Chullin Daf 49

All right, Daf Mem Tes, Thursday's Daf, more about needles in your meat as we pick it up five lines from the bottom of Mem Ches Amud Bais. There was a needle found in a piece of liver. So, cuz for crying out loud, if there is a needle in your liver, how did it get there? It must have punctured through other things making it a treifa. Let's say you would have found a needle in stam some busar. Would you have made it into a treifa? A needle in meat betzam is not a tarfis. So, the liver's no different than any other kind of busar. Therefore, you don't make the animal into a treifa based on this. So, chazina we take a look at it. Which end of this needle is sticking out of the liver? Is it the thicker blunt side or is it the sharp pointy side? If the blunt thicker end that's not so sharp is sticking out, then how do you think it got into the liver? Well, it must have punctured its way through. But, let's say the sharp part is what's sticking out. So, you can assume that how did the needle get into the liver? It came through the vascular route, if you will, not taking any shortcut, but kind of passed along through the different natural channels, and therefore it didn't puncture anything along the way. And you can assume the animal's kosher. Now, that's talking about a big needle that wouldn't leave the liver head first. But, if it's a little itty-bitty needle that even the head of the needle can actually pierce the animal. So, you have to be It came into the liver via shortcut, meaning through puncturing, and therefore we have to assume the animal's a treifa. You're making this that a big needle wouldn't have exited head first. Moving when it comes to finding a needle in the base that's one of the stomachs known in English as the reticulum, it depends where you find it. If you only find it from one side of the inner wall of the stomach, then the animal's going to be kosher. However, if it's sticking through both sides of the wall, which is another way of saying it went all the way through, then the animal's going to be a treifa. We don't start breaking it down Kuppel of the ovary, Kuppel of the gall, the head of this needle? We don't care one way or the other. So, how is the bryce able to say the animal is going to be kosher no matter which end of the needle sticking out of the inner wall? Khash bekhashish, that even if the head of the needle was embedded, we should say that the head of the needle is now beginning to puncture its way out. But, the Gemara amri hasam, where the needle's head is stuck inside these base hakiseis, even the eekal mashkin, since there's other stuff in the stomach, you got eekal and mashkin, you got that day's lunch. Eema eekal and mashkin dakh khuha, maybe that's actually what pushed the needle head first into the wall. But, by the case of the kaveh, by the liver, where there's no other things there to push the needle forth, you wouldn't say the needle is going to go out head first, and therefore, there is no steer between the bryce and what Rav Ashi had made this khiluk. Ha hu makhta dishtakakh bisim peina rabba dikavda, there was a needle found in the sim peina rabba, that's the big blood vessel of the kaveh, of the liver. Khunda mar bar Rav Idi taruf, he made it into a treifa, but Rav Adda bar Manyumi was makshir. Also, shailu l'Rav Avina, the talmidim went to ask a shaila before Rav Avina. Amru l'hu Rav Avina said, "Shkilu glima d'tarfoi, you should take away the bag head of the guy who said it was treifa, and give it as payment to whatever baal habayis you said that it was treifa." In other words, if you say such an animal is treif, you're really hurting him financially, and therefore, you should pay from the shirt off your back. Because it's not treif, it's really kosher. Ha hi kishiyosa dishtakakh b'mara, there was a date pit found in the gall bladder of this kishakhtina animal. Amru Rav Ashi, kiyavina b'Rav Kahana amar, when we were by Rav Kahana, he said, "Hovada sim peina nakat vasoi." How did the date pit get in there? Didn't take any shortcuts through anything, but rather went to the sim peina route, which is always a way of saying it came in the kosher way, through the blood vessel. Because the pit is too blunt to have come in al yedei any hole or puncture. And therefore, it's going to be kosher. Af al gav diloy kadafka, even though the pit is so big that you can't get it out al yedei the sim peina, still we can say it came in through the sim peina. Because mirabel hu d'rav olai, so the animal's ongoing movements pushed that pit through the narrow opening of of the sim peina, yes, but it happened