Chullin Daf 29

All right, daf tes. Friday's daf. Let's pick it up on chof tes amud beis at the two dots. The Mishnah had said chatzi etc. If you shecht half of one of the simanim of an animal or one and a half simanim of an animal, it's going to be pasul cuz you got to do rov of the simanim. That's what we understood. So, after the Gemara, itmar Rav Amar mechtza al mechtza k'rov. So, Rav, if you do exactly half, halachically we view it as if you did more than half. Rav Kahana Amar, no, mechtza al mechtza ein acharei. It's only half. It's not most of it. It's not the rov. Rav Amar mechtza al mechtza is k'rov. How does he understand this? Because the halacha l'Moshe mi'Sinai that Moshe Rabbeinu got, Hashem essentially told him tishayer ruba. Don't leave over the rov of the simanim. Meaning, as long as you don't leave over rov, even if you only shechted half of the siman, it's a valid shechita. But Rav Kahana Amar, mechtza al mechtza ein acharei because shecht ruba, which is probably what we would have thought that Hashem is saying, you have to shecht rov of the siman. Now, every time we talk about doing something that's half, you got to ask the question about efshol b'sam same. Tosefos over here, which is a similar Tosefos to a few other places in Shas, Tosefos draws a chilluk between the efshol b'sam same when it's al yedei Shamayim or when it's al yedei Adam. Cuz here, this is something that's al yedei Adam. So, could be over here it's efshol b'sam same, whereas b'dei Shamayim it's efshol b'sam same. Hashem could do it exactly. The Rambam l'halacha seems to pasken that it's efshol b'sam same across the board without making the chilluk of al yedei Shamayim or Adam. But there is an important Minchas Chinuch to know about them. Minchas Chinuch in Mitzvah kuf tes, when he's talking about the issur of making the shemen hamishcha, which has to be exactly the same way. So, he asks, well, if it's efshol b'sam same, how do you make the exact same shemen hamishcha with the same measurements? It's not shayeich. It's efshol b'sam same. Which the Minchas Chinuch says, the only time where we say efshol b'sam same, that's when it's not negei'ah to a mitzvah. But if the Torah said, don't do this and this is going to require an exactitude, well, then obviously, like nitna Torah l'malachei hashareis, and this is what the Torah meant. So, if the Torah said you got to eat a k'zayis of matzah, it doesn't mean you have to eat more than a k'zayis because we don't know what a k'zayis is. No, you can figure out what a k'zayis is. Even though we would think it's efshel let's say to know exactly what that kazayis is, doesn't matter. The our hashara of what the kazayis is is the kazayis and therefore also later in the malacha hasharais mitzvahs and averas that are negeya to a certain amount for all intents and purposes are efshel let's say. So that's an important when we're talking about these kinds of things. Okay, so siman katina gargaris and pegima. So let's let's ask from our mishna on Rav. Again, Rav had said that if you cut exactly half of the simanim, that's going to be halachically viewed as a Rav. Frect the Gemara. Mishna said chazi achad boif or likewise chazi bahema shita psula. If you only do half our mishna says it's posel. But if you like you Rav want to say, then am I posel? Why is it posel? Obviously Rav you myse shechted Rav even though it's technically only half, but we view it as Rav according to Rav. And for the Gemara you're right, it might be Rav but Rav dilma osi lemevid palga that in we're acknowledging that like Rav min ha Torah this would be a good shita but min Rav we're going to posel the shita because it's very hard to get to that palga and therefore we don't want the shechita mess up and therefore that's why min Rav exactly half will be posel. Next kasha. On Rav Katina Tashima chilke leshnayim. Let's say you take a clay herus oven and you break it into pieces. We know that the only way to be metair the clay herus for those of us who are learning mishnayis kelim now is you have to break it. Now if you break it into lots of small pieces it's going to be tair. If you break it into two pieces and one piece is much bigger, the big piece is going to be still tamei. But let's say you break it and it's exactly the same. The two pieces of the oven are are seemingly equal in size. The halacha is shnayim tamei. Both of them are going to be tamei because you can't divide it exactly in half and that's what the braysa says because it's something we have to that each of the two halves is the bigger half and therefore they're both going to be tamei. But it's from the braysa had theoretically you be able to divide it exactly in half because each one is only half and not a Rav. So am I according to Rav ikaruba and each exact half is halachically a Rav according to Rav. So both halves should be tamei. So papa no. There's a fundamental between these two pieces which is from the same cali. You can't have a rove and a rove. That's inherently impossible. It's not like when you're asking the guy tell me one at a time. Here you have both halves of an oven and both halves can't be a rove cuz it's greater than