Chullin Daf 48

All right, today is daf mem ches, and we are picking it up from mem zayin amud bet, eight lines from the bottom of the amud. Interestingly enough, it's Rebbi Chananya Chalash. And the Gemara managed to spell Chananya correctly with a chet at the end instead of an aleph. I'm just kidding. But I do like to see it spelled that way. So here was the story. Rebbi Chananya was chalash, he was sick. Ola gabay Rebbi Nosson, as we had yesterday. Rebbi Nosson chol gedolei hadar. Everybody came to visit him. So now you'd think if they're coming to visit and be mevaqer choleh, they wouldn't be bringing shailos to him. But not only are they going to bring shailos to him, aisu kamay reisha shinishpecha kikitan. They brought him a lung that the interior of the lung was dissolved that it could pour in and out. We had this in yesterday's Gemara. So they brought him the shtickel of flesh that was mamash gross while he's sitting there being sick. Va'achshara. Apparently Rebbi Chananya was not too fazed, he was machshir it on the spot. Omar Rava, "Ruba kamisa simphinas you got to have the bronchi still have to be intact." Rava's qualifying that the only time we say that this liquefied interior of the lung will still not make it into a treifa assuming that the bronchi are still intact. Omar Rebbi Nachman bar Rebbi Rava bar Rebbi Ashi, "Mei no yadi einan." So Rashi learns the what's the test over here to know whether or not the bronchi are still intact. Omar Rebbi Nachman bar Rebbi Ashi, "Mei seenan sa'a dekunyah." Which sounds like glazed pottery, much like our china. And because of its texture and coloring you'd be you'd have a very clear picture whether or not the simphinas are still intact. So if you shafchinan leigavei and you pour out this liquefied lung contents into this bowl, is bei shurayki chivarei, treifa. If within this liquefied goop you see white streaks, well you know what that is. That's the remainder of the simphinas which have dissolved and therefore it's going to make it into a treifa cuz they're not intact. Beilay, kshe'ar, but if you don't see any white streaks you are a-okay and this is a kosher animal. Omar Rebbi Nachman, "Reisha nimuka vechrum shalo kayem, ksheira." If the inside of a lung doesn't liquefy but it decays, so it's gone. Some of the stuff inside the lungs are just pushed gone. But the outside membrane of the lung is still intact, it will be kosher. Tanyana ami hachi, the braisa also says, "Reisha nimuka vechrum shalo kayem." If you have this internally decayed lung but the exterior is still intact, afilu machazekes revi'is, even if that empty area inside is so big that it could be machzik a revias of liquid, ksheira. From doik from the Gemara over here, it seems like a shiyur. It sounds like if you be more than a revias, it would actually treif up the lungs. And apparently, the poskim go back and forth about that, if that's true. You can mix it to dig. But anyway, that's the halacha that even if this cavity is large enough to hold a revias of fluid, it'll be ksheira. Nitla, moving over to amud aleph, shalfuchas shel lo ksheira, which is the womb, the uterus of the animal, if that was taken away, that does not make the animal to a treifa. Islia kovej la, let's say the liver became islia, it became wormy. And zeh haya maiseh of olam olam benai asiya sholish rigalim le Yavneh, a za liver one time happened and they and they were looking for a psak on it. They took it up to Yavneh. What's the significance of Yavneh? Because that's where the Sanhedrin was sit. And they went up all sholish rigalim, meaning they kept going back about the same psak of this wormy liver. And l'regel shlishi, hitiru alaihem ha'eif. And finally, by the third yom tov, they were matir it. Begs the question, like what happened to this big hunk of meat, you know? It's hanging around for a year. They didn't have refrigeration back then. Some say that the meat didn't exist anymore and they were just asking, you know, for the future about the psak of halacha. And some mefarshim actually suggest that they had somehow cured the meat so it was able to last. And the shailah was, could they eat the beef jerky? Amar Rav Yishmael bar Yumi, amar Rav Nachman, re'ah hasmuchah l'dafin, ein chosheshin la. Let's say you have a lung and it's stuck to the interior of the chest cavity, whether it's one little area stuck together or a larger area, either way, you don't have to worry about it and be choshesh that this sircha is because there was a hole in the lung. And when it scabbed over, it became fused to the interior wall of the chest. You don't have to be choshesh for that. Halacha tzumachin, chosheshin la. But let's say if the lung has these blisters around the area where the sircha is, then we have to be choshesh because now maybe there was a hole in the lung and it treifed up the animal. It's kind of an amazing thing. Why would you not have to be choshesh for this? Whatever happened