Bechoros Daf 15

All right. Dessiat Sarah says daf. We were discussing the Mishna regarding being makdish a behem that already had a mum kav and contrasting that with the safe of the Mishna about mukdashim meaning animals that got mum after they were hooked. And now we're picking up from the second wide line on the Mishna had said one of these kind of animals that had a mum before your mdish when it dies you could still be paid. And this is a bigish because even though an animal's dead, it really shouldn't be. But apparently the T of Mishna does not require a and the animal to be alive to do a however if it's you don't have to worry about you even though now it is dead but because this is bias since it had before you were shim hold you could still do the padan as the mission says says an animal that you're could still do the because it doesn't require any because according to only requires and shim by an animal that had a before you were initially even though the intention might have been forious it doesn't matter because it had a mum first and therefore you could be after its own death because there is no rule of needing my time that the Torah says in reference to bema that you got to stand it and we had a does not require but that's all from and we have to see who these are because the Mishna didn't give us about this once they die they need to have a kur that means even an animal that had a before it became haggdish is in it and therefore since you can't do the pad because it can't stand up anymore you have no choice but to do a kvura Now who are these that we're talking about and Rashi coming up on is going to explain that on the bay are masked him that if it had a before it became it's not going to require so when arg is saying who are the areuing we're not talking about the over there in the you know who the are that we're talking about who these are the they learned can I get And that's also how the levy learned in the even which is never really for a carbon or an like are all to do the which we so how could the argue with that you're right doesn't work so well all right that which we already kind of foreshadowed that rash is going to say on that the raon in don't really argue with about what do they hold they do have with me you have to if they tak with that you could still do the assuming that the happened before theish why did say that our mission is going like she moving over to because it's not specifically we're saying that the over there in agree with about this so it seems Seems kind of like a misnomer for Rav to say it's time for according to if you are something argue with only things that were hooked and not those that were hooked. So therefore our mission isn't really gushmack to go like the raon because the end of the mission says inu that that if they die they have to be buried and the reason why they have to be buried is because since they were hooked when they had no they are and therefore since they need to have a and they can't stand up because they're dead therefore you have to bury them. So that part of the mission is connected according to Ray Schlokish's version of the Raon which is all animals that are hooked to for therefore our Mishna fits much better like the garam we assume we touch the reason why you have to do a is because since which you are to do you can't do you have no choice but to bury them but maybe that's not the reason why you're doing the burial maybe it's you can't do because that would of course be a bazillion for to go ahead and do it for now this that you can't do there is a significant tyis and papacama on nun giml with other about is the only time there's an isert to be for if it's not shy for people but let's say it's sh for people and you're just choosing to give it to the kov that might be different but either way argamar is asking aasha that maybe the is because you don't want to be paid for because lice of the animals in the vella so really The Mishna could still work like even if they hold like the way says that is not sharim if that was the reason and that the reason we're doing kav is because you can't be so the mission could have given us a more expansive case of let's say the animal became a traa where technically it can still stand and therefore you can still do still you do a but instead the tana talked about a case where the animal dropped dead and therefore there is no and therefore it sounds like the reason why you can't do you have to do is because it can't do working like not I'll tell you another why we said like because holds it according to thinks that your therefore the whole works like and therefore you have to learn what Rav said was it is going like and his plug okay that's all the first half of the Mishna the second half of yesterday's Mishna started talking about Classic sula mdoshim that means a regular good oldfashioned animal that your makdish it was a tim it was perfect and then it developed a m so here is one of theugis discussing that issue of mukdashim the mishna had said he bulu they have a pur of bkar and matan even after padia and as we're going to talk about there is a how to understand is it is it perhaps genuinely still heish but the terra created certain kushim to not allow you to bring it as a carbon but things like giz would be user because it's still hegdish It's just absol or perhaps no that's not the maybe really is but because it had a shish being heish before it developed the moon. So the terra assers it it's like new stuck on there like giz. So this is a kind of how to look at mdashim the briskar writes that it really is hegdish but we're just lowering the standard of the hegdish whereas the burim holds it's actually with special denim but it's not hegdish and there are ras in the garum. So