Chullin Daf 11

All right, daf, you're at alif, Monday's daf. And let's pick it up on the second line on amud alif. Min ha milta d'amar Rabbanan zil basar ruba. How do you know you go basar rov? It's interesting how the Gemara over here, and on yesterday's daf when we talked about chazaka, uses the expression of min ha milta d'amar Rabbanan, as if to say these are dinei d'Oraita, when we're bringing mekaros d'Oraisa. So, before the Gemara gets into the whole teretz, Tosefos right away jumps on the kasha. And in the second Tosefos over here of min ha milta, asks, we know there's a klal of ruba v'chazaka ruba yadif. And now that we've established chazaka, so automatically we know there's a concept of rov. And Tosefos himself gives two terutzim. The first one's kind of a hard one to believe, that the whole next couple of blot are really only asking in shitas Rav Achai bar Yaakov, who didn't learn chazaka min ha Torah. That was from the end of yesterday's daf. But Tosefos now says a more famous teretz, that really the makor that ruba v'chazaka ruba yadif is from Parah Adumah. Because even though you have a chazakas tumah, but the rov that we need to be machshir the Parah Adumah, as we're going to see more about in today's Gemara, is essentially telling us that ruba v'chazaka is ruba yadif. The Rashba has a slightly different approach. And the Rashba says the only reason we're able to say ruba v'chazaka ruba yadif is because we can establish that rov exists min ha Torah. And the way to understand that, perhaps, is based on the acharonim, Rav Buchanan and others, who say that there's a fundamental difference between the hanhaga and the hachra'a of chazaka, where we just keep things in status quo, and the biur, the actual more vadai'dika answer to our question that comes al yedei a rov. So, once we have a makor min ha Torah that rov, which we're understanding to be more of a biur, well, then now we can understand ruba v'chazaka ruba yadif because the biur trumps the hanhaga. So, the Gemara wants to know what's the makor, and that's what we're going to spend the rest of today's daf on. We're not even going to finish this question. But the Gemara first wants to know, what do you mean Nolan? De hasiv Achai Rabbanan l'hatos. We know that when you have a Beis Din you go basar the rov in the majority of that Beis Din. So, that tells us right off the bat that you go basar rov. That's a din d'Oraisa. To which the Gemara says, no, ruba d'isa kaman k'gon tish'a chanuyos v'sasan cheder. When you have a rov that's in front of us, like the nine stores that sell the kosher meat, and the one store that sells the treif meat, you to the piece of meat in the parking lot. You go bust the right stores or going bust or this is Sanhedrin. How many different days? That is a Rubik dice come on. That's like coming by line. You're right. That's a puss again the Tyra Acharei Rabim L'hachlatas. But coming by line is a Rubik dice come on. Let's say it's a rave that's built on statistics cuz it's not in front of us. Could go and cut in the katana that they're allowed to do the Yibum even though we don't know they may be an islander. Me know and how do we know that? How do we know Rubik dice come on is also a din de rice that we could be same as now we're going to get into all these different makars but first you got to say over the famous Mar Makom right here from the Mordechai that asks how can you go bust a rave by a Sanhedrin L'chiyera they are kavua, right? They sit in the Lishkas Hagazis and they give their psak. L'chiyera ain kavua godol mizeh and therefore how do you go bust a rave by a Sanhedrin itself? It's the kind of kasha that you know has to have a teretz. So the Mordechai gives two teretzim. So the first teretz the Mordechai gives is because you only say kavua when there's a taruvis. But here there's no taruvis. We can see which dayan says what thing and therefore you won't apply the principle of kol kavua k'mechtza k'mechtza dami. The other teretz that the Mordechai says which is like wow wild is that it's takanas kavua. Either dayanim are sitting there. Yeah, but we're not going bust a rave of the dayanim. We're going bust a rave of their psak and their psak came out of their mouths and therefore it's parush. So you'll say kol de parush is meruba parush. Wild. But perhaps the more famous Acharei Nishteretz that Rav Chaim made famous in the Gra L'shas built on the Tosefos in Bava Kamma on Chaf Zayin Amud Beis where Tosefos is going on the Gemara that we say ain pelachin b'mamon Acharei Rabim and he wants to know why don't we say there should be a kal v'chomer from dinei d'forashos that we would go bust a rave. And Tosefos says that dayanim are shiny because the miut did who is kamisha ainai. And if you think about it it's kind of muchrach that way because if I have three dayanim and two dayanim say one way and one dayan says the other way and I go bust of the two dayanim why am I not lacking three dayanim for a Beis Din? Teretz is cuz you need to reckon zich with even the miut and the entire Beis Din is looked at as one unit. That means that we have to say that the miut is kamisha ainai and it's bottle. Rav Chaim says this is actually the makar for bottle. Like how do you know that something is bottle in a rave? Well, you see from Beis Din because the miut dayis is kamisha ainai and becomes part of the larger mass of bezden. Remember that would answer the Mordechai's question also. Why don't we say kol kavod that means because the mia isn't even there. Okay, so now we're going to get into the riyas again specifically for Rubba de Leisa Kaman because we know Rubba de Leisa Kaman and some of them are going to be accepted, some of them won't be accepted. Asiya may rasha shol aila. Let's bring a riya to Rubba de Leisa Kaman from the fact that you bring the head of a carbon oila. Don't mark over that the coin has to cut the carbon oila into different pieces. Oila that the coin has to cut the carbon into