Chullin Daf 121

All right, daf kuf chof alef, this is shabbos is daf as we continue talking about liquefied issurim. We're just finishing up this discussion about Rebbe Yehoshua and Rebbe Eliezer about whether or not when the Torah is makkes trumah to bikurim, do we say dayno me no but uki ba'asra and not shlep over all the halachas or perhaps we learn all the halachas. Some even want to go so far as to say the whole idea of dayno me no me no is the same thing as ein hekesh l'mechtza. We're going to pick it up five lines from the bottom of kuf chof alef beis, had its non and this that it says in the mishna in the first perek of trumos l'gabei hilchos orlah that in saf kinus arboy mishna marla, that you're not going to get malkus if you drink orlah juice. You pour yourself a cup of orange juice from an orlah tree. You don't get malkus. Ella al yitzman azaysim umin anavim except from olives and grapes cuz the pasuk by trumah was talking about zaysim umin anavim and therefore you won't get malkus for liquefied orlah for any other peros. Money, who's going to be the tanna of that mishna in trumos? It'll be Rebbe Yehoshua. He de'amar dayno me no vi'uki ba'asra. So he yesh his maskim to the hekesh. It's only l'gabei zaysim umin anavim that it keeps the din of trumah when it turns into liquid. But liquid coming from other peros will not remain trumah. The gomer lula bikurim trumah. And then you have step two which is learn the halacha of trumah from bikurim that also in a case of bikurim the only peros that are going to maintain the same din as where they came from is going to be oil and wine. Moving over to mad alef, v'hoder maysi lah l'orlah pri pri mibikkurim. And then step number three will be that you learn orlah from bikurim from that g'zeirah shavah of pri pri and that's why it'll only be oil and wine you get the malkus. Okay, that's the end of that whole sugiyah. Then the mishna said v'ha elal that the elal is mitztaref with the basar to be mashlim the share for tumas ochlin but not for tumas nevelas. So what in the world are we talking about? My elal. What is elal besides an airline? Rebbe Yochanan amar martika which Rashi on top says it's a very hard part of the neck and the spine. It's something inedible. Reish Lakish amar basar shepolat to sakin. It's the basar that sticks onto the knife when you're flaying the animal. Cuz you can imagine when you're scraping off the or on an animal there's going to be little bits of meat that come off along with it. So may save it they asked Reish Lakish from the pasuk by Iyov where the pasuk says ul matam teiflei sheka raifei elil kulchem. And it has this word elil in the pasuk where Iyov's friends come to me machazikim and they're saying whatever they got to say. So, Iyov tells them that it's a bunch of sheker that they're saying and he calls them the Raifeh Elil, which is like the doctors of gornisht. Elil is like elilim as in avodah zarah, that they're false. So, Bishlam El Am Amar to you're going to teitch Elil as Rebi Yochanan did that it means martika, that part of the neck. De Lav Bar Fu, it can never regenerate. It's the part of a body that is once it's broken, it's going to be broken forever. El Amand Amar Basar She Holatah to Sakin, but according to Reish Lakish says that's the pieces of meat off when you're flaying the animals. It could possibly be put back and regenerate back in its place and therefore reconnect with the basar. So, why are we going to call that Elil according to that shot? If you take the Gemara, well, it depends cuz there's a difference between the Lashon Mikra and Lashon Mishna. But, Elil de Krah de Kul Alma Pligi, when Elil is found in a pasuk, everybody is maskim it means martika and it means that part of the neck. But, Ki Pligi, but Elil de Masni'san, that's where you have the machlokes of Rebi Yochanan and Reish Lakish. Tashma Reish Lakish brings a raya from Reish Lakish from the latter part of the Mishna because this Rebi Yehudah Amar Elil Machunas, the Elil of an aveilah that was gathered to together. Im Yish Kaza'yis be Makom Echad Hayav Lav, that Rebi Yehudah says the Elil is going to be nismach from this hilchos tumas aveilah only when it's spread around. But, if a kaza'yis was gathered together in one place, it will be blay in aveilah. And therefore, if you eat it, you're going to be chayav malkos for eating aveilah. And as Rashi says, if you touch it, you go into the Beis Hamikdash, you'll be chayav kareis. We'll come back to that in a minute. Line up, but on that member from Rebi Yehudah Amar Huna, Rebi Shmuel Kinsa'i, this is when you intentionally gather it all together, that the kaza'yis of Elil blay in aveilah only when you are machshiv it to put it together. Now, if Reish Lakish Amar Bishlam El Amand Amar Basar She Holatah to Sakin, according to Reish Lakish who says is this meat that gets ripped off when you're skinning the animal, kind