Chullin Daf 51

All right, daf noon aleph. This is shabbos's daf and let's pick it up from the bottom of noon amud beis. Amaysa sh'beisa kisa'is, if there's a hole in this area of the stomach, the animal's a treifa. Tanna rabbanan in the braisa says, machat sh'nimtzas b'ubei beisa kisa'is, let's say you find a needle inside the wall of the beisa kisa'is. And we've learned it's a double wall and therefore mitzad acher, it'll be kasher if it's only from one side, meaning only from the inner wall of the beisa kisa'is and the animal's still going to be kosher because it's only if both of these layers become punctured. If it's only the interior one, then it will still be a kosher. However, mishnas dodim is treifa. If this needle goes all the way through both walls of the beisa kisa'is, it will be a treifa. Of course, assuming that this happened while the animal was still alive. So now, how are we going to figure that one out? Nimtza alaha kairas dam. Let's say you find actual blood where the needle was. Moving over to men aleph, then b'yadua sh'lifnei sh'chita, it's when the animal's still alive. That's why there's still blood flow and therefore the blood indicates this animal became a treifa before sh'chita. However, lo nimtza alaha kairas dam. Let's say you didn't find any blood on it, so b'yadua sh'lachar sh'chita because it won't bleed after it's dead and therefore you can be machshir the sh'chita. Now, higlid pi hamaka, let's say there's a scab over the opening of this wound, b'yadua sh'shlosha yamim kodem sh'chita, it's clear that it happened at least three days before the sh'chita for it to be able to get the scabbing. But lo higlid pi hamaka, let's say there's no scabbing over the wound, then hamaitzi m'chaveiro ol avariya, what does this mean? That means that the shochet who wants his money back from the guy who sold him the animal and now the shochet's out this money because he's doing sh'chita on a treifa. So he of course wants to claim it's mikach to'is. But the macher can say, "Sorry, it's not my problem. This happened after I sold it to you and therefore it's hamaitzi m'chaveiro ol avariya." Until you can prove that the animal was already a treifa b'sha'as mechira, you don't get the money back. There's actually an important Rambam though, when he brings this halacha, he makes the point, if it was higlid pi hamaka, you can get his money back even though you'd think that the macher could taina, "You've already shochted the animal. There's like a shinui on this animal. You can't still claim mikach to'is." But it's like the Rambam, yeah, you can still claim mikach to'is because that's the normal activity that you do with this thing. You only discovered the treifas afterwards. The Ra'an even takes it a step further and says that all you're doing is creating a safek treifa, but lemaisa a safek treifa, people are still bedealing minei and therefore ain mekach treifas gedolah mizu. In the Pischei Teshuvah when he brings this halacha says this is negiah to other kinds of things like an esrog. If you buy a boxed esrog and it turns out that it's not a kosher esrog, you still has to our sugiyah to say that you would also be the mekach treifas. For acting tomorrow my shul in the cubby the alma. We've had the past what is it like nine blocks so far available treifas. That this hole makes a treifa, this hole doesn't make a treifa. Nobody ever talked about blood. A hole makes a treif. The al fell gav de leika dam taruf mar. Even though if there isn't any dam on the scene of the hole, we still learn it's a treifa. So why is this so special all of a sudden than machat? Now we start caring about the blood. And for the gemara hasam leika me deila misrach. By other holes, there's nothing that the blood can stick to. So you don't have the maila of looking for blood. But hacha given deika machat, you got a needle making the hole. Same is it the keilim shechitu. Had [clears throat] that hole happened before shechita and therefore making into a treifa, misrach have a sarch. The dam would have been stuck to the needle and therefore you would see that dam. And from the fact that you don't, we can be mashir the animal. And Tosefta points out this would be the same thing not just with a needle but even with a keitz or anything that you would say that the dam can stick to. Amar lei Rav Safra le Abaye. Chozi mar it's over mar bonen to osam amar Rabba. Rav Safra says to Abaye, have you seen this talmid chacham who came from Eretz Yisrael the amar Rav Avira Shamani and he had said that his name was Rav Avira. Viomar and he had said maisa ubalif nei Rebbi machat nimtzas beuvei beis akaisis mitzade echad. It was once a shaila that was given to Rebbi about this machat that was found inside the beis akaisis where it was only