to safek d'oraisa l'chumra? And Rav Ashi asks for kashya. So there's different turds in it. Either it's because the beheima has a chazakas kashrus say meidas and you can be sameach on the chazaka. Maybe there's no leidas safek. But one of the more popular machalokim in the sugiya is that it's a sfek Sfeika. It's a Sofek whether or not there's a Sircha from the lung. And even if the Sircha is because of a hole in the lung, maybe that hole itself wouldn't have been a hole that would necessarily have Treif up the animal. So, when you have the two Sfeikas, it's a Sfeik Sfeika and it'll be Mutar. But that's all Rav Nachman. Mar Yehuda u'Shmuel da'vimi amar "Echad zeh, v'echad zeh, chayshish shala." It's not true. We do have to chayshish for Sirchas and it could be because he learns that's all one Sofek. It's not really a Sfeik Sfeika at all. Assuming you learn that's the Halacha here in Rav Nachman. Seichei avdeinan, I want to check this connection between the lung and the inner cavity of the chest. So, how can I determine whether or not this came from a hole in the lung or not? So, Amarava Rav Nachman bar Shabba azberli "Meisinen sakina d'chalash pumei." You bring a super sharp knife. A knife that literally means a very thin edge. Meaning it's a very very sharp knife. "U'mifarkinan la." And you slice through that place where it's stuck the lung to the inside wall of the chest. See, "E eika reisa av daifen t'leina b'sar daifen." If you find some kind of reisa, some kind of defect on the wall of the chest, well then, ironically, that's a good thing because that means the lungs were really okay. And it was just the inside of the chest cavity that had the actual problem. Mamila, it's going to be Kosher. But if you lay machmas reisa, "U" but if there is no defect, then we have to be chayshish the Sircha is as a result of a hole in the lung, "U" Treifa. The af al gadol lo yikem af k'zeika. And therefore, the animal's a Treifa even though the lungs now are airtight. There's no hissing sound of escaping air. But yet, since you can't be toiled on the chest cavity wound, you have to be chayshish for the Tarfus. Rav Nechemia bar Reider of Yeshiva Badaqla b'pishrei and and Rav Nechemia would l'maisa, even after the fact, he would take this lung and he would put it into the water to see if there were any bubbles came up like the way you do your tire to see if there are any holes in the lung. There's a little Taisus which is extremely important for Psak. Taisus there in Masquerade Nechemia where he says, "L'maisa, the attah is a Taisus. Today, now you're going to have to call Sirchas, we make every Sircha into a Treifa animal." They ain't biting us on the bottom of the Treifa. We don't even bother checking it. If it's got a Sircha, it is going to be Treif. And that is the way the Rambam brings it in Shulchan Aruch. We are Machmir for Sirchas. But that's just us Ashkenazim. If you're a Sephardi, you can go with the Shulchan Aruch because the Mechaber paskens that you can be bidek sirchas, and as long as you can verify that it was not a hole in the lung, it's not going to be a treif, it's going to be a kosher animal. So, this obviously has major nafka minas for us b'zman hazeh. Rabbi Gross in his P'ri Megadim tells over a story about somebody who had such an injury to his lungs, and he lived in Vilna, and because of the fact that the Rama was machmir, but the Shagas Aryeh, interestingly enough, had his own shitah that he was meikel like the way the Mechaber Shulchan Aruch paskens that it is not going to be a treif. Uma Meilah, this man in Vilna one time had a dream where his father came to him and said, "You don't Whatever you do, don't leave Vilna because the psak of the Shagas Aryeh, the Godol who holds that you are not a treifah, is being m'kayem you, and that's why you're still alive, so it would be dangerous for you to leave town because then you'd have to go b'seder the Rama's psak that a sircha is a treifah." This psak of Rav Nechemia saying that you should put the lung into the water to check for any air leaks. You were teaching this halacha in reference to the stuck lung that's stuck to the inside chest cavity. But I none at the Rav Amas Nisan Lo. We learned it as a psak that was in reference to what Rava had said. Two blood ago d'amar Rava, "Hani tarti unai d'reiya d'sarchina l'ahadadi." We learned about the unies, these are the lobes in the lung that are stuck to each other. That according to Rava, "Less l'chubi d'kusa l'achshurei." There's no way to check it to see that it's airtight to be mater the beheima, and therefore you have to say the animal's a treif. And "M'man d'shach," that's a chumra of Rava that "Avdeihem Rav Nechemia b'reider d'Yosef bodeg l'vep'surei." That's where Rav Nechemia b'reider d'Yosef said you should put it into water to see if it bubbles or not. It's in a different context. "Maskif l'Rav Ashi haimai." What are you talking about? "Bishlama hacha t'luyah