0:00 / 0:00
Chasidim Rishonim & The World of Halacha (Pt V) | Rabbi Shai FInkelstein | January 20th 2026
55 views
www.ouisrael.org facebook.com/ouisrael #OUisrael #torah #judaism #torahlectures
Comments(0)
Transcript
Auto-generated transcript. Not time-synced to the video.
Um so first uh just to say that this
year is sponsored for the 2025 2026
academic year in memory
by their families maybe.
Okay. So we are in the last year I think
about
and the complicated issue that we have
with them regarding what regarding them
and so we spoke about
was the last one.
It's interesting it's the last of the
first one probably. Yes. What?
>> What page? We are on page seven.
And um and we are really at um in the
middle of uh of this source
which is the Bavi. By the way, we saw
Josephus talking about this hony, you
remember? And I I hope you remember and
we saw the tofta, we saw the Mishna, and
now we are in the middle of the bi. And
we also spoke about um the sources that
tried to portray Hony in different ways
because he was obviously a little bit of
an odd person. Not that he was strange.
He was just odd in terms of behavior and
we didn't know what to do with him. So
we according to some sources we tried to
bring him closer to the fold and some uh
sources basically say you know what
let's just keep him away because we
really have no clue what what to do with
him. So we are on um on page seven and
the story there was that basically is
that when they came to ask him to
>> okay
>> so I can hear you
>> okay
>> thank you
>> are welcome so um when um when they came
to ask him to stop the rain he told them
look
which codes with
So here he is a he knows that what that
you don't do and to stop the rain.
However he says bring me a partial bring
me aan I will bring it as a thanksgiving
offering but at the same time I will
also ask what for God to stop the rain.
So we so basically he didn't do anything
wrong halakically and we would expect
that the story will end there because
Shimon Benettak really shouldn't have
any problems with him
Shimanet can't just let it go and he
says
if you are not I will excommunicate you
why? What did I do wrong? Like
we said that there are two problems,
right? You remember with all the four
weeks I think four weeks we are dealing
with that. Um and look how much rain
came out of item
but that's without me putting myself in
the circle. Um but I will say that we
have the what
circle that was his mistake. If he would
do circle would be better. So the thing
is is what is that we saw that there are
two main issues two issues. one you pray
for rain in a in a like quote unquote
almost like a magic thing because we
have a process if there's no rain you
fast at the beginning it's only the
scholars and after the scholars you have
amma all the people okay and after if
you don't have rain what do you do you
wait for next year and here just skipped
all of that and just d for them in
keshisan for rain so that was one issue
second issue was to stop the rain That's
a
that we say that you don't
that you don't d if there's too much
rain. Right? So those are two issues
here. Like what's the problem? What do
you want? So says if you are not I will
excommunicate you. Why?
This is a
it's almost like a a mystery.
He says to
if these years were like the years of
Eli Yahu that he kept the keys for the
reign,
God's name will be desecrated by you.
Ma,
what is he talking about? Okay, so what
do we need to do? go to Tanakh, right?
It's nice. Not to the to the Tanakh.
Okay, straight to the Tanakh.
And the story with Tanak is that and I
need to give a little bit of an
introduction.
We know that Ali decreed drought, right?
He decreed no rain until I say so. Why
was he so upset? Why aliyah would do
that?
That was the car.
For what?
>> From from what? So interesting. Kazal
has something to say about it. Kazal say
that
there was a person by the name of
Yo. He lost all his children.
Now why would he lose all his children?
Okay, there can many may be can be many
reasons but the reason given is that he
built
he built Jericho. Now Yeshua back then
said what? Anyone who is going to build
Jericho
which means everyone of your kids will
be dead as a result of what? of building
this city because this city needs to be
what?
You don't touch it. Now why would the
children would be punished for what he
did? This is not my question. However,
so he sits Shiva
who was the king at the time of Eli
Yahu.
A was not known to be the greatest.
Okay. But he did and whatever. But
so went to the Shiva house to
Who else went to the Shiva house? Ela
which I always like to say this Midrash
because I think you can learn so much
even though did something terrible and
Eli Yahu knew that his children died
because of what he did. If you see Shiva
what do you do? You go and visit.
It's an interesting
thing. Even though religiously
he did something terrible
because you see Shiva I'm going to sit
with him. However, you know in Shiva
houses you have conversations.
