Bechoros Daf 34

Okay, daf lamid dalid. Thursday's daf. Yesterday we talked about the Mishnah about the Bechor dam, which sounds to me like compartment syndrome. That if you don't do a bloodletting, the animal will die. So, the shailah is, even though there's usually an issur that you can't inflict a mum upon your Bechor, maybe in this case you can because the animal's going to die without this. So, the Gemara wanted to be tied in on a broader shas topic, which we were machlik with svara. Now, the Gemara is going to pick it up about 10 lines from the bottom of lamid gimmel amud beis. We are talking about kroy plegi v'hacha b'kroy plegi. Don't stell to the case of the trumah, where it was safek trumah and that could be also where there was already forfallen, so you don't have to worry about it. Or there still would be an issur being metameh safek trumah. But, that case has its independent psukim. Likewise, the Bechor has its independent psukim. D'amar Rav Hillel bar Abba bar Yitzchak amar Rav Yochanan, "M'chameitz acher m'chameitz." Everybody's masking that if you go ahead and you are m'chameitz, you make chameitz after already the mincha was already chameitz, shuchayav. The second guy is still chayav, even though it was already chameitz. D'ksiv, "Lo ya'aseh chameitz v'lo ya'aseh se'or." And also says a second time, "Lo ya'aseh se'or." Even though already that issur of se'or was already nichlal in the original lav, the independent lav here is to tell you that every ma'aseh of chimutz is still going to be chayav. Continues Rav Hillel bar Abba d'Rav Mesharshiya acher mesharshiya. The issur of se'or is by a beheima, even if the animal already has a certain level of se'or, it's not going to be able to propagate. And still yet, you are mesharshiya it nachamu, sh'hu chayav. D'ksiv, "M'lo echav k'sos, v'nasuk, v'karus." These are different types of things that you could do to the animal to be mesharshiya it. They will all be chayav. And we're asking him, "Al achas k'ma v'chayav al neitek, k'l sh'kein sh'lacheira that level of detaching is already nichlal in the chayres. So, why does the Torah have to asser that also? Ela l'havai nisik acher chayres, sh'hu chayav. So, despite the fact that they're masking in the previous shailah but by a Bechor, they might be machlokes because lo nichlaku ela b'matal mum b'mum. D'Rav Meir sover kol mumim y'hei bay, v'Rabanan soverin tamim y'hei el Hashem. So, that's going to be the psukim which is going to be the source of their machlokes for Rebbe Meir. How does he understand high tumim u'reim my avodah like I think the market is my boy about could be he needs it to be an animal that already had a mum before it became hegdash. Then in such a case where the animal was never shachted being a carbon the issur of being matil mum is not going to be there. But if the animal was first hegdash and then later on became a baal mum that issur to make it nochal mum will also still stay. But the commercial baal mum is shita? Obviously there's no issur of being matil mum if it was a baal mum dikla baal mum it's like a palm tree. In other words it's not shachted to a mizbeach. You wouldn't need a mum. So you're right that mum is coming to be the psulim meaning these carbonos that develop mum after and it's after their pidyon. Now you think after their pidyon it's psul and but still according to the chachamim after gizeila and avodah there's still issurim shaya after the pidyon. So baal mum let psul mum. So you might have had a because of the issur of gizeila and avodah could be there might also be an issur of being matil mum. It sounds a little bit like that that we talked about psul mikdashim. Is it a new issur of gizeila and avodah or is it a remnant of the original kedusha? That could actually be the chachamim's maskana perhaps whether or not there's been an issur of matil mum. V'rabbonan nami kol mum yavo. So how are they going to darshan the kol mum yavo? According to the Gemara you know what the ribus is coming for? L'grama hu d'asi. That you can't even be matil mum al y'dei grama. The Tanya is the braisa that says mum yavo ainly. Moving over to el sh'lo y'tein b'mum min sh'lo yavi the el u'vatikvin al she'lo y'tzu kol mum. That you can't put the dough and this way the dog is going to come and this way the dog is going to come and he's going to nibble away at