on one side meaning the inside of the beis akaisis. Vitarfa. And Rebbi said it was a treifa. Which lechores connected the braisa we said because the braisa had said the needle has to go through and through both walls. So now Abaye is going to want to ask Avira more about this psak of Rebbi. So sholach lei, Abaye sent for Rav Avira to come. But lei osam le gabbei. Surprisingly Rav Avira didn't want to come talk to Abaye. Azal hu le gabbei. So Abaye said I'm going on my own. I'm going to go to Ravavira." Have a koi a igro, when Abaya got there, Ravavira was on the roof. Omar nechos mar venesia, Abaya said, "Can you come downstairs, Ravavira? Come off the roof and talk to me." And lay nachas pir Ravavira didn't want to go down to Abaya. Very strange. So sol hakula gabay, so Abaya went up to him. Omar lay, he said to Ravavira, "Amali gufa d'uvda heicha havei?" Tell me the details of that exact case about this machat because it seemed strange to him. Omar lay, Ravavira said to Abaya, "Mafta kneses anila ela me Rebbi Rava. I am the gabbai, the shul bouncer, the person in charge of seating by the great Rebbi, me Rebbi Rava." Which you have to work out how Rebbi Yehuda Hanasi, if that's Rebbi Rava, could be at the same time as Abaya who lived generations later. But be that as it may, Rebbi Ravavira was saying, "I had that job." Have a Rav Huna tzipaira Rebbi Asi mada, yeshuv lefono. Once Rebbi Huna and Rebbi Asi were in front of Rebbi uv oso lifnei Rebbi machat nimtzes b'vei Rebbi Asi mitzad echad and they brought him this machat of Rebbi Asi mitzad echad with a needle inside, but it's only on one side. And now here's the punchline, v'hofcha Rebbi. Rebbi turned it over to the outside, umatzah lecha kera dam v'sav blood. Oh, if he saw blood, that means that the machat was in there from the time before the shchita. V'tarfa, that's why Rebbi made it into a treifa. V'omer and he had said, "It may macha had there not been a macha before the shchita kera dam. So it must be from the fact that we see a kera dam, must be the machat made the wound before the shchita and therefore it's a treifa." So that was the details of Rebbi Ravavira's story. Omar lay, when Abaya heard this, he says to Ravavira, "Tarach tarach yelo gavra?" Speaking about himself, "You made me shlep out here all the way for nothing?" Like I came over here, I I tracked you down, I came to the roof just to find out a pushit halacha masnisa ni? This is our mishna. Hamaysis ubays akaysis shenikvu lachutz, that's when it's going to be treifa. But of course, if it's only from one side, it's not going to be treif unless you have this kera dam and therefore you know that it happened before the shchita. So Abaya seemed none too pleased. The Me'iri over here makes the point that Abaya would have been okay if he was going to learn one simple halacha, it would have been worth the effort and therefore we should make every effort we can to go even learn one simple thing from a Rebbi. Then the mishna said, "Nafal min hagag, if the animal falls off a roof and now we have for the v'ora. so if you within that same day without giving it a chance to see if it's not a treifa, you can't eat it. That's the mission. Let's say I left an animal on a roof and later I come back and I see it's not on the roof. It's on the ground. So I didn't see it fall off the roof and we don't know how it got down. So the is you don't have to that it fell. We can assume that it came off the roof not that it took the stairs but it jumped off the roof purposefully not it fell down and that's going to make the big difference whether or not they'll be a who got you to have a winner. There was a goat that Ravina owned Puma. It was sent it was on the roof and it saw through the skylight some of this this peeled barley on the floor. Well, this goat is not going to miss out on that yummy barley. So it jumped through the skylight all the way down to the floor. I guess that was a big jump. Ravina came to Ravina now to ask about the of this particular goat. How do I know he will not die? This that we said over from Ravina that you're allowed to assume it didn't happen from Islam immediately is it because it had something to hold on to on the way down? Is that the shot that we can be that it didn't really fall at all? But this animal that we saw jump through the skylight last night immediately didn't have anything to hold on to and therefore maybe it has a problem with maybe the reason was because the animal who shuts up itself because the animal who shuts up itself the animal says you know I can do this jump and the animal knows but therefore I know and therefore the animal here jumping through the skylight it knows that it can make the jump and it can stick the superhero landing on the ground and