Chullin Daf 23

All right, Daf Chof Gimel. This is the second day of Yom Tov Daf. And we learned yesterday about this time period of these birds that are kinda nishta in nishta hair. When they age out, they're too old to be the benei Yona, but they're not quite old enough yet to be the teirim. And now we're going to pick it up eight lines from the bottom of Chof Beis Med Beis, where Rav Zeira is going to be asking about the nature of this middle grey area stage. It's going to yield more questions over today's Daf about these kinds of little middle grey area stages. Anyway, boy Rav Zeira, oh eima o ilemin oilemin benei Yona. Somebody says, "I'm going to bring a korban oila from either benei Yona or the teirim." Deheivi chailas hatziuv she bazeh v'she bazeh. He brought one of these kinds of teirim and benei Yona that have gotten this siuv stage, the golden stage. So, Rav Zeira has a shaila now. Mahu? What's going to be the halacha? Sfeika haveiv o lo haveiv o lo nothing? Is he yeitzei his mitzvah because it's a safek? It's a safek that it might be too young or it might be too old. Is that Is that the pshat over here? O dilma berya haveiv o lo nothing? Or maybe this time period is a vadai matziv of siuv. It's not something which is maybe kosher and therefore you won't be yeitzei at all. The Gemara says it is taka very difficult read. I mean, what do you mean if it's a safek you'd be yeitzei? Tosafos wants to know what we're talking about. You're certainly bringing a wrong korban. Mamon of shach freights this. One of them is pasul. So, Tosafos has a couple of terutzim. The first one is we're not talking about l'chatchila doing it. We're talking about if it happened already, are you okay? And then Tosafos has a second terutz which is really wild. He says in his inami that since you brought it to the kohen, you're yeitzei yedei nidrei. I did my job. I brought it to the kohen. It's a safek like Beis Shammai, so whichever one is the So, whichever one is going to be right, but I did my job. Cuz all you have to do to be yeitzei your neder is to bring it to the kohen. Now, l'chira that is a shtikel dvar peleh. The Mishnah in Me'ilah says my second korbanos perek dalet halacha hey asks a farkasha. What do you mean? What about the whole beginning of Maseches Zevachim? That if you have the wrong kavana, the korban is kosher, but it's not oila l'shem ba'alim. Why isn't it oila l'shem ba'alim? You brought it to the kohen. What happens afterwards should be not your problem. So, the acharonim, the Netziv, they've tried to say a different pshat in Tosafos over here that it can't possibly mean that you are done as soon as you bring it to the kohen. You got to bring it as a korban. But, al kol panim, our Gemara has a shaila. Rav Zeira is asking the shaila whether or not is the matziv of tzir or matzva of safek or a matzva of berya like a berya b'etzem a kind of a thing. Amar Rav Tanchuma bring a raya from a braisa because the braisa says at tzir v'shibazeh sh'pasul. Torah is m'mayet this matzva of tzir that both of them both the turnum and the ainah will be pasul. Now you have a bishlama berya you have a shafan you're telling me this matzva of tzir is a category that's pasul okay makes sense. Eliyahu m'tzaveh if you're telling me the whole nature is that we just don't know what it is is it considered old enough or young enough well then it's just k'ro l'meit safeka would the Torah need to be the m'mayet a case of safek? So it sounds like the Torah is talking about this as a vadai matzva of berya. Now there's two points to make on this gemara here. First of all just the simple question of it's k'ro l'meit safeka sounds on the surface like the shitas ha Rashba. As we know there's a big machlokes Rishonim Rashba Rambam whether or not safek d'oraisa l'chumra is a din d'oraisa or din d'rabbonan. The Rambam famously holds it's only a din d'rabbonan but the Rashba says of course it's a din d'oraisa. Safek d'oraisa l'chumra the Torah says you got to go l'chumra. Now this gemara reads that way because if you're telling me it's safeka havei it's k'ro l'meit safeka would the Torah have to be m'mayet safek? Well according to the Rambam sure because the Torah's not doing anything it would all be Chazal who are being m'mayet. So it sounds from this gemara at least from the pashtus that it's a raya for the shitas ha Rashba that safek d'oraisa l'chumra min ha Torah. But a very interesting issue here to talk about is Tosefos. Tosefos