CHAZAQ's Torah Talks #136 Rabbi Mordechai Burg - Guilt vs. Shame

it's not the bite of the snake that kills you it's the Venom when you do an AA the AA doesn't kill you the feeling afterwards that's the Venom the feeling of that's what the Y wants that's what the wants that he'll get you to do something wrong and then the job of a is that we're going to fall down but what's the main thing that makes you a righteous person is the fact that you get back up you can't hate yourself into change if I'll only hate myself enough then I'll never do this again and it doesn't work because it's like drinking poison water like it satiates your but it's destroying your [Music] system and welcome to Torah talks kazak Tuesday night program with special guest we have with us all the way from AR Israel RAB Mor bur Shalom RAB nice to see welcome thank you so much for joining us kazak headquarters good to be here first time in kazak okay first many uh and we're going to be speaking about guilt vers shame and before we get to the topic a little bit background about the rabbi and the great work you involved with so I grew up in the five towns heard that place not far from Queens Queens is a place you visit when you live in the five towns you don't you don't ever leave the five towns Queens is known for the airport that's what people outside of Queens exactly on the way back from LaGuardia I used to stop in shimon's Pizza all of yeah and um grew up in the five town and got married actually married a girl from Queens nice and last name fold F oh m fold had a silver store here in Queens many years ago and uh and then 16 years ago now we moved to AR to Isel to a town called B shees and uh I'm very privileged to work in a yiva called measer which is ironically iner which is a suburb of and uh hang out there hang out with the guys yeah we feel it's amazing and uh so we're discussing before and about the fact that people do fail and uh the question is why does God put that into the system of this world why do we have to go through failure why could it just be Rosy it' be nice though it be nice right yeah the the rabbis say in the Mish that Hashem created the world because he desired to have a dwelling place in the world down below right it's not interesting to God to live in a spiritual world that's like Opposites Attract he wanted something that was other than him so he created us and by definition if we're other than God we're going to be imperfect so the nature of the creation because we're other than God involves a process of imperfection the entire world is always falling apart there's a certain chaos that exists here in this world but what God desires is to have a relationship with us and I think when we think about relationships so obviously it's great when a relationship is going well that's beautiful but real Oneness real intimacy doesn't occur when things are going well you really only married to your spouse when you're invited in to the areas that you don't want to talk about so there's always that period in dating where there's like that vulnerability of I want to tell you things about myself that I don't tell anyone else and that's when the Oneness really gets created and so there's a beauty to being invited into our lowest moments and I think that's what God wants from us God says I made you imperfect I love you not despite your imperfections but because of your imperfections but invite me in so if you do the wrong thing if you do an AA so do Chua and chuva means invite me in tell me what was going on tell me why you did those things what does it mean to you to do those things who's the person that you want to be so there's a lot of clarification that exists within ourselves when we do the wrong thing in determining how we want to move forward and if we can invite God into our lowest moments then we're in a real relationship with God very very true and very very very powerful and the fact that who God Almighty created I guess we'll say for lack of better words the concept of chuva of repenting that means that there is the fact that people will be doing wrong because if people wouldn't be doing things wrong then there wouldn't be the concept of repenting so uh so um in times of failure or in times of difficulty or those bumps in the road how does one stay positive how does one stay strong Kakak um you know I think that if you love someone because then you don't really love them because then you only love there's there's something that's right so if I love my wife because she's a great cook then I don't love my wife I love food if I love my kids because of the Legacy that I'll leave behind then I don't love them I love my legacy true and I think it's the same thing when it comes to God God does not love us for any reason because if he loved us because we did a mitvah because we followed his Commandments or because we didn't do an a because we stayed away from breaking one of his Commandments then it wouldn't love us then we just useful tools to doing mitzvos and doing AOS and if God really loves us then he loves us so we're not defined by our failures we're not defined by our successes God really loves us so if we do the wrong thing we can stay positive because we know number one it was part of the design number two this is an opportunity to bring God closer into our lives and to be able to really experience the vulnerability of failure within our relationship with God and finally it doesn't it doesn't Define our relationship there's an unconditional love that exists because he doesn't love us for any other reason other than just we are we exist har 100% true and there's a in their prayers we say we know the importance of not saying God's name in vain you know it's it's it's one of the Commandments and uh we say we say name who loves the Jewish people so we say with God's name and proves that loves us that's why we say every morning in daving the soul you gave me is pure the relationship with God can't be interrupted the purity of our soul it remains no matter what we've done because we're a piece of him that's what we are fundamentally 100% true powerful Rabbi ber we're going to turn the table around you know putting failure to the side people that are thank God they're successful they're doing well life is good life is great let's celebrate right so in those situations where a person thank God he has things going well for him how does he make sure that he doesn't have his head up too high he stays humble he stays grounded in a sense what do you suggest well you know it's a funny question a little bit because why would you get arrogant over doing the right thing you would you would get