that dough and the animal will have quite an eerie feeling and it will develop a mum. So tam u'm'lamed kol mum echad mum kol mum. Not just a regular mum that you're doing but even a mum as a result of a grama. Usually grama is not an issur d'oraisa. Grama might be assur but it's always a step removed. But here we're learning that there's a special drasha that even min ha Torah Rama of being matlum is going to be ossur. So that's by bachar. Now by safek truma, Hacham Akiva pleigi, d'amar R' Yehuda u'R' Shmuel, v'chein amar R' Shimon v'chein amar R' Nachman amar R' Bar Avuha, d'ani heneini soti l'cha es mishmeres trumosai. That you have to take care of your truma. It says trumosai, which is lashon yachid. So R' Eliezer sover that he looked at the word of trumosai that it was lashon rabim. He said truma zakah u'truma m'duber, achas truma t'hara v'achas truma t'luya, meaning that safek truma. D'amar Rachmana ovdei zeh shimu u' you have to take care and be careful with the truma that might even be tamei from making sure it doesn't become vadai truma. But R' Yehoshua trumosai lashon yachid and therefore the Torah is only being makpid on the shimu of a certain kind of truma that's vadai tahor, but not the one that's safek tamei. So R' Eliezer sover yesh eim l'mikra that you give a primacy to the way you pronounce the word, but R' Ami the braisa says b'bigdei ba, that he can't sell the alma when it's b'bigdei ba. What does that mean? Kivan she'peirush talisa alav, once he spreads his talis over her, which is an expression of marrying her. Shuv einah reshus l'mocher, therefore that now the father can not be mocher her into avdus even if later on she becomes an almanah or a grushah from her former adon. That's all different R' Akiva that you give that primacy to the way the word is pronounced and therefore since it's b'bigdei, we pronounce it that way about spreading the garment, meaning which is which is an expression of marrying her. Incidentally, there's a Rashash here that talks about the badeken that we do at a chasanah. That's why the chasan covers her by the badeken. K'ponim, R' Eliezer omer, he argues and says b'bigdei is learned kivan she'bogdah bo, once the girl's father has been bogad, meaning he betrayed her by selling her into avdus, shuv einah reshus l'mocher, he can no longer sell her a second time. So R' Eliezer, that primacy is in the way it's written, which is b'bogdei, which is lashon of betrayal. So therefore we can't learn trumosai with the pronounced way of lashon rabim. So R' Eliezer u'R' Akiva Hacham Akiva m'fligi that R' Yehoshua sover haruyah l'cha shimu. That pasuk mishmeres trumosai is that anything that's ruy, meaning it is vadai tahor, that's what you have to do shimu. If she ainah ruyah l'cha liteishmar, but if it's safek tamei and therefore we practically can't be using it, you don't have to do any kind of shima. But, this truma that is something to mean is also really shy to you. How? Should be a video video to run out. It's possible that you can get the head for it in the future if it shows up and said that it never came to me in the first place. And therefore, it is kind of in your shima. >> Your attention, please. Paging Joseph and Hannah. Please report to me security. >> I'm going to be with a lot of karate shima. What's the shima? >> May I have your attention, please? >> So, hey Rebi Shima. What are we talking about? Our shima from the mission that you're allowed to do the damn on this behaima even if it's going to make a move. He didn't say that this kind of move is going to allow the behaima to be so I had over shima government. You think we never heard that shima says that over shima is going to be which is essentially what you're saying that the whole Rebi Barashi over karate we pass that after shima is government. For a shima well the whole karate shima that over shima is government. For a lot of money and learned the Rebi shima without saying the shima and but the way he taught it was the following way that Rebi karate shima the shima a lot of karate shima. So, why did Rebi have to tell us that shima holds that that's going to be a lot of karate also. The whole Rebi shima the brice. It must be that Rebi was talking about Rebi shima by the brice and meaning that that happens this makes this animal right for a shima. And we have a precedent for this