So
looks at Eliu and Ela and says to Ela
look why do you think his kids
died? And Eliu says what do you mean
Yeshua took an oath? Anyone who is going
to build Jericho his kids will die. So
this is the reason
says to him are you kidding me? You know
Mushe says that what that if we will
worship idol idols we will have no rain.
We say it every day
I worship any idol I want and
we have plenty of rain. So if Mosha's
oath is not fulfilled even more so his
student. So,
you know what it is in English?
Don't exactly. Don't make me crazy.
Don't Don't say things like that. I
don't believe you. They died because of
whatever, but they didn't die because of
what Yeshua said. Ela got so upset. And
he says, "Hashem,
no more rain." He didn't ask Hashem. He
just declared it.
There is no rain until I say so.
in order to teach
that what that when Moshe said if you
will worship idols there will be no rain
in it there is no rain so it's
interesting they're woriing idols Hashem
does not punish them who punishes them
which is very interesting okay so Ela
did it in order to accomplish what goal
that that will recognize his mistake and
also obviously the Jewish people
basically to prove Mosha's
Moshe right he caused the Jewish people
tremendous pain for how many years
I think it's three years if I'm not
mistaken three years and just imagine
how many people died because of that
drought and you know that Eliao was fed
by different people trying to teach him
compassion mercy Okay
to now
when decreed that there is no rain he in
a way put God in a no win situation.
If God will give rain will say what
this entire thing is a joke. We can
worship any idol we want and God will
still give us rain. If God would listen
to Eli Yahu, he will prove Moshe to be
right, but he will cause tremendous
suffering for the Jewish people.
In a way, Elao put God in a similar way.
Now, you're going to like jump from your
own chairs to kind
says to him,
Right. K says to Hashem what?
Now we call we read it as
which means a confession.
Many
reads it
mean what? It's too hard for you to
carry my sin. You are all powerful.
Can't you forgive me? And really from
it went down to what? Only na
from like to move and to wander. It
moved it changed to what to only to move
which means in a way also kind put God
in an in an quote unquote no win
situation in our world. Now the question
was what else can Hashem uh do um he can
uh have a prophecy to in a dream and
tell him what Moshe said it's true what
Yeshua said it's true what was punished
it was because he built and you know why
I still give rain at your time even
though you are an idol worshipper
because I have mercy on am very simple
now
so Ela decided there is no rain right
for three years until Hashem basically
tells him what
and stop it. Finish it. You need to have
rain.
Now Hony and Shimon Benett
Shimon Benettak says to Hony what
if you were at the time of Ela
after two months of drought probably the
people would come to you and say what
Ela
give us rain and what would you do you
will give them rain what will happen to
Ela's decree
It will disappear. It will be broken.
Right? And
the name of God will be desecrated. Why?
Because Eli Yahu said what? No rain. And
Hony says can rain. Okay. So Ela says
whatever he says I God would probably
listen to you and God's name will be
desecrated.
So what is the message that Shiman
Benetta says to Hony according to this
gsa
your what
took
>> that what
>> you took matters into your hands little
bit even more more
think about the conflicts between the
head of an institution of Torah and
you think you are sham time you think
you sanctify the name of God by what? By
showing everyone how beloved you are and
everyone want to be you can lead to
what? To the desecration of the name of
God. Because you know what even a father
from time to time say to his son what?
No. And what do you think am Israel will
do when God will tell you no?
By the way, that sounds like Josephus.
You remember that story from Josephus
when Agrias when Aristobelus and Hordus
right Hinus thank you and Hinus when
they were fighting and they both one of
the group take uh took um and asked him
to Davin for the destruction of the
other group and he said no and they
stoned him they made a circle around him
and they stoned him and that was the
desecration of the name of God basically
what Shimanet says it's not about
halaka. It's about this entire magic
thing. This this
Jew that has this magical connections to
Hashem. It's not good. It's not good. It
will lead to the desecration of the name
of God. Sounds familiar.
>> Yes. Question. You had a question.