arrogant because it's like look what I did but the entire notion of a Mitzvah of following God's Commandments it's for him it's not for for us he asked us to do this Mitzvah so when we exist in the service of another the posture is one of humility our the natural Jewish soul is humbled before God we want to do what he wants us to do so our first reaction when God says do a Mitzvah because we're so overtaken by the love that he has for us is of course so it's like sometimes when you have little kids and they say like well why should I do this right if somebody has given you everything in your life and they say can you do this for me our natural response is of course and that's what the Jews said by har they said nishma we'll do and we will listen of course we want to know why we're doing what we're doing but we want to know why not because then I'll decide whether or not I want to do it we want to know why so that we can serve God better but our initial reaction is if you ask of course I'm going to do it's I heard a rabbi many years ago you know that little white foam that's like on top of a Hershey Kiss you know like when you when you open up a hershy kiss the little silver foil so there's always that white stuff so he said if you open it up and think Anthrax you've got a problem like what's going on in your life that you looked at that white stuff and said maybe that's Anthrax no you know it's just the rapper if your initial reaction when God says do this is wait wait wait what is that it means that you don't understand God's love God says I love you do this this is what I want you to do in this world this makes life's this makes life meaningful this makes the world a better place a more Godly place this makes you a more Godly person so when we do it we're doing it for him so we're going to walk around going I do for God no that's like walk it's like a husband walking around and saying I'm a great husband you're supposed to be a great husband you're there to serve your wife that's not a there there's no arrogance there that's humility 100% so we said the topic is shame vers guilt you know uh people go through difficulties their hardships and they they feel shamed and they feel guilty what what inspiration could we give to such a person yeah well I think it's important to define the terms true shame is the belief that I'm Unworthy of Lov and connection because of what I've done guilt is this Behavior was beneath my dignity and it doesn't feel right I deeply regret that and regret is a really healthy emotion you know a lot of the kids go no regrets you know I don't want to regret anything regret is a really healthy thing cuz regret tells me I don't want to I don't want to do that again that felt that felt wrong that felt uncomfortable able it didn't feel like it aligned with who I really am so guilt and regret are really healthy emotions shame we all have it but shame is something that needs to be worked through and the same thing is true when it comes to religion you know our rabbis always tell us you know you got to do a Mitzvah you got to do the right thing and don't do any AAS but again we're going to we're going to make mistakes we're not perfect the challenge is for so many of us that when we do the wrong thing there's this debilitating feeling afterwards I can't tell anyone about this I can't tell my friends about this I can't tell my Rabbi about this I certainly can't tell God about this even though he already knows but I don't want to tell him I don't want to live in that conversation because I believe that I'm Unworthy of love and connection and it's wrong it's wrong because again going back to that same principle God doesn't love you because he loves you and a parent who sees their child making a mistake is not distant from the child they're more concerned for the child so for example if let's say one of our children we told them listen you can go out but I need you to take an Uber back home because I'm not going to be able to pick you up so please don't spend this money use it on a cab and then the kid spends it on a cab I'm sorry the kid spends it in the mall let's say and doesn't spend it on the cab and now the kid calls the parent and says I messed up does the parent go well you made your bed now you sleep in it no the parent might be annoyed but the parent says I have to take care of you I I actually come closer to you in your moments of weakness when you're not doing so well a parent takes care of a child and the same thing is true with God we make a mistake and we believe now we're Unworthy of love and connection and it's not true God is closer to us in those moments he's more concerned and we have to be able to have enough of a sense of self within our tank to be able to say it's okay I'm a human being and then if you have that so then you can feel real guilt and you can say I'm a Godly Soul that's what I am in this world and this Behavior doesn't align with my Godly soul and especially today when there are certain behaviors that exist in the world that are very prevalent it's so easy to do certain AAS and there's a there's a certain feeling of like depression of just like I'm I'm bad because I did this and we have to tell these kids and ourselves and the adults frankly like it's a mistake it's normal it's human it's a growth oriented opportunity but it doesn't Define your relationship so we have to try to imp CL as much as possible according to what understand from the rabbi is that people go through these mistakes they have these difficulties these hardships they go through sin but they should they shouldn't you know have a domino effect what that means is that they they made a mistake they did something wrong and because of that doing something wrong they permitted you know they're going downhill so there's a famous saying I'm trying to remember where it's from that uh basically um that uh of Grossman he has a song I'm trying to remember it song goes as follow as that which means basically whatever happened happened the main thing is what to start fresh right it's not the bite of the snake that kills you it's the Venom B said you know when you do a when you do an AA so the AA doesn't kill you the feeling afterwards that's the Venom the feeling of that's what the Y wants that's what the wants that he'll get you to do something wrong and then the job of is that that we're going to fall down but what's the main thing that makes you a righteous person is the fact that you get back up you can't hate yourself into change I think there's like a like a like a feeling of like if I'll only hate myself enough then I'll never do this again and it doesn't work