of the kaza'yis machayav, if you gather all that strands of meat into one place, you'll be chayav because you're demonstrating an achshaveh at that point and it will then be chayav. El Amand Amar Martika, if you're telling me the teitch of Elil is this part of the neck, so ki ikka kaza'yis machayav, who cares you gathered together these inedible parts of the animal's neck? Eitz Balmu, the teitch of martika is like eitz and no matter what, it wouldn't be considered an aveilah. And hey, yes, we were willing to entertain the idea that it had tumas nevelah. But to go so far as to call it busar, nah, that's not shiyach. And al liba d'Rabi Yehudah, plikin, according to Rabi Yehudah, both Rabi Yochanan and Reish Lakish are not going to argue, because when Rabi Yehudah used the word elal, he was talking about the busar that was coming off when you're skinning the animal. But kipliy, where is there a machlokes? That's only al liba d'Rabanan, which is the shitas Tanna Kamma in the Mishnah that elal can be mitztaref to the shiyur beiyah for tumas achlin. But Rabi Yochanan omer, marteka cannot be mitztaref, that not only is it this meat, but also the marteka. But Reish Lakish omer, dafka busar shipalta d'tisakin, only that kind of meat that came off when you're skinning it, aval marteka is takah lo mitztaref. So just getting back to that Rashi that we had mentioned earlier, so Rashi had said by the elal hamuchnas im yesh k'zayis makom echad yichayev, and then Rashi said they're chayav for both things, both the achilah of the nevelah and the tumah going into the Beis Hamikdash. Tosafos jumps on this because there's no reason that the achshavei of your collection into the makom echad, that shouldn't have any impact on issurim. We only say that idea of being machshiv something for like the g'mar melachah for tumah. And therefore Tosafos says, and therefore the bittul of the elal of a nevelah is only going to be mevattel l'kappei its ability to convey tumah, but not to take off issurim. And miduchki sah, if a person eats it, even without actually gathering it together, you're automatically being machshiv it when you eat it. So Tosafos holds that if you eat the elal, you're going to be chayav malkos for nevelah anyway. But Rabi Yehudah meant to say that you can also be chayav kareis for touching the elal and then going into the Beis Hamikdash if you gather it together k'zayis of it. But the Tosafos Rosh comes to defend Rashi and explain that we do find achshavei by issurim, and it's not as uncommon as Tosafos wants to suggest. One classic example that the Tosafos Rosh doesn't bring, but you might be familiar with, of course, is the is the chacham tzvi by bal yirah bal yimotzei, that even if you hold chatei she'eirus ossur min haTorah, but the crumbs in your house you're not chayav for because you're not being achshavei. It's passive, they're just sitting in your house. But if you do a ma'aseh to be machshiv it, then you'll takah have the issur. Back to the Gemara. Hai busar shipalta d'tisakin, this busar that comes off when you're skinning the animal, heichi dami? When is it shiyach that it could be mitztaref with the other busar to have the shiyur needed for tumas achlin, but it won't have tumas achlin on its own? Ee d'chashvei if you plan on eating it, then I feel about bein nafshay mitamei, because even if it's not usually eaten, but l'ma'aseh, if a person intends to eating it then it will be if you never planned on eating it anyway and therefore it shouldn't have a dinner even after the talking about where you wanted to eat a part of this kind of you never identified which part that means that even if there is a worth of it's not going to since you never intended to eat all of it and some of it certainly considered not food. that the animal has different parts that were removed from it some from another animal and some from the knife we don't know which piece of meat came from the animal and came from the knife so the part that came off from the animal well that still has a dinner cuz there was no any intention to be but the part that came off with the knife that was a conscious bit also that's where you're going to have the to combine to make the then we learned in the mission in the first paragraph of the beak if you look at the wide line of it says beak so it's fun when gives us a lot of like an English anyhow the beak and the claws of me or me or me they can be they can pass to something else and they can be to comprise the sheer of practically a beak is inedible but we're talking about the lower part of the beak which apparently is not true though it's not edible Papa the lower part of the upper beak apparently that is more edible the claws or it's that part of the claws where they are actually inside the the root of those claws and therefore they're more soft and they're to eat the mission that said the horns can also be to of the that