Chasidim Rishonim & The World of Halacha (Pt V) | Rabbi Shai FInkelstein | January 20th 2026

Um so first uh just to say that this year is sponsored for the 2025 2026 academic year in memory by their families maybe. Okay. So we are in the last year I think about and the complicated issue that we have with them regarding what regarding them and so we spoke about was the last one. It's interesting it's the last of the first one probably. Yes. What? >> What page? We are on page seven. And um and we are really at um in the middle of uh of this source which is the Bavi. By the way, we saw Josephus talking about this hony, you remember? And I I hope you remember and we saw the tofta, we saw the Mishna, and now we are in the middle of the bi. And we also spoke about um the sources that tried to portray Hony in different ways because he was obviously a little bit of an odd person. Not that he was strange. He was just odd in terms of behavior and we didn't know what to do with him. So we according to some sources we tried to bring him closer to the fold and some uh sources basically say you know what let's just keep him away because we really have no clue what what to do with him. So we are on um on page seven and the story there was that basically is that when they came to ask him to >> okay >> so I can hear you >> okay >> thank you >> are welcome so um when um when they came to ask him to stop the rain he told them look which codes with So here he is a he knows that what that you don't do and to stop the rain. However he says bring me a partial bring me aan I will bring it as a thanksgiving offering but at the same time I will also ask what for God to stop the rain. So we so basically he didn't do anything wrong halakically and we would expect that the story will end there because Shimon Benettak really shouldn't have any problems with him Shimanet can't just let it go and he says if you are not I will excommunicate you why? What did I do wrong? Like we said that there are two problems, right? You remember with all the four weeks I think four weeks we are dealing with that. Um and look how much rain came out of item but that's without me putting myself in the circle. Um but I will say that we have the what circle that was his mistake. If he would do circle would be better. So the thing is is what is that we saw that there are two main issues two issues. one you pray for rain in a in a like quote unquote almost like a magic thing because we have a process if there's no rain you fast at the beginning it's only the scholars and after the scholars you have amma all the people okay and after if you don't have rain what do you do you wait for next year and here just skipped all of that and just d for them in keshisan for rain so that was one issue second issue was to stop the rain That's a that we say that you don't that you don't d if there's too much rain. Right? So those are two issues here. Like what's the problem? What do you want? So says if you are not I will excommunicate you. Why? This is a it's almost like a a mystery. He says to if these years were like the years of Eli Yahu that he kept the keys for the reign, God's name will be desecrated by you. Ma, what is he talking about? Okay, so what do we need to do? go to Tanakh, right? It's nice. Not to the to the Tanakh. Okay, straight to the Tanakh. And the story with Tanak is that and I need to give a little bit of an introduction. We know that Ali decreed drought, right? He decreed no rain until I say so. Why was he so upset? Why aliyah would do that? That was the car. For what? >> From from what? So interesting. Kazal has something to say about it. Kazal say that there was a person by the name of Yo. He lost all his children. Now why would he lose all his children? Okay, there can many may be can be many reasons but the reason given is that he built he built Jericho. Now Yeshua back then said what? Anyone who is going to build Jericho which means everyone of your kids will be dead as a result of what? of building this city because this city needs to be what? You don't touch it. Now why would the children would be punished for what he did? This is not my question. However, so he sits Shiva who was the king at the time of Eli Yahu. A was not known to be the greatest. Okay. But he did and whatever. But so went to the Shiva house to Who else went to the Shiva house? Ela which I always like to say this Midrash because I think you can learn so much even though did something terrible and Eli Yahu knew that his children died because of what he did. If you see Shiva what do you do? You go and visit. It's an interesting thing. Even though religiously he did something terrible because you see Shiva I'm going to sit with him. However, you know in Shiva houses you have conversations. So looks at Eliu and Ela and says to Ela look why do you think his kids died? And Eliu says what do you mean Yeshua took an oath? Anyone who is going to build Jericho his kids will die. So this is the reason says to him are you kidding me? You know Mushe says that what that if we will worship idol idols we will have no rain. We say it every day I worship any idol I want and we have plenty of rain. So if Mosha's oath is not fulfilled even more so his student. So, you know what it is in English? Don't exactly. Don't make me crazy. Don't Don't say things like that. I don't believe you. They died because of whatever, but they didn't die because of what Yeshua said. Ela got so upset. And he says, "Hashem, no more rain." He didn't ask Hashem. He just declared it. There is no rain until I say so. in order to teach that what that when Moshe said if you will worship idols there will be no rain in it there is no rain so it's interesting they're woriing idols Hashem does not punish them who punishes them which is very interesting okay so Ela did it in order to accomplish what goal that that will recognize his mistake and also obviously the Jewish people basically to prove Mosha's Moshe right he caused the Jewish people tremendous pain for how many years I think it's three years