because it's like drinking poison water like it satiates your thirst but it's destroying your system we have to be able to move away from that 100% the rabbi is involved with so that's um a Bas man program that understand right so you deal with a lot of youngsters and stuff anything comes to mind of a s situation obious without names of a person that might have you know went down and then through this or inspiration these talks the rabbi or Thea that was able to come out of the dirt and become you know there's one story that comes to mind but I want to tell you it's really it's it's every day it's every single day the regular challenges of being 18 19 20 years old in Israel mistakes are there they're just like constantly in the water and our job is to create an environment of accountability but healthy accountability accountability that says we can do more but not accountability that says you're not enough and that's that's the debilitating part but I will tell you one story there was a boy without even getting into any of the details of the mistake it doesn't matter he made a bad mistake he had a really bad night one really bad night and you know he got called into the office and you know he was just deeply apologetic he didn't really need any discipline any punishment he knew he messed up he was he was a good kid he just had a bad night but the problem is he was so embarrassed because he was like I'm not that guy and I I just like I can't believe that now every rebi and yiva knows and every guy in yiva knows that I had this bad night and I would say for about the next three months he was really just he was so depressed he was so down and I remember we went out to schwarma we went out to hello tamon right at the entrance of uh Jerusalem and I said to him you know the only person that sees you this way is you like everybody else sees you as a guy who's awesome and you just had one bad night but you just like you have this part of yourself that's really just so critical and and I I think that part of you is Beautiful cuz it wants to make sure that you're never going to do this again but it's really not working for you you and I just want to give you permission to be able to let go of that part if you can just to be able to say like I appreciate the inner voice of criticism but this doesn't Define me today this is a young man Married with Children sat and learned for many years really just a beautiful person and whenever we do speak we often reflect back on that hello tamon uh lunch that we had and for me I want you know as a Reby it was such an inspiring it was such an inspiring lunch because even though officially I was the rabbi and he was the student I learned so much from him because his ability to say oh right it wasn't me and to be able to get back up it's it's something that stays with me and my own mistakes you know I think as rabbis sometimes we pretend that we're perfect because you know we're in this position where everyone's looking at us but we know ourselves that we're not and no one's perfect yeah and we need the we need the we need the the strengthening and the inspiration as much as anyone else 100% reminds me of um the spies when they went into Israel they said that they look like grasshoppers in their eyes and so they were in their eyes so the way they reflected the way they look at themselves the way others look at themselves and something that we have to all work on self self um uh you know inspiration and positivity and uh and the power of the Mind thinking positive beautiful words of inspiration inspiration um we have and T talks a final message there will be one final message I would say treat yourself with kindness and compassion he we say in D so we call out to God you know we we ask him for Mercy you know we call him a merciful god and then we say give us give us the capacity to understand and the question is what does one have to do with the other what does a compassionate God and having compassion on us have to do with anything about understanding in I think very often we think that if we're harsh with ourselves and if we're real with ourselves then we really know ourselves and it's not true whatever we do has to be put into context we all come from somewhere we have families of origin we have childhoods we all went through things we developed the way we did for a reason and when we're quote unquote real with oursel we're not very real with our s at all because you're not really understanding who you are unless you're seeing through the lens of kindness and compassion and so we call upon God have mercy on us and that's really a way of saying to ourselves have mercy on ourselves see ourselves Through The Eyes Of God so to speak and if we could see ourselves gently then we could actually see who we are and when we see who we are with gentleness with kindness we could see our Humanity so then we could actually begin to change because then we could say I'm understandable and anything that's understandable is forgivable and so the more I understand myself kindly the more I'm forgivable and the more I can move on and let go and be something more and I think we're all in process and I think a lot of times you know we think to ourselves we're 20 30 40 years old so we're like how long am I going to be in process for and now you see these people 60 70 80 years old my Rabbi who was one of the great Torah Geniuses in America um I remember when he was in his late 70s he once called me to apologize and I hadn't picked up the phone because I didn't see that he had called and he left me this voice message apologizing for something that he felt he had done when really he was right but I I remember being so inspired that here he was in his late 70s and he was still working on himself and he was still in process and I hope that we can give that gift to ourselves 20 30 40 years out just to be in process with kindness and compassion amazing Rabbi morber words of words of inspiration really appreciate all that you do for cl for the Jewish people really appreciate this Torah talk I want to thank every single one of you for joining us kazak's Torah talks with special guest Tuesday nights 8:30 p.m. Eastern Standard Time kazak uhli chq.org glive as well as a special thank you to toring time and many other platform players that host our podcast kazak Tor talks special thanks to our dear friend Dr Jonathan donath for making the sh for making the the connection my old roommate oh really wow look at that absolutely we were in me together oh wow as a student in now is amazing that's very inspiring and uh we give him a shout 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