part of the horns where it's at the head and if you would tear it off it would bleed and therefore it's soft and somewhat edible the mission then said if a Yid shechts to for a and it's still mefurkeses, it will be metamei to misaiklin but will not be metamei to mis nevelos until it really dies. That's what the Mishnah had said. So, Shimon there are tenaim that learn that by Yisrael b' temei'a, if a Yid is shechting a non-kosher animal, tahara or a is shechting a kosher animal, for there to be tumas ochlin they need to have the machshava while that animal is mefurkeses so that it could be now given to a to eat. As well as the hechser, meaning al yedei liquid, because food is not susceptible to tuma unless it has a hechser from one of the yad shachat dam liquids. Mayim, tal, chalav, vash, shemen, yayin, or dam. And since dam is one of those liquids that can make that hechser, when a Yid is shechting a kosher animal it's automatically hochsher l'kabel tuma al yedei that dam. So, if a Yid is shechting a non-kosher animal or a is shechting a kosher animal and the animal is still mefurkeses, that basar requires a hechser from another source before it can be mekabel tuma because the dam that's produced from that shechita is not going to cause a hechser. And the reason is because a hechser is only liquids that are considered a mashke. And dam is not really in that category. Unless it's a dam that's produced from a kosher shechita because the Torah compared that kind of dam shechita to mayim. The other kind is going to be dam chalalim, which is also considered a mashke because a lion will drink it. And that's specifically talking about an animal that is decapitated by hitting it from the back of the neck. But stam animal blood coming from a regular wound is not able to be mekabel tuma. So, therefore this basar from the animal that's mefurkeses requires a hechser from another source in order to be mekabel tuma. So, why do I need this kind of hechser? The halacha is when something is ultimately going to have a tuma chamura beyond just tumas ochlin, it doesn't need it to have the hechser l'kabel tuma. And this is going to have a tuma chamura because it's going to become tumas nevela. As we say, leiboy hechser. Did Tani de bei Rabbi Yishmael, when the water goes on those seeds, af kol she'ein tzofui l'tamei tuma chamura tzorech hechser. But something that is really going to have a tumah chamurah like the dead animal carcass, it it does not need hechser. The Tanya and we also learned in a braisa from Rabbi Yishmael ben Elisha that an aveilah of a kosher bird requires machshavah that I'm going to call this food for the in order to make it shaiyach l'kabel tumah, but ain tzirchah hechser because it does not need to be wet al tzirchah l'kabel tumah b'nei turning over tumah base sh'siflah tumah tumah chamurah. It's going to have that din of nivlah sh'siflah tumah that's metamei b'base av leah. So again, we see that oichlim that are going to ultimately have a tumah chamurah don't require hechser. So why does Rabbi Asi say that the beheima t'meiah that's k'shechatah by the yid or a kosher animal that's shechatah by a that is m'fargeses requires hechser l'kabel tumah? Omer Chizkiyah "Chail d'yachol l'gairo l'amido l'fachos m'k'zayis." You know, the animal's actually different because you could theoretically make each piece of the animal into less than a k'zayis while it's being m'fargeses. And therefore, since theoretically each piece of basar might never become tamei with tumah chamurah of neveilah, it needs to have a hechser from liquid in order to be able m'kabel tumah. And that's how Rashi teaches it. You could technically take a cow and break it into smaller pieces that are pachas m'k'shiyur each one that they won't have the shiyur of the tumah. And the Ramban says, "While that's true what Rashi's saying, but it's really not shaiyach take this animal as m'fargeses and make it into a few thousand small little pieces." So the Ramban adapts Rashi's idea and says, "During the pirchus, you could cut off some of it and make those pieces smaller than a k'zayis and those pieces won't ever have tumas neveilah." Okay, but l'ma'aseh, this is Chizkiyah saying that it's yachol l'gairo l'amido l'fachos m'k'zayis, it's certainly naming a that the animal that's m'fargeses may never ultimately have tumas neveilah, but certainly while it's being m'fargeses, it's not going to be metamei tumas neveilah. Frechti Gemara "Omer lei Rabbi Yirmiyah l'Rabbi Zeira, "Who may have heard Chizkiyah that m'fargeses not going to be metamei tumas neveilah?" Aivah itmar Shmuel v'Shnai Omer Rabbi Shnai Omer of an animal that's not kosher. V'adain im m'fargeses, we have a machlokes. Chizkiyah Omer "Ein lo eivarim." It's not going to have the issur of eiver min hachai. Rabbi Yochanan Omer "Yesh lo eivarim." It is going to have the issur of eiver min hachai. Chizkiyah Omer "Ein lo