>> You suggested a solution
at that point in history.
is still talking to people other than
>> other than you said
>> other than a neim um
I don't think so but you can make an
exception you know oh there is can be
some kind of a sign or god can send kaem
whatever there is a way to deal with it
but what I wanted to show that this
according to this bley basically What
above did and take a look this is the
the methodologia this is the mythology
is that when you bring closer to the
fold so he didn't do anything nonhalikic
so why human was so upset with him
answer the desecration of the name of
god which means your behavior can lead
to the desecration of the name of god
we can't build your religious life based
on what
I call it magic
wonders, miracles, I'm just going to
talk to God and let me take care of it.
It doesn't work. You need to have some
kind of what?
Of a system.
A system. And that's what basically says
to to
and then he says,
"But what can I do to you? I can't
excommunicate you because then I'm
dealing with whom? with your father
which is God. So I'm not dealing with
him.
So whatever you want to ask God God
grant granting it for you
and that's what the says on you.
So what can I say? Your parent should be
happy that they have such a child like
you. But really, if you ask me, if you
will not have God protection, I will go
after you. I will excommunicate you
because for you it works, but it doesn't
work for the people.
By the way,
for 40 years in the desert, Moshe was
trying to send the same message to the
people. It's not me. It's not the staff.
It's not miracles. It's only God. Your
complaints are not on me. They are on
God. The miracles I perform, it's not
me. It's Hashem. Which means trying to
there is a delicate tension here
obviously between people who want to
believe in something tangible to
something that is very obviously very
abstract. Okay. So this is the idea. So
then he continues
Here we have an additional story that we
didn't see yet. So the writer says that
the people who sit in the katakazit who
sits in the katagazit Sanhedrin this is
interesting. So the Sanhedrin sent a
message to saying
what does that mean? That's a
you decree something by saying
something.
You say something here and makes it
happen from up there.
And on your path there is a light,
a generation that was in darkness.
You um
illuminate in your in your prayer.
A generation that was down, you
basically lift them up.
in a generation that was basically sunk
into his sins. You saved with your
a generation that was not clean. Meaning
spiritually
you basically save this generation with
your behavior.
This is a fascinating brighter
because basically this brighter
represents whom?
Everyone who disagreed with Shimon
Benetta.
You think that the rabbi back then was a
easy job telling you right then nothing
changed. Shimon Benetta who is the head
of the Sanhedrin. He sends a message to
Hony saying what?
>> I will excommunicate you. I will go
after you. If I just have the power to
do it, I will go after you and you will
be done.
His friends, Shimon Venetta's
colleagues, they look at Hony and say,
"What? You saved this generation. They
were so down. They were so frustrated.
They were so much in darkness. You saved
them. So how can you explain such a
thing? And the answer is
Jews.
The answer is it depends how you look at
honey.
And how do you look at this phenomena of
someone who is extraordinary,
someone who can do those things outside
of the box
and can he be
under this fold
that you try to establish? It might be
that people of this Sanhedrin and I
don't know how many of them. Yeah, some
of them sent a message to to and
basically telling him what
you basically saved this generation
when Shan Menetta says to him what
you might save this generation but you
destroyed other generations.
So
it's interesting to know that a there
was disagreement among the Sanhedrin
regarding what to do what to do with
honey but also it's really how to relate
to something that is definitely not part
of what not part of the mainstream Juda
let's call it mainstream Judaism we will
call it we'll do it very modern
okay
I'll talk about it Why not?
One of the things that we have in our
para talking about mainstream and little
bit outside of the mainstream. One of
the things that we have in our para
which is incredible. I always like this
puk when says to mushe
okay
I'll let you go to serve God in the
desert. But who should go?
The man should go. The man should what?
Serve God. That's what we all do. only
the men.
And Moshe says to him, "What
we all go? Men, women, children, boys,
girls, all of them, sons, daughters, all
of them. We are going why
for everyone, which by the way, it's so
true. Especially with PES, we cannot
fulfill my I cannot fulfill my
obligation on PES without my kids asking
me questions, right? the kids is an
essential part of what of
according to the when God says okay give
me a guarantor for the Torah we offered
our children meaning continuity okay I
don't know exactly what we do maybe okay
but the idea is what is that a family
everything we do is we do as a family
right good
and this is where you not only just sit
with your family but that's where you
also accomplished spiritual heights with
your family, right? That's why it's
called
a sacrifice for the Okay, good. No,
where am I aiming?
There is now a new phenomena
which is not that new, but it's very new
for Israelis
>> to go to not Egypt.
>> No,
Oman.