pieces. Well, in the in the but you can't cut the pieces into smaller pieces and therefore you can't cut up the head of that carbon oila before you bring it on the mizbeach. Well, if you're bringing the head whole on the mizbeach shaminik of krum shol mayach, maybe there's actually a trayfus inside the brain of the animal to trayfa. The only way we can bring this thing legally without actually cutting it open first is to say we're going to say Rubba de Leisa Kaman that ain't no trayfus. But I mean my dilma de falila de clay. Maybe the carbon oila does require you to actually open up the head and check it out. Now, if you don't cut the pieces of the carbon oila that was your problem, well how do you cut the carbon oila that was your problem? Well, how do you cut the carbon oila that was your problem? That's only a problem when you cut the head into two pieces. Well, how do you cut the carbon oila if the two parts of the head are only cracked open but you actually don't separate them from each other? Maybe there's no problem. So you don't have a riya that you can't actually check to see the trayfus. This idea of things that are still connected even though they're cracked apart actually is an idea regarding a pitam that's connected to your esrog but is hanging by a thread whether or not the pitam is still connected. There's a that says you see from this gemara that it's still considered like it's attached. It may be a different problem of not being hadar but it's kind of an interesting idea. Okay, so we gave up on that one that's not going to be the marker for riya. So my brother I see that the issur of breaking the bones of your carbon pesach. You're not allowed to break the the carbon pesach. I have an idea maybe there's a trayfus in there. The only way we can bring this thing legally without actually cutting it open first is to say The right brain is saying in treifas. You go to lay some on. Because me my deal with the monarch Gamarta alive maybe the coin was able to put some sort of hot thing like a hot rock or a coal on the skull of the animal and it would burn a hole through it. So therefore you're not going to be over the issue of but you can check to see that there is no treifas in the mayach. Did Tanya because it's the price of says So that's not going to be a raya either that we say right brain is saying in treifas and we go come on. So let's try a third time. If not from the tail of the carbon carbon that you have to put the on the and the tail goes all the way up into the body as we're going to learn more about in the third the whole to me ma the whole goes on the back. Actually there's a treifas in that in the spinal cord. Which would make the animal into a treifa but yet we take the entirety of this without checking it. And a lot of the brain is why is right brain is saying in treifas and we go and now we say and now maybe you want to suggest that we disconnect that that tail from the bottom of the spinal cord. So therefore the whole spinal cord has no treifas in this part of the rest of the body that can't be cuz we are welcome you need to have the tail right up all the way into where the kidneys are and we have to just assume that the spinal cord is completely intact and there's no treifas. So how do you have a right so what do you say me my deal with the maybe the coin just cut up the area of the took a look at the spinal cord and saw that there was no problem. The to me ma if you're saying you can't cut it up and cuz it has to be to me ma that mean when you only cut it into two distinct pieces. I will have the life less than maybe you just kind of make an incision so you can inspect it you're fine. So we also don't have a right that you can go so now the is going to give us some rights that are actually going to work. So I see a roof the whole >> That the sense of terror says who are roof and we dodge that it has to be a shallow limb and not a treifa when you do the arifa when you cut off the head of that cow. Who says that it matters if it's a treifa? Where did the Torah ever say that an egg lamufa has to be not a treifa? Well, the answer is we do know it has to be not a treifa The egg lamufa we use an expression of kapara just like we talk about kacham and therefore it can't be a treifa. So you have a raya that Ruby the laser command says right be honest and treifas and egg lamufa is a first successful marker for Ruby the laser command. But now the command is going to keep on trying apparently not everybody's happy with all these different makairas. Not egg lamufa but rather parah adumah. So when the parah adumah has to be burned on Har Zeisim it has to not be a treifa. How do you know that it's not a treifa? And since right be honest and treifas we could say the Ruby the laser command is what we can go bust on. Now we could say to my Who says it can't be a treifa? The Torah says kar yorachman and we call a parah adumah a chatus and therefore it's imperative it does not be a treifa. So that's another marker and let's try to spoke out and this time we're using the right to go connect it to the chiskas tuma of the person's tumas mais. Shalayach that's the sar la zozel. And they have to be identical. The lecherous turning over to me base now treifa who? How can you say they're both identical? Maybe one of them is a treifa. Now we could say to my who says that it can't be a treifa? I would say back Both animals have to otherwise have been ready and ready for a carbon but the girl just says which one goes for the azazel. Maybe after the animal goes off the cliff, I can check it out to see if it was a treifa. But what now? It's not going to work cuz the mission in Yuma says, "Lo hoya magila meches is a hard doesn't [laughter] even get halfway down the mountain." I should not say a varam a varam gets broken apart. So there's no way to check for treifas after they threw it off the cliff. Okay, so all of these basically have been the same raiv of raiv beheima saying treifas. Now