the sum of its parts if I'm saying that right. So, there's no rove from there. Fighter, touch him out. Let's ask from the brice that we had learned earlier. Let's say the did half of the corner and then we shot her and he waited. How long? Moving over to Kadish in enough time that would need to be for another and then he finished doing the cutting. Meaning he completely finished cutting the and then the now if you if you're telling me that when he shot half of the it's as if it was so then these animals already been made into a and for the fact that the says not that way that which the says me the who says the talking about at all where you need to it's now we know the difference is because the knife only you have to one of the and therefore if you if you're telling me if you want to learn like that a half cut is like so so then essentially you're done. You've already the animal perfectly and therefore it's going to be and if you so then then cutting half of that first is bad cuz it doesn't create any kind of because you only need to one of the two anyway. So, therefore like and is not going to have a problem from this so let's try another so let's say there is a it was already half cut before the had gotten involved in the story now the comes and he just does a little more to bring it to the now if you if you're telling me that the is like like you said this bird that had this wound that had it half open already it's like half of it was already cut and therefore it's already a possible because it's a treif. When it says shiny in treif, the be'in roiv near na'im, you have to have a bigger kind of a roiv, more than just this physical half which is halachically looked at as roiv like Rav says. But it has to be physically be roiv. And on this point there's going to be a machlokes rishonim about in general when we say this roiv, is it going to be near na'im? Rashi and the Rashba they talk about how it's near na'im and and in the Shulchan Aruch where it says that it has to be roiv of the siman like tzara, the Taz says that doesn't mean it's a be deminka. Doesn't mean you can like recognize it and see right away that ah that's for sure more than half. No, cuz when you first glance at it if it's tzara you're not seeing more than half. It's just near na'im the etzem that if you would really measure it carefully you would see it's taka mostly cut. But the near na'im is really a fuke a metza metza, but not that it's so obvious. So that's an important distinction that's going to be a halacha. Omar Abaye, but like all the acharei there's a kal vachomer that this should be like the roiv of the siman. When my treif is mashu mitreifa, very often by a treif even the smallest little hole will passel a shchita because the animal is now a treif. But still yet heicha be'in roiva when we require cutting roiv be'in roiva near na'im, you need that actual physical majority being cut. So shchita that the equal roiva is kashra. By shchita which there's never anything short of the roiv. So like all shchita be'in roiva near na'im, certainly when we talk about roiv in context of shchita it should be a physical near na'im roiv. So based on this kal vachomer the Gemara comes and says el dekol alma metza metza ainai kashra. Everybody holds both Rav and Rav Kahana hold that if it's exactly half it's never considered like a roiv. The chiyut mar deRav u deRav Kahana and this that Rav and Rav Kahana were talking about it's a very specific halacha. It's dafka inyan Pesach mar, the korban Pesach. Because Yisrael metza tme'im, at a time when exactly half of klal Yisrael is going to be tamei on Nisan when you bring the korban Pesach. So the halacha is Rav Omar metza metza is kashra, we treat it like the roiv and therefore they can bring it now. And Rav Kahana Omar metza metza ainai kashra, and therefore they have to wait for Pesach sheni. Rashi's Omar my time of the rab. Why by the carbon Pesach should the like arrived because carbon Pesach it says to me nefesh so so a person an ish he's going to be to that Pesach Sheini but it's which is that that's not considered an ish and therefore we'll let everybody bring the carbon Pesach now. Then the Mishna finally said if of one of a bird or of both of an animal going to be my time of the rab. We already learned this in the beginning of the Mishna where it said come out with the Mishna seems to be repeating itself that you need to cut right. Why is the time of fear that I said the end so Simon I'm because the two different going on in our Mishna. One's talking about one's talking about we'll see in a minute which one is which but the two different the and both of them there's a about doing right. The one if we only learned about the also you only need to do right mission the love of the I don't need the dam. I'm just trying to kill the animal. I will where the whole of is the dam. So maybe I can't get away with only cutting a right at the maybe the has to be a complete severing of the in order to get out all the dam. The and likewise if you would have only told me the of right by me the since I only needed for the dam of all the dam but by I don't even need any dam in the maybe I don't