Chullin Daf 114

All right, today's daf is daf kuf, yud, dalet. This is shabbos, this is daf. As we continue to talk about yesur basar b'chalav, picking it up on the first wide line of kuf, yud, gimmel, alef, bais. Boy minei rav ach boy bar ami may rav. Although there is a shaila of the girsa here, it may not be rav, it may be rava or raba. But this is the shaila. Hamivashal b'chalav gidi sh'lo yanik m'ahu. What's the halacha about being mivashal the basar of the gidi in the chalav of the mother animal that never did any nursing yet? As rashi says it's krava l'imalei dasa. But we understand that the pasuk dafka talking about that eemoy that was already nursing. So amora lei says back me de itzrich l'shmuel l'meimar b'chalavi eemoy v'lo b'cheilev zachar. From the fact that shmuel had said at the end of yesterday's daf in the drasha that dafka chalavi eemoy is as opposed to chalav zachar, the zachar somehow developed the ability to make milk. But from the fact that he had such a drasha, we could be midayaig zachar hu d'lo yasir l'chlalim. Only a zachar can never come into that category and be m'mayit it's milk. Aval chai, l'gabei this gidi, just because it didn't yet ever do any nursing, it even d'bol l'chlalim, it's going to be assur. Itmar, m'vashal cheilev b'chalav. If you cook cheilev, the kind of assur'dika fat, together with chalav, rebbi ami v'rebbi asi chad omer loika v'chad omer ein loika. It's machlokes whether you get malkus for that kind of an issur. So now zagt the gmora, what's their machlokes? Leima b'hacha m'fligi. D'manda omer loika because k'svar issur chal al issur. And the fact that the cheilev was already assur doesn't stop the new issur of basar b'chalav to be chal on that cheilev. But d'manda omer ein loika, as you can imagine, k'svar ein issur chal al issur. And therefore, since it's already assur, because it's cheilev, you're not going to have any issur basar b'chalav. And that's their machlokes. That's what the gmora wants to suggest, to which the gmora says no, it's not true. Lai, d'chul alma ein issur chal al issur. Which is of course what we want to say, that ein issur is chal al issur. So b'achila, on the eating of it, d'chul alma pligi d'lo loiki, everybody's maskim you're not going to get any malkus. But ki pligi, where is that machlokes between rebbi ami and rebbi asi? That's a bishul. Because manda omer loika, the one who says you're going to get malkus l'gabei that bishul is because chadi issuru. There is only one issur of basar b'chalav, there is no pre-existing issur. Because although you're not allowed to eat cheilev, there's no issur to cook chalav. So when I add the milk to the chalav, you're not adding to a pre-existing issur that's chal al issur when it comes to the cooking. But um and I don't really know like because you have to have the chalav and the bishul. The very fact that the Torah never said you're not allowed to eat basar b'chalav but only said it in bishul. So that connection is there to tell us the halacha moving over to aleph that even the chalav lucky a bishul nami lay lucky. If you're eating chalav that was cooked with chalav, you're not going to get malkus for eating basar b'chalav because of the ain issur chal al issur. So therefore a bishul nami lay lucky. So you're not going to get malkus even for the cooking. Tosafos wants to know why we didn't switch it around as the Gemara is actually going to do soon and say that since you are going to get malkus for the bishul, you should also get malkus for the achila. Especially when you make a hekesh we have a klal of l'kula u'l'chumra l'chumra machshinan. And the Ritva speaks that out p'feirish when he brings Tosafos' kasha. There's actually an important basic angle in the Asifas Devarim Rishonim when he discusses the idea of l'kula u'l'chumra l'chumra machshinan. He uses this Gemara to explain the chakira of whether or not that concept of l'kula u'l'chumra machshinan is a din safek or a din vadai. Are we only doing it because we just don't know or because that's an actual halachic psak. And he wants to make that the central issue of this sugia. Back to the Gemara. V'ika d'amri a bishul kuli alma lay pligi d'lucky. Everybody must him if you cook chalav with chalav, you are going to get malkus because that issur chalav is not relevant to bishul and therefore there's no issur chal al issur to prevent the issur chal al issur from being chal. But ki pligi al achila. D'manda amrei no like d'ha ain issur chal al issur. Um and like a why would you get malkus? It's l'hachi afka rachmana l'achila u'l'bishul. It's a special gezairas kasuv. Kivan d'a bishul lucky a achila nami lucky. Hence the kasha we just spoke of from Tosafos that you see the Gemara is comfortable going in that direction as well. Or v'ei boy yaysayma. Mar Omar Chad Omar Omar Chad v'lay pligi. In other words, both Rav Ami and Rav Asi are maskim that if you're m'vashel the chalav and the chalav, you're going to get malkus. And everybody's maskim if