Chasidim Rishonim & The World of Halacha | Rabbi Shai Finkelstein December 30th 2025

talking about theim that are mentioned in the time of the Mishna and the time of the Gar. And what I would like to do is uh to talk a little bit about the tension between theim and what we call theim. Now they are all they are all okay. Some of them are even friends. But you will see that uh there is a tremendous tension when it comes to some kind of confrontation between andid and again I'm not talking about the of the talking about the okay so let's try first that's what we are going to do first we need to define what is okay very good so let's start says the following Right? So we all know that that's the Mishna that is very famous that you don't start you don't just go straight to but you know sometimes people say like on the so no you just go you concentrate you think about it means what >> seriousness because that's exactly the opposite from that is being mentioned many times which is lightaded like you know being silly Not being serious means you understand what you are about to do. Okay. So that's for everyone. But then the itself records a different requirement or a different action by someone else. So you can't just go without what being serious. And then the Mishna tells us a some kind of an anecdote that I don't know what is but meaning those pious or righteous oridim the first ones they would basically come to Davin I guess an hour before I don't know if that's 60 minutes or that's like some kind of a time before and they will I don't know what they will What is they would just sit I guess in for an hour before and then they will now by the way the sequence in this sentence is a bit strange. it should say and then but whatever I'm not going to go into it um just because I don't think I can really resolve it I tried but whatever it is what it is but basically it says that what will really take time before the rea now it's interesting so is this story is to try to tell all of us who are that we should do the same or I would call it the Mishna is realism versus idealism realism is and requirement is that we all understand that you can't den you need to do what you need to do it by ro now if you want to have a way to get to ro you can look at the now I understand you don't have an hour just imagine we have three times a day an hour before an hour later I don't know when you go to work I guess don't go to work. I don't know. Maybe maybe they do. But the thing is is nine hours of your day is dvening. So I don't know what you do but um but the thing is is that I'm not sure. I mean I have my suggestions and theory but for now I am not sure exactly what was behind what the Mishna created. Here we have everyone. Then we have and then take a look at the third sentence of the then this is also a very famous say that even if a king come and ask you in the middle of hey how are you you shouldn't answer and even if you have a snake like on your heel and he's about to what to give you a little a little bite right He also should not what should not stop for now is that true not true that is not the issue now for but what I want to know is is that part of what we will callit is that what the did or that's for everyone >> but I don't know but it's just an example of how much you should concentrate on your think they really did is I mean a king came in they didn't give him any cover >> okay so there is something very interesting when we read Mishna that we know you know what we need to do >> to pretend that we don't know really because the mistake and not being able to see semantics it's because you know you think you know it always to look at things from a new perspective because you look at this first let's take a look at the structure The structure is what the structure is what do you do when you come to you need to do it right then second is you know how you get to that's what they did now what do you do I don't know you can do like or you can do something else but one requirement from everyone is you need to do it now the third sentence which basically presents us a new hala is what that when can you um stop or or take a break or what >> or interrupt and the answer is it's to the extent that never you can never stop right now you can never stop because it's or you can never stop because you are not even aware that you have a king or a snake because what you have such a cover ro that you don't even want pay attention to them. Meaning, is that an example of what does it mean or is that a separate? Okay. Now, in addition, why is this the last one? If it's in this Mishna, it should be in a different Mishna. Such as, you know, there is a Mishna that talks about when can you speak in if someone come and talk to you. Okay. Okay. So there you can put also you know what in you shouldn't at all or you should or you can between A and B. Why is it here? So >> I don't know it seems >> oh so that's what we spoke about meaning is that also connected to the or is that connected to everyone and this is something that for now we can't answer for now okay the start talking about the following right that's what the says that would stay an hour before