need to do more than the right and I can do exactly half. The time is therefore telling us both of us of the and the but okay I get the but where in the Mishna is either one talking about which one is which which one is which at the beginning of the Mishna in the latter part of the Mishna. So this is going to take us a little while we're going to have a whole bunch of different here to prove which one is the and which one is the but kind of first. The ratio of the same we're going to start off with and why the of our Mishna starts off if you let me talk about that the I'm going to look at me by the it's not shacking at all. The mission should start off with Malika. So I said the beginning of the mission was and the end of the mission is talking about Koji. So I say for the Koji but she tossed like share with the lotion at the end of the mission is it should say Malika maybe not I did the selling me behind my once the tunnel was finished talking about an animal to the effort we're going to use the same kind of but by the beginning of the mission is the we were really talking about a bird and he saw big Koji before talking about Koji the birds it should be very specific and that's all my house number one my house number two ratio of my house I'll show you that ratio of the mission is talking about because the mission says right at the beginning that if you shacked that we saw the Koji tell me that is talking about Koji it wouldn't be one Simmon cuz one of the kinds of Koji birds that you do Malika on is the the boy so you wouldn't be able to say a Simmon for actually the same thing that you're telling me that the end is talking about Koji but I have same question now at the end of the mission if you're telling me it's about Koji why are you talking about one Simmon the boy Simmon how you going to handle the so so thing tomorrow my right back and what does it mean the right of one of the Simmon and right call so in the economy by the if you're cutting both Simmon and you need right of each one the listening right Simmon really the mission should have actually said you're cutting both Simmon of the but given the not every kind of Koji bird cuts both Simmon there's also the so I can therefore we left it not so clear third Malachi with papa cuz the mission says the I see everything is also totally on actually cutting the breathing these arteries and so I am if you tell me the first part of the mission is talking about then shop here I understand why the would argue with the earlier but Koji if you tell me the ratio would have been talking about Koji about playing who has the whole point of the shakers Koji is for the dam so of course you got to cut the breathing so it must be the The of the mission is talking about the ratio of the a fourth Mahalach to show that the ratio is talking about whole in the safest time of Kodeshim and this time now he starts off with the safe. Safe of Kodeshim and may the Katana because the next mission coming up on Shabbos is daf says Russian if you line up two animals and do one across both necks. That's that's a kosher but is the evidence the whole expression of as we said many times is a expression. If you do it. Now if you tell me that the safe of the mission meaning this next mission is talking about Kodeshim away. It makes sense why you shouldn't do this because it is that you should check that two people shouldn't do one carbon. The whole word that you should check it teaches us the of it is who you should read the word like the way it's written with the sound after the but if you tell me the mission is talking about animals I feel there's no reason you shouldn't be able to do it one time because the whole is only about Kodeshim and since the mission said it's only twice the second part of the mission was talking about the Kodeshim and finally the mission of the whole how does he know that? May that of one is like the whole thing why are we teaching this seemingly extra line of the mission because we are learned in a different mission in the Yuma by the of the Godol which we always try to minimize because the has a lot on his plate and the mission over there says if you they bring the carbon so he makes the initial incision and somebody else finishes the job for him. I might have thought that if another would finish the job it would possibly so we learned that is all we need so that's all the Godol needs to do is start the process let somebody else finish it. So you see according to the first part of the mission must have been talking about the whole while the second part of the mission is talking about the Kodeshim and now we talk about this a little bit more. I might have thought that if another would finish the job it would possibly so we learned that is all we need so that's all the Godol needs to do is start the process let somebody else finish it. So you see according to the first part of the mission must have been talking about the whole while the second part of the mission is mar possible. I might have thought that if another kind didn't finish the kind God's job of shafting it, I would have thought it's possible turning over to the base. In case have