened. Tushma we got with this second halacha of Rav Huna about the tziruf of these chatzi zeisim. Rebi Yehuda omer how elol hamuchnas by the elol of the nevela that you gather into one place in mishkes makom mechad chayav and all of you will be chayav and the pasul is yechayav for nevela. Rashi if you remember also said you're chayav for the achila and that's what Tosafos' problem was that since when does achshav change the status for issurim not just for tumah. But al panim he did say you're going to be chayav in a love. Yom Rav Huna v'Rav Hoshaya can say and as Dr. Huna that's davka where it's intentionally gathered and l'chayil we're talking about individual pieces that were less than a zayis that were separated and then the person who did this flaying gathered the pieces together and Dr. Yehuda that the elol is not going to be bottle unless you intended it to do that. So im Rav Shimon palto sekin Rav Shimon lay bottle. This is all fine and dandy like Rav Shimon if he's saying that these pieces of meat that were cut off by the flayer's sakin is not immediately bottle because of the yard. So Rav Huna d'amar k'Rav Shimon. Therefore we can say that Rav Huna is saying she distributed is working like Rav Shimon. El yamra palto sekin Rav Shimon lay bottle so Rav Huna d'amar k'man? Who's Rav Huna saying his pshat Rav Yehuda like cuz both Rav Shimon and Rav Akiva are going to hold that the chatzi zayis is automatically bottle and therefore putting it afterwards is not going to create the tziruf to bring it to a tumas nevela. So how could Rav Yehuda say that if you are cutting this them and now you have the share of a kazayis of elol it's going to be liable in nevela. El elam palto sekin Rav Shimon lay bottle lav is not going to be bottle. Rav Huna d'amar k'Rav Akiva. Now l'chayil that was exactly what Rav Akiva said. So pshita. What would Rav Huna be saying extra cuz my would it tamei kika amar Rav Akiva hani mili palto sekin. Al palto sekhaya lay bottle. Maybe Rav Akiva wouldn't extend this halacha to palto sekhaya cuz there's less more of that human involvement so kamash munza Rav Huna that the or is going to be mevatel the chatzi zayis of basar because time of Rav Akiva mishak or mevatlan. Lashon palto sekhaya v'lashon palto sekin. In either way the or is mevatel those pieces of meat k'dei tnei seifa like it says in the mishna coming up on kochav dalid. M'fnei ma Rav Akiva meitar or m'fnei sha or mevatlan. the actual is irrespective of how it happens. Any piece of that still stick to that is going to automatically be whether or not it came all you day the person or an animal and that is that. So the first mission of gave us a list of things that are not going to create because they're not edible they're not like but the here a we're saying the following creatures their is like the first one on the list is amazingly a person's skin that will be now we're talking over here about the but the in his says we're even talking about yeah you heard me right. Next in the list as a domestic would be also a wild is also going to have that same status in we'll talk about it in the the show the skin of the hump of a soft camel the skin of the head of a calf that's very soft skin of its hooves base of the skin over the of the female animal the the skin of a fetus the skin under the fat tail the the skin of these different kinds of creatures Rabbi teaches how to get hold of and these are lists from some of these and that the Torah talks about what they exactly are is a matter of much discussion the issue of done in all of these if they were worked into leather or they were spread out for the purposes of making leather out of these things they're going to be because they're not considered like but rather they're considered like leather may accept for human skin which will to me even if it's made into leather and we'll see soon why human skin is different than every other animal skin. Rabbi teaches all of these that are mentioned in the Torah have meaning their skin is not considered like now the Adam is a person's skin in tire it's It's considered as it's not part of the mays that would be normally tame. Uma tam amru tame? So why do hazal say it's tame? Because miyasa over stichin. Hazal made a gezera and said that okay, we're going to give it a tuma derabanan because we're afraid that a person is going to take the skin of their parents and make it into stichin, some kind of a spread, maybe a cover for his furniture. Obviously, this gemara is hard to understand. Why in the world would a person take their parents skin and do this? The rabannan says this might be a misguided way of a person honoring their parents. They take their parents skin and they use it in their furniture as like mom, dad, having you on my sofa is the best way to honor your memory. Well, spoiler alert, it ain't. I guess the message is here that it's best to be comfortable in your own skin. Womp womp. But anyway, there's an important question from Tosafos over here. Why are we tame in any of these things by like the uniqueness of the skin of parents? Every skin is asur because asur no, it's from a dead body. Dead bodies are always asur but Tosafos says there's actually a bigger gezera on the ar over because it's tuva. Some of the rishonim speak up because there's a kibud av issue going on over here. It's more humer, but we should note that Tosafos in Niddah on nun hey, I believe it is, where Tosafos in Niddah says the very de kashita that skin in general is not part of the issur hana'ah of a mays. Most rishonim don't hold that way, but it's an important shita Tosafos. It's actually negel halacha lema'aseh with skin grafting or a cornea transplant or things that one might argue even though they come from a dead body maybe might not have the same issur hana'ah of the rest of the body. Okay, but Ulla's memra saying that or adam continues our gemara le seifa. Some learn that Ulla was really talking about the latter part of the mission that says she ibdan, all of these things that were worked into a leather. Or you're going to stop on it to make it into kind of leather or tahor and me or adam, which is going to stay tame even if you make it into leather. Amar Ulla, because or adam she ibdan is tahor. Uma tam amru tame? So why do hazal say it's tame even after you've made it into leather when the tire doesn't say that? Because miyasa over stichin. We don't want We don't want of their parents and getting freaky with their skin. Remember the massive if you're learning that human skin is going to be so culture cannot say for that's talking about skin that was made into leather. If you learn that was saying that skin is tar when you make it into leather