Chasidim Rishonim & The World of Halacha (Pt IV) | Rabbi Shai FInkelstein | January 13th 2026

First, the show is sponsored for the 2025 2026 academic year in memory of Melania by their families. Okay. So uh we are talking about the harishon one of the known ones which is honagel and we saw that there is obviously an inherit tension between him and Shimon Benedak who was the scholar of the generation and really benched says to hony if you are not funny I will excommunicate you I will astracize you which is obviously a very very severe tool in order to send the message. So we talked about the idea that what hon did was problematic. Why? Um there was no rain until Nissan and according to the halaka, if there is no rain until Nissan, what do you do? You pray for the next year. You're done. Can't d again. That's a b it seems to be that if there is no rain, there is a reason for that. You don't go to hony to fix the things. He's not a magician. You don't do those things. And the third one is that Hony himself in his behavior basically I don't know I mean it's not exactly a model to speak to God and to say I want that and if you don't give me that give me it's just not it's not appropriate to some extent so obviously we understand that Chimon Benetta is not happy with honey but what can I do you are like a little child who is uh very beloved by his father and whatever you can't do any wrong in his book okay so we need to understand a little bit who is and also a little bit of background. So take a look on page six. We on page six. So part of the Mishna that says what uh what is the procedure that must be done when you um when there is no rain when there is no rain. So you take the TVA to the street and you basically you put ashes in the head of the head of the Sanhedrin and and the president and you also talk to the people and you tell the people our brothers it's not about the sack cloth and about the fasting but rather you know if you want to change God's decree you need to do what? Because we found in the story of doesn't say that looked at their what at the sack at the sackcloth and the fact that they were all fasting saw what the repentance the chuva that they did. So basically he's trying to encourage the people to do chuva. Which means what? When there is no rain and you need to start fasting and everything. It's in order to do what? Chuva. Meaning everyone wants the rain. But really the main goal of all of it is what is chuva. Is to basically give you a sign. You know what? You're not you're not behaving correctly. You need to what? To rectify your deeds. Honey didn't do it. Think about it. You have the people they don't have rain. They don't have rain. And they come to Hony. Honey, we won't train. And Honey says instead of saying to them what guys I will help you, but you need to what? You do chuva. Let me help you. Let's learn a little bit more. Let's give more. He says, sure, I'll talk to God and he will give you rain. That's not what the Mishna says. Uh, yes. >> The people at NB weren't Jewish, but they seem to behave. >> Oh, what? >> They were Jewish. >> No, no. >> So, so they seem to behave in a very Jewish way. They seem to know exactly what to do. They did chuva. I don't know what chuva they did. They did chuva. They sack and how did they know all that stuff and why did they do the Jewish stuff? >> Okay. So interesting. Um I don't know if chuva is a Jewish stuff. Um I think everyone I mean in every religion there is the idea of chuva to some extent not the but other things. A b and this is a midrashic thing which is very interesting. When the Egyptians drown in the Yamsu, it says, >> "What is?" So the the sage says and he became the king of. So when he heard Yonah saying you need to do something and Hashem is going to what to turn this city upside down he realized you know what I'm don't mess with this person anymore. I'm going to tell them to do something about it. And that's a very interesting which means a very enigmatic midrash because the story of nin happened after obviously you know you understand many many years later but the idea is even if it was not the idea that if God says to you look if you don't do a I'll do b you listen okay now little bit about which is really interesting in Josephus so Josephus was when Second temple, right? So we are talking about what the beta migdashi was destroyed in 70. So we're talking about what about that that area that time. Okay? So take a look at what Joseph says. So he says Josephus describes that the two Jewish camps are fighting with each other and the time on the calendar is what >> pes time and it's really not around but this is The ministers, the dignitaries, the scholars, they saw what's going on and they were left to where to mit. So this is the first century and they are living to mitim because they see that there's no future in Israel because the brothers who are the brothers at the end of the era or before the destruction of the second mikdash they are fighting with each other little bit later Aristo I don't know if it was henus I think it was Aristo and I forgot the talks about it also. There's Aristobelus and there is another brother. They're both from the and they were 300 years before them. But whatever they were the descendants and they are fighting with each other. One is in the other one put a siege over Jerusalem. Okay, that's the story. Okay. And there is a one righteous person there. Elohim is beloved by God. Take guess what's his name? Okay, Rabbi, with all due respect, it's two different things. [snorts] You might be right, but take a look at the next sentence. So now there is a specification. This is the person who dav to God when there was no rain