if I'm not mistaken three years and just imagine how many people died because of that drought and you know that Eliao was fed by different people trying to teach him compassion mercy Okay to now when decreed that there is no rain he in a way put God in a no win situation. If God will give rain will say what this entire thing is a joke. We can worship any idol we want and God will still give us rain. If God would listen to Eli Yahu, he will prove Moshe to be right, but he will cause tremendous suffering for the Jewish people. In a way, Elao put God in a similar way. Now, you're going to like jump from your own chairs to kind says to him, Right. K says to Hashem what? Now we call we read it as which means a confession. Many reads it mean what? It's too hard for you to carry my sin. You are all powerful. Can't you forgive me? And really from it went down to what? Only na from like to move and to wander. It moved it changed to what to only to move which means in a way also kind put God in an in an quote unquote no win situation in our world. Now the question was what else can Hashem uh do um he can uh have a prophecy to in a dream and tell him what Moshe said it's true what Yeshua said it's true what was punished it was because he built and you know why I still give rain at your time even though you are an idol worshipper because I have mercy on am very simple now so Ela decided there is no rain right for three years until Hashem basically tells him what and stop it. Finish it. You need to have rain. Now Hony and Shimon Benett Shimon Benettak says to Hony what if you were at the time of Ela after two months of drought probably the people would come to you and say what Ela give us rain and what would you do you will give them rain what will happen to Ela's decree It will disappear. It will be broken. Right? And the name of God will be desecrated. Why? Because Eli Yahu said what? No rain. And Hony says can rain. Okay. So Ela says whatever he says I God would probably listen to you and God's name will be desecrated. So what is the message that Shiman Benetta says to Hony according to this gsa your what took >> that what >> you took matters into your hands little bit even more more think about the conflicts between the head of an institution of Torah and you think you are sham time you think you sanctify the name of God by what? By showing everyone how beloved you are and everyone want to be you can lead to what? To the desecration of the name of God. Because you know what even a father from time to time say to his son what? No. And what do you think am Israel will do when God will tell you no? By the way, that sounds like Josephus. You remember that story from Josephus when Agrias when Aristobelus and Hordus right Hinus thank you and Hinus when they were fighting and they both one of the group take uh took um and asked him to Davin for the destruction of the other group and he said no and they stoned him they made a circle around him and they stoned him and that was the desecration of the name of God basically what Shimanet says it's not about halaka. It's about this entire magic thing. This this Jew that has this magical connections to Hashem. It's not good. It's not good. It will lead to the desecration of the name of God. Sounds familiar. >> Yes. Question. You had a question. >> You suggested a solution at that point in history. is still talking to people other than >> other than you said >> other than a neim um I don't think so but you can make an exception you know oh there is can be some kind of a sign or god can send kaem whatever there is a way to deal with it but what I wanted to show that this according to this bley basically What above did and take a look this is the the methodologia this is the mythology is that when you bring closer to the fold so he didn't do anything nonhalikic so why human was so upset with him answer the desecration of the name of god which means your behavior can lead to the desecration of the name of god we can't build your religious life based on what I call it magic wonders, miracles, I'm just going to talk to God and let me take care of it. It doesn't work. You need to have some kind of what? Of a system. A system. And that's what basically says to to and then he says, "But what can I do to you? I can't excommunicate you because then I'm dealing with whom? with your father which is God. So I'm not dealing with him. So whatever you want to ask God God grant granting it for you and that's what the says on you. So what can I say? Your parent should be happy that they have such a child like you. But really, if you ask me, if you will not have God protection, I will go after you. I will excommunicate you because for you it works, but it doesn't work for the people. By the way, for 40 years in the desert, Moshe was trying to send the same message to the people. It's not me. It's not the staff. It's not miracles. It's only God. Your complaints are not on me. They are on God. The miracles I perform, it's not me. It's Hashem. Which means trying to there is a delicate tension here obviously between people who want to believe in something tangible to something that is very obviously very abstract. Okay. So this is the idea. So then he continues Here we have an additional story that we didn't see yet. So the writer says that the people who sit in the katakazit who sits in the katagazit Sanhedrin this is interesting. So the Sanhedrin sent a message to saying what does that mean? That's a you decree something by saying something. You say something here and makes it happen from up there. And on your path there is a light, a generation that was in darkness. You um illuminate in your in your prayer. A generation that was down, you basically lift them up. in a generation that was basically sunk into his sins. You saved with your a generation that was not clean. Meaning spiritually you basically save this generation with your behavior. This is a fascinating brighter because basically this brighter represents whom? Everyone who disagreed with Shimon Benetta. You