skin portion maybe it'll be the rice it could be that the human skin will still have a tumor with a rice. Now I mentioned that the rabbit says that our mission was also talking about the eating of skin and that's really also what's happening over here. It's not just the tire but also the rice. That is a wish I know but I think it's Robin and Robin the beginning of the seventh part of the rush brings that so be aware of that as well. Okay, the mission of 10 said the skin of a pig that is a domestic pig and if you do extends it even to the cause you're a bar the wild ones but my what's the time to come and be the arguing about the holes that the skin of the wild pig is very rough and tough but the skin of the domestic pig is more soft or more silver high or you just going to hold the bars also considered soft. Then the mission said or hot Terrace shall go a record that the skin of the hump of a soft camel the camel and how long is it considered a soft camel like a tender camel on ruler on Ruby Levy calls my children long as it didn't slip a then it didn't get tough by Ruby he gives my time to take out old enough to slip things but it didn't slip it all yet so now is that going to be considered or not and boy about the opposite kind of a he gives my let's say it's not old enough to slip but it started slipping anyway now is that going to make it no longer soft and tender and of them is take a year of coming by the was asking a comma camel Haraka until when is the hump of the soft camel considered this massive how long is a soft on my way Ruby Harbor calls my children as long as it didn't carry back luck so on my way says you can sit next to me in other words thank you for my as your reward sit with me you have a coming by camera camera until when is it considered the hump of a soft >> was quiet, he didn't react. He didn't acknowledge the answer, so Reuven repeated it a second time. So, I'm going to raise there and said to him, "How do you have you look at him right? You only have one thing you could say and you're saying it over again?" He was criticizing him for repeating himself. And the Gamara reflects on this You see the difference between the stark height that keep it out of the Israel and the more adult ones from Bavel because you see what he reacted. the skin of the head of this soft calf is going to also be considered How long is it going to have that motive? Ula I'm going to bench now say if it's its first year. calls man she on it cuz long as it is still being young neck then it will be considered rough. What did Ula mean? as long as only has one of those tonight and even if it's older than it's first year. Ula bench now say come over Ula was saying it was in the first year. bench now say who she any needs to have both tonight. How do we supposed to understand this? Now, meant that it has to also be in his first year and it's young neck. So, it might mean that it must be Reuven who was saying as long as it's being young neck even after it's first year it will still be considered soft. or a racial egg or a rock now she a tummy. If this egg is in the veil, does the or of its head convey to miss the veil like buster? And if it's going to shock then is it going to miss the veil like buster? So, Reuven it's not going to have that kind of tummy. Reuven says back to Reuven But you taught us from this stuff mission that a little And since you said the whole of goes like stuff mission the or of the race of this egg or a rock should be my tummy. I'll tuck me tiny. Tuck me a tiny from this mission because you have any China because I taught it as a dusty auction but not as the Robin so you're not so I'm a kind of and I'll show you that it's only a dusty auction there Tanya because the price is says someone checks in and this is regarding Hill's piggle the hack their it's going to be possible but it doesn't have the classic is a carrier of real piggle because it's called as money then in the economy piggle of cars like classic piggle the loser you do of line I am a mission of pain higher Rabbi been you do of a come I am a mission of pain our process whether or not it's a skin of the hooves or a racial how rough or the skin of the head of this egg of a rough like we're talking about the original tuck as a the whole thing that we told you saying keep saying or any of those other kinds of skins that listed the in our mission that the skins have a dinner like Buster the whole way base of the including the skin of that area of the of the female carbon of the whole thing for any of these things if it's done it will be possible of cars because it's not if it's real piggle with a piggle but what do you see from this price is that only been you do from the same and you do of a come the same hold that these skins are all considered like Buster but the doesn't say this the only says the the that's why wasn't passing it like that in the mission of the mission said base of the price of the skin of the hooves to my base of the price is the whole thing of the base of the price is the skin there by the hooves themselves of the whole thing of the whole thing of the it's the whole joint sold with the head and doesn't mean the head of the animal it's a reference to a certain part of the animal's leg and the mission said and that was a list of the a bunch of things that were the different and the price is the ones that are hot so we the whole thing of the whole thing of the that their skins are like their Buster that they also that their skins will also convey to my just like their busser. You have to look cool and might be that all of the including the ones that have hard skin that it'll have the same as their busser. That's the ones in this list. Going about all of them. It's talking about all eight. Let me know who if not the actual breaks it up with the fact that Nami 10 Shemesh because the 10 Shemesh should be included amongst the that their skin is like their busser. Rav Tanhum has a dinner with a tuna. The Tony 10 Shemesh and he actually has a version of the mission that includes the 10 Shemesh. No problem there. I have a ton of done like Tony 10 Shemesh. Everything Tony done so far could be a hooter to also busser gish according to you you go busser gish to which means the texture. It's like a vara whether or not you convey the tuna it's whether or not how hard it is. Would be gish to the whole tuna and the tuna can review that have a with the texture of the skin of the whole tuna. But in there's no real about how to read the it's really just a question of let's take a look at the texture and we'll decide based on that. And this is where we'll call it. We'll pick it up with the two dots. Remember the tomorrow.