Chullin Daf 50

All right, daf noon. Friday's daf, as we continue to talk about the different kinds of cheilev that might be kosher or not kosher. We're in my clay kiss with Rebbe Akiva and Rebbe Yishmael, whether there are two requirements for kashrus or three requirements. And it was a shaila which one was the machmir, which one was the meikel. There's the krum, the niklaf, the fact that there's the membrane and you could peel it off. But then there was this third possibility of of tais that the fat is draped over the busser somehow. Anyway, we then brought Rebbe Nachman that said that this cheilev that's Rebbe Akiva is not going to seal up a hole. We had different ideas of what that cheilev Rebbe Akiva actually means. And now we're picking it up five lines from the bottom of mem tes and beis, end of the line. Omar Rava, "Shamis minei d'Rebbe Nachman tarti. I learned two things from Rebbe Nachman's memra. Chimsa u'bar chimsa chadsos and chalo sosim." There are these two different kinds of cheilev. One's called chimsa and one's bar chimsa. One will close up a hole that's in the keiva and one won't succeed in closing up a hole in the keiva. "V'lo yedana aimina and I don't know which one is which." Which the Gemara says, "Rebbe Huna bar Chinena d'Rebbe Huna bar Rebbe d'Rebbe Nachman amar, 'Bar chimsa sosim. However, chimsa lo sosim.' Amar Rebbe Tuvya v'simana d'halacha, "How am I going to remember that?" That the bar chimsa is the one that succeeds in being sosim. It's because yafa koach ben mikoach av. Which is a borrowed expression from the sugia in shvuos about a ben who is yaresh from his father can collect on a chov without having to make a shvua, whereas the father has to make a shvua. So the ben's koach is yafa from his father's koach. And that's the bar chimsa which succeeds in closing up the nekev in the keiva. Now, how do I know which one's which? "Hi chimsa v'hi bar chimsa." So tashma d'Rebbe Nachman, Rebbe Nachman had said legabei that cheilev of the keiva that people in Eretz Yisrael were matir, but in Bavel they weren't, that inu meichel ochli. Could it possibly be that those in Eretz Yisrael were more meikel, meichel ochli, they'll eat it? Moving over to Mada Ela, but v'lo yedana, but by us in Bavel, mistama nami lo sosim. Not only could we not eat it, but it goes mikotza kotza and it won't even be a proper way to be sosim the nekev in the keiva. That kind of extremism is not mistabra. But anyway, what do you see from Rebbe Nachman? That the Baruch Hamza, the kind of kosher chelev that will seal up the cave, that's talking about the kind of chelev that would be a machlokes between Eretz Yisrael and Bavel. Now, da kashta kul yama lo pligi daser legabe the chelev of the kashta, which is literally meaning a bow because of the shape that it is in the body that has the curvature of a bow. Everybody's maskim that kind of chelev is aser. Ki pligi, where are they going to have a machlokes between Bavel and Eretz Yisrael? The ayisra, it's the chelev by the bowstring, meaning the string that you pull back on a bow, which is the straighter side of the bow of a bow and arrow. But it's a way to describe the location of that kind of chelev. Or you could have me there's another version of what the machlokes between Bavel and Eretz Yisrael was, what kind of chelev? The ayisra, kul yama lo pligi deshari. On the bowstring dika fat, everybody's maskim it's going to be mutar. But ki pligi, da kashta, it's on the curvature of the bow part. Okay. Ki hada Amar Rav Avya Amar Rebbi Ami Mikamtzan, it's like what Rav Avya bishim Rav Ami, who was from Eretz Yisrael, he says you can be mikamtzan, you can skim off that part of the chelev of that bowstring part and eat everything else. You can mamesh cut off the problematic area. Chein Amar Rebbi Ami bishim Rav Zuki Nachad Mikamtzan, you can also skim it off the top. Amar Rav Avya Hamikami Kamai d'Rebbi Ami and kamtzu v'havu leiva achal, they cut off a little bit off the top of this chelev that we're talking about and they served it to him and he ate it. Shmuel d'Rebbi Chanina, the servant of Rav Chanina have a koi kamai d'Rebbi Chanina Amar lei kametz havli d'eichal. Rav