Bechoros Daf 19

All right, daf yud tes. We get to finish the second part today. But first, let's pick it up with the Mishnah at the top of yud tes amud aleph. Let's say you have a bechor animal that's born al yedei yetzei dofin, Caesarean section. And then another one was derech racham after that, the regular way. So now we have a machlokes tannaim Rebbe Tarfon and Rebbe Akiva. Both of them have to be left to graze until they develop a mum. Vi achlu b'mum l'baalim. At that point they can now be eaten. Rebbe Akiva says both of them are bechor. Rebbe Akiva says neither of them are bechor. Harishon because it was done by Caesarean section. Didn't come out derech racham. The second one was not the first one because another one still came out even though it didn't come out derech racham, but it still is not first anymore. Now according to Rebbe Tarfon, we're going to see in the Gemara it's going to be because of a safek. And since it's a safek bechor, you're going to have a variety. You don't give the bechor to the kohen. So you're not paying to the bechor because of a variety. But at the same time it might have kedushas bechor. So that's why it has to be so the Rosh brings from the Ramban that we pasken like Rebbe Akiva because we pasken like Rebbe Akiva and we don't pasken like Rebbe Tarfon that it's only going to be a din safek. The Rosh brings from the Rishonim why do you have to come out with the Rebbe Akiva and not just simply say that Rebbe Tarfon was a safek and Rebbe Akiva was a vadai. So obviously you go with the vadai over the safek. Now this kasha from the Rishonim whose name was Rebbe Weinberg is particularly significant because the Nazis actually schlepped off Rebbe Weinberg after he said the shiur on daf yud tes and this might possibly be the last that he said before he was murdered. So Rebbe Razon when he was saying the shiur said it's for sure kedai to say over the last Rishonim. Anyway, what's the reason why we can't just say like an ein safek metzi me vadai kind of a approach when it comes to the psak? To which the Rishonim says a that it's not the that there's an actual safek by us. We don't know what the halacha is. And we need Eliyahu Hanavi to come and tell us what the din is. No, there is a matzev of safek that creates a din vadai for us that says a halachic status of safek. That is the halacha according to Rebbe Tarfon that it's vadai a din safek. Chew on that one. So therefore, of course you need to have the psak that we pasken like Rebbe Akiva against Rebbe Tarfon. All right, anyway, we're talking about the Gemara. What's the next Akiva and Tarfon? So as we foreshadowed we Tarfon is like a Bahar and over Yaveh Bahar. If Tarfon is Musafic whether an animal that is only a Bahar in one Nakuda is considered to be a Bahar or Yaveh Bahar. Because both of the animals that we're talking about in our Mishnah, one that came out Caesarean and one that came out after the other one came out Caesarean is only going to be one Nakuda of Bahar. So therefore the is going to be and she is told but for Akiva Bahar Yaveh Bahar and therefore neither animal is going to be a Bahar. Turn around on it. The Bryton says we got you get more meat than you should turn your dresses behind the cloud and sorry for the product. A cloud that requires a product. You know we used to have a cloud and a product. And that's just having a generalization and then a specific thing. But what happens when you the specific thing now comes and helps us understand what was the generalization. When we product that sorry for the cloud or the other way around that the product is only understood once you have the cloud. Okay, so what's an example? That product says Bahar Yaveh and the cave of the Mashman. I think that even is going to be in the cave. If it's firstborn it's firstborn. Tom Limer Zahar. Only a Zahar will have Kadusha Bahar. Now a Zahar if you would have just said Zahar Yaveh and the cave of the Mashman if it wasn't the first one that came out and the cave came out first. Tom Limer Patter Rachem. It has to be the first one to come out of the Rachem. Now you Patter Rachem Yaveh and the cave of the Mashman after another one that came out Caesarean section. Tom Limer Bahar. It's only going to be Bahar if it's a Bahar in all of these Nakudas. Meaning it has to be the first one to come out there after Rachem and it has to be the first one that came out of the mother all together. I believe there is a Yaveh from Yakovendan over here that lives in Ian Gordon and Rashi because Rashi learns that the cloud of product when he breaks down the come over here are the come from Parshas Parshas which are more come. That means that they are far away from each other. And Yaveh says the Gamara tells us that we don't make a cloud product where the come are not connected to each other nearby and certainly if they're not on the same topic. So he lives in. Back to the Gamara. We're coming out now that an animal is only a Bahar if it has all of the different products to make it into a Bahar. Omer Shaviola Baye racially tell me that Bahar. In the first line of the Bryton the Bryton didn't say Bahar to say that a Zahar born after a female is not a bechor. Alma bechor ledavar echad, havei bechor. That's what it's mashma. And seifa, but the end of the braisa can also they tell me the bechor. It uses the word bechor to say that a animal born derech rechem that's followed by one that came out yetzei dafen and is not a bechor. Alma bechor ledavar echad, may havei bechor. So, bechor is a stira in the braisa. Alma leisa the ba'al habayis derech shravia, not leilam bechor ledavar echad leihavei bechor. But reisha achi kamar, it's like a chisaron mechsara. That first part of the braisa which is mashma the animal is biglal this pasuk. This is what the braisa wanted to say, e zachor. If the Torah would have only simply said zachor yachol af il yetzei dafen, that it would still be considered a bechor. Tam alma leima petter rechem then has to be derech rechem. So, according to this version of the braisa, the first time it says bechor is not negeia to the first case because the animal is literally first. That's why the braisa didn't bother writing the pasuk. So, there's no stira within these different rules. But Ravina alma leilam bechor ledavar echad havei bechor. In other words, Ravina holds that the word bechor is also talking about animals that were only ledavar echad. But Ravina's going to argue about that seifa. The seifa achi kamar, this is what the braisa means to say, is al ka da'itach yotzei acharei yetzei dafen kodash. If you're going to think that a baby that comes out derech rechem after a yetzei dafen is a bechor, bechor the kodesh of rechem