slowly. It's not going to come out though that same way. Bahani meeli didikla, but this is only by the pit of a date, which is very blunt and not piercing its way through the digestive area. Aval dizaisam mivza bazza, but by an olive pit, which could be sharp, then we have to be khashish that it actually made a negative through the bene mayim and into the mara and therefore the animal will be a treifa. Amar Rebbi Yochanan, lama nikra shmo re'ah? Why is a lung called a re'ah? Zoch der sheme'irah es ha'einayim. It's healthy, it makes the eyes brighter. Now, eib baylu, when we say it's healthy, is it l'achilah to eat the lungs by itself or al yedei simanim? Or maybe only if you mix it with some other kind of concoction, some other medicinal herbs, will that make it into a healthy thing for your eyes? So, tishma at Amar Rav Huna bar Yehudah, avza b'zuzah v're'ah d'dov arba. If a whole goose costs a zuz, then the lung within it is worth four zuzim because it's so healthy. Now, that doesn't make any sense on the surface. He said k'dei l'achilah, if you're telling me that just eating the lungs itself is going to be worth four times the amount of the whole goose, well, lim k'd b'zuzah v'lecho? Just buy a whole goose because you have the lungs in it. It doesn't make any financial sense to spend four bucks on just the lungs by itself. Ella al yedei simanim, must be it's a concocted potion with these other things that you use lungs as the ingredients and that's why it's worth four bucks for the lung with the simanim. And one might ask, what's the actual nafka mina about the health benefits, which is the more expensive part? This whole Gemara seems like it's a little bit of a who cares. But, the Nezer HaKodesh says that, well, it'll make a nafka mina l'halacha if the lungs by themselves is worth this amount because if it's worth this much independently, then it'll be a chaticha ha'ruya l'ischabei and it'll make a nafka mina l'gabei hilchos bitul b'rov. An interesting chab from the Nezer HaKodesh. All right, now the Gemara has a new shaila. Inakva re'ah heicha d'mishamshe mayoda b'dapcha. Let's say the lung has a hole in it, but the hole in the lung is exactly where the dapcha, where the shochet's hand grabs the lungs. So, talinan o lo talinan? Can we assume that the existing hole is not a pre-existing hole before shechita? It happened after shechita, when the hand of the shochet was a little too rough, I guess, with the lungs. So, Rav Ada bar Nachman amar, talinan, you're allowed to be toleh it l'kula and say it happened al yedei the shochet's hand. Mar Zutra b'rei d'Rav Mari amar, lo talinan. The hilchasa talinan that you can be meikel. Amar Rav Shmuel b'rei d'Rav Avuha, Aba meireisha kalli d'Rav Nachman havi. My father was one of the heads of the kallah, which is a reference of the shiur, the aricha kallah, by Rav Nachman. V'Amar, talinan, and he said we should be toleh. Amar Rav Nachman l'Rav Ada, d'Mar Zutra b'rei d'Rav Mari v'lo kibluha. And he wasn't maskim and says we're not going to be Taylor look at all but we have to look at the doctor amar, I think it's like my says that we are going to be on the end of the Google telling me save cuz we find the same thing by this case of the wolf that actually took the and we could be that any puncture wounds in the came from the wolf and not with something there beforehand so in the same way we're by the we could be here by the also Mona what about if you find a worm meaning after the now you got these worms crawling out cuz as we know the worms crawling and the worms crawl out and now we find holes in the lung after the so your is if the worm made the whole after there's no problem it's perfectly kosher definitely gross but absolutely kosher but if that worm made the whole before the we got a serious problem it's going to be a so it left the lung while the animal was still alive and therefore the animal is going to be a the only came out of the lung and we we say come out of the lung we're saying through the wall of the lung it came out after and therefore the animal's kosher it made a hole in the animal but you can say it came out after you it came out after and therefore the animal's kosher which again why don't we say the right the when he brings this gives a couple of he says it's more to say the worm came out of the animal after the animal's dead number one because the animal is moving more and until the animal dies it's harder for the worm to escape and the other idea I believe was that the worm is more comfortable in the living animal and therefore only wants to escape and actually puncture a hole