Chullin Daf 19

All right, Duff. You're test. Tuesdays Duff. As we continue to talk about how grama, which basically means shechting in the wrong area of the neck. And we're going to continue the conversation about how high on the neck can you go, picking it up from the very bottom of your chosam and base. Mar bar v'ashi omar pluga b'chiti k'sheira. If you shecht so high on the neck that you're already bumping into the chiti, which we touch this these wheat kernels and they look like wheat kernels, these pieces of cartilage, it will still be kosher. But shier b'chiti, treifa. Meaning if you get all the way up to them, it's going to be kosher, but if you cut some of them, it will not be kosher. Moving over to moad alef. The hilchisa mishupui koiva ulomata k'sheira, from that slope of the koiva, which is the very top of the konah, and downward that will be kosher, which is really high up. V'hainu d'shier b'chiti. And that's the same thing as saying that you left over some of the chiti, meaning you actually cut into the chiti. So it's actually the most makel of the shitas. There's a lot of room to shecht and this actually dispels the famous myth about a giraffe. We may have learned in elementary school that a giraffe really would be kosher, but we have no idea where on the neck to shecht it. It's not true. You can shecht the entire length of the neck. And the real reason why we don't eat giraffe meat is cuz it probably tastes terrible. think about it. When was the last time you ever heard of a guy eating giraffe meat? It's probably very hard to capture. The skin is very thick and giraffe burgers probably don't taste great. So Geoffrey from Toys R Us should be safe from our shechita. I think his name was Geoffrey. Rav Nachman achsher mishupui koiva ulomata, the same kind of a kulah. Omar lei Rav Chanan bar Rav Katina lei Rav Nachman kaman, who do you go like? Like Rabbanan u'lei Rav Asi bar Rav Yehudah. Because our mishnah only quoted both the Rabbanan, meaning the Tanna Kamma, and Rav Asi bar Rav Yehudah. And according to both of them, the top of the shechita is going to be the top of that tabasagadeila. The only question is whether or not you have to cut the entire area within that tabasagadeila according to Rav Asi bar Rav Yehudah, you only needed to do roiv of it cuz rubika kulai. But l'chora the shipua ulomata would certainly be no good. Omar lei Rav Nachman said back, "Ano lei chilika dana u'lei bilika dana." I don't know chilika or bilika. Rashi does suggest what this might mean, but in the end he likes best to say it's just an expression of I don't know your tweedledee or tweedledum or your hotson or your plots. Doesn't matter, it's just like chilika or bilika. I don't know what you're talking about. "Ano shamata yedana." I know what the amoraim say on this. Meaning it doesn't scare me that Rav Asi bar Rav Yehudah and the chachamim never heard these shittos because we said earlier a shitta from Rebbi Chanina b. Akiva that we quoted from the braisa that were more meikel than the Tanna Kamma and Rebbi Yishmael. Vi amri lo Omar Rebbi Abba bar Zavda Omar Rebbi Chanina vi amri lo Omar Rebbi Yaakov bar Idi Omar Rebbi Shimon bar Levi that the halacha is mashiku k'eiva ulam mata k'sheira. Vi Omar Rebbi Shimon bar Levi mugramis derabanan. Let's say a derabanan deka hagrama meaning you went too far out of the area mid rabannan. K'sheira l'Rebbi Yishmael b. Elisha. That will be a machlokes Tanna Kamma and Rebbi Yishmael b. Elisha. You'll still get your ruba k'chula. With Rebbi Yishmael b. Elisha in a shitta that is considered hagrama by Rebbi Yishmael b. Elisha that most of the shitta was above the tabaska d'ayla. K'sheira l'Rebbi Chanina b. Akiva who is more meikel. Well, pshita obviously that's exactly what their shittos are. No, because Rebbi Chanina b. Akiva is derabanan k'ai and therefore he's only arguing with derabanan but he's maskin to Rebbi Yishmael k'mush mulan dera. So Rebbi Shimon bar Levi and Rebbi Chanina b. Akiva is also arguing with Rebbi Yishmael. Oh, v'eima achi nami. How do you know that's true? Maybe Rebbi Chanina is maskin to Rebbi Yishmael. No, because im kein heid aleha mi bo'ilei. That would have been the lashon that the aleha is talking about that memra. And therefore Rebbi Chelkis Rebbi Chanina b. Akiva k'ai or Nachman K'vasha. Omar Ravuna Omar of Assi machlokes b'shishochat. Now we get to some interesting lumdus on how we view different shittos. Omar Ravuna Omar of Assi machlokes the machlokes Tanna Kamma and Rebbi Yishmael b. Elisha is b'shishochat shnei shlish when you first cut two thirds of the kana meaning within the tabaska d'ayla. Vi heigrim and then you go out of the area shlish on that last third. So again, two thirds properly the last third was improper. In that case derabanan savi kulo shitta b'einan tabaska d'ayla. You got to do the whole thing within inside the tabaska d'ayla and you didn't. So it's possible for Rebbi Yishmael b. Elisha savi ruba k'chula and therefore you are A-OK. Aval heigrim shlish v'shochat shaini v'shlish. Let's say you swapped the order and the first time you did it improperly with hagrama but the last two thirds are within the actual legal limits of the shitta