only. Why would the Torah even need to say bechor? Let the Torah just say petter rechem zachor takdish. You don't need to say the word bechor. Turning over to me days. In the ilui meitei heicha diyotzei in the keiva of the ozen. Maybe you're going to say, "Oh, beima might be the case of where it's not the first one to come out because in the keiva came out before the zachor." Well, I already knew that because mepetter rechem nafka. So, I still don't need the word bechor. So, the word bechor is going to be extra. Ela shma mina from the fact there's this extra word of bechor. Bechor lemiyutei heicha diyotzei acharei yetzei dafen. Even though it came out first from the rechem, it's still not going to be bechor because it was preceded by a yetzei dafen. That's Ravina's machlokes how to read the braisa. But alma leirav Achamei diftei leRavina, is al ka da'itach bechor ledavar echad havei bechor? And that the braisa is just figuring out what to do with the extra word bechor. Kena heicha diyotzei acharei yetzei dafen. It only works when one zachor comes out al yedei yetzei dafen. The zachor derech rechem and the other one comes out al yedei derech old fashion way, derech rechem. Dilay kodash. That's when the second animal won't have kedusha. Why? Imma'ut leida mebechor. That's what you're saying. It's this might from this extra word of bechor. The bechor lerachamei mika because this animal is a bechor klappe the rechem, but lezacharei let's say the first animal to come out yet to defend was the Nikkei but they're in the second still be both boxes but the prices doesn't seem to make such a it's saying all the cases when it comes out there followed by a year to defend is not a element forget we're going to go back to a buyer that is not including an animal that is with that and now we start the third paragraph in a row that starts with the same word this might be the only time in we now have the hammer but before we start the paragraph just mention that silverstein has a shallow over here about this man has a what do we do about a because we know that you don't want to have to do sure running around so how do you avoid having a problem of the so the best thing to do is what we're about to start learning about now about actually going to a with a guy because it's the guy show ownership will take care of the before that's not an option and if all comes to you and says hey I've got my flock am I supposed to make a on this animal so says actually the best thing to do is take it to the veterinarian and don't start making on it but what you could do is have the baby delivered cesarean section make it to a because then it'll come out as you won't have any problems with because you don't have any issues at all that would be the way to handle it if you don't have the option of a guy okay so let's say you buy an animal from a guy but you just don't know what's history but you just don't know if this animal is already given birth to an animal before you met it so what do I do no I mean well let's see how old it is because it's a goat well let's see how old it is because if it's a goat if it's within its first year so then and now it has a blood you know it's because there's no way that the biology will allow for this young animal to have already had a before this but we can't after that first year then you're right if it's an older animal that I bought from a guy I just don't know the history it'll take a there's a here and more expansively in that talks about the fact that we see ourselves that this is not the messias of these animals and Tosis talks about a nish tan ha teva. Al pan Rabbi Shimon Shita, year number one it's vadai mikaveh el sof rochel bas let's say the animal is a rochel it's a sheep and then gives birth to a zachar within the first two years it's bas then it'll be vadai but mikaveh el sof par chamor by a cow or a donkey ben shalish if it's within the first three years vadai mikaveh el sof yeah actually it's about the parah is that Tosis about the nish tan ha teva I'm sorry I kind of jumped the gun on that Tosis. Okay amar Rabbi Akiva back to Rabbi Shimon ilu be vlad behema nifteres if the halacha was only that al yedai the birth of an animal would patur bechor I would be maskim to you elo Rabbi Chamam said that even a non-viable birth of an animal will will patur that rechem from bechor and siman have vlad behema daka is tinuf by behema daka if you see a tinuf this discharge that's what's going to indicate that it had some kind of a miscarriage of a goses shilya this placenta that comes out be isha shfir v'shilya and leilenu by a person they see the shfir and the shilya but the point is there are other things that could have happened to patur a potential bechor continues Rabbi Akiva zeh haklal kasha yedusha bechora if I know for a fact that it already had its first vlad when I say vlad could be even a miscarriage ein kan lekayen klum and the choshe le bechora hare zeh lekayen because the kayen but safek ye'achal be mum elo baylem you have for the safek and then for you wait for a mum and then the baylem can just have it zokti gemara mikaveh el mai safek after that first year or by the other animals year number two or year number three it's going to be a din safek that's what Rabbi Shimon had said but the fact of the gemara halacha behema is kima she arrive for right behema she arrives the oldest shnosainu if that's the messias then most animals will still give birth during the first year and I buy a three-year-old animal why can't I just assume that it gave birth in that first year depending on if it's a goat or a cow or whatever kind of animal we're talking about because maybe I lied go arrive so what do you want to say leima Rabbi Shimon Rabbi Meir shfir leil maybe that's the point because Rabbi Shimon is really holding like Rabbi Meir that we're choshing for the mute and mute animals don't have vlad in their first year which the gemara says no we're not going to put Rabbi Shimon together with Rabbi Meir we don't want to do that and I feel like Rabbi Meir Rabbi Shimon is maskim to the Rabbanan who argue with Rabbi Meir they're not choshing for the muta but still kochi to the mayor, it's going to be a safek b'karov because as we both say ruba, when do we go ruba? That's ruba the eisa kaman. We're going to say no yes or no ruba where the numbers are right in front of us. Of all ruba the leisa kaman, we ask the rabbonan the rabbonan not going to go ruba. This gemara on its surface makes it sound like ruba the leisa kaman is a much bigger chidush, which you do seem to find gemaras kano lakon. We're going to talk much more about this whole sugia when we pick up the gemara on the ketana on tomorrow's daf.