through the lung after the the animal Shimon Shimon cave this is going back to a quote from our mission that says that the animal with a hole in its lung is not a unless it's all the way punctured through all the way to the all about to say is that the lung is not going to be a unless it goes all the way to that all the primary you also all about you also all about lady all about Shimon all about are you talking about Malachi from Arabia? He says the is not like he saw we lady from Arabia. I'm swearing we one time visited Malachi's location we asked him Omar from Arabia. Did you Malachi say the is not like from Arabia. We are baby after what's your Omar Malachi Omar from Arabia. Even though we went back and forth over here even though we went back and forth over here bottom line is the Malachi from Arabia. This expression of Malachi might be the only place in all of shots where the word Malachi is there. Tell stories about the of given when they were asked where in shots to say the word Malachi and they right away know it's only the one place in shots and Ruby Margolies wants to explain this kind of strange expression of of calling him Malachi from Arabia. The Malachi from Arabia and the way Ruby Margolies explains is because he has his from his that in Arabia that the Arabs would mispronounce words. So the difference between Malachi from Arabia and Malachi from Arabia is so similar that it's easy to get that confused that the is not like or yes the is like and that would be the explanation why we're calling him the Malachi from Arabia. Then the mission that said Nikva if the which is another part of the stomach had a hole in it that's also going to be a Omar from Arabia. Let's say there's that which is on the Malachi from Arabia. The Malachi from Arabia the Malachi who receive as one of the as we know the they would also get that as fat because the were being on the of Ruby who's the more cool in the to see money to remember that it was Ruby to say that there was a cool about this kind of that the was always helping the so we're saying Ruby Shimon is always the Kohanim. It sounds like he does it in other places. So, what's that? Some Mahi? What are we talking about? Did Tanya cuz the Bracha says as Bnei Yisrael. The Torah tells the Kohanim they got to bench Klal Yisrael. Rebbi Yishmael learned Yisrael from the Kohanim. From this we learn about the mitzvah to bench Klal Yisrael from the Kohanim. But the Kohanim we didn't learn anything about how it'll be a Bracha for the Kohanim themselves. Cuz you know any of our kin. When the Torah says in the following possuk that I will bless them meaning the Kohanim have the Kohanim of Yisrael Bracha of Kohanim. Rebbi Akiva he learns a different possuk. He says Yisrael but we didn't learn anything about a Bracha from Hashem. Have the Kohanim Yisrael Hashem bless but it doesn't say that the Bracha of Hashem goes to the Kohanim. That's Rebbi Yishmael's Halacha. Rebbi Akiva Bracha of Kohanim. They say how according to Rebbi Akiva do the Kohanim receive a Bracha? So, Nachman bar Yitzchak just like whoever blesses you is going to get blessed themselves. Rebbi Akiva holds that the Kohanim are also going to get a Bracha. So, why is Rebbi Yishmael getting the credit for helping the Kohanim any more than Rebbi Akiva is helping the Kohanim? Because Rebbi Yishmael is giving the Bracha of Yisrael. Rebbi Yishmael is giving the Bracha to the Kohanim in the very same place where Yisrael is receiving the Bracha. Has a beautiful story and Shaila that he connects to this Sugya about the two-way street blessing of Bracha. About two Yidden. One was in Yerushalayim, one was in Bnei Brak and they swapped apartments for whatever reason. So, the Yid who was temporarily in his buddy's house in Yerushalayim his daughter became a Kallah. So, he calls his who is now staying in his place in Bnei Brak and says, "Listen, I want to make a L'Chaim for my daughter who just became a Kallah in your apartment but it's going to be a crowd. So, I feel it's only to ask you can I have this crowd come to your apartment?" And the fellow who was in Bnei Brak says, "I don't want you to do it in my apartment." So, the Yerushalayimer asks, "Why wouldn't you want me to do it?" He was so surprised. We're good friends. Like you wouldn't want me to host a Simcha there. I'm not going to do any damage. So, the Yid in Bnei Brak says, "No, no, I'll tell you why. Because my daughter is also looking for a Shidduch. And I went to a big Godol for a brocha. And the brocha from the godol was that I'm going to have a l'chaim in my apartment. So, if you make the l'chaim in