dvening in order to prepare themselves for the says how do we know that that's what you >> supposed to do we think that it's only for interesting but takes the time to try to understand the source of why they did what they did right which is interesting which means the I mean we're talking about after the time of the tanim we're talking now about the tanim ends at the end of the second century now we are at the time of the and the takes the time and the interest to try to understand a behavior of a specific group which means this specific group was a meaningful group because if I don't care about them I would not ask what was their source right so the gamarra says is an amora from the third centur century in one of the most famous ones. So like many times in the when they want to give a bring a proof from a puk unfortunately they quote only the first half and not necessarily the half that you need to know. They think that you know everything by heart. So therefore let's now we all know will praise you which means before you praise what do you need to do your you need to be a praiseworthy are the people who what who sits dwell in your home and then they what they praise you and that's exactly what Rashi says you see rashi after of the and what is no no that's in like in for our meaning and after that they will praise you which means the source for the not necessarily for an hour but they saw the so basically their interpretation was what >> praiseworthy are the people who dwell in your home and then only then they will what they will praise you. Yes. >> Was there always you know and all those others came before or was it Josh right? Uh it depends it depends on the time. Um until what we have the sidur that we have the sidu that we have today is based on what on whose sidu basically most of the sidur are based on that siduon was asked by a Jew uh to please write for him and he gave money to Rafadia wrote it and that was copied and copied and copied. Obviously some mistakes here some mistakes there but basically the structure is from there. So what was before not sure when Zimra was exactly established as part of the of that and everything we don't know exactly the time I I don't know exactly the time. Yes. What did they say that contribute to the >> Iceland? The structure structure of Yeah. Okay. So, >> if I'm not mistaken, was 9th century if I'm not mistaken. So, okay. Now we are talking about an hour after that's a lot of time in SH. >> Now he talks about not before but rather >> after. And now by the way he talks about whom? >> Everyone pel. Anyone who dven needs to what? That after ding should stay another hour for what? Righteous people will thank you. What is they will sit at? What is they will sit in your presence which means after you d what do you need to do to sit? Now it's not an hour not 60 minutes but you need to not to rush from shu. Okay that's the point. Okay. So by the way just in terms of I will call it a social behavior or cahila policy it seems to be don't forget we are talking about now the 3rd century beta mikdashen was destroyed in 70 which means was at the towards the end of the first century there's no bet mikdash the tanim and also the are trying to quote unquote replace this central house or theme in Judaism which was beta mikdash And you encourage people to go to where to shu. We know by the way Rabi Yohanan who was somewhat of a colleague to Rabu Levi same almost the same year passed away in 278 and Levy operated around that time in says so many different things about encouraging people to go to shul and promise so many wonderful things for attending shul and threatening you if you don't go to shul now from the fact that the namor is so quote unquote obsessed with going to shul and encouraging people to go to shul what can we learn from it that many people did not okay and because it was it was a new thing and also you go to shul and what you don't have misbehanote you don't have kohanim like why should I go to shul the minion what does it mean minion okay so especially if you take a Jew who before that you know never went to shul he went let's say he was a very pious religious Jew he went three times to yushim. What did he do in yushim? >> He brought kurban. He made a confession on the kurban. He saw what the kuranim does and he went home. Okay. So he said schma he said thank you god and he moved on. And now you're telling me I need to come to Shul and I need to you know especially me a farmer you I go to the field at uh I don't know sunrise today is 6:36 so that's is easy but go in the in the summer when it's 510 and I lot I'm already at the field at 4:15 and you tell me okay pause stop you need to do sunrise this that and the other I'm busy so you encourage people to go to shoot so it's interesting even when you encourage people to go to shul. So how do they come to shul like what do we do? We rush into shul and we rush out. So is basically trying to tell you what >> before you come concentrate and before you leave don't leave like it's a it's a burden that you are running out of running out of shoe. >> Okay. >> Make kdish. >> Do what? >> Kish. >> Make a kdish. Yeah. But that's only