and therefore you might think that Rebbi Yishmael b. Elisha will say it's okay because he still have the ruba k'chula of a kosher shitta. No, derako psula. Why? Because the chinuch when the animal's life went out to be in ruba b'shitta v'lecha. So you can't just look at the totality of the cut but you have to look at the process and you see when the died. Rebbi Chisda Rebbi Chisda is back to Ravuna ad rabba. There's a machlokes when you do the first third with a hagroma, and then the last two thirds are okay. That's when there should be a machlokes. It's no different than if you have a chotzi koneh pogum. Chotzi koneh pogum is a case when you have a pre-existing condition that there's already a pogum area on the koneh. And the shochet didn't have to do a full schechitah. All he had to do was kind of extend that opening to make the schechitah into a full schechitah. So the end result is completely a severed koneh like it's supposed to be. But the process was started because of this pogum, because of the pre-existing condition. Rebbi Yishmael Rebbi Yehudah says that that's okay. But Rabbanan, it's not dami to a case of meidei dehavei chotzi pogum because over there by the it's actually in the correct location. If you're doing it above the tabaska de'ilah, so you're being magrim the animal, if that's the right word. You're having hagroma problems in that first third of the schechitah, and therefore when you're actually doing the schechitah, it's not a kosher schechitah. Let's say the first two thirds were cut properly, and only the last third was a problem. Well, devar hakol she'eirah. Even Rabbanan will say it's okay. Dehotz nan ruba shel echad kimayu. Mah name olam da huruba dehasam. Who says that that rov that we're talking about over there is lav that it wasn't Rebbi Yishmael Rebbi Yehudah. Dilba Rebbi Yishmael Rebbi Yehudah Katana Lav. And not she dis Rabbanan. But Rebbi Nachman bar Rebbi Nachman might say you have to cut the whole thing, and you can't say ruba kakulei. Omer lei Abaye. Abaye says back to Rebbi Yishmael. Otu kol ruba de'alma Rebbi Yishmael Rebbi Yehudah Katana Lav. Everybody holds a ruba kakulei. So you're not going to make a machlokes between Rabbanan and whether or not you hold a ruba kakulei. So Omer lei Rebbi Yishmael says back to Abaye. No, no, no. Of course everybody holds a ruba kakulei. Ano ruba de schechitah kamina. Whether you apply the concept of ruba kakulei to schechitah, that's going to be the shaila. Dishamanu lehu de pleig. Because I have a mesorah that the Rabbanan and Rebbi Yishmael Rebbi Yehudah argue about this very nekudah, whether or not you apply ruba kakulei to schechitah. Now lishana acharina, this is going to be another lashon of exactly the same thing with who said what. Lishana acharina amrei lah Omer of Huna, Omer of Assi. Ushachat shnei shlish. >> If the first two thirds were done properly and the last third was done improperly and it wasn't and they kept on arguing. Everybody holds of a cool way. And that's what my message was that the was about by okay. Let's say you cut a beyond the area you're supposed to cut. And then you do a proper in the right area. And then you go out of the area again. So there was so there was so there was a a What's the of the of the By the time the animal's life left it, it's leaving the a that's the middle part. That's when the animal's left. The totality of the has two parts one part and therefore it's not going to be kosher. So it's a a a a is going to be but they actually brought the to and he said so he heard that said it was going to be What I say is not kosher he says it's kosher. What I say is kosher and he says it's so in the previous case of or he keeps saying the opposite of me. Yeah you know you have a good point he reconsiders. First of all he's saying over here from Rob. I didn't hear anything from Rob I was just saying it on my own at the end of the day there is a this neck basically is giving two reasons to be either the part the the death of the animal was a or the totality of the whole is cut all you know either one of those would be enough to be a back to like to don't be what you're saying turning over to the now you can have to be on the first thing you said where was that I might have over there you said it was going to be because what was the reason that you said that because at the moment of the death of the animal could not because that's that point not so you're going to have to say the same thing in reverse at the time when the animal was dying in a case of is the actual important point even though you have but at the time of you're going to have to should be possible according to you and therefore don't be over stick to your guns they asked him let's say you do a proper for a third then and then what's going to be the is meaning where where the actual cut in the neck of the animal is a jagged cut it still doesn't have to be complete straight line in the animal's neck of course the knife has to be smooth we're talking about the actual cut so it's a case of or maybe was talking about a case where it's not a straight line but it doesn't mean it was outside of the it wasn't a total so it wouldn't be a of course it's a