Chanina said to him, "Skim off a little bit of that kind of fat and give me the rest to eat." Meaning that was a kosher way to approach it. Chazi d'havei ka machasim, Rav Chanina saw that the shamos was hesitant to do it. Amar lei Bavelai, "What are you from Bavel? That your mesirah is that that's aser? Gum sh'dei, if that's the case, cut it all off and throw it away." In other words, "I'm not going to have you do something that's against the way you feel because you come from Bavel." Tanya, Rebbi Shimon ben Gamliel Omer b'nei mayim ain chinkvu, in the intestines there's a hole, the leicha s'samton and the fluid that's inside of the intestines is going to close up the hole. K'sheira, that works even though that kind of a nekev in the b'nei mayim should that the animal into a treifa, but because the leicha was say say met, that will be machsher it. Now, my leicha, what is this liquid that we're talking about? So, Kahana shirk the nufka dukhka. It's the sticky mucus that gets squished out, which has a fat thick consistency, therefore can make an effective seal on the neck of in the bene mayai. Kimiri braya d'rabi Abba may rabi Abba that these braya of rabi Abba had a mesora from rabi Abba umona rabi Zeira the amrei braya d'rabi Zeira may rabi Zeira rabi Abba, but whoever it was, they had this mesora that rabi Abba d'rabi Chia bar Abba huchi rabi Chia bar Abba rabi Alacha rabi Shimon ben Gamliel b'treifa b'alacha rabi Shimon b'avel. So, we pass like rabi Shimon ben Gamliel hilchos treifus and like rabi Shimon hilchos avelus. So, alacha rabi Shimon ben Gamliel b'treifa and that's the alacha we've been talking about that you can close up a neck of in the bene mayai with this lovely intestinal mucus. However, rabi Shimon mayai, what's the alacha of hilchos avelus that we pass like rabi Shimon talking about? Did none or the girsah should really be did tanya kol shlosh yamim rishonim. Let's say in the first three days of a shiva a relative who didn't know that their relative died and didn't know to have to sit shiva and then they show up within the first three days. Bom mikom karov minei mon. If he shows up from a close location then the alacha is he doesn't have to make up those missing days. He could just start in mid process because he came within those first three days. Mikom rachok, but let's say he comes from far away then minei l'atzmi. He has to count a whole new seven days of shiva. Mikam elach from that point on. Afilu bom mikom karov minei l'atzmi, even if he arrives on the first three days of shiva, but if he comes from a nearby place he'll count shiva on his own. Rabi Shimon omer afilu b'yom hashvii bom mikom karov minei mon. Even on the seventh and the last day of shiva, if he comes from a close by place he'll count with the other avel, meaning he doesn't have his own count and he only will do let's say the last day of the shiva. And that's the alacha that cool alacha of rabi Shimon that we pass like by hilchos avelus. Omar Mandahu, so somebody named Mandahu said, Mandahu's a very strange name. Rashi says it's one of the talmidim, but they just don't remember his name. So, they called him Mandahu, he whose name is unknown. Is it agmara or is it pumbedisa? Hopefully I should be able to go to Eretz Yisrael to where Abba bar Chiya bar Abba is and learn from him mamesh from his mouth. He found him and said to him, "Hey." Did you really say that we pasken like him regarding treifas? This is a big moment to learn from the rebbe. He said to him, "Hey." He said, "No, for sure. I said the halacha is not like him regarding treifas." So, now he asked him, "Was that true?" That we pasken like him? That's the way he said the halacha is like him. But he was wrong on both accounts. However, the halacha That's the bottom line. The bottom line is the halacha is like him. The bottom line is the halacha we pasken like the one who comes to save us. It's that means all of it or only a part of it. I believe that's the way he said it. It's only a part of it that we say the halacha is like him. What does this mean? What is So, according to Rashi, if you're looking at a hole and you can't tell just by looking at it, did