has a kasha on this gemara that why is the gemara assuming I wouldn't need to be m'mayet a safek? Well we do find that that gemara is m'mayet safek sometimes. A classic example like Tosefos is going to be kofetz al minyan one of the sheep jumped back in when you're counting ma'aser and you have 5,000 sheep in the pen they're all going to be putter from ma'aser because of g'zeiras k'vod ha'briyos v'vadai v'lo ya'aseh reishis safek. That's the Torah being m'mayet a case of safek. And also same thing by kodma b'har l'oven so l'chora there is a big makom to be m'mayet safek. Tosefos says and take a look at the second wide line of Tosefos d'chol safeka that this is a fundamentally different kind of safek because the kind of safek that we would need the Torah to be m'mayet like by a series safek as here by there's no way to ever find out. Every case is going to be different and there's no way to ever find out the information once it happens. However this is a more simple question what is the matzva of this kind of animal? And Shamayim knows what this is, and it's always going to be that same answer. So, that's not the kind of safek that we would need a miya takara. It's only the kind of safek that's in theory efshar lavrurei because of the motive. We don't know if the behayris came first or the say eleven or where the sheep is. Those are the kinds of things that we would have a gzeiras hakasuv for. Okay, but back to our gemara. Moving over to mem aleph. Why do I need the teretz miyamai de safek ki is krah? Not for safek, but rather limuteh nirbav nevad. A special halacha that a bird that was nirbav nevad lived with a person or was nevad for avoda zara is going to be pasul. Now, salt the hamina I might have thought lo siv ki mosh hasam bohim mumbom that we learn that you can't bring an animal for a korban if it had this hashgasha because it blinds a mum. The tan of the Rabbi Yishmael the braisa says kol makom shneimar hashgasha whenever the Torah talks about hashgasha ein ela dvar erva v'avoda zara. Continues the braisa dvar erva dichsib ki shish kol basar al ha'aretz. Avoda zara dichsib pen tashchison v'asitem lo pesel. So, we know we're talking about avoda zara and arayos. And we compare it to a mum. So, kol sha mum pasul by whatever would be pasul al gabei a mum also dvar erva v'avoda zara pasul by. Kol she'einam pasul by ein dvar erva v'avoda zara pasul by. Now, what about birds when it comes to mum? And for hani ayifas ayifas pasul b'hum muma. A bird does not become pasul like they mum. It has to be missing an entire ayver. Domar Mar, tamus dizachus d'beheima ein tamus dizachus b'ayifas. We don't have these dinim of tamus of being a tam not being a mum when it comes to a bird. So, eima I might have said therefore dvar erva v'avoda zara namila litzul b'hum kamashma lan the Torah to tell me that nirbav nevad is going to be pasul for birds and that is going to be the limud we'll learn here. Okay. But as I said, we're going to now talk about other mitan dika shailos of Rabbi Zeira. Boy, Rabbi Zeira. Hoymer hareh oiles beheima min ayil o min a keves. I'm going to bring an ola from either an ayil or a keves. That's two different ages of the animal. Keves is a lamb and it grows up and becomes an ayil. Right? Remember the gemara in Hagoyzel gone up to Lavanas ayil. The ayil is the older age. But what does the guy bring? He doesn't bring either. He brings beheimi palgas. He brings this mitan dika stage of a palgas which sounds like it's from the loshon of plug. Some say it might explain in loshon of pilegesh like a half a wife. But anyway, there's this plug palagus animal that's not quite old enough to become a ram. So, what is he makayem his neder or not? So, I'll leave it to the Rebbe Yochanan according to Rebbe Yochanan, there's no shaila. Domer Bereya Hava, he holds that a palagus is its own min. It's neither a keves or an ayil. So, he's certainly not yotzei did none. As the mishna in the first perek para says, "Hakriva, if he brings a palagus, neviyav love niskay ayil." You bring the nisachim of the ayil with it. Vain ayil alem izifre, but it doesn't count as his carbon. Viyomer Rebbe Yochanan, to explain this idea, because he says, "Ayil ayil is a ram is a palagus to include the palagus that it needs to have those nisachim." The fact that Rebbe Yochanan needs to have a drasha from the pasuk really indicates that he holds a palagus as an independent kind of a variant. Because if a palagus was just a