think that the rabbi back then was a easy job telling you right then nothing changed. Shimon Benetta who is the head of the Sanhedrin. He sends a message to Hony saying what? >> I will excommunicate you. I will go after you. If I just have the power to do it, I will go after you and you will be done. His friends, Shimon Venetta's colleagues, they look at Hony and say, "What? You saved this generation. They were so down. They were so frustrated. They were so much in darkness. You saved them. So how can you explain such a thing? And the answer is Jews. The answer is it depends how you look at honey. And how do you look at this phenomena of someone who is extraordinary, someone who can do those things outside of the box and can he be under this fold that you try to establish? It might be that people of this Sanhedrin and I don't know how many of them. Yeah, some of them sent a message to to and basically telling him what you basically saved this generation when Shan Menetta says to him what you might save this generation but you destroyed other generations. So it's interesting to know that a there was disagreement among the Sanhedrin regarding what to do what to do with honey but also it's really how to relate to something that is definitely not part of what not part of the mainstream Juda let's call it mainstream Judaism we will call it we'll do it very modern okay I'll talk about it Why not? One of the things that we have in our para talking about mainstream and little bit outside of the mainstream. One of the things that we have in our para which is incredible. I always like this puk when says to mushe okay I'll let you go to serve God in the desert. But who should go? The man should go. The man should what? Serve God. That's what we all do. only the men. And Moshe says to him, "What we all go? Men, women, children, boys, girls, all of them, sons, daughters, all of them. We are going why for everyone, which by the way, it's so true. Especially with PES, we cannot fulfill my I cannot fulfill my obligation on PES without my kids asking me questions, right? the kids is an essential part of what of according to the when God says okay give me a guarantor for the Torah we offered our children meaning continuity okay I don't know exactly what we do maybe okay but the idea is what is that a family everything we do is we do as a family right good and this is where you not only just sit with your family but that's where you also accomplished spiritual heights with your family, right? That's why it's called a sacrifice for the Okay, good. No, where am I aiming? There is now a new phenomena which is not that new, but it's very new for Israelis >> to go to not Egypt. >> No, Oman. I'm talking about thousands, ten of thousands of people leave their families during and they go to um now I know history a bit back in the 18th century many men went to be with the rabbi which I also have a question on the same thing. Where is I I don't know if you ask yourself a question. If you have a village and you have a 100 Jewish families there and let's say this village is aid whatever whatever city different city and let's say it's 50 miles distance between that little village and where the the rabbi is. Most of the men leave the village in order to be with their rabbi. Who is in shu? Where are the children? Like what do they do during or sometimes? So there there there is like what is that like a rotation every year there is like a minion that stays you know behind behind and and the rest of the village is is like is out like how exactly the hag looks like in that village >> okay so so what's the idea the idea is you have a hug okay just imagine Okay, it's such a party, right? And then what's the in that village is that we are packing the luggage for our father to go on the wagon in order to go to a village which is 50 miles from here to be with his rabbi. Okay, wonderful. Everyone is excited and he promised to bring gifts after. Wonderful. Okay, seven kids at home. >> Okay, so what do they do? They go to these 10 people who had to stay for Armenian. Now I know I don't think anyone here asked the question because we don't do that. I mean I guess no one here goes to Oman. Now when you talk to people who went to Oman and I'm not talking about umim okay I'm talking about like regular people you ask they tell you that the experience now I'm not talking about the people who are in drugs. I'm not I'm talking about like normative people who go there in order to you know be enriched spiritually. They tell me that it's an incredible experience that they cannot really fully describe until you go there. Now they they're not going to convince me to go. Okay. But the idea is what is that you create this out of the ordinary and out of the mainstream what we supposed to do and you put yourself in a halic issue because you leave your family and you go how do we view that? If someone askked me rabbi, someone asked me on rabbi I would like to go to um it means that I'm going to leave my family here. What should I do? Should I tell him? Should I tell him mut only if your wife give you permission? Only if you take the entire family or only if you promise me that you do it only once in your life as >> the last one. >> The what? >> The last one. >> Last one. Okay. >> Get it out of the system. >> Get it out of the system. And then if he comes back and says, "Rabbi, this is was the most spiritual high that I ever got. Can I go next year?" What am I telling him? >> No. >> No. I'm good. Good rabbi. Okay. What do you do? Or what did you do in your professional life? >> I drove a truck. >> Ah, okay. But but much better that you were not a rabbi. Okay. >> Definitely not. >> So, so we have a problem here. We do have a problem. How do you view outside of what we will call the mainstream? And then obviously there is a question who decides what is what what is mainstream. So you will say halaka who decides about halaka. So when it comes to spirituality everyone obviously has their own way to achieve spirituality. But what happens when you want