that hole exist before the or after the treifa? Well, I have an idea. Make a new hole in the intestines nearby and then you can compare. If it looks the same, then it must have happened after the treifa. If it doesn't look the same, well, we'll have to assume it happened before the treifa and it's a treifa. There was such that it had a hole in it. He made another hole and he compared them, but they didn't look the same. Must be this thing is a treifa and he was going to be matrif this animal. His son came. "Memashmesh behu ve'idmu." He rubbed the new hole, and all of a sudden the hole started to change its look. It started to look like that older hole. Where he was able to see, "Oh, maybe this hole actually happened after the shchita, and the and the animal is actually a kosher animal." So, "Amar lei Min olacha?" Rav asked him, "How did you know this smart thing to do to rub that hole and see that it would change the way it looks?" So, "Amar lei Mesharshe said him, "Kama yodei memashmeshu behani makami delasei lekami demar?" "How many people must have rubbed this hole because they were trying to pasken a shaila before you actually looked at it to give your own psak." So, if you want to be a medama, one hole to another hole, you got to rub the second hole, so this way it'll have that same quality as that first hole. So, "Amar lei." So, what did Rav say? "Chakim beri, my smart son." Betreifus Kerbi Yachani is mamish a chocham. "Az oivi Rebbi Yachani." That's my son the posek. I'm so proud of him. All right, but look at the gemara. "Rebbi Yachani Rebbi Elazar damri tavaihu makifin bereia." We were talking about the menaim over here, but now you can make a hole in the lung, a new hole that you can make, and you'll see if that hole matches a previously existing hole to determine if the previously existing hole was there before shchita or not. So, you can be makifin bereia. But, "Amar Rava, we got to qualify that. Ve'amar Rebbi Elazar Ruga, that's only if it's in the same row of those lobes. Aval me'aruga le'aruga lei." "Ve'hilchisa, afilu me'aruga le'aruga, you can even do that comparison one to another row. Midaka ledaka, from one small beheima daka to another beheima daka, umegasa legasa, but aval megasa ledaka, aval medaka legasa." Cuz then the holes will look different and you can't compare. "Abaye ve'Rava damri tavaihu makifin bekana." You can compare a hole in the kana, in the trachea, to figure out if the existing hole was there before or after the shchita. "Amar Rebbi Papa lei Amar Rebbi Elazar Chuliya, as long as it's in the same chuliya, that same ring in the kana. Aval me'chuliya le'chuliya lei, you can't compare, it won't be a good raya." "Ve'hilchisa, afilu me'chuliya le'chuliya, umibarchuliya lebarchuliya, you can do like-minded chuliyas to chuliyas or bar chuliyas to bar chuliyas." Means like a subring. But, you can't mix and match. "Aval me'chuliya lebarchuliya, aval me'barchuliya lechuliya." "Amar Ze'iri, "Chalchalis shinikfichara." Let's say, if there's a hole in the rectum, means mean, they're in the tube on the way out, you have some kind of a puncture in that chalchalis, it'll still be kosher. Oy oy Because since the way the back of the animal is that you its hips will kind of hold together and in case that chalchalis, that rectum, so as Rashi explains, the waste won't go out the neckev, the hole that's inside the rectum, but rather it'll go out where it's supposed to go out. The comma, and how much of the chalchalis is going to be mutar? In other words, which part of the chalchalis does not become a treifa if it has a hole? Amar Rebbi Elai, Amar Rebbi Yochanan, makom hadovek berubai. The place where it's stuck to the hips, meaning rov of it. Shilsha makom hadovek bemashu. But where it doesn't stick to the hips, then it's going to be a treifa even with a mashu d'k'size hole in that area. Amru Rabbanan k'mei d'Rav Nachman, they said over this memra b'shem of Nachman, Amar when Rav Huna said, "Lav mi aminalu, didn't I tell you already, leitislubei, don't be toleh on Rav Nachman, turning over to me the base bukei shrikei, these empty pitchers?" In other words, don't say a memra b'shem him