Chullin Daf 39

Okay, daf lamed test this is Monday's daf. As we continue our discussion about shechting for a Is that going to pass the shchita or not? And the issue is whether or not the goy's potentially avoda zara dika machshava could impact your shchita. So our mishna gave us a machlokes Tana Kamma and Rabi Eliezer. And the Gemara suggested they both hold like Rabi Eliezer bar Yosi that it shall baylim mefaglin that the baylim can have a pigul impact on the kohen's shchita, which then brings us to Rabi Yosi bar Yosi's kasha about the sa'ita. But now we're up to an ika de'amri, three lines from the bottom of the amud on lamed ches amud bais. "Bishminai dechoshuv pligi." The Tana Kamma and Rabi Eliezer are arguing where we heard the specifically say he wants to shecht for avoda zara. In such case, because Tana Kamma is sover "Ki amrinan zeh machshiv zeh oved." Where do we say that the bad machshava can impact the other person who's doing the avoda? That's "Tani meili bifnim." That's only inside the Bais Hamikdash. "Al bechutz." But outside, like what we're talking about over here, a regular chulin animal outside the Bais Hamikdash, "Loy." Because "Chutz mipnim loy yalfenan." We're not going to learn out the halachos from inside the Bais Hamikdash to outside the Bais Hamikdash. The "Oser Rabi Eliezer leimar." Comes Rabi Eliezer and says, "Yalfenan chutz mipnim." We "Taka do learn this kind of bad machshava from inside the Bais Hamikdash to outside. Therefore, the baylim in this case, the can passul the shchita." The "Oser Rabi Yosi leimar." And then Rabi Yosi comes and says, "Afilu bifnim nami zeh machshiv zeh oved loy amrinan." We don't even say that the baylim can impact the shchita even inside the Bais Hamikdash. And therefore, the problem never gets started. "Zog the Gemara, itmar "Hashechitas beheima lezorek dam le'avoda zara." You may remember we've had this Gemara already. If somebody shechts an animal and there's nothing wrong with the shchita, but after the shchita he wants to use the dam to do avoda zara with or "Laktar chelbavoda zara" or he wants to do some other kind of avoda subsequent after the shchita. So does it "Shair the shchita?" "Rabi Yochanan omer, pasula." Rabi Shimon ben Lakish omer, "Muter." So Rabi Yochanan and Rabi Shimon ben Lakish are arguing whether or not this shchita will make it "Oser behana" even though the shchita itself was done for chulin. Just I wanted to subsequently do some avoda zara with the products of the shchita. So Rabi Yochanan omer, "Pasula" because "Machshavin may avoda le'avoda." So the avoda zara in the avoda can affect different aspect, which is the shchitah. The al finam chutz mi pnim we're also going to learn the halachas from inside the Beis Hamikdash, namely piggul, which its very nature is to do an avodah after the fact chutz l'zman and chutz l'makom, and that ruins the shchitah also. So, according to Reb Yochanan, it's both the kutzos and machshavin me'avodah l'avodah and the al finam chutz mi pnim of Reish Lakish and Reb Yochanan because number one, ein machshavin me'avodah l'avodah, and also v'lo gamrin chutz mi pnim. So, he argues on both fronts. V'azdu l'tamayu, and both Reb Yochanan and Reish Lakish are l'shitasam did mar shachta l'shma. If someone brings a korban chatas for the sake of a korban chatas, but l'zoreik for a different korban, so in such a case, Reb Yochanan number pasul, Reish Lakish number kasher, and Reb Yochanan number pasul because machshavin me'avodah l'avodah like we're saying now. V'gamrinan machsheves piggul. However, Rebbi Shimon ben Lakish number kasher because ein machshavin me'avodah l'avodah and v'lo gamrin machsheves piggul. Now, even according to Reish Lakish, who says that the shchitah is not going to be pasul, it's not like it's okay to do this. If the guy's intending to do avodah zarah, he's going to be over the aveirah, could be chayev misah, etc. And Ta'anis does speak this out. The other issue here to deal with is the fact that the shchitah should be pasul on him being a mumar. And we had a similar kind of an issue when we talked about the shchitah on Shabbos. And this is where Ta'anis establishes his idea that if you only do something once, you may not be classified as a mumar. And there are other turisim in the Rishonim, but this is the place to talk about that issue as well. Anyway, we have this machlokes of Reb Yochanan and Reish Lakish in two different contexts. U'tzricha, and we need them both. Did mar b'havai if it only said by avodah zarah b'chol komo Rebbi Shimon ben Lakish, b'shum d'chutz mi pnim l'yafin and avodah pnim mi pnim, when they're both inside the Beis Hamikdash. In a mighty day, Reb Yochanan, maybe Reish Lakish would be maskim to Reb Yochanan because that's where the l'lo l'shma aspect is happening, by the korban chatas. And maybe that would tackle pasul. And if it mar b'havai if I only knew about the case of shelo l'shma by the korban by he komo Reb Yochanan, that's where Reb Yochanan would say you're machshavin me'avodah l'avodah. Aval b'havai by avodah zarah, in a mighty day, Rebbi Shimon ben Lakish, maybe Reb Yochanan would be maskim to Reish Lakish and tzircha, and therefore I need both machlokus. Now, let's finally bring it back home. Why are we even talking about this? Moseiv Reb Shishis omer Reb Yosi, Reb Yosi said in our Mishnah, kal v'chomer hadvarim, we made a kal v'chomer to be machsher the on behalf of a guy because still we only care about what the kind does and not the so whether is no place but in addition if we don't