I'm talking about thousands, ten of
thousands of people leave their families
during
and they go to um now I know history a
bit
back in the 18th century
many men went to be with the rabbi which
I also have a question on the same
thing. Where is
I I don't know if you ask yourself a
question. If you have a village
and you have a 100 Jewish families there
and let's say this village is aid
whatever whatever city different city
and let's say it's 50 miles distance
between that little village and where
the the rabbi is.
Most of the men leave the village in
order to be with their rabbi. Who is in
shu?
Where are the children? Like what do
they do during
or sometimes?
So there there there is like what is
that like a rotation every year there is
like a minion that stays you know behind
behind and and the rest of the village
is is like is out like how exactly the
hag looks like in that village
>> okay so so
what's the idea the idea is you have a
hug okay just imagine
Okay, it's such a party, right? And then
what's the in that village is that we
are packing the luggage for our father
to go on the wagon in order to go to a
village which is 50 miles from here to
be with his rabbi. Okay, wonderful.
Everyone is excited and he promised to
bring gifts after. Wonderful. Okay,
seven kids at home.
>> Okay, so what do they do? They go to
these 10 people who had to stay for
Armenian.
Now I know I don't think anyone here
asked the question because we don't do
that. I mean I guess no one here goes to
Oman. Now when you talk to people who
went to Oman and I'm not talking about
umim okay I'm talking about like regular
people you ask they tell you that the
experience now I'm not talking about the
people who are in drugs. I'm not I'm
talking about like normative people who
go there in order to you know be
enriched spiritually. They tell me that
it's an incredible experience that they
cannot really fully describe until you
go there. Now they they're not going to
convince me to go. Okay.
But the idea is what is that you create
this out of the ordinary and out of the
mainstream what we supposed to do and
you put yourself in a halic issue
because you leave your family and you go
how do we view that?
If someone askked me rabbi, someone
asked me on rabbi I would like to go to
um it means that I'm going to leave my
family here. What should I do? Should I
tell him? Should I tell him mut only if
your wife give you permission? Only if
you take the entire family or only if
you promise me that you do it only once
in your life as
>> the last one.
>> The what?
>> The last one.
>> Last one. Okay.
>> Get it out of the system.
>> Get it out of the system. And then if he
comes back and says, "Rabbi, this is was
the most spiritual high that I ever got.
Can I go next year?" What am I telling
him?
>> No.
>> No. I'm good. Good rabbi. Okay.
What do you do? Or what did you do in
your professional life?
>> I drove a truck.
>> Ah, okay. But but
much better that you were not a rabbi.
Okay.
>> Definitely not.
>> So, so we have a problem here. We do
have a problem. How do you view
outside of what we will call the
mainstream? And then obviously there is
a question who decides what is what what
is mainstream. So you will say halaka
who decides about halaka. So when it
comes to spirituality everyone obviously
has their own way to achieve
spirituality. But what happens when you
want to achieve spirituality based on
what? on attention between that
accomplishment to
I can achieve spirituality only if I go
to the mikvah seven times before I don't
but let's say now going seven times to
the mikvah it means that I will be at
around 10:30 which is time okay if you
go to the sometimes you can have last
and the beginning of ma almost at the
same time okay it's always so nice
sometimes when you go to um moreish uh
neighborhoods you see people at 11:45
with their talit and fill in you know
coming back home for breakfast I know
it's maybe they
and they studied all day until that but
some of them don't look like that but
whatever so the idea is what what do you
do when you have this tension shim was
very strict
now I fully understand this especially
based on history you need you need
everything but what do you do when there
is a confrontation between achieving
spirituality
and hala. Yes. I just want to go back a
little bit and that is why heal
this particular skill or this.
So the thing is like that basically shim
says look I can't change God's mind
meaning he decided to give you those
skills and he listens to you but you
honey needs to tell the people don't
come to me
it's your
responsibility as an educator to tell
them
don't come to me I'm not going to be the
one to give you rain and I cannot stop
it either I I have a special connection
to God. I can daven for him. Let's d
together. But what Hony did when he did
this circle, he basically separated
himself from all the others. He says,
"You stay out of the circle. Let me do
it for you." And that's what I think
Shimon Benetta was so against. You can't
do that. You can't tell them, "Come to
me. I'll fix it." Because a there is
going to be something that you will not
be able to fix. And b you make it too
easy for them.