and now because being a maybe you need to have a clear like a lotion of uncovering and you don't have such a cut because you're starting in one place and you're going to another area on the neck and you're coming back to that place I might think that's not a good so that it is but you don't have a that would work according to him so basically you have a a de Rav Kahana. Vi Yosef Rav Kahana Kamei de Rav Yehuda. Vi Yosef Rav Kahana. They're all sitting and saying, "Shachat Shlish, let's say you do a shlish properly. De Hagrom Shlish and then de Shachat Shlish. So, Shita Hagroma Shita, Mahu de Halacha?" Amar lei, "Shita Saik She'eira." Now, Hagrom Shlish vi Shachat Shlish de Hagrom Shlish. So, first and third are Hagroma, middle one is Shita Mahu? Amar lei, "Shita Saik Psula." Okay. Shachat bimkom Nekev. Let's say de Shita is happening through a pre-existing hole in de Kona Mahu. Amar lei, "Shita Saik She'eira." As we spoke of beforehand. How about Shachat Pugah bi Nekev? Let's say when you shacht and you get up to de hole in de Kona Mahu. Because in this case, there's a pre-existing hole. And de way Rashi learns is de hole is in de back of de Kona, closer to de neck bone. And de Shachit which starts in de front, now reaches this area in de back. Therefore, I essentially finishing de Shita for him. Mahu? Amar lei, "Shita Saik Psula." Okay, but also Rabbi Abba Amar Kamei de Rabbi Elazar. Also Rabbi Elazar Amar Kamei de Rabbi Yochanan. Amar lei Rabbi Yochanan to Rabbi Elazar, "Mishna? What's de difference between cutting through an existing hole or reaching de hole that's in de back of de neck? Why did Rabbi Yehuda say de first Shita is going to be kosher while de second Shita is going to be possul?" Amar lei Rabbi Elazar back to him, "Because Shachat bimkom Nekev Nazkimisha Shachat Yisrael bigomrei Yisrael." De mushul would be of a shachting de first part and de Yid finishing it. In which case it's a kosher Shita. However, Shachat de Pugah bi Nekev is but let's say you're shachting and you reach that Nekev. Now, de Nekev is essentially what finishes it, but de Nekev is not a Shita. So, that's Nazkimisha Shachat Yisrael bigomrei de Nekev. It's like a Yid starting de process and de finishing it. And that's not going to be a kosher Shita. Karei lei Rabbi Yochanan said, "Look at me, this explanation of Rabbi Elazar that Oiver Kahavim bi Oiver Kahavim." Now, Avani, he wasn't calling him a Shaigetz. He was just saying, "Goyim can shacht all de livelong day, it ain't going to help because it's not a good dimyon." Amar Rava, and Rava explains, "Shaper Karei lei Oiver Kahavim bi Oiver Kahavim. Why? Because Bishlamah de Chazan bi de case of de Yid and de where de Yid starts and de finishes it, that's why it's going to be possul because mid de Havlei Yisrael limshoch Ruba. De Yid needed to do Rav of de Shita bi lei Shachat. And therefore, key Nafkah key Yusa when de animal's life left bi Oiver Daif Kahavim key Nafkah. It's happening all you did the hands of the guy and but in the case of where half of the was already cut before the street has started. Cut the that makes the animal die. So if the hole was there where he's or is meeting up with the hole that's in the back of the either way the is doing the process here and therefore it should be kosher. So let's see you from the sides of the neck from the how many minutes to do you from the sides of the neck of the bird and let's see you from the what's the literally means the back of the head but the is going to explain it means the back of the neck the nape of the neck. So if you do the from the from the from the from the from the from the from the from the from the from the throat from the front of the neck from the from the from the from the from the from the from [clears throat] the from the from the from the from the from the from the from the from the from the from the from the from the from the from the from the from the from the from the from the from the from the from the from the and likewise is possible so my friend what is the definition of an even means the back of the head which is how we would touch it my area I feel you wouldn't have this discrepancy cuz even would be possible if it's the back of the head and or I am the has to be done from that which faces the back of the head not really the back of the head and means that which faces the back of the head which is the back of the neck which is near the back of the head 20 safer call kosher and I don't even know how do you know that of the means the back of the neck the of the because the price is or all of it will it'll sit within the view of me the keep on I am a fact that my favorite is the price and need to bring this of the telling us that says they turned away from me and he you want to say that the reason why the price needed to have this also because I don't even know what I don't know what means to do so I am actually bringing this to actually define where the mole is. The Tushma, we need the possuk of Kipono Elai Oref V'lo Ponim. They turned the back of their head towards me, but not their face. M'chol Oref L'hadei Ponim. All right, we're going to stop here and pick it up with the Amor Ben Rebbe Chiya tomorrow.