for Shabbat. >> Yes. >> Really not talking about women. You're talking about men. >> Yeah. Yeah. Women I'm sorry but I will say women will not go especially not at that time when women started going to shul. This is a fascinating story fascinating discussion uh debate uh and what kind of shu by the way u we have women's section but we have evidence uh much archaeological evidence that women had their own shoe. You have it in Europe when you go in the middle a not when you go in the middle ages but when you go to Europe's European cities that has uh remnants whatever uh from middle ages middle ages ah yeen time so then you would see sometimes what is calledetim who was the kazan or the kazanit who led the dvening it's fascinating fascinating by the way I I know if you remember but few years ago uh who was it professor Bumgarten maybe I think professor Bumgarden spoke about it uh here or it was not there maybe it was a different lady that spoke about which is a fascinating thing uh what happened to that why it didn't last whatever okay not for now we are bringing a what a tic sauce for Now it's which means everyone needs to come to an hour or whatever sometime before heavens and to stay an hour after heavens. How do we know that you need to come before at now wonderful. It seems to be now that we moved from the periphery to to inside now it's not only it seems to be that it's pal everyone everyone needs to do it and here it's not levy but they bring a brighter what is a brida it's the same tan source like a Mishna so from the time of the Mishna or somewhere in the time of the Mishna everyone was like so what is and why in our there is and then there is what? [clears throat] So the continues again we have a a bright in one hour but before they would come to and then they d for an hour. So now the is asking a question. Practically speaking, if you spend 9 hours ding, when do you have time to learn Torah and when do you have time to walk or eat? >> No, that's not they don't eat. that because they are righteous pious people. So whatever they learn they keep in mind they don't forget and whatever they walk they have a in it so they don't need to walk a lot. So let's just imagine so they do 9 hours let's say they sleep 6 hours which means they have nine more hours to do what? So let's say five hours to to learn, four hours to walk and that will be enough for them. >> Sleep. >> No, six hours to sleep. 9 hours they d >> let's say four hours they learn, 5 hours they walk and no bathroom breaks, no shower breaks, no coffee breaks, no nothing break and then six hours of sleep. Okay, nice. Interesting. Okay. So >> I understand the hour before what's the hour after >> to show that you are not in a rush to contemp contemp contemplate and to you know to let it sink and to understand what you do. >> Internalize >> to what? Internalize. Yes. Yes. Let let it sink. Okay. >> Also >> might be might be meditation might be whatever it is stay. Don't go anywhere. Okay. By the way, please do not practice it now in shul because the gabayim will kick you out for you. Okay? No gaba wants to stay another hour after every ding >> the rabbi. No, the rabbi needs to learn four hours. [laughter] So if we are serious, we have an interesting thing here. It's interesting that the gamar asks okay so it's very nice to have nine hours of uh of dvening and but practically how do you survive like that so the gar gives some kind of an answer so if I try to sum it up what do we have here we have here something interesting we have some kind of a transformation between that it seems to be only one group and when it comes to the time of the it seems to be that what that we basically ask everyone to do what they did and We find sources quote unquote. It's not from the Torah, but we find we find um light proofs from the Tanak to try to what to not to justify what they did. Exactly the opposite. It's to require everyone else to do what they did. Okay. The Rambam. So we are moved to uh we move to the 12th century and the Rambam says the following. You see Rambam last source on the page. So when we talk about concentration or intent. So how do how do you define it? So the Rambam says you need to empty your your brain from all thoughts and you need to see yourself like you are standing in front of the divine presence. How much time it will take us? I think weeks. So he says therefore you see what does it mean before ding? So you can concentrate your heart and after that you will det. Don't dive in like you are um shleing a a burden on you and you just want to throw it as quick as you can. And therefore you also need to do what? That after doning you also need to sit for a second. How do Yeah. And then you can go home. So what's the difference between and regular people? >> Shorter time. Now how much time depends on you. But if you want to be aid, you're talking about what? >> Now again, is that 60 minutes? I don't know. But it's and if you're not aid, you are still required to what? To come before and after and to stay. >> Okay. So according to that, according to the Rambam, the difference between and nonassidim is the amount of time. That's what it is. Now it's