my apartment, you're going to be mekayem that brocha. And I want the kiyum of the brocha happen for my daughter. So, they took the shaila to Rav Yisrael Zilberstein. And Rav Yisrael Zilberstein came out that the yid who's currently in Bnei Brak will not lose out on the brocha when his chaver makes the l'chaim in his Yerushalayim apartment. And that's because the schluss of his vatronus will mitigate any usage up of that brocha. And he brings a bunch of stories to make this point. One of the stories is about Rav Meir Shapiro when he was building his yeshiva a ballabus approached him to say, "I want the schluss of paying off the government to get the yeshiva built. And in return, I want the schluss of your olam haba for making the yeshiva." So, Rav Meir Shapiro said, "I'll take your money and I'll let you have my schluss for having the yeshiva. But, I want to keep the schluss of the vatronus of allowing you to have those schluss. I guess you can bring a raya that the schluss of the vatronus is as big as the schluss of the kiyum itself." And he has other stories to back it up. But, anyway, kind of a beautiful idea to think about. Now, getting back to the cheilev on the keiva, Rav Yishmael ben Yishmael says, "Mahi?" What was this memra from Rav Yishmael? Did tanya because the braisa says, "The aisch kol hacheilev asher al hakerav." The posuk says that all the cheilev that's on these insides turning over to me beiz ve gomer. "L'havi cheilev she'al gabei hadakin." So, the yiter of the l'chaira extra vav is coming to tell us that the cheilev that's on this part of the animal is also going to be ossur. "Divrei Rav Yishmael." This is the shita of Rav Yishmael. Rav Akiva omer, "L'havi cheilev she'al gabei hakeiva." So, that's why the cheilev on the keiva according to Rav Akiva is going to be not kosher to eat. But, Rav Yishmael himself holds that that cheilev on the keiva is okay. And that's how he's helping out the Kohanim. Hi, there's another braisa that seems to say not that way. "The aisch kol hacheilev asher al hakerav." What is the vav coming to be? "Marbeh." Rav Yishmael omer, "Ma cheilev uma chassas hakerav? Krum veniklaf." Just like that fat is covering these parts of the body that can be peeled away. "Af kol krum veniklaf." Any other kind of cheilev that is encased by this krum that you could peel it away. Rav Akiva omer, "Ma cheilev uma chassas hakerav? Toisef krum veniklaf." Just like the fat that covers the kishkes is is covered and encased inside of something that could be peeled away. "Af kol toisef krum veniklaf." Any other cheilev included by the vav must be cheilev that is also toseph, covering and can be peeled away. So, we have a braisa that's connected to an earlier braisa. How do you reconcile this? Kachi hatza'ah shel mishnah. This nusach of the second braisa that you're saying is a steer of the first one is really the right lotion. Eipach kamaisa, switch around the first braisa cuz that one is an unauthoritative lotion. So, how do you know which one to change? And for the gemara, in the second braisa it has a ma just like by this, which shows that this braisa is a little bit more authoritative cuz he's being very meduyak in the list. If you're telling me that the second braisa is really the more meduyakdika one and it's the opposite halacha and Rebbe Shimon is assering the cheilev on the keiva, then it can't be that Rebbe Shimon is the one who's helping out the Kohanim and being mater that cheilev like Rebbe Shimon had said on the Menachos perek. It's going to be like Rebbe Akiva cuz we're he was just saying it over, but he himself doesn't hold that way. Rebbe Shimon himself is going to be mater it and therefore he's still supporting the Kohanim and their heter for that cheilev. Amarav, cheilev tahor sa'iseim, tamei eina sa'iseim. There's a musag of the actual hole [snorts] in the keiva being closed up by cheilev, but it depends what kind of cheilev. If it's cheilev tahor, it can be sa'iseim. It can actually seal up that hole. But tamei like a cheilev will eina sa'iseim. Rebbe Shimon said, "No, achas zeh v'achas zeh sa'iseim. As long as it's closed up, it's closed up. We don't care about the kashrus of the cheilev." Bayi Rebbe Zeira, cheilev chayamai, what about the cheilev of a chaya? Can it also [clears throat] close up the hole in this part of the stomach? Davka amar cheilev tahor sa'iseim? V'hai nami tahor, it's a kosher animal. Or maybe a dilma mishum d'machadak because of the quality of the kosher d'kacheilev that it's machadak. I guess it's gluey and therefore it will work and seal up the hole. V'hai l'machadak the cheilev