Frank now, how do you know that and mdashim are going to be put from and matanis because we learned in a bry about mdashimu that the says you can eat the meat of this kind of mdashu just like deerv. So the terra being so specific over here is clearly trying to teach us something. So what are we learning? Because the only said by the but not based on this I would have only been but not so therefore the added also the to the list in order to tell me then the B says if that's tak from the then we should really take it all the way to the end by saying that just like the of the and the aisle is therefore the Tory said to limit how far you can take this heckish this dasha telling us that it does not take off the is of the briskov has a problem with this and you can listen to rabbi gross that discusses it now let's get into this why should there be a between these two things why once you're ped are we more likely to be thearum than the matanis and for the garam I would have been that were nift because it really doesn't apply to all the animals because it's only those firstborn. It's a wider net of what's therefore the says also from as well. If you want to take this Russia of comparing it to we should say also where there is no let's say there's no what would you compare these to in order to them from there is an so there's always so you really have no muck to say that there's no Dr. Papa back on says to if that was true then you should have had that same response when we said that like what would you say that these are compared to in order to be so but what did we did say the word tells us to only limit the but not about So why can't the also tell us that the or the will only extend to matis and not to a different terrorist about to mdash because is only coming to say that these animals that were paid from mdashim are going to have it's learned from the of that you can't eat from And this is talking about which we compare to. So my what is meant by if you're saying that we're talking about it's real blood. So even if these were the same as the nobody's m drinking the dam of it must have meant which has a header. Well the should have said it. You can't eat it. Why did meaning just say I would have thought the is going to only work in one way and the of is going to be working in another way of eating the of the from the when are you actually that's generic and that's why it would make sense that we need a heish should tell me that these mdash which are which are not you're not going to have the circaris and likewise the label that the p of you can't eat would tell me that if you eat you're going to be over a regular which is not going to bearis that's how we would understand the p of how can even suggest that the is coming to said for the B meant to be saying according to R at least had it not said that's of saying it's coming to then the Mishnet said that these that do not go back to being total and therefore is going to be and also there's other the How do you know that this is true says in regard to being you can eat this meat but giza you can't do it for the sake of shearing that means the misa of giza is user there's no act is on the giza itself and there's an important rush that's this that there's giza is only when you're being giz for yourself but if you're being giz for the health of the sheep then that would be mut as well giza is going to be user bosser You can only have its meat but you can't have its milk which is also is the milker or only the milking it is the says you can eat this meat but you can't feed it to your dogs turning over bays there's some that learn it the following way that you can you can eat their meat there's no you are allowed to be paid to them to feed them to the dogs. So this is connected to previous lotion and it's going to be then the said even after your the milk is going to be as well as it now let's talk about the like yesterday we talked about if you're telling me these were conceived and born after the so am I why should they be a nu they're complete they're like a so of course they're going to be mut just like the vlad of a so Now you could have a cash over here that it's already after Padilla but it's mdash and there are clearly mdash. So why is the gar so astounded at the havina of saying these are user they're not really the mothers but this is where the raises brings a nicaray that you see that you're paid the really are and they're not kachum anymore and it's a new isurum about giz that go on to these things and therefore that's why the is saying that there's no reason to think the vlad should have any kadusha and raz also spoke out another purum I think it was raishious who asked the kash that whatever happened to y if you're telling me that there's of giz why can't that is of giz be transferred onto the vlad. So he says a very makater is that the issiz is aul in the gavra. It's not a it's not a in theft of the actual animal. And the only time we say there's going to be a is something that from a iser becomes itself. That's when the thing itself is but especially like the way the rat is learning it's batsum isn't user. It's just the gavra has an isser to do the milking do the to do the giza these these actions but it's actually not going to have any must be talking about where this conception of this vlad happened before the mother's padia and the laida happened after the padia so even though it was n abra before the padia as rashi says there's still kaduca llahoo and you can't bring it on the mbe or sell it even and [clears throat] use the money for carbonas now the mission had said that these vlades are user as opposed to saying they're haggish it sounds like hiff If they were born before the mother's pad, they would actually begish. It sounds like