interesting because based on the itself it seems to be that what that there is no such distinction anymore and regular people are should do the same. Okay in the which is same so it's just not included in the it says Okay, now I'm pausing here um and skipping to the last line of the Mishna. Remember when we spoke about the idea that even if a king comes you don't answer and even if a >> and we ask is that really a behavior of aid or it's a behavior that is required from everyone and according to the to you know what what do you think about the tofta what is the story from the tofta >> that what >> actually happened >> it actually happened okay what else >> special person not everyone >> oh Y it seems to be that it's only Rabi Khan Mendoza and we know a lot of things about Rabi Khan Mendoza he was a very righteous person a was even a miracle miracle man to some extent and he basically what that when he davened and the arod I don't know if that's a snake or or scorpio or whatever it is uh beat him and he did not >> stop so that's a story about a specific person right and Then Benosa's students went to see what happened to this to this like let's say call it snake and they saw that that snake died and they said if you are a regular person and this beat you you're in in tourist but this was not smart doing that to whom to because killed him. Okay. Now, it's interesting. So, it seems to be according at least according to the toa that the story dava about it seems to suggest that what we said in the last sentence of the Mishna, it only applies to whom? To >> toidim to to righteous people. Now why I guess was in such a high of concentration in he probably didn't even what feel the he didn't know that he's there and really what's happened nothing happened and the snake died okay >> okay it might be that if you are ding with such kavana you are protected it might be oh because such a miracle man. But take a look at what the Yeah, >> the the snake died. Not the not >> the mate is talking about him. >> No, no, no, no. The snake died. >> It's not that clear. >> No, no, no. It's clear. I'll tell you why. Because after that story continued to do to be to be alive. So uh so now take a look at the said there was a place that there was this snake or animal whatever and it would damage the the peopleh. So they came to Abihanosa. Now it's interesting. Why did they go to Abihan Bendsa and not to uh Terminex? >> Do you remember Terminex? Oh, you didn't have it. Terminex. Terminex for Memphis. I remember was for Memphis. If you have problems with animals or insects or whatever it is you >> the what? >> Yeah. The the company we use in Memphis was termin. So that's why I called them always Terminics. Okay. So you call them you don't call. If you have a if you have a I don't know a question of cats or whatever in your or pigeons, would you come to me? >> No. But >> uh I hope not. Okay. I can't fix it for you. So why do you go to >> because he has an he has an experience with them. And why? Because he's a miracle man. So show me his like little cave or little hole. So he put his heel on the top of the hole. So the came out and beat him. And this >> died. So he took him on his shoulders and he brought it to the beta midrash. He says to them, "See my children, it's not the it's your sin." Which means you don't need to be afraid. If you are sinless, if you are sinful, then you have a problem. Okay? if you meet on the way but if you meet now why did I bring that story it's interesting because I want to compare this story to the toa we have two stories about khan bendsa and arod and this whatever let's call it a snake okay >> but what is the difference between the two stories >> oh it's huge difference in the topha He kills the aod while davening while dvening and he's on his madga whatever it is and he does not even see it right and he kills it like by by accident in the it's not about dvening it's about what >> he's like actively trying to hunt it and also the educational message is nothing about dvening it's about what avoiding sins meaning be a righteous pious person not through dvening but through your life. So now we need to open up a discussion which I will have no idea what way to go but the discussion must be open and the discussion is we have a tofta which is a tanic source. We have tanura banan which is a brighta which is also a tanic source. In one tan sauce the description of Benosa it's about davening the description in the bi that brings death brighter and not the tota the focus is what on behavior which is to be sinless rather than a sinful if that's true what are the options that we have option number one two different stories there was story a with Benosa davening and killing a snake. Second story not dvening but want to show and teach the community that what that everyone who is sinless does not need to be afraid of snakes. Okay. So we have two snakes one say you're second option. Second option is what is that there are two agendas here that is more connected to the Mishna and the Mishna our Mishna talked about what governing and the last sentence in the Mishna they talked about what that even when the king comes and ask about you