that he never said. Because hachi amar Rav Nachman, makom hadovek afilu nito kulo kasher. In the place where that rectum usually connects to the hips, then even if it was completely removed, meaning it's not even there, it'll still be kosher. As long v'huchshinish'arei b'k'dei t'fisah, as long as there's enough that remains intact that you could still grab it, that will make it kosher. V'kama, how much is that shiur of k'dei t'fisah? Amar Bayei k'molei batadah b'teirei. The width of your finger is enough by the case of a teirei, by the case of an ox. As long as there's enough of that tube of the rectum that is intact with that hole in it that is the length of the width of your finger, then the animal's going to be kosher. So now we know the shiur. Holy cow's rectum, Batman. Now we know the shiur for the kashrus of the chalchalis. Hakareis Hapnimi, the Mishnah had said that the animal is a treifa if the kareis, which is the inner stomach, has a hole in it or if rov of the outer part of it was nikro, was torn. That's what the Mishnah had said. So Amar Rebbi Yehudah Amar Rav, let's figure out what the kareis hapnimi actually is. And the Gemara is going to give us what I think is seven different ideas of what it might be. Hei ad Nissan bar Shilo reish d'bachaya d'Tzippori. So Nissan bar Shilo, who was the chief shochet in Tzippori, he was made of the Rebbe Mishum Rebbe Nosson that A zoo he cares up Nemi Sanya D Vay. Sanya D Vay literally means part that's despised by the wolves, which according to the picture I'm looking at now looks kind of like a malformed hot dog, which I can just imagine is super helpful. The chain armor of Ishmael and Karcha Sanya D Vay, but Rebbe Ishmael armor is time the Kresa. The Keresa up Nemi is the stomach of the Keresa. Rav Assi armor of Yachnan Makum Tzarish the Keresa. There's a very narrow area of that Keresa. Any of the days though, I don't really know where that narrow part is that Rebbe Yachnan was talking about. Armor of Nachman by Yitzchak Nofel Kresa of the Bira. If you don't know what Rebbe Yachnan meant and the Keresa is not fallen to a bar, meaning you haven't told us anything we can use because we don't know what you're talking about. Armor of Achabar Rebbe Ava armor of Assi, I'll tell you what Rebbe Yachnan meant by this narrow area of the Amita Ulamata where it gets narrower and goes downward as it goes down to the esophagus and all the way to that food pipe is where that inner Keresa is going to be. Rebbe Yacov bar Nachman Mishmol, what's the Keresa up Nemi? That's Makum Shein by Melas. Where there's no of this kind of woolly substance on the inside lining. Rebbe Avina armor of Gneva Mishme the Rav, he says it's Tefach B'veshet Sumach the Keresa Zui Keresa up Nemis. It's the last Tefach of the Veshet of that esophagus that's closest to the stomach. That's the area that's called the Keresa up Nemi. Armor of Rebbe Meir armor of Mishme the Rebbe Assi bar Chanina Kol Keresa Zui Keresa up Nemis. The entire area that the Mishnah is talking about is going to be the called the Keresa up Nemis. That's the very Chomer D'kashita of Marava. The Zui Keresa Achitzain and what's the outer one that's Buser Achipes Rebbe Keresa. It's all the Buser that covers most of the Keresa. Rebbe bar of Huna armor Mifrata. What's that Keresa up Nemi? That's the Mifrata. So my Mifrata armor of Aviya Hecha the Pore Tabache. It's it's the part that the Shochetim show and expose when they open up the stomach of the animal they expose that portion of the Keresa. But in the Ardaya of the K'raba bar of Huna, in Ardaya they pasken like Rebbe bar of Huna, meaning they looked at the Mifrata as the Keresa up Nemi, which will become treif even with the smallest Mashihu of a hole, but the rest of it will be considered like the regular karas that's only going to have a treifus when it's raif. When it's torn with raif. Amarlay, Rav Ashi lamaymar, Kohani Shmeitz Amay, so what do you do with all the other shitas? I mean, you can't just like pick and choose the most meikel dikka one. How do the Nardoi handle all the other dayas? So, amarlay, Kulu Shaikhum with the Rabba bar Rav Huna. Zuk da maymar, they all