b'daifna k'sheirah." I get that Rav Nechemia would say by the lung that's attached to the inside chest cavity that we're going to say that the sircha could come from the chest wall, that's why the animal's not a treif. "Aval hasan by the uni, by the multiple lobes of the lung that are sticking one to the other." "Behind the kiv treifah." "Behind the kiv treifah." "M'man d'shach." Either one of these lobes that has a hole in it going to be a treifa. So, what would be the point of testing the lungs out air tightness, you know, to see whether or not any bubbles come up in the water? You can't learn from Nechemya's halacha about the testing in the water vinaguer the unni. It only makes sense to apply it to the lungs that have this adhesion to the inside cavity of the wall of the chest to see whether or not there were any holes in the lung. Meamar of Nachman bar Amar of Yeseph bar Minyumi Amar of Nachman, reish an nikva, if a lung has a hole in it, the dafen so samta kashira. If the chest wall presses up against that hole, it makes it kosher. So, what do you see from this meamar? That Rav Nachman holds that the actual hole in the lung itself doesn't make it into a treifa as long as it gets sealed up by the chest wall. So, why would Rav Nachman say that if you have this sircha, it would make the animal to a treifa if it had a hole in the lung? The hole itself could be sealed up based on the fact that it's proximity to the chest wall. To which the Gemara says, "La kasha. Hasam b'makom revisha, hacha sh'lo b'makom revisha." As we saw the other day, when things are the way that they are naturally growing, hienu revisha, it's kind of like a way to be machshir even though there might be an actual hole. So, Rav Nachman's only being makel when the chest wall is sealing up the hole because it was b'makom revisha. And vehaycha b'makom revisha? And where is that location where it's supposed to be growing? That's chituchay d'unni. That's the place where there's a separation of these lobes of the lung, meaning the three upper lobes of the right lung and the two upper lobes of the left lung, as the Gemara had discussed yesterday or two days ago, that is the location. Gufa. Amar of Yeseph bar Minyumi Amar of Nachman, reish an nikva v'dafen so samta kashira. If the lung has a hole and the chest wall seals it up, it's going to be kosher. Amar of Avina bar Huda savich b'visra. As long as the place of that hole has bussar, meaning between the ribs rather than stuck to the ribs themselves. Like, that's when we talk about the chest wall, we're talking about this rib cage, I suppose. So, the lung has to be adhered to the meat, to the bussar, and not to the bones. And also, the lung has to be not just stuck to it, but has to be savich b'visra, like immersed in the bussar, not just stuck. And the B'seif defines this immersed with bussar that there are short strong fibers of tissue that hold it together. Then it will be my share at that lung. of Yeseph bar You tell me where it is not stuck together and it meshed with the bus or it's going to be a treif. Even though it's against the chest wall, we're going to say that these lungs are bliding the cover. They are a treif. And he even if it subsequently gets somehow repaired by being solved to the bus, it will still be the same treif. This is in reference to a completely different this is a of a if of the guy has a hole in it such that he can't marry into the and because that he's meaning his era comes out as a dribbling rather than properly being the is missed him if that hole that's in his becomes sealed up he is now because he can be he can have children. There's only a few kinds of things in entire where you have holes that get closed up treif and I guess this as well. So you see if the whole closes up it will be kosher. But that over there was over there by the it's here it's going to be possible. What are we coming to be coming to exclude a treif which is the other example of a hole that gets closed up that it shouldn't become kosher again just because it gets sealed up rather it stays as a treif. So we'll start saying that as long as it becomes with the bus or it's going to be kosher it's not true. You got the wrong mute. The puzzle is not referring to this case. The is coming to include a scab that would form as a result of a puncture to the lung which would seal it. That's not called a scab that would not be an effective seal and the stays as a treif. But when that hole becomes meshed with the bus or it's with the bus or then the animal will return to its state of the my treif. In such a case when the wall sealed up this hole in the lung let's say now a new wall appears in the chest cavity opposite that same place where the lung was. And now the air is escaping from the lung through that punctured chest wall. But if that's the case, listening to the mission when it lists all these different the should be one of the list of and an eight. Let's