know what you're doing and even if a snake comes towards you you cannot stop that was an illustration of really what will happen if you don't stop you will be like but that's only for it's only for these special people meaning for me if I see a snake while I'm dinga what do I need to do start run right I need to run okay but is special the when they be the brighter they realize they don't want that animal Because not everyone is what can dive in like that and no one is is so special that however everyone can agree that if you are sinless you don't need to be afraid of wild animals. Okay. >> How would you know that you're so every day you need to what to repent and to walk towards it and everything. But this is something that I can expect from everyone. Yeah. Right. always to be work in progress but to Davin in such a level I can't which means the deviates from the idea of the tota and says you know what enough we're talking about whom this you it's unattainable but rather and in dvening if you see a snake run no moreidim but if you want to be sinless that you can that's in your hands okay so we have options of how to see the tota versus thear Again it also might be another third option that the did not know that toa okay that the shas the one who organized the shas knew this brighta and did not know the tota it's also might be >> no toa brightaishna all the same area however some people say that the topha came little bit after the mishna okay little bit after the mishna okay and That will explain why, for example, someone would not know. Pelle, >> I think somebody should use this on young men who don't go into the army. They're reproductive because they're sinless. Nothing will happen. They don't have to be afraid to go into >> next. Okay. So now we are going to a second uh case of so we had dvening sinless snake. Now let's see another time that are being mentioned. The babakama says the following. So the deen is if I took thorns and pieces of glass and you and I have a a a wall between our ys and I put it where in that wall and you are the owner of the wall and you came and what and you broke it. Okay, you basically broke it to pieces. You want to buy to build a new wall. Okay. And then I was walking and I got injured because of the glass or whatever it is. You are >> Yeah. You You need to pay for the damages. >> The glass. >> No, no, no. >> The ball of the bow of the wall. >> No, I >> Okay. I hid pieces of glass and uh whatever uh thorns in your wall without even telling you. >> But who got in? >> No, no, no. You the owner of the wall, you broke the wall and then Moshe >> of another >> another person mo went by and got injured. Okay. So yes [snorts] might be either the person who so let's see. So the question was here who is or which means the person who hid those things in the hotel or the owner of the wall. But the continues, oh, we already know this term. So, when they have thorns or pieces of broken glass, what would they do? They will take them to the field and they will dig like three, which is 24 cm into the ground. And then they will put the glasses the pieces of glass or whatever there. Why? So they plow when you plow the field it will not bring it back. So so deep so it will be mash buried. Why? Because they didn't want anyone to b to be damaged or to get hurt because if they would who should who is responsible seems to be that the person who hid it he is responsible. So what do you see from here? Theim did something extra, right? There is no is there is no prohibition in hiding pieces of glass or whatever in your wall. The only thing is that if that wall is gone and someone else was damaged, you become what? Responsible for paying for the damages. But the wanted to avoid what? Not the payment, the damages. Meaning they were more concerned for someone else's sake. Exactly. So they took upon themselves, you know, more work in order to do what? In order to prevent any damages. So here, this is an interesting thing. Here there is a testament or testimony, sorry, about what they did, but that has nothing to do with something spiritual. They're not talking about what Davening saying to healing before they put the pieces of glass, right? Basically, what did they do? They were extra sensitive, extra careful and pre in order to prevent damages. Now, this is interesting. Why? Because you would think that the topha the rabbis will do what? Will require everyone to do it. But the answer is they did it. Now this is an interesting thing. >> Too much pressure if you want. >> So it might be that it's just too much. People would say look I'm not digging in my own field for three now I'm just going to put it in your wall. Okay if you will break the wall I'll take care of it whatever or I'm willing to want to take the responsibilities. So perhaps the rabbi saw we can demand it from every person. It might be very good. Second option can be what? There is really no need for that. There is really no need for that in a normal society that people know that you put things in a wall. >> Be careful. Just be careful. Meaning, and this is an interesting point here. Let's say you drive in a road that says that you need to drive