you eat the chalav with the chalav, you don't get malkus. And really there is no machlokes at all because when one of them was talking about getting malkus, they were talking about the cooking. And one was talking about not getting malcus, they were talking about the eating. Now, there's a really important Rebbi Akiva Eiger to know that's based on the Rambam that makes a psak on this Gemara where the Rambam paskens that if you're mevashel chelev with your cholov, you're going to get malcus. But you don't get malcus through the achila. And the Rambam explains you're not going to get malcus on the achila of the basar b'cholov when it's with chelev because as the Rambam says, "Ein issur chol l'issur." And sha'ein kan I'm reading the lashon of the Rambam in perek tes, halacha vov, "Sha'ein kan l'issur kayil v'lo issur mayisa v'lo issur b'vasachas." The three exceptions to the rule of "Ein issur chol l'issur" are going to be issur kayil when something else becomes ossur, or issur mayisaif when the issur becomes more chomer, or b'vasachas if they happen at the same time. None of that happens with the issur of basar b'cholov. Frect Rebbi Akiva Eiger, a bam kasha. You're right, the chelev which is already has a pre-existing issur is not going to have an issur kayil l'issur mayisaif and it's not b'vasachas. But frect Rebbi Akiva Eiger, the milk l'chayirei is an issur kayil. The milk was totally muttar. And now because you've cooked this chelev together with the milk, you've now ossured the milk. That should be classic issur kayil. So why isn't there going to be an issur that's kayil on this issur? And frect Rebbi Akiva Eiger, because the issur basar b'cholov is unique in the sense that basar is ossuring the cholov and independently the cholov is ossuring the basar. It's not one matziv of issur that applies to both of these objects. And therefore it's not negaid to issur kayil because it's not being kayil on something else. It's completely independent. So that's the yesoid Rebbi Akiva Eiger to define the whole issur of basar b'cholov based out of that psak of the Rambam. Back to the Gemara. "May savei, you want to tell me that basar b'cholov is not going to be negaid for chelev and cholov because of "Ein issur chol l'issur"? I got a braisa here that says "A mevashel b'mei cholov is patur." Let's say you want to cook the meat together with mei cholov. Mei cholov is not milk, it's the water of the milk which is what Miss Muffet would titche as whey. So the halacha is going to be it's patur because even though the mei cholov is technically milchik, but it doesn't fit the description of actual cholov. And therefore not ossur. "Dam shebishailei b'cholov, if you cooked dam blood with cholov with milk, you're also going to be patur from basar b'cholov." What some of these are not going to fly on them. We're going to be these other parts of the animal that you cook with milk, you're also going to be put there cuz it's not called a g'di, which is a reference dafka to the meat. But, here's the punchline. Pig and nicer and tamay b'chalav is going to be chayiv. You're chayiv basar b'chalav if you cook with kodshim b'chalav, even though that basar was already asur, it was kodshim. So, l'chara, basar b'chalav is going to be chal on a pre-existing issur. But, the Gemara Tanna Sova issur chal issur. Don't bring me a kasha from that braisa cuz that Tanna actually holds issur can be chal issur. So, the Gemara says "Ameivashal b'mei chalav is putter." If you cook the meat in the way, you will be putter. So, Masai l'Reish Lakish, why? D'itnan because the Mishna in the sixth perek of Machshirin says "Mei chalav hareini k'chalav." We know that milk is one of the seven liquids the yad shachat dam that is machshir things l'kabel tumah. And mei chalav, the way, is like chalav in that regard. V'ha mei chal, hareini k'shemen. And the water that comes out of the olives, not quite olive oil, but that mei shemen, but that mei chal is considered also like shemen to be machshir l'kabel tumah. Amar Reish Lakish l'Shmuel l'hachshara says Rav Huna, that's dafka l'gabei the hechshara for tumah. Aval inyan bishul basar b'chalav, as Reish Lakish says, "Mei chalav einan k'chalav." So, you're not going to be chayiv there. Tanna Rabbanan in the braisa says "B'chalei eimai, eini ela b'chalei eimai." Dafka it's mother. Aval b'chalei para v'rachal minayin? But, b'chalei para v'rachal minayin? How do you know if it's milk that comes from a different animal, not a g'di, how would I also know that it's going to be asur for issur basar b'chalav? So, amar kal v'chomer, "U'ma eimai," meaning the g'di, "Sh'eini asur eimai b'harba," there's no issur of harba to be to mate the g'di with another g'di, but yet still ne'esar eimai b'vishulai, you can't cook it with its milk. Para v'rachal sh'ne'esar eimai b'harba, there's an additional issur na chumra by the para and by this rachal, by the sheep, which are asur to mate with the g'di. Eina din sh'ne'esar eimai