and God listened to him. Interesting. So here we have a historic documentations. I'm not on documentation. I'm not saying that that's the most accurate one and that we know for sure. But we do know that this figure existed when at the first century at the time of before the destruction of the beta mikdash and he was known to be beloved by God and he already proven it by bringing this rain once. Okay. So until now it's wonderful but it's not. So basically went into hiding. He saw that the brothers are fighting and there is too much tension and animosity between the Jewish people. So he decided, you know what? I'm going to hide now. Why would you hide? Take a look. They asked Hony, "Come here. We would like you to dive into God against Aristobololis, one of the brothers and his group. So they will die and we will win." So they are asking him to do what? Take >> to >> take >> take size. That's okayish. What's the problem? What are they asking him to do? >> It's asking Hashem to kill other Jews. That's what they are asking him. Now, why would they ask him to do that? Because he can ask God whatever he wants, right? So, you just ask him to do whatever you want. So when he what refused to do so the crowd the masses start basically I guess uh you know >> circling around him we'll get there and start forcing him no no yala yala no go ahead David as so he stood within them in the middle of them. And he says, "God, the master of the world. So the people who are standing here are your people. And the people who are in under siege, they are your priests." So he ded and told God, "What? Please don't listen not to them and not to them. Okay. And he ded this specific dvening. What is >> they circled him around and they stoned him to death. That's a good one. Not the stoning. I'm talking about the the story. The story is incredible. And this is by the way one of the things that I always like to share with you is that when you see more sources, you have a better and enriched picture because until now I mean I know maybe you knew this uh Josephus and others but Hony was the story from the kindergarten. You know Hony they made a circle in Daven and everyone loves him. What we say we portray him in a very complicated way but also the Jews viewed him in a very complicated way. This is a guy that you can go to him and ask him to talk to God whenever you want. What? Then you get what? Whatever you want. Why? Because Hony never told them no. And Hony never conditioned his daving with anything for them to do. He was just going to take care of things. And if you are taking care of things, so take care of this thing too. >> Sort of a little bit like Yona. Remember Yona on the on the ship? >> Mhm. Where is the similarities >> where they asked them to to pray for the >> Yes. So, but then everyone prayed to their god and they were not answered and then they realized Yona is the cause and they told him why don't you d says I'm not dinging just throwing me to the to the sea. So that's a little bit here says I can't d against someone here. I can only do for on behalf of someone not against someone. And so they didn't like the answer. So they took a person who gave them quote unquote who gave them rain. And the minute he refused to do what they want, they stoned him. >> We have we have other story doing other things. >> Sure. >> Yeah. Wait, wait, wait. What do you think? I'll just have this one and that's it. Um but it's definitely reflects on Shimon Benetta's uh opposition to because this is the problem which by the way I'm preparing now it's like it's it will be Shabbat afternoon but in four weeks from now when you go to people when you go to graves and you daven hey what can you dav how do you dav in but when you have people who go to, you know, a rabbi or adore or rebe or whatever it is. What happens when you don't get what you want? >> When you are so dependent on someone else to do the job for you, what happen when it doesn't work? This is a major issue in religion. It's also with God. Even if you don't have any mediators, you ask God, you ask God and God does not answer you or he answer you in a different way that you think was the best thing for you. What do you do? What's your reaction? >> Sometimes the answer is not >> but it's very hard to be on the recipient end right. So the thing is but especially with people and this is why you know many times we are being told don't trust people right you can ask them you can but don't let them do your job for you. Okay. So that's Josephus. So Josephus by the way position honen first century. Now the Mishna that puts him with Shimon Benettak what years are we talking about? Much earlier Benett was Abdullah was the one of the last of the people of the great assembly that began with Ezra the scribe. So we're talking about what 70 years after the destruction of the first temple and and the people of the great assembly were for 200 years 250 years we are talking about first century or second century before the common era. So we're talking about like 200 years difference between the Mishna's description of Ki and Josephus. By the way, who what another Jew that we know for sure was in Alexandria in Egypt around the same time? Phost we call him in Hebrew Filon. An elephant. Okay. But Pho. Okay. Filon which is also interesting because he also not but he also has some interesting things that he writes. Okay. Toa. So tota we know was composed around the same time of the Mishna. Maybe a little bit before, maybe at the same time, maybe a little bit later, but it's around the same time. The tota says the following story about pray and let the rain come down. So he ded and rain came. The same way you d for the rain to come down