Shiur: Pas & Bishul Akum, Rabbi Yitzchok Hanoka Mashgiach OK - Kollel Anash of Crown Heights - 5786

learner for this honor to be here. I was here at one of restaurants and fish. It's a honor to be back. Today's topic is uh so um what we'll do is we'll go through just to cover the and then I'm going to give you uh many many live examples of how we actually apply these and then some of the contemporary modern day challenges that we face and how we deal with them. So to start with the uh that said certain foods are us or to us in order that we should be separated from the and even though these don't have an it's in order the main reason is to prevent between the and the go there's a secondary reason brought down by bish which is um we're going to get later is and when people get together and they eat together it has a very powerful effect. So in a positive sense if you speak to they'll say a lot of people become nisk just by coming to the shabas meal not so much what was said but more the the aura the atmosphere has a very very powerful effect there's actually a story with the young rabbi who was in by the rebba I think in the 60s and they were trying to curb this event of assimilation and he said to the rebba they're going to have like lectures for the Jewish students in campus reb said make kosher cafeterias I mean so this is the is that Jews eating together sitting together will marry each other. So the yin will marry y the isra by pass is only an of not and um therefore was allowed to have enough from it without do business with it etc. also by past does not. So is the laws of past and then we're going to get into momentarily there there is and under ordinary circumstances we we would be to say that you do have to um so anything made from the five grains wheat oat spell fry or barley that are turned into a flour substance turn turned into a dough that would be of so that include breads include bagels, baguettes, cookies and the like and um in brings down that uh if someone was in a place where he cannot get past is m even under extreme circumstances. It's brought down also that even possible could be mutter under extreme circumstances. But because bread is high in it's brought down. Therefore the reason why they were learn that same because the bread is that's the reason why you want to be be sure to only consume products as you know are very very careful to only have products. I heard this from Yuslavski when using theb said these words. So this is something that's in the hallmarks of from uh from way back. Um okay. During a during a series even those that are make and um how to actually make something there are a few ways the should be involved in the actual the actual baking of the bread. So you could light the fire. You could throw in a twig. You could close the door of the oven. You could even put the bread in the oven. All those things would help. But from a practical perspective, we always recommend turning on the oven because that way any bread that's baked from that coyak of the yadis. So turning on the oven is going to be piro. If you just put that bread in the oven and then a puts in another bread in the oven, you are not mador the other bread won't be pos. So to have a lingering and last and lasting effect, we always recommend that you light the actual oven itself. Now there are things known as a telephone dial-up system. This was developed by uh some very very handy RAV where you can basically have an oven that's controlled that's locked and from a remote distance you can actually release the oven and turn it on from afar that also could make something potentially although it's not audi because there's a little bit of a concern in the heer that the did it the could be a thousand miles away he's on the phone he's putting in a in a code into this oven it's going to turn It almost looks like it's uh it's happening by itself, but it's something that would rely on even though it's not the most modern way to do it. Also, bit of to the fact it's made in a the between the and the is much mitigated anyways because you're not going to actually meet the end user. The baker and the end user will not meet each other. Now, how often you actually have to turn on the oven? I'll take questions. through. So the Raman writes kayim in those days they don't think they have the type of that we have today that stay on for very long periods of time. So there really is no um there's no exact share. Although most people would agree that being more often less often than once a month is already a little bit on the shaky side. All national would allow to be the once a month. If you're making something just the for example in breakfast cereals which I'll talk about a little bit later why then we would allow even less than once a month because the whole is anyways just the but really it's not you really can't say it's assur it's a it's a little bit of a in the hea the remembering but the oven is still there it stays on for a very long time in the olden days the ovens wouldn't stay so long you have to constantly tend to it so the matas was different um there are other types of devices that are used today in ovens, including glow plugs. And uh glow plug basically is a is a heating device that is wired to the oven itself. And it goes in on a separate wire, separate line, and it's sealed to the box. We cannot turn it on or off. It stays on the whole time. It's giving off heat at least 180° of lettuce by the in the chambering in the baking chamber of the oven. So even if the oven shuts down, you have the lingering effect of the yaji from that heat itself. And a glow plug is an accepted method for according to most. I want to add that did not like this method because he held that in order to make the hea of aid like the it has to be something that actually could bake the bread and said the the heating element is not going to actually bake the bread. It's only going to be with the rest of the heat. He didn't like it but all the other accept this methodology. It shouldn't be any worse. It's actually better than