we're going to give a different muker for a different kind of raiv. Rav Mari Amar ask me make it over the eemai. The Amar Rachmana katli. If somebody would lay a lay no hit their parent, their mechuyav meesa. Now we lay shdem lavavou. Who says we know that this father is the boy's father? Maybe it's not really his father. Ela lav mishum d'amrinan tzelba saruva we go b'sariva v'raiv b'eelis acher habal. So when the Torah says you're mechuyav meesa for hitting one's father, vice asia you're being sameach on the raiv that the kid's not a mamzer from somebody else. Now fratik amar me mai? Dilma k'gan chayu av v'eema chabushim b'veisa surin. I maybe I'll tell you the case is that the only time you're mechuyav meesa is when we can guarantee that there was nobody else involved cuz the mother and the father have spent the past t'kufa before the baby was born alone in a jail cell. So we can certainly say that the father is vadai the father, but even then the Gemara says you can't bring raiv because if a halacha ain't up a treifus l'rayus, there's just no way to know for sure that some other man could have been this boy's father. Ela mai we're always ultimately being sameach on the raiv, raiv b'eelis chochen acher habal. There is a kasha asked on this Gemara based on the Yerushalmi. So the Yerushalmi in the 11th perek of Yevamot says that the make of av v'eema has to be av vadai. That you have to for sure know that it's the father. And the question is can a raiv say something is for sure a vadai? We know that Tosefos in both Maseches and Bava Metzia says that asiri vadai v'lo asiri sofek cannot be achieved based on a raiv. That's the Rosh that is brought by the Shita Mekubetzes over there. So if raiv doesn't establish a quality of vadai, why would we execute somebody for hitting his father when we can't establish that it's vadai is aviv? So the answer that I would give and I heard from Rabbi Gross was mechaven to the dvar avraham and Rav Berach Tam's hagoyis on the Shmaitsa that the only time the Rosh actually says that raiv doesn't make something into a vadai, that's dafka by aruba d'isaka mana. And I would even push it further that it's ruba d'isa kamon that's a kol d'parish meruba parish. That's when you don't have a vadai. But ruba d'isa kamon, like roiv be'eil's hochacha rabal, it would make a vadai. And the way I would explain that is the yesod that I like to keep coming back to, that I believe a ruba d'isa kamon, especially kol d'parish meruba parish, is always a step removed from my shaila. That I have these different groups of things in front of me and I say it came from this group, umameila, this is my psak. Mashankein ruba d'isa kamon, that the statistics is actually being meira directly on my shaila. This child in front of me, roiv says that he's from the majority, that he is actually the product of this particular father. There's another machlokes based on Rebbi Akiva Eiger that anachahami, roiv might only make a safek and not a vadai, but once it's chazak because of other dinim, then it becomes, for all intents and purposes, a vadai. And when a child is born, there's all kinds of halachic issues that we have to establish. So that roiv, hayais the roiv itself only makes a safek, but once it's already applied and we're being noheig halachas based on it, then it's chazak called the roiv and then it certainly becomes a vadai. All right, getting back to our gemara. Now more roiv is that we can go by ruba d'isa kamon, Rav Kahana omer asya meihoyreg es hanefesh. From the fact that somebody who killed somebody, dam al rachmana katlei, that we execute the murderer. Now valech es tamatrayfa havei. Maybe the one who was killed, maybe the neherag was a trayfa. And therefore you're not muchayav misa if you kill a trayfa. So how do we know that we can execute the murderer? Ela lav mishum d'amrinan d'al basar ruba, and most people are not trayfas. Navchitem d'vadkinan lei, maybe we'll actually do an autopsy on the murder victim to see if he was a trayfa. You can't because of kavod hanavel. You can't do autopsies cuz it's menavel the dead body. I saw the Maseches Gemara over here and the Berurei Halacha discusses that autopsies that could help prevent future diseases, interesting topic. Navchitem even neshama d'havei. Now maybe because since you have somebody to save, meaning the murderer, we can save the murderer's life if we can suggest that the murderee was a trayfa. So this extenuating circumstance, l'chayara, should allow us to be menavel d'meis. To which the Gemara says, no, because of nega shama makom saif nakav havei. Maybe in the place where the wound was done, maybe there was already a pre-existing hole. In other words, the autopsy won't even reveal information that could be helpful. Could be there was a hole in his heart right where that shotgun went off. And says, you don't even try. Once already we have something to be that it's no longer considered a that we should try to determine whether or not the was a Ravina another that we go ask me do you have a that we do to the that which they were trying to do to the police do they try to have a how can we ever execute maybe the person that they're testifying about was a and they were only conspiring to try to kill a which is not Mesa that he wasn't a now maybe you're going to say after the accused right was killed based on their we can now check to see if he was a can't be because the price says and who's Rashi doesn't know but he was just one of the at the time low the and if the have not yet killed the with their then the will be killed if they're proven to be but once they've already succeeded in killing that and are not going to any longer get that punishment. So since the are only going to get that punishment if the is still alive we obviously can't do an autopsy to see whether or not he's a so must be we're being the right people are not we're going to hold off with the next one for till tomorrow and we'll pick it up from here then.