to come down. Please ask the rain to what? To go away. He says, "Go ahead, please, and see if a person can stand in a in a dark corner. And he can put his legs where? In the river of which was the river that goes out from which means he says I will for the rain to stop. However, we don't really do it uh because we believe that God will never bring flood again. So what is missing here in this toa? Now this toa is and you remember the Mishna the first Mishna that we talked about. So what is missing in this tota? First is what is missing >> name >> the name just just second the entire background story that he went and he asked for rain and he just got drops and then the drops he became he got a storm and from the storm he got a gisha so that's all of that is what is omitted third >> they ask him to stop and he says I will but I am sure that God will not destroy the world with a flood. Which means did he or not? Probably not, right? And also the signs unlike what we saw in the Mishna, they talked about what if this rock where they whatever if there is a specific rock in that was basically covered by water. Here he's talking about what a different place and also what is missing Shimon Benett is not around. So now there is something very interesting here when you look at the tota. If I would ask you what is the common denominator between the tofa and the Mishna what would you say? >> Rain. What else? praying for >> praying for the rain to stop. This is really the concept here. Do you d for the rain to stop? The Mishna says what? You can't. You can't d if there is too much rain. And in both incidents, in the Mishna, he was asked to stop the rain. And he what did he do? He did it. And here he didn't. And not only that, he didn't in a way he even tried to teach the people an educational lesson which was what? God is not going to destroy the world anymore. So let's not do that. I know it's difficult. There is too much rain or there is a lot of rain but it's not a flood. So this is very interesting. And why I'm saying this is very interesting because of the following. What do you do with a figure that is definitely beloved by God, has tremendous powers, but at the same time is not exactly follow. >> So what do you do? You try to bring him closer or you try to what? To reject him. So the Mishna presented what Suzie said, "You reject him." Shiman Bened basically publicly in the Mishna said in a statement, "Look, if you are not horny, I will go after you. I will ostracize you. You're just lucky to be hon." But there is almost like a a very quiet a subtext that Shiman Bened is conveying which is what this is only because you are horny. But anyone else who is trying to imitate honey, I'm going to go after you. I will not allow it because we follow not magic or not righteousness and piety. We have the toa portrays or this I will just call him because I think we are talking about the same person as someone who what who is attuned and he does not den for the rain to stop. He entertained the idea. He doesn't tell them. He doesn't tell them hey look at the Mishna. The Mishna says what? However, he is trying to use the opportunity to educate them and basically not to violate. Now this is a very interesting thing because this same question happened when Don't go too far. Only 300 years. >> Oh, you're going many, many years ago. That just there was a new movement that came along. >> No, no. when comes along and start doing things that are not based on the talking about modern >> man 300 years ago. Yeah. When when you at 10:00 a.m. Okay. Whens man 857 are you doing something or not? No. So what do you do with many Jews who do that? That's the one of the first thing that they said. He says is really against what? He also had this tension between the people who follow cababala and people who don't exactly follow kabala intermediaries >> the what >> in other words we were talking about how we don't ask other people to pray for us but because >> oh not not don't generalize um but some of them when they go to the rabbi or to their rabbi okay the the requests are somewhat of and by the way at the beginning of theut the the significance and the importance of that sadik that through that sadik you can communicate with God was very much present in the theology of which was obviously a concern for nanasidim >> well that was because for the most part they were very ignorant >> and so there was one guy who knew and >> exactly But that was a problem right because when you would put too much belief in one person there is a problem. Okay. So [clears throat] self of responsibility the person itself he doesn't make any decisions. Whatever the record says that's what he does and he doesn't have to be responsible. >> Right? So that's the human psyche behind it. Like when you think about like why would you let someone else decide for you? So many people would say I don't want to take the responsibilities. So if it's a success it's great. If it's a failure at least I have someone to blame. >> But everyone is responsible. >> But yeah but everyone is responsible personal decision. >> You have you need to have one decision to not >> to live there. So that's that's itself you are in a way submitting yourself to the to the idea. But going back here we have a major problem and kazal you can see having some kind of an argument between the Mishna and the tota. How do we view how do we want to portray him as someone who does not really care about halah at all and he will do whatever he does because he is always beloved by God. By the way I'm not I don't want to say that he was not religious. He didn't follow halaka but in at times he just said that's the way I do it. You know, it's