aism because aism burns out and this stays on. It's a similar kind of effect. The kism also wouldn't be enough of a fire to to bake a bread. Um there is another system which the star case >> this system is not connected to the general system. >> No, it's a separate wire because the general system could get shut down. This is hardwired to the box and it's locked so they cannot turn on and off and that's how we know it's on all the time. Um the star key also allows a method known as a light bulb method. And some light bulbs there's actually thing called heating lamps where you can use lamps to heat things. It's not an efficient way to do things because it's more from an energy conservation perspective. It's more takes more energy. Um they even use heating lamps like to heat up fries. What is you know certain things are doing that but po because the whole the main that the heat is and because a light bulb is there to give off light. So using a lamp that's giving off heat as a as a clay to be in most of accept it. we don't accept it. The historically does allow it. The pilomish, they don't use it too much because it's not an efficient way to do it from a conservation a cost conservation perspective. Um, so when we do set up a a heating element in in an oven, we'll make sure it's a separate line and we'll make sure it's going to give up at least 180°. Also make sure there'll be an indicator light showing it's working and the the elements turned on by the and it has to be in the baking chamber that the first but even later on as long as it's within the baking chamber before the the past is ready to eat it's enough to be the past to make it past. Okay. Um now I want to go over the just some general about and then we're going to get into the practical stuff. So by the the is again it's but the details are different said that any any that's not it wouldn't be edible in its raw state and also it's a type of food that would be just mean a fancy meal a fancy event such a food has to be cooked with theatas of aid otherwise it becomes and it's to eat and it according to the way we pass like the st. So the main reason is the secondary reason is this gets into another is if if we say that the main reason is just because of so then even is not could light the fire because a lot of lot of marriage it's not a problem but if the is because there is such so according to the secondary tom that's why you would be to only have to light the for those that are to allow a non to light the fire. By the way, the raut does allow the ner. It only works if you don't have any on premises because if you have go on premises and let's say a little restaurant, let's say it's a falafel stand, it's all part whatever. If they're going around, so how do you know the y that the fire and the didn't light the fire? The y is not from does not have. So if it's run only by a y was not from okay, so but they have a system to make sure he's lighting the fire. You don't have to be he's calling a guy off the street. But if there's a alasar then you need to have a system to make sure it's actually if there's no presence and in terms of actual policy requires that the person who's lighting the fire for is so about it they'll allow an to light the fire for but they'll have a system to verify that they actually did it like they'll they'll watch on a let's say on a on a FaceTime whatever they'll make sure they actually did it but they will be they will be make about it and they have to rely on and also again if it's so um okay so now again we said it has to be a type of food that needs to be cooked it's not edible raw something that has arranged together he says you would invite your friend over to eat so I always give this mush I said you know you're going to call your friend let's say it's raining outside say you want to come over to my house for dinner so if you if you say I'm having chicken and potatoes or I'm having salmon and and and and a bunch of vegetables say thank you very much what time is dinner 6:00 I'm coming But if you tell them you want to come over to my house to have some corn flakes or rice crispy say no thanks I have it in my own apartment because because the of the food is not good it's not going to be good it's not going to be good to the person I was traveling once overnight with the and I had this whole discussion so I said what about a hotel you go to a hotel and they serve you breakfast they serve you the rice cream he says yeah but they're you're going to for a place to sleep part of the way to sell you the room is they're going to also give you free uh free cereal but the cereal is not enough of a kashima is to bring you to the hotel m itself so it's It's not considered to be now what's called bish. So brings down the classical forms of bish which are cooking baking or frying or roasting those are classical forms just as important we have the same that's they give clear gdorin only in a regular way of cooking. So if you have an irregular way of cooking let's say for example someone fries an egg on a sidewalk in in the Palm Springs at 120° or has a about someone cooking something on a radiator these are not regular ways of cooking and there wouldn't be a problem and and also which is salting or or smoking pickling or drying those are not when I say smoking I want to be very clear it's referring to live smoke where you have a a room where they have actual wood chips and that's what's doing the cooking. Not in an oven chamber. An oven chamber would be actual bishial would have to be bish. So this gets me into another discussion. So um then again locks there's three ways to make locks. You can make locks. Cold smoke hot smoked and hot smoked in an oven. Cold smoke is not because there's no heat. Hot smoke depends how it's made. If it's made hot smoked with with in a room with with wood chips that are burning just uh it's no problem. It's not it's not user. But if you make it in an oven where they use liquid smoke which is a flavor which the fish actually gets cooked in the oven and they infuse it with the smoke