to achieve spirituality based on what? on attention between that accomplishment to I can achieve spirituality only if I go to the mikvah seven times before I don't but let's say now going seven times to the mikvah it means that I will be at around 10:30 which is time okay if you go to the sometimes you can have last and the beginning of ma almost at the same time okay it's always so nice sometimes when you go to um moreish uh neighborhoods you see people at 11:45 with their talit and fill in you know coming back home for breakfast I know it's maybe they and they studied all day until that but some of them don't look like that but whatever so the idea is what what do you do when you have this tension shim was very strict now I fully understand this especially based on history you need you need everything but what do you do when there is a confrontation between achieving spirituality and hala. Yes. I just want to go back a little bit and that is why heal this particular skill or this. So the thing is like that basically shim says look I can't change God's mind meaning he decided to give you those skills and he listens to you but you honey needs to tell the people don't come to me it's your responsibility as an educator to tell them don't come to me I'm not going to be the one to give you rain and I cannot stop it either I I have a special connection to God. I can daven for him. Let's d together. But what Hony did when he did this circle, he basically separated himself from all the others. He says, "You stay out of the circle. Let me do it for you." And that's what I think Shimon Benetta was so against. You can't do that. You can't tell them, "Come to me. I'll fix it." Because a there is going to be something that you will not be able to fix. And b you make it too easy for them. Why do I need to do anything when there is a fixer by the name of the problem? Yes. by the way there is just as a side note um the idea of also I don't want to develop it too much but the dependency that you that you create by going to someone who says to you I'll fix it for you or you believe that he's going to fix it for you when this person dies at the end of the day you are totally lost you are totally lost Good story. >> Just as a side note, I will just tell you that there is something incredible between Kabad and breast love. Breast love is the longest without a reb which in our days being renewed and develop and kabad is the next without the reb that you would think that after he passed away according to the opinions that he did that they will be done. No more exactly the opposite. They grew It's an incredible phenomena when you think about it because you would think the reb every of every is the main thing and if there is no reb there is no what the rebu was able to create was very similar to what was creating is what is the image is that that movement which is an incredible thing which by the way and breast are very different from each other is very cognitive No, no, not cognitive. Yeah, they they they really into quote unquote learning. Not quote unquote, it's not nice to say into learning. It's very important for them where breastlav basically says, okay, I'm not going to give you a dr about because I'm not aass either. But the thing is is that the idea of that the rebi is not there and the movement grow goes. So the idea of Hony, let's go back to Hony. Hony was the man for special missions as you can see. But Shiman Bett did not want it. Now obviously we can always ask what's your problem like there is one person okay he's an incredible person who can bring rain when there is no rain. He helps the Jewish people. Okay. When he will die, your responsibility to tell them what look was very special. We don't have a person like that anymore. We now have what a process. Why are you according to this? Basically what Hony what Chimon Machet says to Hani in this generation you might be a great guy but you know what people will have expectation that they will have someone like that in every generation and we can't guarantee it not only that we cannot guarantee it sometimes your blessings can be a curse for the Jewish people and also a curse for whom? For God himself. So it's not good what you do. Okay. So can easily say this is an exception. He can explain to everybody this guy's an exception. We don't do it by rely on external things. >> Yeah. But I think it's I think it's a pretty naive thing. Shimon cannot explain it to everyone. There is no mass emails you know there is no uh ads that you it just you can't and people also get used to it. I don't know how old was how many times he did it. There's those those things are missing. We don't we don't know but definitely Shiman Benett says it's not acceptable. Okay let's see the army. The army says I'm going to excommunicate you but what can I do? So he says says to him look I would excommunicate you but what can I do? You are like a child that basically appeases father. And then the brings here in the is little different basically says to him if now in this generation the fact that we had a drought until now maybe because God decided to teach us a lesson to make us suffer a bit so we will do chuva. And now you come along and you force God to what? To give rain. And you basically what did you what did you do? You took away our opportunity to do cha. So you fixed this year. But what will be next year and the next year? You basically allow the Jews to basically im immerse themselves more and more in the sin and they will not be able to add. You are not helping them. Exactly the opposite. You are making their their situation even worse. Now what? What are you talking here about? So basically he says something interesting. The focus is what is delay. There was a between what do you do with that they also they and they are on their way and there will be Shabbat but they already know that what the two adim already testified. So do you allow others to what to be Shabbat and come? So one opinion says if there are two already must speak the other opinion says says