there 30 kilometer per hour. Okay. Should I and I'm not saying that now there are kids all over the place. It's not Kanuka, okay? They are all in schools. Should I drive 15 kilometers per hour just to make sure that you know I just want to be extra careful? Am I can I obligate you to do it? >> Definitely not because the tamu says 30 based on statistics and based on research that what that with 30 you will be able to stop at time. >> Okay, very good. Sometimes there slow drivers cause more issues than fast drivers. Okay, that's also true. But the question is do I is there any obligation or or demand requirement of what of being even extra careful? Okay. >> And what is the reason to is that they want to be more pious so they look better in other people's eyes. >> No, they just didn't want to cause a damage to someone. Now we understand that obviously you can take it to all different directions, right? uh because if you don't want to hurt someone not necessarily physically but also emotionally u whatever so then it seems to be that you will try to avoid as much as you as you can. By the way, the talks about, for example, if I I want to grow um um mustard, okay? And mustard bring bees. Okay? So, how where can I plant the mustard next to your u yard? Okay. So, theor says you need to what to create some kind of a distance between the mustard and and and my uh in my yard. >> Mustard. >> Should I now let's say let's say it's uh it's 20 m. Should I do it 40 mters like to plant the mustard in my dining room? Meaning after Hazal created those distance between potential damage and my neighbor, should I take an extra step and say, you know what, if they said 10 mters, I will do 15 m. On one hand, you would say, "Wow, nice, right?" But on the other hand, think about it. It's undermined my takana. If I'm as the rabbi and all the great rabbis, we created an enactment. We create a decree that you need to plant your tree 10 m from my border because of the roots and everything. And you go ahead and say, "No, no, I'll do 15 just to be sure." You basically say, "What?" don't know what >> the rabbis maybe don't know what they're talking about and they are not as careful and as sensitive as as I am which can definitely destabilize and jeopardize what the status of the rabbis and then it's also make it almost meaningless why do I need to come as the rabbi sit and and decide when you will do >> whatever you want so that brings us and oh okay that brings us to the discussion that we're going to have that sometimes sometimes pious behavior might be nice but on a communal level it might be a problem. It might be a problem because you try to create you try to create something that it's like general policy. Now if you in your house want to do what different things but when it affects society and society sees it it's something else. I will give you for example I will give you an example it's also we know that are exempt from saying the first night and according to some even four nights okay good. What happens when back then and this is the Mishna really talks about that story says no no no I'm going to D in Mariv after the after he comes out instead of taking pictures he says okay Mariv what do you do with him we tell him you shouldn't right and if you do it's what is yara >> arrogance >> arrogance like you show everyone else can't but I I can Gabel did it. Okay. Uh and people asked him exactly the same question. Which means the question I want to make it more I want to make it deeper and stronger and much more meaningful. The question is when you talk about this a bit of a tension between the individual and the community and when the community decides to do A and the individual try to do B can you force him not to do it and then when it's not only an individual it's a group a group of who decides that what that they do be even though everyone as a the question is what do you do with them? Yes. >> So here is different it's an integral part of the judicial system. It's an integral part of the judicial system of the Jewish judicial system. Part of the tools that we have in our judicial system is and there are expectations from everyone to do and sometimes there is extra expectation from a rabbi to do but that's part of the deen part of the requirement is that you need to do here it's not so that's yes >> to separate from >> yeah there is also do not separate yourself from the community. So again there is an individual which is also applies to the individual as well but then you also have a question about what about groups you have a group of people okay just imagine here okay let's we and then you have a group of 10 men who decided to do what >> sit for an hour >> to sit for an hour >> after what yeah >> yeah to stay another hour after fill like also you know think about all the other people like they start feeling what >> bad about themselves >> you don't they think that this group is crazy okay it might be also it might be that that's what they think but also that also creates some kind of an issue of like what other people think about you so obviously you can understand how charged this uh this topic is. So we will obviously continue next week.