without getting hurt to which I'm a layer of a sheet says back to Ravina to Ravina I know I'm the it is all about the animal knowing its own limitations and if this animal decided it could jump from the skylight all the way down to the ground it can and we're not worried about again if we were just wait out the day it wouldn't be a we're talking about wanting to that that same day. He there was a female sheep otherwise known as a you like as in hey you I'm seeing the beginnings of a joke now that one time a deer was talking to a you and the deer says, "Hey you." And the you says, "Hello, deer." So, I'll go work on that joke and get back to you later. Meantime, I hear that the beer of a shad run carry bass riser. There was this that was dragging its legs behind itself. So, it looked pretty clearly like it was in some kind of trauma and now we're worried about the of arm. I should rain an act a. It's not that the animal fell off a cliff somewhere and now we have to worry about of arm. You don't have to worry about it so cuz you know why this animal seems to be dragging its hind legs? Because of the so, which touches as a cramp. And you know what the Hebrew word for cramp is? Take a look at it's crampa. So, [snorts] So, I guess an old French leg cramps haven't changed. Anyway, you don't have to for the despite the fact that it's slipping its legs like that. But the other should Yeah, but maybe there's something more serious happening with the animal. Maybe it's spinal cord was severed, which we know is a treif. So, after they took us out it was like and it took a had a severed spinal cord. So, had that to be for the right thing to be for. But, that if you see the animal dragging its hind legs, you can assume it's having a cramp rather than a severed spinal cord. And why is that? Because it's more common to have the leg cramps than it is to have severed spines. The animal that this is are going each other are touches it that the lambs are head butting each other. Either way, these animals are not playing so nice. They're hurting each other. They can hack it to and even though they're always in pain, you can say It's just this temporary fever that them. But it's not really a serious injury as a result of the injury. Enough of the other if they fell to the ground as a result of the then we have to for the treif. These sheep that were stolen. Now, why should sheep that are stolen have any kind of of because you toss them over the wall as you're trying to make your getaway escape. But the walk is still in his mission to get burned. guess if you were able to get those animals within the day of the Geneva, you don't have to and you can actually share them and not worry about treifas. You may be thinking is that how sheep are stolen by throwing them over the wall? Isn't this the famous Gamara in Bava Kamma about why is dollar be hey as opposed to Kfl because the Gamara in Bava Kamma 9 test says that the ganav is carrying it on his shoulders. So he's carrying it on his shoulders and therefore because he's already has that bizayon and therefore he only has to pay dollar not hey. So Teras Kamma says it could be really both. He's carrying it on his shoulders and he has to throw it over the wall he's only carrying it for a short amount of time. And although that's the that even for that short amount of time the Torah is on him and therefore he only has to give dollar instead of hey. Okay. I'll call on him. You don't have to be worried about these sheep that they were injured and became treifas when the ganav threw it over the wall because amast nayu shadaloo. When the ganavim throw the sheep over the wall, they land in such a way that it's not going to hurt them the ganavim want that the sheep or these rams that should run ahead of them as they make their getaway escape. But let's say the ganavim change their mind and return the animals and throw them back over the wall. Maybe they have a change of heart. Now we have to be worried about and that they may have become a treif because they're not trying to make them escape at that point and therefore they may have done a bad job and therefore they may have actually made them into treifas in the process. But we have to be worried about because they're afraid of getting caught by the police. If the ganavim want to do chuva, then chuva mal yasu who davide they're not going to want to injure the animals and therefore they'll return them in a good way. He ratio let's say you're hitting the animal on the head with a stick the whole club is on the and the stick went all the way towards the end of the animal towards the tail. Or else or can I get call or else you hit along the entire length of the animal. The point of this is that you're dispersing the hitness across the entire