flavor while they're baking it or cooking it that needs to be made because that's like said it's baking or it's >> so they're doing it a normal way >> a regular way. So so when we give a ha if I'm going to a company to give a ha unlock I have to pay very close attention how is it actually being made. If it's being made in a regular way, I have to make sure there's a system officially sold or else I can't certify it's a so again depending how it's made. If it's made cold smoke or hot smoke with wood chips, it's not a problem. It's but if it's made in a way of the regular conventional way, it's we have to have a system for >> the conventional way is an oven. >> Yes. Yes. >> What about from reg from fire? It steams the the >> Yeah. So, we're going to get to steam. says and and the way I'm saying all the national and I'll tell you I have a story about from Shiml it's also that if it's if it's smoking if it's sorry it's done through steaming but when we say steaming I'm talking about live steam live steam it's a so we make because we also have this for the there's a I just heard from last year he was saying from the whenever you have two you can be so you have two you have the you have the of you also have the um so that's how we would pass there was a story I heard from Rabbi Ysephman from California told me he remembers that there was they were serving the bakim food in 144 was a canned food that needed to be bish but it was cooked through steam and there was the center so some said they could serve it to Those that want to be not to eat the they can give other choices but he let it be served in 1414 just too timing. >> Yeah. I'm just giving you a mix it up. >> Could you can you explain a little what what does it mean live smoke versus explain that? So in in steaming goofa there's two ways to do steam live steam means that for example you have actual steam is shooting on the product that's that's what actually is doing the cooking that is and if you're the headers there's no problem but there's another way to use steam which is which is called closed steam that's where they'll have a vessel a big a big pot like the size of this bema and the walls will be double jacketed so you have a wall here wall here and in between the walls they'll shoot steam the steam is coming from the boiler and And then the reason they do that is because if the steam is closed within a system, they can recapture the steam after they cook and they save on on energy consumption, right? Cuz it goes back to the boiler, it's already hot. So there the steam is closed. So then if I have a pot like that and inside the pot, let's say I have water or oil that's boiling. So so so there are some that want to t since the actual co the fire is steamed. Therefore that's of steam. But a lot of people don't like that hatter because they're saying no because the actual food is being cooked through the may or through the boiling oil. Yes. So what do I care if it's steam that's that's firing up? It's not it's not live steam. So try to be m to say that close steam would not be considered to be steam. Wouldn't be the head of steam anymore. The only time we'll allow that is if we're making just so by potato chips which is it has to be because of the because if you're going after the so there will allow steam inside a double jacket cuz you have another already enough to be m >> what's live smoke and live steam what's >> okay live smoke it means that it's actual wood chips burning and the and the smoke is what's doing the cooking if I have wood chips that are smoking and and funneling the smoke into an oven, but the oven's cooking the food and the food is now getting the smoke flavor. It still needs to be made visually salt. It's not the light it's not light smoke. It's smoke that's being funneled in. But light smoke means that the smoke itself is doing the cooking. >> Steam versus smoke. Smoke is without water. It's it's steam. >> It's just the the embers, the the heat. Yeah. And the smoke. Yeah. Okay. So now, >> and on the one more question on the locks packages, it's clear what how they're >> It'll say on the locks package. um if it's cold smoked or hot smoked it won't say how it's made hot smoked but the hea if they're giving a hea they're making sure they're dealing with the bish issue one way or another either it's done with live smoke or there's a it's almost turning on the fire by the way um this is not the subject of the sh but since I'm mentioning it we're talking about locks um almost all national allow the flesh color the pink flesh color of salmon as a simmon kashras the okay is the only fish the okay allows without because the flesh color is that's something we were told by he agreed with that to be on that um but they don't allow the color to be star about that so they would their locks would be done where actually when they're when they're actually doing on the intake the original process of that Okay. So again, so here you have the that it's a famous it's a very very famous the holds that is what makes it which is known as bishop. It's much harder to do. So in in catering events when you have a mashia who's let's say watching the grill the mash has to put down every steak on the grill he gets paid more money if it's because the imamish has to it's much more isas he can't just light the fire and sit on the side he has to put everything down so it's harder to do um it's a very interesting is between because according to the who is what makes the So today in modern machinery let's say for example they have these fryilators that could be the size of this whole room like half the room very long fryers now what happens is the fryator has a belt that's moving the product through let's say I'm frying eggplant has to be made installed on the oven right so the act no one's actually putting the eggplant into the fryer there's another belt that's before the feed belt into the oven that feeds from here to the oven right so there's two belts so I have one belt that's going like this is the feed belt and here's the actual belt going to the