b'vishulai? Yeah, you have a kal v'chomer that its milk should be asur to cook with the g'di. Talmu d'lameir b'chalei eimai. So, the Torah therefore tells us a second time "Chalei eimai" to extend the issur basar b'chalav even to the milk of the cows and the sheep. It is actually connected to what it said on yesterday's daf that chalavi mai is coming to be the chalav of a zachar or a gashut an animal or a temei'a. That those things are already in this mai because they're not imai. For example, the Gemara why do I need a passuk to teach me to assur the milk of the cow with meat? Ha assur alei, the braisa just gave me this kal v'chomer and the kal v'chomer seems to be very logical. But Amar Rav Ashi, you know why we don't want to go with the kal v'chomer? Because the kal v'chomer is a din d'oraita. It's a flawed kal v'chomer because meheichan kamai is law. What's your whole basis to say that the chalav of a para or a rachel is going to be assur to cook with the g'di? It's me'imai because you tell me there's a chumra of harbu'ah with the para and the rachel that doesn't exist by the g'di. But mali imush kein assur me'b'shchita. But I'll show you another chumra between mother and offspring which is the is ayin v's b'nai that exists by all para, rachel, and g'di. Timer b'par sh'lei assur me'b'shchita. That's not going to be a problem to shecht the cow and the g'di in the same day. So I have a kula now. So that what you were trying to show as a chumra of harbu'ah, I'll show you as a kula by is ayin v's b'nai. Tam u'lameid b'chalavi imai a second time to be marbeh the issur of chalav even from a para and a rachel. Tani idach, another braisa says b'chalavi imai ein li ela b'chalavi imai, but b'chalav achisa g'deila minayin? How do you know that it's assur to cook in the milk of this goat's older sister? Such a funny hava amina. Why would I think the g'di would be mutar? But it could be that since basar b'chalav is a chiddush ein ba ela l'chiddush. Therefore, maybe it won't apply to the milk of an older sister animal. But now the Gemara is going to go through a kal v'chomer to show that it should be true because Amar kal v'chomer mai imai she'nichnas imai l'dir l'hisaser. It's possible theoretically for a mother and offspring to be nisaser in the same year. Because it all has to happen with these goats that are all born in the same year. So you have a one year old goat that gave birth to another goat. So in theory they could both be l'dir l'hisaser and that's l'chumra. And therefore they have essentially that kind of ability or kula to be necessary in the same year. sh'lei na But the God of it's older sister born in a prior year, which does not going to be in addition necessary in my position. That's like a camera that it can't be necessary for certainly to be also to cook its milk together with the good deed sister. The time of learning the Torah told us that there is going to be the issue with the milk even with the older sister. But Taco used the camera camera. So no mission vehicle member me camera that There's a flaw in this camera camera. Because where do you want to learn of the camera camera from me? You want to say that there should be a camera camera to ask for the milk of the older sister together with itself. But the camera camera is going to bite on me but my lady magic can I see him a bit sweeter because there's a necessary of a service tonight to me about the little way necessary in my position. There's a different cooler by a crazy. So therefore time of learning the camera camera, you can't use the camera camera and we had to have this third time where it says camera camera to even ask for the milk of a sibling of the good deed. Okay, ask for the good deed but I crazy I can tell me nine. How do you know to ask for even a younger sister who Taco would be necessary in the deal with his answer because they're born in the same year and for the Gamora ask you me baby yeah. We'll make a shower from the other two existing issue room of bus with color with the mother and bus with color with the older sister. And this is how it will work. May hate to see from which of the two issue room of bus with color should you learn it from? Taste me email meaning to compare the younger sibling to the email by saying just as I get a sir to be my virtual the milk of the email. It's also a sir to be my virtual the milk in the younger sister. You would counter and say my lady magic can I see him a bit sweeter also a service tonight but I crazy good deal where you do have the issue of bus with color but there's no issue of a service tonight. But my lady magic can I see him a bit sweeter because you can't be my answer the older sister from a different year. So you might take you out and never have a closer than the right Zachary said the right Zachary said a shower shower shower ahead to bus also the virtual the color. It's all meat because that's what's in common with these things and you cannot cook your milk in meat. So I found