Why do I need to do anything when there
is a fixer by the name of
the problem?
Yes.
by the way there is just as a side note
um the idea of also I don't want to
develop it too much but the dependency
that you that you create by going to
someone who says to you I'll fix it for
you or you believe that he's going to
fix it for you when this person dies at
the end of the day you are totally lost
you are totally lost
Good story.
>> Just as a side note, I will just tell
you that there is something incredible
between Kabad and breast love. Breast
love is the
longest without a reb which in our days
being renewed
and develop and kabad
is the next without the reb that you
would think that after he passed away
according to the opinions that he did
that they will be done.
No more exactly the opposite. They grew
It's an incredible phenomena when you
think about it because you would think
the reb every of every is the main thing
and if there is no reb there is no what
the rebu was able to create was very
similar to what
was creating is what is the image is
that that movement which is an
incredible thing which by the way and
breast are very different from each
other
is very cognitive
No, no, not cognitive. Yeah, they they
they really into quote unquote learning.
Not quote unquote, it's not nice to say
into learning. It's very important for
them where breastlav basically says,
okay, I'm not going to give you a dr
about
because I'm not aass either. But the
thing is is that the idea of that the
rebi is not there and the movement grow
goes. So the idea of Hony, let's go back
to Hony.
Hony was the man for special missions as
you can see. But Shiman Bett did not
want it. Now obviously we can always ask
what's your problem
like there is one person
okay he's an incredible person who can
bring rain when there is no rain.
He helps the Jewish people. Okay. When
he will die, your responsibility
to tell them what look was very special.
We don't have a person like that
anymore. We now have what a process.
Why are you according to this?
Basically what Hony what Chimon Machet
says to Hani in this generation you
might be a great guy but you know what
people will have expectation that they
will have someone like that in every
generation and we can't guarantee it not
only that we cannot guarantee it
sometimes your blessings can be a curse
for the Jewish people
and also a curse for whom? For God
himself.
So it's not good what you do.
Okay.
So
can easily say this is an exception. He
can explain to everybody this guy's an
exception. We don't do it by rely on
external things.
>> Yeah. But I think it's I think it's a
pretty naive thing. Shimon cannot
explain it to everyone. There is no mass
emails you know there is no uh ads that
you it just you can't and people also
get used to it. I don't know how old was
how many times he did it. There's those
those things are missing. We don't we
don't know but definitely Shiman Benett
says it's not acceptable. Okay let's see
the army. The army says
I'm going to excommunicate you
but what can I do?
So he says
says to him look I would excommunicate
you but what can I do? You are like a
child that basically appeases father.
And then the brings
here in the is little different
basically says to him
if now in this generation the fact that
we had a drought until now maybe because
God decided to teach us a lesson to make
us suffer a bit so we will do chuva.
And now you come along and you force God
to what? To give rain. And you basically
what did you what did you do?
You took away our opportunity to do cha.
So you fixed this year. But what will be
next year and the next year? You
basically allow the Jews to basically im
immerse themselves more and more in the
sin and they will not be able to add.
You are not helping them.
Exactly the opposite.
You are making their their situation
even worse.
Now what?
What are you talking here about? So
basically he says something interesting.
The focus is
what is
delay.
There was a between
what do you do with
that they also they and they are on
their way and there will be Shabbat but
they already know that what the two adim
already testified. So do you allow
others to what to be Shabbat and come?
So one opinion says if there are two
already must speak
the other opinion says says no you allow
allow you allow everyone to go to be why
because if you're not next time that
they see it nobody will come. So there
is the idea of what
says
they have an opportunity to look at
something which is challenging drought
for an agriculture society it's terrible
okay they need water they need rain but
by you giving them rain instantly
without them going through the process
of chuva
you cause them more harm
than anything
This is an incredible tradition of the
basically says to
you
delay the community from doing chuva.
Hony says to Shimon Benetta, this is the
only tradition that Hony what responds
back, talk back to Shimon and Hony says
to Shimon, okay, stop threatening me. We
find many cases that Hashem decrees
something and that Sadi can nullify the
decree.
An example, Hashem says to Moshe, many
after golden calf, let me annihilate the
Jewish people. and Moshe convince Hashem
not to do it right. So
says Benetti.
Yeah, it's true. But I also decreed that
it should be a drought.