say the gallbladder has a hole in it and the liver which is up against it seals it the animal's going to be kosher. Let's say the liver itself has a hole opposite the existing hole that's in the gallbladder. So now you have this bile coming out of the gallbladder into the punctured liver. So the animal should be a and therefore the mission should have listed listening to and it doesn't do that. Because anytime there's a hole that in that particular organ that will not make the animal to a but because of some sort of a in a different organ so we're not going to list that in the list of different so A punctured lung that has now been sealed up because of its placement next to the wall cavity and now that wall of the chest becomes punctured as well since a hole in the chest wall doesn't make the animal to a only the hole in the lung therefore like we're not going to list it in the list of so What's going to be the if the lung develops blisters? Is the animal going to be kosher? I'm going to lay I also asked him to that shall tell me them is To tell me them were of if it's full of pus it's going to be if it's clear liquid that's inside it will be kosher. That of this about the pus versus clear liquids talking about a kidney but not lungs. By a lung the blister on the surface is not going to make it into a no matter what it's full of. Yay. was walking behind in the butcher market. Has he know a lot of kind of lucky lucky. He saw lungs that were full of blisters. I'm a lie. He wanted to get of Yirmiyahu to make a psak on this. So, he said, "Little boy, my umtsa. Wouldn't you like a good stickle of flesh now?" He wanted to hear him make a psak about this piece of meat. So, I'm a lie. Of Yirmiyahu said, "Leslie pretty. I have no cash on me, so I can't buy the meat." I'm a lie. So, the beautiful part of it is no problem. I'll put it on a note. I'll put it on credit for you. I got credit in this place even though the bother based on the sugi in Yoma on the samach vov that a talmud chacham shouldn't buy on credit me and it would be a chillul Hashem. So, that's a horror on this gemara. But, l'maaseh, he said he could buy it on credit. I'm a lie. My yavo d'lo. Of Yirmiyahu said, "Okay. What do you want from my life?" Tichi also l'kamei d'Rabbi Yitzchak when this kind of a case came to Rabbi Yitzchak for a psak. Mishaddu l'hu l'kamei d'Rabbi Yehudah b'Rabbi Shimon d'Mairiba Mishmei d'Rabbi Elazar b'Rabbi Shimon l'heiteira. He would make a psak l'kula b'shem of Elazar b'Rabbi Shimon. V'leilech v'leilech. But, Rabbi Yitzchak himself didn't really hold of this kula. So, in other words, he didn't hold that you're allowed to eat the beheima, but he wouldn't say it's a treifa either because he didn't have a mesorah from his rabbi that it was takka treifa. I'm a lie. Ki have a mesagina b'seder of Nachman b'shuka when I would go behind of Nachman in the marketplace turning over talmud bayis d'gildoi where they used to do their leather work. But, amri lo b'shuka d'Rabbanan. Some say it was in the Rabbanan's shuk. Apparently, they had their own market. Chazi hanach d'kaimon kandei kandei. He would see lungs that were full of lots of big big blisters. V'lo amri l'hu v'lo meidi. And Rabbi Nachman didn't speak up about it. Clearly, Rabbi Nachman held those kinds of lungs were still muttar and they were not treifus. Rabbi Ami and Rabbi Assi have a chalfi b'shuka d'Tiveria. Chazi [snorts] hanach d'kaimi tinrei tinrei. He saw these blisters on the lungs were huge. V'lo amri l'hu v'lo meidi. He also didn't speak up about it. He must have held they were muttar. Okay, new shaila. Itmar machat nimtzes b'reiya. Let's say you find in the g'shachtin animals' lungs a needle. Now, we have a shaila. If the needle came through from the outside and came through made a hole on the way in. But, if it was just eaten by the animal, that doesn't make it into a treifa necessarily. So, Rabbi Yitzchak and Rabbi Elazar, Rabbi Chinena machshiri. Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish, Rabbi Mani bar Patish, Rabbi Shimon ben Eliakim were tarfei. So, a big machlokes on both sides whether or not is it treifa or not. So, leima b'chamei m'flagi. Itmar sever chaserin mibifnim shmei They hold that a chaser on the inside is considered a treifa. Therefore, this needle that's definitely a chaser bifnim is going to make it into a treifa. That's not really the issue here. There's no problem. One holds that the needle might have come through all you did it through some finest, through those bronchi. And the other sheet is going to be that the market came all you did it puncturing the digestive tract. It would make the animal a treifa both by coming through the digestive and respiratory tracts. They found a market in a cut section of the lung. They wanted a p'sak from him. He held that it could be kosher. Our mission says if the lung has a hole in it or it is deficient, the animal is a treifa. What does it mean