oven. So according to him, if a yid lights the feed belt, he just lights turns it on. He doesn't even have to put down the eggplant on the feed belt because the feed belt is moving the putting it into the oven. See that that qualifies for some don't like that so much. They all have to put it down, >> you know. So there's a little bit of in in contemporary and how to learn this. But anyway, um um so going to it's a lot easier. You turn on the fire and um and uh or stirring the food, you know, as long as the food is not yet fully cooked. >> They have a very hard time. You're supposed to make it before even better. Yes, >> they have a very hard time any >> have a very hard time. That's true. >> It is true. about >> some mean try the best they can. There aren't that many products certified by so when they have restaurants when the certified restaurants will make it they'll have a like a former chef or something but if it's if it's packaged product it's not so it's very hard for uh to be able to really keep this it's not simple because the rest of are not doing it um of so there's a giml is that it does then he says yes it doesn't. So basically under most circumstances we would ask him that it does ask unless you have other you have other but generally speaking we would be about that um and I said before about there's there's a that could be m but we're policy wise only have to light the fire there's a famous go after the min so if you're going after the min then even potato chip would have to be made because it's coming from a potato which is not edible raw and would be something if you're going after the final of the potato chip is not and would not be served at a king's table again getting to that whole obviously if we live in a place where we can get saw potato chips that's definitely the proper thing to do a person living in a place where they can't get it they have to be and as I said before only to certify potato chips but because potato chips itself will allow closed steam in that case to qualify to part of the bishrol on the potato chip. And again, Pringles, Pringles are made in a whole different They're made from uh dehydrated potatoes. They cook the potato, they dehydrate, then make it not then they rehydrate. Behold, if the food becomes nonl longer edible and then it becomes reedible if it's now reedible in a non. It's not a problem even though they cooked it. But it was only intermediate stage. It doesn't become the product is actually shahak because it's rehydrated. I heard from uh the of Rabbi Handel that he allowed his to eat Pringles that are not but did not allow them to have potato chips and not so the shak by Pringles as well. Okay. Uma those other types of chips which are more modern they didn't have like 20 30 years ago but they have these pop chips. They have they have popcorn. They also have like these veggie straws. Those are made from pellets. Those are also shahak and thosel the way in which they're made are a non-conventional baking process. They're popped and are popping. So just like or something made on a on a microw on a radiator, it's not. So this is also not something that's that is also also writes a machinery that you don't have in your home. It's another that that's only like machinery just for a factory. It's also not a problem. This is machinery you don't have in your home. Most people don't have poppers in their home. It's not like a it's a popping machine just for pellets. You bring in these huge pellets. So it's a therefore it does not have to be again someone wants to be they can be but I tell them it's a little bit more of a because you have a lot of over here corn chips corn is more like because corn in America is the cheapest feed stock. So to say that corn needs to be corn itself needs to be made not all would say that. Some might say some might be mm but corn is not a such a food in America it is and in Mexico it's also so it depends which country but here in America corn chips are not so again someone wants to be mmed to make corn chips but it's also more in the gather of more of a uh corn tacos like in a place like Mexico probably have to be made because they are there something that's it's it's just culturally it's considered to be a normal thing it's Indian world Most countries you go over every country if it's country >> goes by the country that goes over here will be fine. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. >> What about rice crispies? >> So rice crisp. So all the breakfast I'll talk about breakfast. All breakfast cereals are made in machinery that's very much designed for for breakfast cereals. It's either puffed, it's extruded or it's uh go made into flakes. And these are not normal baking processes and therefore they don't have to be made and uh the end use product is not a food. It's not something you know and all those. So they don't have to be made someone wants to get breakfast. So again very nice but I don't think it's required. >> How about saying big amounts? >> It's not a problem. >> Big amounts they have to talk just for that. >> Yeah. No, it's not a problem. It's not. It's a So, it's muted to eat. Um, vineg. So, then it's also it's also made in a funny way. You have what to rely not to require. There's only one cereal that I'm aware of that's made like a bar and then cut up later. That's the post grape nut cereal. It's made more like a bigger piece then chopped up later. So, there's room to be mal. >> There's a children from the on this also the back. I think he wrote about cornflakes those back in the day. Um okay um a couple of the points and then I'm going to get into some practical points. So when we do catering events which I used to do years ago I don't I'm not involved in it so actively now but just the even though the food is already cooked by the year then we turned on the fire as a policy I will not allow to light all those lighting gels because I don't want to be giving them the that they could light fires in a Jewish event. So even though the food's already cooked, they are allowed to heat it