no you allow allow you allow everyone to go to be why because if you're not next time that they see it nobody will come. So there is the idea of what says they have an opportunity to look at something which is challenging drought for an agriculture society it's terrible okay they need water they need rain but by you giving them rain instantly without them going through the process of chuva you cause them more harm than anything This is an incredible tradition of the basically says to you delay the community from doing chuva. Hony says to Shimon Benetta, this is the only tradition that Hony what responds back, talk back to Shimon and Hony says to Shimon, okay, stop threatening me. We find many cases that Hashem decrees something and that Sadi can nullify the decree. An example, Hashem says to Moshe, many after golden calf, let me annihilate the Jewish people. and Moshe convince Hashem not to do it right. So says Benetti. Yeah, it's true. But I also decreed that it should be a drought. Why? In order to teach them that they need to do chuva. So now Hashem really does not nullify of one sadik against the other. But you are not only a sadik. You are what? You are like a child to God. And that's why God listened to you and didn't what listen to me. Now this is an interesting thing is now talking about what a the delay of the chuva from the people themselves which is a quote unquote a sin. But he also tell Holly don't think that you are greater than me. In terms of we are the same. The only additional um benefit or or or quality thank you that you have is what that you are not only a sadik but you are also god child and that's why you won >> and this is why you won the competition meaning I'm also I made a decree you made a decree God listened to you not because you are greater than me just because what you have an additional quality quality which is you are God's child meaning God treats you like a child >> not not everyone is God's child but he meaning was really like the favorite child of God like God would always listen to him yeah >> he in a way when he I guess I mean that's how explained when he s when he saw that there is no rain he in a way said to God good let's teach him a lesson now it's hard because it described Shim Bened as a very tough uh rabbi or whatever but uh sometimes he said okay maybe there's going to be this year will be terrible year but after that we will have we will have exactly now the second and with that we will end this entire stories. So son was sick. So he sent to ask for mercy for his son. So when he saw the students, he immediately went up to the attic and David when he went down go is fine. He's okay. He cured. He was cured. But you are a prophet. I'm not a prophet. I'm not a son of a prophet. But that's how I know. I have a rule, a principle that what if which means what means fluent if it flows. So then I know that my was accepted but if my had delayed delays and then it was not didn't go smoothly I know something happened. So here it went smoothly and therefore I know that he was um that he was uh cured. Now what? Why did they bring that? It's very interesting. Okay. So one we see who was the head of the Sanhedrin. When his son got sick, he sent him to the the Torah the the the scholar who knows how to d it. Hey, however, here you see a story that described that there is nothing wrong with it. And why it's he does nothing. That's part of you can dive in. Some people can dive in more, some people can dive in less. Some people have more covenant. Some people have less covenant who is known to be aid, one of the he doesn't make a miracle. He doesn't put a circle and says, "God, if you don't listen to me," he goes to the attic and he dabbins. It might be that he will have a smooth dvening and might be that what? That he will fail. He doesn't promise anything. He just go and basically he tried to do what he knows what to do which is to d >> no he was not >> because he knew that the dvening was smooth which means he saw based on his experience if he dven and it flows it will be okay but that was his interpretation. God never told him that that's how it works. So that's what he told him. So here we see that you can still use but you need to what it's not against and it does not prevent someone from doing also I guess David >> similar problem to in the sense that you're relying on somebody else wants you >> no does not mean that never ded maybe he tried and didn't work the I can say >> I mean I can say only from what is written not from what is not written I can bring proofs so here no so he sent two by the way they didn't go by themselves it's not like that the people went told told them go and talk to him >> you got okay so in yeah before the inconclusion >> exactly that's another another distinction between the stories and that this one is a personal thing. It's not something that affects the entire people. So in conclusion, yes, before the inconclusion. >> No, no, I will need to run. So you can do it now. >> What I watching that So amazing. They were gone from their family like they also at a higher level of relating to the children >> maybe. >> Yeah. But uh I don't know if there was a research about it. They were just interviewed. That's what they said. But it's not true. It is true. How many of them for them it's true and it's not true? No one knows. Okay. So in conclusion now we don't have a we do have some people that sometimes think that they are and really the main core matter or discussion or issue that I tried to bring into the surface was mainstream Judaism versus out of the box. How do we deal with phenomenas like that? Do we hold like Shimon Benettak or we hold like Katagazit? Do we understand that some generations needs it, some generation do not? How do you balance it? How do we balance it by ourselves? Okay. So this is basically I'm not giving here any formulas of answers or anything like that. Just wanted to bring that uh issue to the surface and result next week we'll do something I don't know less or more complicated. We will see. Okay.