you a crazy good deal bus bus also the virtual the color. Frank the Gamora yeah if you're telling me you don't need a possuk for the Katana cuz you can already learn from this side of Shava of the mother and the older sister. A case of a dealer not me take see me being here. The should also have that side of Shava from the two Eastern that we already know about about being washed with the deal with the Halabi might and the milk of the Rachel or the para. To which the Gamara says you're right in a Gamara. We don't need a possuk to tell me about the Halabi of the older sister. Ella Balaam, why do I think I need that third time? Me Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya Balaam and the Ella Balaam turning over turning base of the Halabi Balaam and the Tanya with its mother, meaning that female horse. So here also, that pre im ho aim isn't always necessarily going to have more isser. And therefore, you don't necessarily see that the product of it itself is going to create more isser. And maybe it won't be usser to cook it in its own milk. We have a pircha from that case of mating horses to upshlug the kal v'chomer, which the Gemara says it's not going to be a pircha because ussem zeroha av hu d'kagarim. The reason why it's not usser is the uniqueness over there because it's the zeroha av that causes the isser, and not the actual union of the pre and the aim. And I'll prove it to you. Because the hupereh ben susya achi pirdeh yachid, because a mule that's the son of a horse who's the brother of a mule can illustrate this. Shemoter pre im pre, the product is motor with the product because they're both mules, but ve'usser pre im ho aim, because those are actually different species, one's a horse and one's a mule. So let's take another run at this kal v'chomer. Elo omer mar baray d'ravina mishum d'eeka l'maymar eved ben shifcha achi meshuchraris yachid. I'll show you you need a passuk for pre im ho aim, and you can't use the kal v'chomer, because you have case of an eved kinani who's a son of a shifcha who's the brother of a meshuchraris. Because in such a case, she'll usser pre im pre. In that case, the eved is usser to live with the pre, which is the shifcha meshuchraris, but still yet, umoter pre im ho aim. The eved can live with the shifcha who has the same status as this eved's mother. Because he's motor live with any other shifchas. Rashi speaks out it's minee immo because we're not going to actually have him live with his own mother, but that kind of minee would be motor. So even though the Torah assers cooking the giddee with his mother's milk, maybe it won't usser cooking with its own milk cuz it's its own pre. And therefore, you can't use the kal v'chomer, and we need to have the passuk. To which the Gemara says that's not going to be a pircha because ussem get shichur hu d'kagarim. That which causes the sister to become meshuchraris is the get shichur, and it's not because the fact that they're a product of that same mother. It's not the pre kite. D'eved ben meshuchraris achi shifcha yachid. That's illustrated by the fact that an eved, the son of a meshuchraris who's the brother of a shifcha would illustrate this. Shemoter pre im pre, but usser pre im ho aim. Because still, that eved is usser to live with the shifcha mother because the son is an avid and the mother is a full-fledged yidden at that point. Let's try again. Hello You know why I need a possuk to the giddin not rely on the kal vachomer but because I see from kilayim zaroyim the issur of planting different kinds of minim of seeds. Shall also pre-aim pre-aim. You're not allowed to plant two different kinds of species of seeds even though they're both the product of the same source, the source being the earth here, the ground. Umut pre-aim but I can still put that product meaning one kind of seed into its aim meaning into its mother earth. So therefore I would also say I can cook this giddin in its own milk had it not been for the possuk. To which the Gemara says no cuz kilayim nesar pre-aim pre-aim ela al yedey aim. There's only an issur of the kilayim because of the mother. There's no issur of wheat and barley in a kayli together. It's only when they're put into the aim. So since the whole issur only exists when both factors are present meaning two different minim together with the aim. You're not going to see from kilayim that there is a bigger chomra with the pre-aim aim. So the Gemara finally says you know why the kal vachomer is flawed because the kilayim pre-aim pre-aim shekan cuz they're two distinct independent things meaning the giddin and its mother's milk. You're going to say the same with the pre-aim and the aim of who produced it. So that's the concern with this kal vachomer and that's why and that's why the Torah said the third time tell you that's assur to cook the giddin in its own milk. All right, even though it's halfway through this we're going to still stop here and we'll pick it up with for some days after.