up. I don't let him to touch any fire. And the same is in my own house. I don't let the goya plug in the hot water because I don't want to give her the she cannot touch any fires. That's you have to make a policy because they're not burning to be able to be and this that this yes and this not. >> When you say you don't allow you mean the cash okay or >> I'm saying what I do. It's my own it's my own. I mean it's but I'm saying if you ask me my opinion it's not a good thing to do because once you give them that don't say oh the rabbi let me let me light the fire for the for the chicken I was warming up so I'm a lot of a lot of frying eggs myself it mean they're going to come to make a toss um some examples of foods that are in America like for example carrots are eaten raw I was speaking I had a colleague of mine who was from Europe he told me when he was a kid nobody ate carrots raw so there are differences sometimes culturally is just in terms of what happens in different countries. So you have to be able to know that to be able to to plug in what the would be in that particular country. In general the chuba writes that snacks and candies therefore there wouldn't be a problem of bish the same would be with a drink. Um and generally speaking soup is different because a soup is something you eat sitting down by a meal. So it has more of a kasuda type of thing. is more harsh in that sense. Okay. Now I'm going to go through some policies. I'm going to go through some examples of practical things policy wise in all our restaurant the policy that all our restaurants all the all the baked goods have to be made pos. And also anytime we have let's say breadcrumbs in a kisole product or let's say in a fish product we're doing let's say breaded fish we'll make sure that the topping would also be pos because it shouldn't be confusing for consumers right so you have a a product it's me fish and you know and it's not we also have make sure the the topping would be um okay now um as I said before a glow plug is a is a is an acceptable way to do that. Um would be every time he goes by the way I have another minute and I have my light all the b all the ovens of all the bakeries we certify that I take care of I don't advertise as because I cannot be sure it's but this way I have a and I can say that the ate this food had so this is something that I encourage other to do as well um and generally speaking a Uh so remote starters as I said before could be used. It's not a way but it's it is acceptable. Um but a timer do do use a timer. We asked that years ago. I don't think I'm pretty sure he told us it's not it's not acceptable. The problem with the timer is that it's the the yid effect is removed from the actual uh y. So I set up a timer. It's going to go on in 10 hours. it it doesn't you you're missing that feeling of uh it's a heard it's a yadol that aid is doing this so so we don't like it for that reason. Um now we're going to get into some other things about this. This is a very very common scenario. Breadcrumbs are used as a filler in many products. Breadcrumbs are not expensive. So for example if you buy tuna salad tuna tuna is expensive. So you can have up to 7% breadcrumbs in there as a filler. So the breadcrumbs if they were not there would be they're not they're not the time it's it's totally you won't see it but it's not because you don't really want to do that. So when we're certifying something uh like that, we try our hardest that should be poss. So what I'm just saying that you can ask the question if you see the product. We try our hardest at breadcrumbs but here in this case it would be buckle anyways if it's done through sometimes it might happen that way panko breadcrumbs are a very interesting discussion panko is a certain style of breadcrumbs the word panko can refer to a style could actually refer to a process if it's just panko style and it's regular breadcrumbs they have to be basis if it's panko breadrumbs real breadcrumbs itself so breadcrumbs that are made in the panko methodology those are baked through electrocution They're not baked in a regular way and some hold again it's not it's an unusual process. is not the regular way of baking and therefore would not have to be past still someone but if it's real if it's real panko one has who to rely upon but even though even so someone could be if they choose to will be products that have oat flour in them you're getting into a uh to the writes that if it's less than it would be okay it's not it's it's ble um some there are other shittas that hold that if it's going in for a functionality even even let's say a certain percentage like say 10 or 12% it could still have to be pass so there are different ra differently on this particular shila I can tell you what I guide what I've guided people if the the if the old flour is um is in a gluten-free product usually it's going to be less than it's going to be a smaller amount of ingredient wise so I tell people if they need to take this gluten-free product for health reasons they could be but if you have other choices. So then uh there's there's room to be m because there are other that hold that you still should hold it should be pos because in because the flower the the the was going in for a functionality in the product and therefore it's not quite the same as a d it just falls in and it would be buckled. Okay. A granola bar from what I've seen in terms of the processes again not all processes are alike. I I looked into the Nature Valley granola bar process a long time ago. This was many years ago. I I hope it's still the same. I'm not positive. But what I was told at the time was that and I've seen this process myself where they to make a granola is basically you have about 33% dry ingredients, 66 or 6 whatever of liquid ingredients. They take the liquid ingredients, they cook them up and then they mix them into the dry ingredients. You form a paste that really it's an ear of a clearish. really makes the food edible at that point and then they flatten and they just bake it to crisp