because if the was that these that were born before Padilla are only user and not Hegdish, certainly the mission would have said the biggerish. Instead it says that'll be because the B says in reference to a carbon says we have that even the is aim and has to be brought as a carbon schlom is that if a animal is made into a substitute it also has to be brought as a carbon and by tumura only can become a tamura. Now that kaduca could also just be kadusha's benz. We need the dr to tell me you could bring it on the vladimas. From these brushes, I would only know about the vlad of aim and the tur of a is but how do I know that all these are also going to be okay for so fine that's how I know it's true but these from our Mishna that are born after the padia of the mother but lisa the mother was miss abra earlier so what do lisa do with these things because you can't bring it on And you can't sell it and take the money and buy other carbonas like Run is going to say soon. So what do you do with these things? Because any that are born before the that's already in the some say it can be brought on the and some say these are enough only for grazing meaning that you're not allowed to be ped them until they become Bali M. So therefore you let them graze until they develop a mum. So going back to our question Mate so these that are born after the mother's padia but lisa she was in this abra earlier what should I do with them what are you supposed to do so mason you lock it up and let it die because what else can you do to bring it on the carbon well you can't because they are coming from a kadusha remember it was born to a balis that was once for the and then went down a level because of the mum and it was also born after the padilla and left for kinu to actually do the pedia now on these animals. Well, you can't. Le alimi limit pion. Their kaduca is not strong enough to actually be typhus pigon. That guilt of the pigion won't help for it because its kaduca is not strong enough to be transferring onto the money and therefore making the animal. And the way Rashi explains this is that the uber inside the mother is part of the mother alim and the mother's padia is going to affect that uber as well because of and therefore the isra on the uber is currently only a dinder. So since betush has already been taken off because of the mother's padia, you can't be paid that again. So what do you do? Right before the you have in mind that you want it for that kind of carbon for the same kind of carbon that the mother was intended for. So Frankar, what do you mean? Right before you do the Padilla, you're going to do this for the Vlad. So it sounds like these are but we said before that you can't be pray to them. So what are we talking about? You're making it sound like before it but you can't do it. Know what meant to say was before you pray to the mother you decide to designate that vad as the same carbon as the mother was supposed to be because by saying that the vlad should be as a carbon the bum is giving it its egg in a kaduca independent of the mother. So therefore when the mother is nifa that padia will have no effect on the vlad and therefore the vlad will remain with the original kuja that it had and there and after it's led it should be a sto and then you could be that's actually rashita the rabbis actually says you can bring such an animal such a vlad as a carbon on the but rashi doesn't seem to learn that way rashi says clearly that you are you wait for it to get a m and then you're ped now the from the mishna is that these vlades are going to be user time what is the shot in what The Mishna said and it's a little unclear what is the Gumarra asking about Rashi has a few different Rashi's third and favorite is that what the Gumar is saying is that this that the Mishna says that these that were abra before the Padilla and born after the Padilla they're user so what's the reason for that soy we don't want people to raise different flocks of these kinds of that were because if they were mut to eat then the bum would wait around until they're born and that waiting around might cause people to be over the so in order to avoid that we just answered the alto together this that we had said you should have in mind that the blood should be brought as the same carbon as its mother what about designating it for a different kind of carbon you shouldn't do it only the same one as the mother so my time is because You don't get before you Those that are born after the are whereas the are born before the padilla are oser but they can be nift even when they are and not they could be brought as any carbon that you want. Meaning if thisish animal which is a balm was nift if it was carrying a vlad that vlad blabs ken together with the mother and then they could be brought as any kind of carbon. But before the Padilla that has kaducious is for one kind of a carbon and it should not be converted to another kind of carbon speaks this out over here in the only mitzvah you have is just the which is the mitzvah to do the figure how much it costs and use that money to buy other carbonas but let's say it was before it developed is Classic. Someone does The only thing you're allowed to do with it is to eat them. So this Bryce is saying that the of these that became where the preceded the cannot just go ahead and be for any other carbon that you want. So this is just like who said such a and lastly data that in the first part of the brace is coming to include Then of animals that first had a m and then you were them that you're not and that at the end of the bry moving over to that it's milk that such an animal has milk even after the that is still going to be user and we are going to stop here I will try to get some posted before yont as