care about the guy thinks now the guy needs to clarify what did he said my my telling me that doesn't matter at all when it comes to that's not true. How will you ever have a case of when you're for of course matters when you even must be we're talking about from one aspect to another like the to the and what means to say is may and we only care about what the kind is doing during his so and so therefore we shouldn't care what the guy has to think. So and this is not going to make a difference between and and this is not going like and and therefore meaning that it won't pass in the case of as he holds that we're not even for and and what he says about is not going to work out like that holds that will even pass and really I can actually work out like and like because the same and what he says is maybe it depends when had heard the from he changed his mind but what he says about the and is not going to affect that certainly going to affect which answers this is his but he's talking about the four he says this is what he means to say since by Kaddish animals, the wrong mash is going to mess up one of these four Ikra Vidas. But yet still ain't a whole still we only go by the one who's actually doing it, meaning the coin who's shucking and not the by them turning over to the base. Malcolm Shane mash by cells by the Vidas. What about by them? We don't have dollar Vidas. This is just the and then there's the evil that you're doing for the Zara. And I didn't show you how to shake it. Call him with there's less Vidas here. We should only be viewing the one who's actually doing the Vidas, meaning the shaking himself and not the by them guy. And Danny also by them. I shake it by them with dollar Vidas by shaking an animal to do this for the Zara. Allah is array of Mason. It will be awesome. It's going to be a problem. And therefore this an animal is awesome by them. Continues the show of the car. He shake by them. Let's say after the happened. That's when he decides he wants to do this Zara with the dam and the so we don't know at the time of the what his intention exactly was. Is that how you might this is a story that happened like this in below above Israel had to and they didn't want to give a Why didn't they want to give a because I'm like about mission to Rabona. They didn't want to give a else the covered of the Rabona meaning our who holds that we don't immediately assume the guy is intending to do a and also they had to they didn't want to give a mission to who holds that the guy always intends to do the Zara. That's the reason why they refrained from giving a when they didn't know what the was. Now we might why you saying the price of this way? Dilma I've got to go by them with the kosher. Maybe the Rabona were only saying we don't assume that he intended to do a Zara where we didn't hear him say that he wants to do a Zara. I will the the kosher member over here by this who subsequently said I want to do a Zara after his Rita. So sure we didn't know my the but afterwards he said what he wanted to do. And therefore say if I say the end of the story tells us what the beginning of the story was. I wanted to do a Zara. So we can all assume this guy was doing a Vedasara and therefore this evil mumar who's doing a shrita should aser his animal. Or in other words, I could say it the flip way. I could kind of look at Rabbi Eliezer ben Azarya and the only time Rabbi Eliezer is so machmir that we assume he's doing a Vedasara is because he's talking about a guy who's doing a Vedasara. This time we have Rabbi Eliezer and that's what the guy does. A Yisrael or a Yehud even though he said subsequently he's planning on doing a Vedasara, it's not a raya. We're not going to assume that we're not going to assume just because he went off the derech subsequently that therefore his original shrita was also a shame of Vedasara. So, you don't So, the case could go either way. So, Rabbi Shimon ben Gamliel, what's the shot why they didn't want to give a psak over there in the case of Kisri? They don't want to give a heter also to the kavod of Rashba or Rabbi Shimon ben Gamliel who holds that we do have a chiyuch al chiyuch. Okay, now the Gemara needs to establish what's the precedent that we know that Rabbi Shimon ben Gamliel says your chiyuch al chiyuch. And now we're going to go through different cases. Hi Rabbi Shimon ben Gamliel, which halacha of Rabbi Shimon ben Gamliel are you referring to? Rabbi Shimon ben Gamliel de Gittin. What's the case in Gittin? Deit's non. Because the Mishna says in Maseches Gittin "A barish omer kisvu get l'ishti." Let's say a guy says, "Write a get for my wife." And the important thing to point out is what he didn't say which is give it to my wife. He just has to write it. So, we assume he's just trying to make her crazy and playing games and that's why he didn't say to give it to her. "U maiseh omer there was once a story about a guy who was healthy who said kisvu get l'ishti." Write a get for my wife. "V'al naf al ameis." Then he went to the roof and he fell and he died. "Omer Rabbi Shimon ben Gamliel, let's figure out what happened here. Im mayas mai naf al ameis again." If he jumped off the roof, in other words, he committed suicide, we can assume when he said to write a get for his wife, he also meant it write it and give it. But, if he went to the roof and the wind blew him off, then it won't be a good get. "V'havina bo ein." Over there in Maseches Gittin, the Gemara had asked "Mai salister?" Because lamister is two conflicting halachas. And