of the chaya, even though it's mutar, it's not going to be machadak. Amar Rebbe Shimon, "I take away the what kind of kashrus is that? He deshari b'cheila, hadukei l'machadak." If it's mutar to eat, it's not going to work to close up the hole and therefore it's not going to take care of the treifus. How we nakif d'sasma cheilev tamei that this treifa cheilev closed it up d'asla k'mei d'Rava. And amar Rava, "L'mai nakif sh'la?" What are you worried about? It's for sure mutar. So even though it's cheilev tamei, it'll still close it up. And Rav argues with Rav Sheishes, you should still pasken l'kula because of Torah chasa al minei min Yisrael. As we talked about several times in Maseches Menachos, you have Rav who says that this cheilev is going to be assur and it won't close up the hole of the treifa and therefore it's assur d'oraisa. You're not allowed to eat a treifa because d'oraisa. How are you going to undo the tarfus min ha'Torah because of the svara of Torah chasa al minei min Yisrael? And now the Gemara's going to have a similar kind of an application. Kanduka iglay lay b'satka d'duvsha. Minyumin the potter, meaning he made pottery, had a honey pot that was uncovered. Assur l'chamei d'Rava. He wanted to know if he could still use the honey because if it's open, maybe there's an air of a nachash got in there. Amar Rav minei nachash l'o. What are you worried about? First of all, chada d'itnan, there are three liquids that are assur but the sharkola mashkin return. All other kinds of liquids that are aguli are going to be okay. And therefore, there is no issur for dvash at all. And even though you're going to have a reason to be chashish because there are tonayim that hold that even dvashka might have a problem of gili, still you could still be meikel. Amar lay Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak l'Rava, Rebbi Shimon who is machmir is sakana nafashos and also this is sakana nafashos. Amar lay Torah chasa al minei min Yisrael. It's the same kind of kasha. You should be chashish l'chumra. Now the Gemara just interrupts for a moment. Rebbi Shimon mahi? What's the shita of Rebbi Shimon that's going to say there's going to be a problem of gili by dvash? Because the braisa says chamisha ein bahem mishum gili. The following five things are not going to have a problem of gili. Tzeer, it's the fish brine, v'chomets, and the vinegar, the shemen, the dvash u'muryas. And Rebbi Shimon omer af ein yeish bahem mishum gili. There is going to be a problem of gili. V'amar Rebbi Shimon, anira ish nachash tzeer b'tzidain. I saw a snake drinking this tzeer, this brine, which snakes would drink. And therefore you got to assur it. So amru lay, they said to him, shatya havi. That was a meshugana to I don't know how they knew that but that's what they said. That snake is not normally going to drink this muria. Snakes don't drink tzir. The Ainei V'ein Rai, I mean I tried them. You can't bring a rai from a crazy story. Omar Rab Nachman bar Yitzchak, you're saying that we should go like the chomer rab like Rab Shimon. But o yidli mechas b'tzir, you can be maskin to me at least by the tzir that we're not going to go like Rab Shimon. Dar of Pappa bar Ravuna bar Rav Ada bar Rav Yeshua bar Rabana k'havlu b'giliya, whenever they would have a problem of gili, what would they do to fix the problem? Shadu lei b'tzir. They would put some tzir into it. So clearly the tzir will neutralize any of the poison from the nachash. So if a whole bunch of tzir, you're not going to have a problem. Omar Rab Nachman bar Yitzchak said back to Rava, o yidli mecha b'dvash. Even though you're right about the tzir, but you haven't shown that we're not going to go like Rab Shimon l'gabe the dvash. And Rab Shimon bar Elazar k'chai k'vasai cuz Rab Shimon bar Elazar holds with him l'gabe the dvash. D'tanya v'chein haya Rab Shimon bar Elazar o yoser b'dvash. Anyway, that's the makor that we know Rab Shimon would say that the dvash has a problem with gili. Now getting back to the sugya at hand, Omar Rab Nachman, chelev osei k'kaiva ein asiseim. This kind of chelev, which is like the kaiva, which is like a cap. Is that the closing of the hole. So heycho, what kind of fat is Rab Nachman talking about? Omar Rava, chitei d'karkasha. It's like these wheat shaped pieces of fat on the rectum of the animal, which sounds lovely. Omar Rava, tarpisha d'liba. Some say it's this kind of fat surface which envelops the leiv, the heart. And it's shaped like a kaiva. All right, we're still talking about the fat sealing the holes, but we're going to stop here and pick it up with Omar Rava for tomorrow.