because Rebi shima Rebi shima Rebi shima Rebi shima Rebi shima. The brice. It's like the mission. We know it's the mission. In your and therefore, it's like the mission. Had shima is in the mission. If someone makes a hole in the ear of a mission, how is it that he can never shima this actual mission. >> May I have your attention, please? >> He is forever stuck. Sure, right now we're not happy with this guy, but if another subsequent mum shows up, well, then he could shacht it. So, the Gemara will be kind of like this idea that he could never shacht it. It's like a lifetime ban on this shchita. Do we find such a shchita by Rabbi Eliezer? There are many. The Mishna in the seventh perek of negai'im says, "Misha lai ba'heres, if someone finds a tzara'as ba'heres on his guf, then niktza, and he cuts it off, he's going to be tahor." We're talking about where he was niktza, so where he cut it off b'shogeg. He'll be tahor. But, kotza miskaven, let's say he b'dafka cuts off this negai tzara'as. That's which is super assur. He's not allowed to do that. So, right now, he's still tamei. But, Rabbi Eliezer omer lo k'she yivalai lai nega acher, if another negai tzara'as shows up on his guf, he'll be tahor. He may not He will then become tahor at that point. He'll even become tahor from that first one. The chachamim omerim, "Achu difrach the kulai." He's going to stay tamei until the entire nega covers his whole body, which is the halacha that if a negai tzara'as covers an entire body, it becomes tahor. "Oi, achu timoit ba'harte mikigris." Or unless the ba'heres becomes smaller than gris, which is hard to understand because didn't he cut off this negai tzara'as? So, how's it getting smaller? So, Tosefos has a shat. But, in the meantime, you see over here that according to Rabbi Eliezer, he doesn't give this lifetime ban on the guy who cut off the tzara'as, but rather he'll become tahor once he develops another negai tzara'as. So, why would Rabbi Eliezer say that this guy who was makel mum in his ba'har can never shacht it forever? So, everything Rabbi Eliezer says is the omer tzavayu ki konas Rabbi Eliezer. When is that going to be a permanent ban on this guy who was makel mum? That's only by things like a ba'har, which is related to his money. But, b'gufel konas, in things that are involving his guf, like the tzara'as, Rabbi Eliezer's not giving this guy a permanent knas. And then, what's the chelek? "K'she m'mainai ikel d'shilum lavan." When it comes to his money, he might do it again because he wants to shacht the ba'har outside the Beis Hamikdash. So, in order to discourage him, we're going to give him this permanent ban. But, "Gufai me ikel d'shilum lavan." When it comes to the ba'heres on his own body, is there any rationale to say that he might come to do the aveira of cutting it out? No. He's not going to want to do that because he might become tamei forever. Cuz he may never develop another negai tzara'as. He can't control that. And, therefore, there's no need to create this kind of a chumra of giving him a lifetime tumah. Omer Rava, "D'Rabbi Eliezer o d'Rabbi Eliezer kasha." Why is the steering wheel leizer between Bachor and Baheris. But the rabona the rabona like kasha. Why are we only asking the rabona? Isn't there just as much a steer on the shitas of the rabona? So Ella different shot. To be a leizer to be a leizer like kasha because of the svara of when you have to create this knas by Bachor. But rabona and rabona nami like kasha. Why? Because of the might of knasua. By the case of the Bachor we gave him the knas dafki in that which he was perpetrating. Right? He was trying to make the Bachor a mumzi can shacht it. No, you can't shacht it. Over my oven knasua. Here by the case of the Baheris they dafki gave him the knas in that which he did. But my oven mishrei. In other words he stays tamei on his goof. In the case of the Bachor with what did he intend to be madrit behind mumah with this mum that he inflicted on this animal. And therefore behind mumah knas rabona. It makes sense that should be his knas. In other words by saying the behind mumah lay lishrei. But my oven knasua. Here by the case of the Baheris they also gave him the knas like gabi that which he did wrong. Because I have no tohora now shaim I can see it. He wanted to say hey I'm going to make myself tohor by