animal and therefore the slim apology the but the stick manifest itself in the middle of the back so there's more impact on only part of the animal then we have to for more of a the kitchen and also let's say the stick you're using has these kitray on it and knots and things on the stick that also might be more trauma for the animal. The if you hit the animal across the width of the back instead of the length of it also that would be a reason to be I'm assuming this is not the normal kind of little smackies but there's a big zets. There is no risk of for the base now the past just when you read this base it sounds like we're talking about the actual uterus of the animal you don't have to worry if an animal fell off a roof the base is affected by that. And that's how the actually learns but the does not learn that way. learns it's the trauma as a result of childbirth does not create a traifas which is a little hard to understand because we can see that animals survive after childbirth. Maybe some die but but basically you shouldn't need to wait 24 hours to see if a newborn animal survives you can assume that the base ain't by rub I have a that will bring you a because even a one day old baby turning over to this is talking about a human baby which is interesting that we can make parallel here but even a human being that was just born if it would see ziva it could be now it could be and any time there's a ziva as a result of something you can hang your hat on we don't say there's Thomas ziva and if we think that there might be as a result of the later well then there certainly would be something to be ziva zone but the not really a right because the price might be talking to if it's the baby was born all you day cesarean section so it never had that trauma of a regular birth. This is talking about this eagle should not have been born on that day if an eagle is born on you can on that same day well if you can on that same day clearly we're not worried about the and the trauma of the childbirth which is not you can on that same day this little baby calf was born also all you day so it didn't have that trauma. We have another this is talking about this is talking about that if the was born with its is considered and you can even and eat it on so of course the issue over there is the fact that it's not going to be but the point for us is that you can eat it on that same day and you don't have to wait 24 hours the trauma of its childbirth did not make any now I want to say the same thing she has to maybe that was born through cesarean well that can't be because it wouldn't have it doesn't come from the in the first place because of my day in the same way that the animal that's born is not going to be able to be brought in this so too it doesn't become a so clearly we're talking about a regular childbirth and you see that there is no of the birth so there's another way to get out of this right because she the animal did some kind of activity with its legs that indicates it's not a and it's going to be living so therefore even if there was a traumatic childbirth but because it was you don't have to be for any the of men when the have to kind of wrestle the animal to the ground that's not going to create a who enough of the called there was an ox that fell in the there was an ox that fell in the meaning he was wrestled down to the ground by the and we heard it we heard the ox and then the and all he took a stake from this thing he certainly was not for any I'm really what's your I'm really a rab when the animal knows it's going to be pushed down to the ground by the it does something with its hooves to anchor itself and protect itself so we don't have to be worried about the I'm really under if the animal stood up after falling then you don't have to wait 24 hours the very fact that it can stand up it did not suffer any but certainly needs to have a after to sheet to make sure no other treifas happened as a result of the fall. But halacha in its once it walks normally, it doesn't even require a bedika. You can assume that there is no problems at all. Rav Bar Ashi Amar the treif bedika. Even if the animal walks normally after the fall, you got to make sure there's no other treifas. Amar Poshte Yada Lamid if it stretched out its leg to stand up af al pishulay amda that's considered like it stood up. Okra Ragla La Halich if it raised its hind leg to walk af al pishulay it's also considered like it walked. Amar Niara if it just moved Lamid to stand up af al pishulay amda that would also be considered like it stood up. And even though there's a shaila whether or not we should be goires this, but Rashi and Tosfos do seem to have been goires it so we'll read it for hilchasa. Heicha d'nafla min agav b'lo yada if