are bechlal the shita of Rabba bar Rav Huna. Meaning that's what they define what it means. That that karas apnimi includes all the other dayas. So, even though Rabba bar Rav Huna is definitely arguing with the other definitions of what karas apnimi technically means, but he's not willing to say that what the others say is treif. He's going to be machshir. He'll also agree that that will be considered treif. That's how Rashi seems to learn here. With the Rav Ashi Amargaych lan May, what about Rav Ashi Amargaych lan who says that the karas apnimi is this very specific narrow section of that karas. So, amarlay, Kvar prash ti Rav Ashi bar Rav Ava, he had explained earlier in the Gemara. It was that metzel lamata keneged mafra'teihi. Okay, well, what about the other shitas? How about with the Rabbi Avina Udbnei Mar Rabba May that holds that the last tefach of the veshet, that that's what the karas apnimi is. And maybe Mar Rabba that holds that the whole area is going to be the karas apnimi. How are the Bnei Nardoi going to deal with that? Amarlay, Hanivadei pligi enakhna mi. That certainly is a machlokes with the Nardoi. Then the next part of the Mishna said, "Rebbi Yehuda Amar Rebbi Gedoyla, if it's a large animal, then it's going to be a tefach. If it's a small animal, then it'll be raif of that karas achitzaina." So, Amar Rebbi Binyamin bar Yefes Amar Rebbi Elazar, "Loy Gedoyla Gedoyla Mamash, loy Ketana Ketana Mamash. We're not talking about the biggest animal or the smallest animal. Ela Koshi Nikra bo Tefach v'lo Hava Rubba, zu hi Shishini in Gedoyla Tefach." Any case where the tefach of that exterior karas is going to be torn and it's not going to be the raif, then that's what I meant when I said, "If it's a Gedoyla, it's going to be a tefach." Rubba loy Hava Tefach zu hi Shishini in Ketana be Rubba. And whenever the raif of the karas achitzaina is not going to be a tefach, that's what's meant when the Mishna said that a Ketana ikkar is going to be the raif of that karas achitzaina. So, first thing my Rubba loy Hava Tefach, pshita, if the whole raif of this karas is torn and this whole thing is so small that it's not even a tefach in length. Obviously, the animal is treifa cuz Ruba is kakulai as Rashi speaks out. So, why would Re Yehuda have to repeat such an obvious halacha that it's going to be treif? And for the mar let's try to have a tefach by mashu. It's a little bit shy of a full tefach. So, my would a tema at the mikrobotecha have a treifa. Maybe until you actually tear an entire tefach, maybe it's not going to have a halacha of a treifa. Which is a kind of a difficult kasha in the Gemara. Rashi tries to work it out. Comes Re Yehuda and says not the halacha even if it's less than a tefach, but as long as it's alive, it will be a treifa. Amur Geniva Amur Rebi Asi, nikta rokes sela treifa. Let's say there's a circular size hole which is the size of the coin of the sela, it's going to be a treifa even though it's not a tefach. Because she empty mosach out that circle into a straight line, it would be the length of a tefach. We find similar halachas by some in my halachas nida. Amur Rebi Chiyya bar Abba, lididima first of all he made the Geniva amabra dinar adai. This was explained to me by Geniva at that location of the river crossing of Narda. Sela k'she yoser mikasela treifa. If the hole is the size of a sela, then the animal can be kosher. If it's larger than the size of the sela, then the animal is a treifa. The kama yoser mikasela. How much is the larger than a sela? How much larger than the sela does that hole need to be to make the whole animal to a treifa? Amur Rebi Yai Safe, k'gonda ilan tlas kashiyosa. It's a treifa if three date pits can pass through the hole. B'tzifa b'ducha, if they're coated with some kind of shmutz from fruit, it'll be tight to push through. B'lo it tzifa b'ravcha, or if it's not coated with this extra goop from the fruit, it will pass through easily. So, there's a very specific shear of how you pass through these dates to determine the size that hole that will make it into a treifa. We are going to stop here and pick it up for Shabbos this week. This is the daf.