eivarim." Because once right schneim have been cut, it is halachically dead. And even though it's thrashing about now, you're not going to have an issue of but Rebbi because love may say he that according to Rebbi the status of the animal can't just be to take away it has to be like the lollipop guild said, she's not only merely dead, she's really most sincerely dead and the animal stops moving. That's what the Rebbi is asking according to since the animal is legally dead calls minus being the heart should already have a din of and therefore it should already have its while it's being all my legs back to Rebbi you also there is this kind of purgatory for the animal over here where it's being and it's no longer alive but it's not quite dead. So therefore it's not going to have the issue of but it's not yet to make goofa this thing we just quoted it's not going to have but Rebbi yesh Rebbi Rebbi You should really sheet in your hand that it's still yes from the turn of now we're going to quote a big bracer and we're going to see there is going to be calls minus being the turn of not kosher animal for a guy. So this is the show if it's still thrashing about the time of and then here comes the big line parish may not keep parish high it still has the status of being alive hence we now have this member that sounds just like Rebbi there will be from a busser a parish may not keep parish which is not going to tell me because you have to have an entire aver not just a piece of meat yeah feel that means even after the animal finally stops moving the issue of never went away because it got separated while it was still alive. Continues the bracer after I write let's say only one of these two were and if you do on one of these simanim, that's enough to take away the tumas achlin. But nachera, if you skip the shchita altogether and just do a nachera, ain ba tumas achlin. Of course, it will become tuma once it finally dies, but kol zman it's still thrashing about and being mefarcheses, there is no tuma. Vi avei kechavim sheshach baheima tairly shalom mefarcheses, the opposite case. Let's say a is shachting a kosher animal for a yid and it's still now being mefarcheses. The halacha is metuma tumas achlin aval lei tumas nevela. It will have the tumas achlin because there is the parallel case of a yid who would shach a kosher animal and that's enough, as Rashi explains, to make it have the tumas achlin. Ever a pareish mimena kapareish min achai, kol zman it's being mefarcheses, it still has a din like it's still alive. Ubosar pareish mimena kapareish min achai, and while it's being mefarcheses, if there is basar that separates from it, it's going to be considered like it came off a living animal. Vi asur livnei nach and therefore that basar is going to be asur to a vi a feel acher sh'teitei nachra, even after it finally is totally dead. Shach al achad o reivei achad, let's say the shachts one of the simanim or reivei of one of the simanim and now the animal is being mefarcheses, ain metuma tumas achlin. That's tucking not enough. Nachra, if he skips shchita and just stabs the animal, ain ba tumas achlin. And this braisa is still going. Shach al achad bimakom she'einah oisa treifa, let's say the cuts the animal in a way that wouldn't make it into a treifa. Rashi's examples could contain chatzi konah. Ubai Yisrael migomra, and the yid came and finished the shchita, he did the last part of it. And the halacha is ksheira, even though the shchita has been done by a yid, but here the yid who did that critical final part of the shchita is going to be machsher. Shachat Yisrael, let's say the yid shacted everything, bein bimakom she'einah oisa treifa bein bimakom she'einah oisa oisa treifa. Ubai acham migomra shchitasa den psula, because then the critical part was done by the And finishes off the braisa, hareitzu she'achlinu baheima kaim sh'teitei nachra, if you want to eat from an animal before it dies, chatech k'zayis basar mibeis hashchita, you could take a k'zayis worth of basar from the makom shchita, from that area that was already geshachtin before the animal dies and and since it's exposed at the makom shchita, you don't have to skin it. Umelchu yafeh yafeh umedichu yafeh yafeh, salt it, wash it well. Umamtinu ad she'teitei nachra, then wait until the animal finally dies, vi achlin you can eat it avei kechavim vi acher Yisrael mutar. why do you have to wait till the animal finally dies to eat it? Because there's Rashi brings that there's a possible and Rashi's quick to point out that it's only a dinner upon and it's not a dinner because the animal totally you're allowed to technically eat it just you should wait till it's totally dead. About this Rashi that argues with other I can't remember if it was a and was Tyler about understanding the whether it's or Gava. This my friends is where we will call it and pick it up with Rashi for Sunday's stuff.