the animal fell off not intending to meaning it didn't jump b'amda b'lo halacha and it stood up and didn't walk treif bedika but but yet still in its place. Halacha bedika you can shecht it right away it doesn't even need a bedika and enjoy your barbecue. Amar Rav Dimi min Hardei n'fula this animal that fell sh'amru treif bedika k'neged b'nei mayaim. We have to be bedika but you got to be bedika in the kishkes in the b'nei mayaim. That's where you actually check out see the internal injuries. Papa treif bedika k'neged beis hachol kula. You got to check out the whole insides of the animal. It's not just the b'nei mayaim. Amar Rav Huna Mar Breider of Nechemia simonim and my what about the actual kon and the veshet the classic simonim of the animal. Do you have to check those out for risuk? Amar Rav Ashi said back simonim kashin etzel n'fila. Now those things are protected somehow or they're strong they're tough you don't have to worry about them and they don't require bedika. Amar Rav Yehuda what about birds? If she al p'nei mayaim let's say a bird hits the water and now the shaila is about the risuk of a bird which we assume is more fragile so what's considered like a real impact that could make us for the treifas of the birds. K'van she shat mole k'maso daya once it can swim the length of its own body which is not too far we don't have to be worried about risuk of its but Amar Elam l'maila but that's only if the bird can swim upstream. So, we know that it's moving itself. I will Lamila Lamata, but if it's going downstream, then Maya who does below. It could be that the water is carrying it and it's no right that it doesn't have the treifus on the inside. If you Maya Kaimi, let's say the water is still less than above, then it doesn't matter if it's swimming upstream or downstream, it will show that it is not a treifa. The Isha that see they the Kadme, and if there are at least wood chips thrown into the water and the bird was able to do something with these chips, there's some kind of a activity the bird will do in the water, well, then who Kadme it was able to do that process with the chips in therefore, it shows that it's not going to be a treifa and it'll be okay. And now the Gamara is going to give us a whole long list of different kinds of surfaces, whether or not we have to worry about risikay varum of a bird. Glima Mosiach Chishinan, if it fell onto a taut sheet that was that was spread out, well, then we have to be chishus for risikay varum. The loy Mosiach loy Chishinan, but the sheet wasn't stretched so taut, then we don't have to worry about it. Uf Ufuf loy Chishinan, if the sheet was folded, then we don't have to worry because if it is folded, it can't be stretched taut enough to be a hard enough surface to injure the bird. Isla U Makarem Kichre Chishinan, if the bird went into a net that was spread in the air and the knots are close together, we have to worry about smashing into those closely spaced knots. Loy Makare Kichre loy Chishinan, if the knots are so if the knots are not so close together, we don't have to worry. Kisna Dovid Putune Chishinan, if the bird landed on flax that was made into bundles, we have to worry about risikay varum cuz it's stiff. The high gisu high gisu loy Chishinan, but if it's on the sides of these bundles, we don't have to worry about it. Isu Raisa Chishinan, if the bird fell on the bundles of reeds, we're going to be chishus for risikay varum. However, Kisna Dovid Dik Nufis loy Chishinan, if it fell on the flax that was already beaten and combed, nothing to worry about. Dik Vil Nufis Chishinan, if it fell on the flax that was pounded but not yet combed out, then we have to be chishus for the hard particles that maybe created a risikay varum in the bird. Dovid Bizre if the bird fell on this combed flax that was then made into bundles, Kivin Dik Kichre Chishinan, there was those hard parts and therefore we have to worry about risikay varum. Daksa Chishinan, if the bird hits these different splinters of pieces, then we're going to be chishus for risikay varum. Dak Kusa loy Chishinan, but if it fell on the softer part, we're not going to be worried. Navra Chishinan, if it fell onto this stuff that you get from the palm tree, then we are going to be chashish. Tim chosala chashinen fell on the stringier pieces of this palm tree, we're not going to worried. Kitsma nichala chashinen if it fell onto the ashes, then we are going to be chashish. Lo nichala le chashinen but if it was not sifted these ashes were just piled together and therefore I guess they're softer. We're not going to be chashish cuz a nice soft landing. You know what? We're going to stop here even though we're in the middle of this list and pick it up with the top of nun base for Sunday's stuff.