almost like a student in a in a school, he knows or she knows that what that they need to follow the rules and the policies. But also with children and parents, they know they have some rules and and policies. But nerd, right? We can cut corners. And why? Because there is love. And you know that even if they will be angry with you, at the end of the day, you are their child. with a student and a teacher it's very different. So the idea of honal you can see that there is a debate between the topha and the Mishna about the same time as the Mishna >> that's what I said toa was composed according to the academic scholarship is all little bit before same time or little after and really the truth is somewhere probably in between some of the tophot were probably were written before the Mishna written they were composed before the Mishna some of them were probably as almost like an explanation to the Mishna and some of them probably a little later and how do I know that because some of the names that are there are obviously after what we call for example now Rav is on the border okay so that's why we have those uh these three um aspects okay so what is that aishna is tota. No, it is what a brighta. What is a also same authority as the Mishna but it's it's outside which means it was not included in the codeex of all the Mishna. So now we have a brighta. So we had Mishna we had to we had Josephus and now we have a brighta and all of them are around the same area same time. So once it was almost the end of and there was no rain. Okay. So what do you do? You send a messenger. Sure. That's it's too late. But what did they do? They sent a delegation to hon. So we can open it up to different options. You can say the farmers union, right? >> Oh, doesn't say anything. But before the payment, who sent them? So maybe the farmers union. So the masses the people or >> king >> the king or the bathing >> the bing we said that chimon betta says it's a right now we look at you I always when I give this you I'm always I was surprised now I'm not we are so ingrained in the in our thinking if says is a sur obviously everyone agreed with him Exactly the opposite. Who said that everyone agreed with him? Maybe some people in the B didn't disagreed with Mach and they didn't agree with the halaka or maybe the was just information which means maybe it was not yet cemented that you don't do that. Meaning we live in an era that what oh we are so sure it's written gano right? It doesn't work like that. Until for the time that it took to be ingrained took time. We just live in the time that everything is already there. Okay. Let the rain come down. So, sorry. There was no rain. Now what is missing here? No is here but unlike the Mishna that he told them what oh bring the P ovens in and like he was sure that he's going to come down. He didn't say anything. He just eat and no rain. So he made like a whatever I I don't want to say a circle because we will see that it might be something else like did that I will stand guard and I will stand on matur is what is like a siege so it's a circle says tom So your children basically approached me because they know that I am like your child. So I'm taking an oath that I'm not moving from here until you will have mercy on your children and you will give them rain. So rain came down. Ah, what does he have now? >> Students. Interesting. Rebi. They address him as what? Rebi teacher. Now Rebei teacher is very interesting. >> Sorry. [laughter] >> It's um he says so they approach him as what? as rebi which is very interesting we didn't have it not in the Mishna not in the tota not in the Josephus so he has students he has followers and they tell him so they tell him something that I I will be very honest it's hard for me to explain because I don't really fully understand what exactly they are saying to But they are telling him that what that it seems to be that the rain comes just to quiet you down but it's not the rain that we need. But what does it mean? We will see you and we will not die. >> I would like to suggest not sure if I'm right or not. I'll be very honest is that they saw that in a way God is answering him. So he speaks to God and like God re quote unquote reveals himself to Hony and they feel that because they will in a way they experience that revelation that they think that what >> that they will die but it doesn't fit well to the sentence. Other suggestion is we saw that God is upset with you because he just gave the rain only what? To quiet you down. So with you he will be okay but with us he will be angry because you ask for something that is not appropriate. So maybe that option I'll be very clear. I don't have yet a full understanding of what does it mean. We solve. Yeah. Now, by the way, you can read it as with a question mark. Now, where is it taking from? Where is this idea comes from? Takum bum bum bum. You remember Shimjun? >> Yeah. >> You remember Manor follows his wife, walks after his wife. His wife tells him that she saw an angel. He told her to not to drink wine. He says, "Oh, why didn't you call me?" Well, you know, he comes again. So after that, Manor says to the person, "Look, I'll You want me to stop it? You want me to? Um, we can't do that. Sorry. >> They what? >> I have the book. [laughter] So, um, so they bring the koban and the angel is bringing the coban up and the fire comes down and and then the angel disappears. We will surely die because we saw God. Now this angel just told you what? That your wife is going to get pregnant and going to have a child. So you can die. That's exactly what his wife told him. Like husband, think for a second. If God wanted to kill us, he would not reveal himself