it's deficient? It's missing something on the outside of it. There's no difference between a punctured hole and a piece missing from the outside of the lung. The same idea. It must be that it's missing something from the inside. So how are you allowed to be matter the lungs that have a needle inside be Then they sent that same lung to for p'sak. He also wanted to be matter. And allowed me bifnim. And didn't want to make a p'sak. The treifa and said the animal is a treifa. Now the told me to say They were matter a case of a market found inside the lungs. The reason they are matter because they know that the lungs were still intact. There were no holes. There was no sir. Even though that's not a they were allowed to be on the fact that the needle might have been absorbed into the lungs all you did the trachea and all you day a punctured hole. A none though may is a tam nature. We're talking about a case where this lung was already sliced up and we have no way to verify it was a complete lung beforehand. Cuz maybe if the lung would still be intact we would we would see a small hole and therefore it would have that race and we can therefore we have to be but time of the laser. The reason why we're saying this lung is treif is because it's not intact anymore for us to actually be by the kid. If it would be a completely intact lung then it should be kosher. I number of Nachman high sim finer the raya the in cave treifa. If you have the sim finer the bronchial tube was taco punctured it's going to be a treifa. Now the mesa if you find the market inside the lungs and we're saying it didn't get stuck through the outside that means it had to come all you day the sim finer and therefore it should be a treifa from a minor shock like of Nachman pass skin which the more answers that who look at the vera yet more of Nachman was saying this like gabe one of these sim fineness that was punctured against the adjacent sim fineness. So all the mall a hole in the sim fineness is not going to make the animal to a treifa because the actual muscle of the lungs will seal it up. But if Nachman was talking about where one of these sim fineness that had a hole in it was just below the juncture of two of these sim fineness where they're too close together to allow the lung tissue to seal it up. As Rashi explains one tube can't seal another hole cuz the tube itself is too hard. The armor of Nachman high hydra the counter the in cave la hadi khavre making a lay. This is the intestinal tract that has a hole in it so because it's all coiled up one part of that coil can protect the other and seal the hole of the other part of that same coil. So in the same way one bronchial tube should be able to also close up the other hole in the other bronchial tube. Armor of Rashi treifa is coming down you're trying to compare one aspect of a treifa to another aspect of a treifa we don't do that. Ain armor of treifa is zoo diamond la zoo. This is an important halacha. You just can't compare one hilcas treifa to another and I'll give you an example. If you cut in one area the animal is going to die and if you cut another area of the animal it won't die. We're talking about specifically in the leg of the animal. There are sometimes you cut in a certain low down part of the akiva lamata that's going to be treif but if you cut high enough, it'll actually be kosher. And the halacha is that's kinigid what one would assume. Like, the higher you go, it's actually be makhloket masai mana. In fact, we're going to see later in the sugias that if you cut in a place where it's going to be treif, can you now turn around be machshir the animal by cutting higher up? Al kol panim, you see that you can't be madama treifus la hadadi. Ahi makhta, the ishtaka in simfina rabba d'reya. There was a case of a makhta that was found in the simfina rabba. That's like the primary bronchial tube of a lung. Aisula kamit rabbonan tarfoi. They brought this lung to the same rabbonan that had already said the animal was a treif by the case that we said talk about earlier. But they were not able to say and they didn't say anything. They wouldn't say it was treif or it was kosher. They didn't want to give any definitive psak. Heter leyamri but they didn't want to say heter because they had said beforehand that the animal should be a treif. So, they weren't going to go kinigid with their own psak. Issur nami leyamri but they also didn't want to say it was a treif because kivan that the simfina rabba ishtaka since it was found in the primary bronchial tube, simfina rabba, eima simfina nakuv asai. It's it's possible to say that the makhta came through and that's how it ended up in the lungs and it didn't have to go through the digestive tract. And because of this likelihood, it's less mistaber to say this animal was going to be a treif and therefore they didn't want to assur. And we are going to call it here, pick it up with ahi makhta for tomorrow's daf.