it. So when the food is really getting through so you're getting you're avoiding the issue of of past because it becomes it's not really will be served at the king's table. So that's why it should be mut if it's baked throughout the whole way then you're getting into another another discussion if it has oat flour in it not just oats if it has whole oats that are discernible so that you're getting bite is it considered to be flour or not. So if the oats are fused into the dough told me if the oats are not discernible then even if they're whole they have a thinner flour but if they are discernible this is already a a bit of a big discussion but la that's you're going to get into that into that issue ice cream cones are made from a regular ice cream cones are made from abil raa and not from abil >> granola ma what are that shade I'm doing >> they hold it doesn't have to be pasta so um this granola bars or granola? >> Both. Both. Um, red lip granola is usually just baked straight up. Um, >> the Yeah, they'll make it. Yeah. So, the ice cream cones, the soft ones would be uh according to the sh that does not have to be pass according to the my understanding is it would um but but the hard ice cream cones like the the sugar cones are thicker. Those are made from those will need to be according to breakfast cereals I mentioned earlier are made in an irregular manner and therefore um they don't have to be someone wants to be but >> cereal is like how is it made? What do you what >> cereals the way it's made is it's extruded. It goes through a machine that basically takes a liquid product. It runs it through a very small hole. It's extr it's called extrusion. It's got very hot in there and it comes out as like a string and then it just basically curls it into a circle. So it becomes it's the process is not a regular way of baking. It's not a traditional baking process. Um okay. Um benea. Okay. We're going to get into a few other foods that are more in the sha of official sushi. Okay. Sushi is something that people eat a lot. But even so, we don't say that the fish is because it does go through a form of tipple and I don't think most people are eating the raw fish anyways. I certainly wouldn't try it even if you paid me a lot of money. Um, so that that that still would have to be made is a very interesting discussion. Beets the hold that beets don't have to be made because it's it's like in or you can have beet shavings in a salad. Um, okay. I hear the but uh is um I don't know it has other ingredients usually mixed in. So uh there's definitely room to be on beats that say it has to be. >> Yeah, exactly. That's right. Yes, for sure. If you're using the beets just for color and it's going in as a mixture and you have maybe that could be part of the calculation. be chain noodles are deep fried and therefore not not a a past issue and again they're used as a topping or a snack and therefore it wouldn't be um I asked the shila we're going to get gluten-free breads that don't have any old flour so they have to be made I asked the shilah to be like 10 years ago or 15 years ago there was a a conference of and he I remember He paused for like 20 seconds and he said no. Um the po and I also heard this recently. I was at a conference in in Montreal and the one that abundant from the MK said that they ask him that gluten-free products do not have to be made bishrol or because it's only meant really for people that have special dietary needs. It's not something that's so although gluten-free products are becoming more and more mainstream. So when I am able to I try to make it a I'm not requiring it policy wise but when I'm able to because there is a little bit ofad the tina that it should be because it's becoming more popular. >> Is it always not in the product? >> No I'm talking about the whole thing is gluten-free a gluten-free bread >> but like oat but oat it has some oats talking about >> so it's a shak product but it's but it to say it's not they'll serve it at fancy events. So it's a little bit of augi. >> Why? So why should be >> because so the in in Montreal are saying that it's meant for it's not something that's for the >> it's a hard spot to say today. >> What? >> It's harder to say. >> It's hard to say because it's becoming much more a lot more people are switching to this. So I'm tiny. I think at some point we're going to have to actually uh revisit that matter. >> At this point all the areas. >> Yes. Yes. I have one factory that makes uh gluten-free breads and I put in a maker. So, it should be a fias but we don't require it. So, I'm able to trying but I I think at some point it's going to become more of a standardized thing. >> It's all based on a that's for and uh it's not Yeah. It's not something most people eat apparently. Yeah. Okay, been some other foods just to share with you. Um, falafel balls just m told us they don't have to be made. They're more of a fast food, not so hash. Um, >> is that all chickpeas in general or just >> No. No. So chickpeas themselves, you get into another discussion. A cooked chickpea is more hash if it's made as a humumus as a dip. So there it's a dip. So it's really vital to the food. is being dipped into. But if it's a food for itself, there's a about that also. Require swall on chickpeas. Some of them are cooked through steam. Some not chickpeas from >> but the national do not require it for even for for regular whole chickpeas. >> The chickpeas can >> those are not made. >> No. It's not. The reason why there will be um >> the White House is serving it. >> What? >> Sardines discussion about um I don't know. I I don't know. I think some some people do ta that sardines are kashv like sprats and sardines of the same size same family of fish I don't think they're that kash but uh those that are t that it is kashv I mean they have they're very healthy type of fish so maybe people would want them you know so uh that's how that's how that's that's looked at >> depend how it's prepared also >> yeah a lot of these foods would be would be made uh possibly with steam But