you lay avoid the bar here. This finishing of the avoid is going to be considered like an avoid the bar here. If the time and we learned call of this in the coupon in the chairs a little bit. The kind God will himself has to do it. So for sure finishing this sheet that cannot pass all this carbon to me. In which case you can't really learn from this mission in Yuma that the sheet of kachin for both seem on and has to be totally done. So you really don't need our mission in the teachers the Swedish that Roy this could cool light for the sheet. Okay, so let's go back to race lock this what race lock really meant. You only possible in the bar here. I might have thought that if another kind didn't finish with the kind God will sheet that this carbon will be possible in the bar here. This is a kind of the coming in equal possible in the bar here. So a kind of the new rival rival in the behavior. If one does rival of one salmon or rival of both seem on and of the behavior it will be kosher even in the bar here. That's the point. I think the matter will be after the a few possible in the bar here. Why am I in the bar here? If you tell me that once the shaft of Roy there's not even a possible in the bar here. Then why in the mission in Yuma do we need another kind to finish the job the kind God will started? He's already cut Roy so the kind is already kosher. So if there is a mix with the bar here. You're right. There's nothing wrong with the sheet that but it's a mix with the bar in order to get more done. It's a more like a way to do it. And now we start a new on the way we seem to be living in the sheet that a little bit safe. When the sheet that happens it's not a slow process that happens the way it's at the very end. When you finish that moment is the sheet that yes no the sheet that makes it a lot safe. It's a process and you're incrementally doing it the whole time. I'm a rival a kind of a light in them. I think the sheet that is a kind of a light in them. If a guy would shaft one of the seem on and of the behavior the seem on and of Israel should see what that would not be a kosher sheet that why should I not go to my sister rival be out of the car home because in that case the guy already treated up the animal by cutting one of the seem on also by now where you also need to shaft both seem on and the Malik seem on and the matter where you did it below the seem on and the matter it will also be possible. Should I also be my sister seem on and the matter but like where is there going to be a lady seem on and a kind of a sheet that seem on and the matter it will seem on and the matter in different outside and inside the base Hamikdash. Who holds it's one long process then machayev. You have now been machayev yourself in this case because you schechted outside the base Hamikdash. So we're machayev because you did the schechita which is the end process inside the chotzer and therefore you're not chayev kares. That's where their machlokes is going to be. But the Gemara says no, I don't like that. Amar lei Rava bar Shimi back to Rava. He didn't explain the machlokes this way. Because he said hey even Lady Sado will hold that schechita is going to be chayev kares sha'arei also bam ma'aseh chatas so'ef because you did the kind of process that would happen for a chatas so'ef even though you were doing it for the oila. And therefore you did that bachutz outside the base Hamikdash so you're still going to be chayev. But we know where takah is the machlokes of Lady Sado and Rebbe Yochanan. The gomrei bifnim. It's a long process the machayev because then you did the process the whole time. But Lady Sado holds it's all the same we're machayev because you were not doing a schechita when you schechted the meat of the simanim outside the base Hamikdash. Let's do a little bit more. Most of Rebbe Zeira Mishnah in the fourth perek of Sefer Parah says that anybody who's osik in the parah adumah avodah mitcheles viad seif mitameh begadim as you know it's one of those paradoxical things that if you're osik in the parah adumah you become tameh yourself. So if you're osik in it the whole time you become tameh. And they also would passel the avodah of the parah adumah if they do another avodah at the same time. That's the halacha of parah adumah. Eiruv a passel b'schechita so if there is a passel in the schechita during its schechita whether or not it's before or after the parah will not cause the person to be mitameh his own clothing. If the passel happened during the hazah of the mechitas Okay, so that's fine. But let's ask a kasha now. like you Rebbe Yochanan said that you're involved in street of the whole process. So lift leg now maybe why is the time to jump into the house you can even say this during the actual street and kind of all one process so that it's not so this calculator we're talking about a case of when the street was ruined by the by becoming an shiny big the last come to was never a street so any of that happened before that will not even be the one who is doing the cuz it's a great there was never a street there to begin with and we are going to stop here and pick it up with for this stuff.