cutting off this old Baheris. So by katzitza knas rabona. So they knas him with this particular Baheris it's going to be looked at as if it never was cut out. But in another negas tzaraas forms itself. And therefore even if another negas tzaraas appears he will now become tamei based on that original one as if it never went away. Boy rabona now has some independent trials. He tohor when the mishna says according to rabona leizer that he will become tohor. Does that mean as soon as the second one appears that he immediately becomes tohor retroactively because that dindra rabona dikatoma goes away. Oy vayitohar tzaraas or when he develops that second tzaraas the second one has to heal first for him to become tohor. So the might of knas choson shiner lay nega. But the halacha is by a choson that gets the nega. Because this is not in the third perek of the negai'im says choson shiner lay nega naisen lay shiva yomim. We give him seven days of his shiva brachos before we are going to be bodik this nega to give him a psak. V'leil atzli we give him this kind of coolah both himself and for his clothing and his and it could be there's a gear saying even for his house. someone has on the Yom Kippur also we give him this time off. So if you want to say that what the mission is telling us that that when another comes he will become meaning as soon as another develops So he'll automatically be tar from that first one as soon as the second one shows up naturally should have to wait another 7 days for his broaches or we have to wait till the end of the Yom Kippur before we looking at it. In the meantime he should be totally tar. that he have to wait for the second one to heal even if we don't say the later one should be to me it will remain to me based on the first one. So which one is the right way to read the mission? The mission just says take two. another shila We said that if he goes ahead and makes and he makes his own wound on this and he's about to move in the and he dies Does that ban lifetime ban of not being able to share this Does it go to his Yorsham? That they also can't do that. In case of somebody who sells his effort to a guy which you're not allowed to do. And then he dies. That can't save him after all. Are they going to go and cancel his son that he's going to pay for this effort like he had that bought it. Maybe there's a look There's a half coin in the middle of this on the oven. So maybe there's more of a reason to do this but not by the car. even if you're going to say Let's say somebody who did his work during May and and then died before actually doing the work the rabbinate shouldn't give that to his Yorsham son and allow him to do that work that was scheduled by his father in order to avoid having that have some moment the father didn't actually he didn't do any of and he died before the Yom Kippur. He only planned on it. But how come I what's halacha here where that you don't have that kind of a swara? The day comes to mean maybe only he, the one who actually did the hatolas mum, there rabbonan made this knas by not allowing him to shecht the bakara. The halacha but he's no longer alive. I double the mind comes to rabbonan well eisa and therefore his yarish son now also takes on that same knas. So, I'm going to lay this out for you Zera to Yirmiya, Tnisua, we could bring a raya from the mishna on the fourth perek of shviis that soda should not be scrubbed to shviis, a field that was cleared of thorns during the shmita year which was not allowed to be done. Tzara l'motzei shviis, you can still plant in it the year after shmita. Netaiva and Nedaiva but and during the shmita year if he went ahead with serious malachas, he brought in the wagon loads and he did all this kind of fertilization or he had the animals fertilizing it, loy tzara l'motzei shviis, then he is gekansen and he can't go ahead the year afterwards and do any work on that field. Omar Rebbi Yossi Rebbi Chanina, naktina, we learned in the meseira, hetivu umes, if someone made the field better by fertilizing during the shmita year and then died, the night zera, his son can do it the year after shmita year. Amol l'didu knas rabbonan, it's nafka on the person who did the actual terrible thing but l'bray l'knas rabbonan. And with that we're going to stop. We'll pick it up with Omar Rebbi Abaya for tomorrow's daf.