safek, you wouldn't need to make the drasha from the pasuk. Even without the drasha, you would have to bring the nisachim may safek. But, getting back to our shaila kitiboy lech, when is there going to be a shaila bring the palagus? I'll leave it to the palagus to turning over to me base to masei umasni, that you can bring the nisachim and the carbon mincha of the ayil and you make the tnai, if this lives an ayil, if not, you know, in other words, you're looking at it as a safek. Sumai, me amrin ayil of a keves masna. That tnai that he makes, is it only about an ayil and a keves? But, bebereya lemasa, he doesn't have to have the third category that it's a thing by itself. Like domer bebereyanami masna, domer ibereya hava lehave kulan adova, is it its own category and after them is teku. By Rebbe Zeira, nacha shaila about a se'or. Ha'omer, "Harei alai lachmei teida." The lachmei that you bring with your carbon teida, it's 40 loaves, 30 of which are matza, 10 are chametz. What does this guy do? He says he's going to bring it mincha chametz or mincha matza behaivi se'or. And he brings se'or, which is its own kind of in between category. Mahu, is it considered chametz or matza or is it a third category altogether? Now, se'or deman, whose se'or are we talking about? E se'or deRebbe Meir, which Rashi speaks out, has the cracks in the dough, it's that stage according to Rebbe Meir. And leRebbe Yehuda, and you're going like shitas Rebbe Yehuda. And you want to know what would Rebbe Yehuda say in such a halacha? The din is matza malyosi. We know according to Rebbe Yehuda, the dough that has not yet developed these cracks is not considered chametz at all and therefore about it's considered matza. And e deRebbe Yehuda, like shitas Rebbe Yehuda, and you're asking leRebbe Meir, chametz, we know that's considered chametz. V'e deRebbe Meir, and if it's the se'or of Rebbe Meir, leRebbe Meir, so we have to lucky lecho to from the fact they're going to get malkus for eating it. So clearly Reb Meir holds that it is mamash chametz. So Ella Reb Yehuda must be we're talking about our shaila is the seer of Reb Yehuda. That Reb Yehuda might what's going to be the halacha? Sfeika have nafka mina Reb Meir if you're bringing this seer maybe you're yotzei your chiyuv for the l'chaim. Or don't bring it Reb Yehuda will be nafka. And since you said you're only bringing from chametz or matzah, seer is a third category and you're not going to be yotzei. But Reb Meir Reb Huna it's still going to be a problem because Reb Meir if a person says "Harei alai lachmei teida." If I'm going to bring lachmei teida maybe teida lachmei. Since you don't bring lachmei by themselves without the actual carbon of the animal, if someone says I'm going to bring the lachmei teida, we're just going to assume he's going to bring the carbon as well. The chiyuv lay b'teida v'lachmei. Since he's not muchiyuv in a carbon teida and all of its lachmei, how can we say he's yotzei his neder by bringing seer? Halo yoda ha'gever echametu. He doesn't know whether or not the seer blives a chametz d'leisi matzah, in which case he's only bringing matzah. Or imatzo hu or maybe the seer blives matzah d'leisi chametz, in which case he also needs to bring the chametz. He doesn't know what he's doing. So the Gemara says let's try to omer shaila would be "Harei alai chailo lifter teidaso shel ploni." I am bringing these lachmei to yotzei the chiyuv of somebody else's teida. I'm going to bring these loaves for somebody else, not the whole thing. In which case it could be it's either the chametz or the matzah. And maybe my seer would work for that. But safe safra the Gemara still going to be a problem because halo yoda ha'gever echametu d'leisi matzah imatzo hu d'leisi chametz. He still doesn't know which one he's bringing to know what the other ones need to be d'masha. Let's try to omer lifter. Maybe Reb Shaila is only talking about where the neder didn't say he was going to pop the chiyuv this way. So even though maybe the seer is not yotzei the chiyuv carbon teida, but maybe he's still being yotzei the promise to just bring it even if it's not the chiyuv carbon teida. And if that's the case Reb Shaila was talking about meipak gavrei y'dei nidrei nafka o lo nafka. What's going to be the status if he brings the seer? Is he or is he not going to be yotzei his neder? Of them is teiku. Baruch Hashem. We got our Yom Tov daf yomi done. Everyone should have a good holiday Yom Tov.