again, it would be steam with uh very often where it's uh could be in a in a closed system, not a live steam situation. Um just I'll share a couple of stories with you. There's a heard this story from my colleague. told me there was a ra giving ashra on a bakery and he wanted to make the oven wanted to make a pisrol but the apparently they were not friendly to the yid they didn't let the rabbi put in a kis so the r was a aid a kugid he said he went in smoking a cigar and when he got to the oven he threw the cigar in like as if he's finished smoking but that was his kiss so he had a way of making it pass his throat um what about vitamins Okay. So now that that's sugit um >> you don't have to answer. >> No, I don't mind answering. I just want to answer you. >> It's very complicated >> in a proper way. So in order to answer the question I have to give a little bit of a so a vitamin it depends if a vitamin is being taken for in place of a medicine in order to treat a particular uh medical issue it has to do a medicine now that there are certified vitamins available on the market. So if the ones that have a will satisfy whatever is necessary as good as good as best of course that's a better option. If you can't find that, then finding a vitamin that's vegan certified that avoids any dicis and a lot of other issues. You have some dabonas. So, it's definitely a better choice. But if it's a swallowable pill, it's a lot to be taken with. But again, if you have other choices that could be vegan or certified one, that's something that I would encourage someone to do to see first if possible. But if it's taken as a swallow pill, it's to take >> coffee. >> Sorry, >> coffee. coffee on the road. Well, >> well, plain black coffee does not require a it's kosher. Flavored coffee needs a flavor coffee could be not kosher. It could be dairy certified if you're getting a coffee on the road. So, then you're getting into the whole discussion of kim and this and that. So, if you're going let's say to a Dunkin Donuts which just has coffee and pastries, they don't actually serve cooked tray. It's a better choice. or to go to let's say a gas station that's all they have is just a a unit for coffee dedicated for black coffee it's a better choice to go into a Starbucks where it's a full-fledged restaurant and they wash the kin together with the tra so then you what you had to your is that they're using soap you have the beima it's not kishmak it's not it's I would tell people uh better off with a cold uh sonic cold drink might be a better choice but Again, it's not hoster. It's just uh you know, it's not for that reason. So, if you can find one that doesn't have that complication of a restaurant, years ago, Starbucks was not a restaurant. Became a restaurant much later. So, now it's more complex. >> Instant coffee is >> it's okay with it's not flavor. >> What is par baked like what's considered? How much? >> Parbaked. Generally speaking, it's a good question. I asked this question to a ma an expert baker. Even something that could be something that could even be baked 90%. and still be classified as parbaked. A parbaked bread, for example, let's say a baguette, it'll be much wider in complexion. The dough will be a little chewable. It's still edible. It's not, but it's still you still can make that past. Some of the are if it's very white in complexion and the dough is still chewy. That's a sim. It's not fully baked. Generally speaking, I'm giving you a general guideline. It's not an exact science, >> but a roll that needs like at least 6 minutes or more to finish off the baking is not not fully baked yet. And a baguette like 8 minutes or a full bread would be a little more. But something that's uh just needs a couple minutes if it's a bread, you know, would not be enough to make a past. A flat product could even be less cuz it's going to bake much faster. >> Frozen French fries. Frozen French fries are the way that the national shrimp certify them is they're they're relying on the fact that the yeit's going to make it so by turning on the fire at home. Some of these French fries are cooked quite a bit to be cooked 70 80%. The shoestring fries are even cooked more from what I understand, but they're still need a little bit more cooking and that's the reason why they um they they they given extra make at home. I'll tell you an interesting story before. >> I'm sorry. >> Even though it's not it's better to to make a before, but then you could do it even later. So I I'll tell you an interesting story. There was a I was by a who was certifying a cafe cafeteria in a place where there's no kosher food and he had he had actually someone who's very sensitive to kash. It was a ye was going through gear but he wasn't yet a ye was checking on it. It was a very good setup. It was all all dairy you know no this setup was very good. He asked me for an evaluation. He was making French fries. He says I turn on the fryer in the morning. I said okay you know go out whatever. So I said buy the French fries only have French fries that have aashk on premises like this. They're ready made. Therefore even if the this person who's going through gear by mistake turns on the fire later it's not already made before. So you have a protective measure in place. We found an for him. >> I also had was there you know he gave me a little kid. >> The coated fries. >> The coated fries. says are really unhealthy. It's like poison upon poison. But it's just we spoke about is unhealthy. >> What? >> Half of what we spoke about is already unhealthy. >> That could also be true. >> Yeah. There's a lot of food. What is a more cal than like baker? >> Yes. Because there's no ka between the baker and the end user. >> Who can it's in a tour? It's a is it? It's a it's a in the tour. I forgot. Is it rah? in the in a in a catering setting, you don't have that because the the chef is could see the person right there. But in a in a factory setting, a package product, you have that extra to >> this is a basel. But that's uh that's only if they >> all these methods