Why?
In order to teach them that they need to
do chuva. So now
Hashem really does not nullify of one
sadik against the other. But you are not
only a sadik. You are what? You are like
a child to God. And that's why God
listened to you and didn't what listen
to me. Now this is an interesting thing
is now talking about what a the delay of
the chuva from the people themselves
which is a quote unquote a sin. But he
also tell Holly don't think that you are
greater than me.
In terms of
we are the same. The only additional
um
benefit or or or quality thank you that
you have is what that you are not only a
sadik but you are also god child and
that's why you won
>> and this is why you won the competition
meaning I'm also I made a decree you
made a decree God listened to you not
because you are greater than me just
because what you have an additional
quality quality which is you are God's
child meaning God treats you like a
child
>> not not everyone is God's child but he
meaning
was really like the favorite child of
God like God would always listen to him
yeah
>> he in a way when he I guess I mean
that's how
explained when he s when he saw that
there is no rain he in a way said to God
good let's teach him a lesson now it's
hard because it described Shim Bened as
a very
tough uh rabbi or whatever but uh
sometimes he said okay maybe there's
going to be this year will be terrible
year but after that we will have we will
have exactly now the second and with
that we will end this entire
stories.
So
son was sick.
So he sent to
ask for mercy for his son.
So when he saw the students, he
immediately went up to the attic and
David
when he went down
go
is fine. He's okay. He cured. He was
cured.
But you are a prophet.
I'm not a prophet. I'm not a son of a
prophet.
But that's how I know.
I have a rule, a principle that what
if
which means what
means
fluent if it flows. So then I know that
my was accepted but if my had delayed
delays and then it was not didn't go
smoothly I know something happened. So
here it went smoothly and therefore I
know that he was um that he was uh
cured. Now what? Why did they bring
that? It's very interesting.
Okay. So one we see who was the head of
the Sanhedrin. When his son got sick, he
sent him to the the Torah the the the
scholar who knows how to d it. Hey,
however,
here you see a story that described that
there is nothing wrong with it. And why
it's
he does nothing. That's part of you can
dive in. Some people can dive in more,
some people can dive in less. Some
people have more covenant. Some people
have less covenant
who is known to be aid, one of the he
doesn't make a miracle. He doesn't put a
circle and says, "God, if you don't
listen to me," he goes to the attic and
he dabbins. It might be that he will
have a smooth dvening and might be that
what? That he will fail. He doesn't
promise anything. He just go and
basically he tried to do what he knows
what to do which is to d
>> no he was not
>> because he knew that the dvening was
smooth which means he saw based on his
experience if he dven and it flows it
will be okay but that was his
interpretation. God never told him that
that's how it works. So that's what he
told him. So here we see that you can
still use
but you need to what
it's not against and it does not prevent
someone from doing
also I guess David
>> similar problem to in the sense that
you're relying on somebody else
wants you
>> no does not mean that never ded maybe he
tried and didn't work the I can say
>> I mean I can say only from what is
written not from what is not written I
can bring proofs so here no so he sent
two by the way they didn't go by
themselves it's not like that the people
went
told told them go and talk to him
>> you got okay so in yeah before the
inconclusion
>> exactly that's another another
distinction between the stories and that
this one is a personal thing. It's not
something that affects the entire
people. So in conclusion,
yes, before the inconclusion.
>> No, no, I will need to run. So you can
do it now.
>> What I
watching that
So amazing.
They were gone from their family like
they also
at a higher level of relating to the
children
>> maybe.
>> Yeah. But uh
I don't know if there was a research
about it. They were just interviewed.
That's what they said. But it's not
true. It is true. How many of them for
them it's true and it's not true? No one
knows. Okay. So in conclusion now
we don't have a
we do have some people that sometimes
think that they are
and really the main core
matter or discussion or issue that I
tried to bring into the surface was
mainstream
Judaism
versus out of the box. How do we deal
with phenomenas like that? Do we hold
like Shimon Benettak or we hold like
Katagazit? Do we understand that some
generations needs it, some generation do
not? How do you balance it? How do we
balance it by ourselves? Okay. So this
is basically I'm not giving here any
formulas of answers or anything like
that. Just wanted to bring that uh issue
to the surface and result next week
we'll do something I don't know less or
more complicated. We will see. Okay.