the Gemara explains there's a chisrei mechsora over there. Chisrei mechsora "The hachi kitani im chiyuch al chiyuch." If there is a chiyuch based on what happened at the end to tell us what happened in the beginning, then "Haray zeh get." "U maiseh nami barish omer kisvu get l'ishti v'al naf al ameis." "Omer Rabbi Shimon ben Gamliel, im mayas mai naf >> So you have to stick in those pieces that because of And that can be the precedent for Gamaliel's understanding of Perfect Gamara. Maybe that case is unique. Over there he said to write a get. So there's already some evidence of what he's thinking even in the beginning. But here the gave no indication of doing that. He just and then afterwards he wanted to do that. And I'll show you a different case of Gamaliel. If you wrote all of them to be given to somebody else. But how you doing? And there were within those of them. And the recipient says I don't want these things. So the is in kind. If the second meaning the one who's receiving these was a kind. Then these are allowed to eat them. Because the of a kind are allowed to eat the of that who's a kind. Since these have now gone to the kind of a kind. Who's a kind they can eat them. It's kind of amazing. He doesn't even want these and he's getting them seemingly against his will. Even though he said he didn't want since the says I don't want these things. It skips over that and therefore now the kind receives the kind and not the kind of them therefore they can't eat the kind of them. I asked about this price. According to the kind of a kind of a who says the kind of a kind of these even if he's saying I don't want them. As he asks the kind of a kind of a kind of a kind of a Where do you ever find that someone gets something when they don't want it? It's a kind of a kind of a kind of a Where are they kind of a kind of a kind of a kind of a kind of I don't want these of I'm going to play the kind of a kind Of course he's not going to get a kind of a kind of It's a kind of a kind of a a kind of a kind of in a case of when the kind of a kind of was first quiet but then he afterwards said I don't want them. The kind of a kind At that point it was game over. He got them when he wasn't kind Later on he can't retroactively make the kind of a kind happen. But he played the kind of a kind The nice gave it to the kind of a kind of a party and it was working through the that case the show the Maccabee was initially quiet and then he later on was he protested so kind of over me the show since he was quite in the beginning therefore he gets it but how do you do this and now he's protesting my head of he changed his mind and that point is too late for no this is my God what he always intended but how do I make out of this that he didn't say from the beginning So I don't need to because it didn't come to my hands yet so I'm why do I even have to speak up so there you have your sheet of that's why I'm reviewing a lot of that the owner of the animals is not going to impact the and then we have a story there were these Arab merchants to listen to you they came to this place the top they gave their animals to the Jewish butchers to Rashi says these were therefore I guess they wanted their meat even though I don't know what meat really is but whatever they gave it to the Jewish butchers to them the Jewish said to the butchers the blood and the blood are going to be for us so we can use it for but the hides and the blood are going to be for you this seems like a pretty good deal do we have to be worried about the blood from these to make the animals it's interesting that we talk about the as the are not allowed I guess I wanted to suggest that perhaps there's a about over here that the talk of the and the talk about later generations like our believe in the same God that we do is just they have a about Muhammad etc but they're not and that's how we but I'm going to deal with these as so the was are they going to mess up the the that it will not impact the you are a okay Amar Lei Ravacha Breida Rav Avya Le Rav Ashi, Le Rebbi Eliezer. According to Rebbi Eliezer, Yov Lei Zuz Le Tabach Yisrael Mai. Let's say a gives a single coin, a zuz, to the Yiddishe butcher to buy part of the animal that's going to be Geshachten. Is that enough to mess things up? Because the Yid should just give back the money so he doesn't have this Goyishe involvement in his Shchita. Amar Lei Doctor Rav Ashi, Chazinan. Let's take a look at the Matzev. Ee Inish Almahu, if the who paid the zuz is a strong person, Dilei Motzi Min Shleih, it'll be assur. You can't push him off by giving him back the zuz cuz really you want to just give back the zuz. This is a problematic thing. I don't want to have the Goy's Shutfus in my Shchita. So I want to give it back to him. So then it'll be assur. But Ve Lo Ee, let's say he's not a strong person. So you should give back the money. You can tell him off. Amar Lei Reishach Behar, you you can tell him off and say, "Here's a head, here's a mountain. Go go bang your head against the mountain." Meaning, take back your money cuz I'm not interested. And if you don't want to take it back, it's your problem. You're going to have the loss because I don't care. I'm not Shchiting on your behalf. You can only do that if the is a wimp and you can tell him off like that. If he's scary and you can't, then you got a problem and therefore it might be a problem for the Shchita according to Rebbi Eliezer. And we're going to stop here and pick it up with the Mishnah for tomorrow's daf.