they're not going away. So the fact that it's used all the time maybe now makes it home. >> Hey, you know what I mean? We have to work with what we have. They didn't ask us to make new practically speaking. How does it work in these big factories? The oven lasts for days. >> Yes. So they have Yes. The ovens stay on for a very long time. In fact, sometimes we make and that system also I I tested ovens. Some ovens are so well insulated they'll stay warm for over two days. Even if you shut it off. So if you have a mashkit, let's say visiting every two days and he's turning on the fire, you don't have to put in an element because it's going to stay warm anyways. Some tunnel ovens can last even longer. Tunnel ovens could be as long as this whole room. Um and they're they're heavily insulated. The head space between the belt and the top is only like let's say 6 in. So, if you think about an insulated room that's, you know, heavily insulated and it's it's, let's say, 500°, when you turn it off and you close the doors, it's going to stay hot for for days. I don't know how many days, but many days. Um, tunnel ovens can be very large. I have a factory that has a tunnel oven that's like 90 ft long. >> What about a company that owns if if something belongs to you, then they have to be more pass, right? >> Yeah. >> So, if you owns a company, >> Yeah. It's more it's more it's more complex to say to be masp like so it won't be a headshot they'll look into who owns the >> there is I think there's a truth from about it I'm not sure but um you're right it is it's more of a complex issue it's to deal with but I'm not sure I think there's a truth from about started >> sorry >> he said he started to get >> a me regarding Say that. >> I said it together. >> Donuts and bagels. >> What? >> Donuts and bagels. A different process that it's fried and baked. >> So, the bagel is is fried first for a real bagel. Proper bagel. A New York bagel is fried in in water. It's it's sealed. It's boiled in water for about uh one or two minutes and then it's baked. That's what creates a crispy outside and a soft inside. It creates a very gushmaka mouth feel. So, that is still in the gather of pass. This is written in in the past about this. It would still be considered to be pass. >> It's it's being it's it's pass not. >> Yes. But donut if it's deep fried the whole time that's already uh it's more of a discussion. I think it's about that donuts. >> How do you do do deal with pilot flames? >> How do we what >> if aid lights a pilot flame? Is that like >> a pilot light is good as long as it stays on? Yeah. >> Yeah. highlight is good. I had a story once. I mentioned stories. There was a blackout in um I think maybe 20 years ago in New York City for like quite a long time. So I was actually not in town when it happened. I was in a different different state. I called up Arav. I said what's going to be with all our elements we put on the you know globe plug and said it's not it's not possible for Mashk to get to every place in time when the grid goes back on. So he told me it's a it's a himo you don't have to worry. Um but I I looked about a case there something got burned someone turned on some big fire cook things. It was not a regular way. So turning on the grid is not a regular way of baking either. So had that in mind also. So we lit the the pilots when we could. We lit the glow plugs. What I'm saying that that was a uh a sh that came to me. >> Everything automatically went back on because the grid. >> Yeah, but it wasn't it wasn't the yadi anymore cuz it it got cold. >> But it couldn't possibly get there in time. That's what I said. But uh >> breaded fish is more common than like >> by what? >> Breaded fish is more common than breadcrumbs and tuna because it's liquor. >> Yes, it is more common. Although some some have another because breaded fish the breadcrumbs are now being fried and yet there is So, it is getting a little bit more of a ship, but this is already, you know, it's a stickle. It's it's a it's a >> What's the story with kettle chips? >> Kettle chips are cooked in a kettle. Um, a lot of chips could be could be made in a big fry later. It would depend on how the kettle is actually heated. Is it heated through live fire or through steam jacketed? If it's steam jacketed, then you have that of steam. Um, as I mentioned earlier, Is there such a by potatoes to say like primos? But because it's cooked, it's cooked at a whole potato that makes it worse. >> It would make it worse if you're saying that once it's made into mashed potatoes, it's it's but if but according to because it's only an intermediate step, it's not a problem. Now those are I'm just saying that this is the >> some people say it's worse than >> it could it would be worse than because if you say that doesn't help them it's because uh mashed potatoes are it's not like you're going to say it's not >> so it's worse in that sense then you also have said that we have to be very because of the interarriage that we have today from onelan we have to be more careful these to help uh curb the uh that issue I'll just share with you one more story I have another minute I can speak so I got a I got a question from a relative of mine who shall remain nameless he asked me if cornships have to be made with Isra so you also have to be smart I answer somebody I told him you have to follow what your family does and tell them that his mut I mean he'll go home right away. He plummed this. Then I had another question. One was from a she she and her husband were m to only have bish potato chips in the home and her oldest child didn't want to be have this. She wanted to have regular potato chips. She said what should you do? I said you're not really asking me questions more of a question. I said tell your daughter that mommy and in our house this is what we do. It's our standard. So when you're in our house please uh be sensitive and in front of the other children be sensitive. You're a boss mitzvah now. You could make your own decisions. You could do this. And uh you're you're bas