to us. He will not tell us about what that we will have a child. And so what are you talking about? We're not going to die. But the fear was what? That's that's from here. So you need to understand by the way every time that you don't understand something inn go to yeah the revelation of God you cannot see God but the idea of it's so the idea is are telling him something So says that's not what I want. But I want what? Rain that will fill up the the ditches and the caves and everything. So they came up they came down like in an angry way. Every drop of rain was like a barrel. It seems to be that the rain comes down in order to destroy the world. So he says again to Hashem, that's not what I want. But I want what? Reign of blessing. Now obviously I never really fully understood why didn't he ask for it at the beginning. Just say what you want >> know what they wanted >> after the first time. Get it man like after you got just drop say God I don't want drops I want what >> I want train that will be beneficial for everything we need and God you know exactly what we need. No but it's like one after another. Okay. So everything went well. So everyone what ascended to the temple mount because of what of the raino who is amulo it's not there the first two times you have what amoid his students then someone else it might be the same messengers that shall it might be someone else but someone told him I'm rebi but they still what refer to him as rebi now here I didn't do a research but I will not be surprised that I will find a ga a version that does not say rebi and you know why because it's not talid meaning you need to have talidav in order to have a so maybe in the copy paste okay when the scribe copied he basically and then it says amulo without the talmidav but the copier whatever he just immediately put what that might be a mistake okay or there was a mistake that the talmidav is omitted exactly one of those two things I would not be surprised to find something So, the same way you d for it to come down, please for them to go away. What does he say to them? I have a maso. I have a tradition that we do not daven when you have too much rain. You do for all different types of things, but if there is too much rain, even though it's damaging, you don't d for the rain to go away. Rega is that it comes from the in the you remember Meaning if there are troubles, afflictions, revelations, whatever it is, you go ahead and cry out and you warn people. But if there is too much rain, you don't. Now what we saw in all the other stories which means in the Mishna and in the tota is what that honey did for the rain to go away or he told them look I would but there's no need because God was not going to bring flood here. He says to them what? No, I can't do that. So now Hony is a some some kind of a hybrid, right? He is a person who is so close to God and can tell God please give rain, but at the same time he's also what? Aist. He follows the Do you remember what we spoke about like half an hour ago? Kazal have a problem of where to position Hony. Where do I put him in what in what square? And here this brighta basically puts him well in between he follows ala. And by the way, we will see if if Shiman Bened has something to say because in a way is doing whatever he what he was supposed to do. Now in terms of asking for rain, it might be a bit you know too much but he's not asking for the rain to stop. >> Excuse me. Is there a time when you stop for any? >> Yeah. After Yeah. Yeah. So for that he didn't follow. Yeah. So even though we don't d if there is too much rain please bring me what? And and ask for what? For thanksgiving offering. So they brought for him what? And a thanksgiving offering. So he leaned his two hands on on him, master of the world. Your people that you took out from these people are little difficult people. When they have too much, they can't handle it. When they have too bad, too little, they they can't handle it. When you are angry with them, they can't do any I mean they they need your help. You gave them good and blessings. So may it be your will that the rain will stop and there will be a blessing in this world. Immediately the wind came, the clouds disappeared, the sun came out. Just imagine that that's happening when I finish. and the people were so happy they went to the field and they brought mushrooms and I don't know what else. Okay, so this is an interesting ending. So he basically says to them, I can't den for what for the rain to stop but >> but let me handle it. Right? So I'm bringing an thanksgiving offering and while I'm giving the thanksgiving offering to thank Hashem for all the goodness, I also will say what? Stop the rain, please. the people can't handle it. So, does he violate Allah or not? Sometimes yes. >> Okay. So, there is sometimes yes, sometimes no. But I also believe and that's what we're going to do with um when we revisit it next week is that we need to look at the prayer itself also and look for some clues. He talks about your people that you took out from Egypt. We're talking about the first century now. Egypt was long time ago. Like why do you need to say that? Just say what? This is your people. That's a B. It does not bring any proofs to whatever he says. Oh God, if you are too angry with them, they couldn't handle it. When you brought too much good, they can't handle it. Can you give me a a story or two? And the third one is the entire description of the wind blew and the clouds disappeared and the sun came out and the people went to the field. So they went down from the temple mount to the fields [snorts] and collected what? >> Mushrooms. Who cares? mushrooms grow >> immediately after the rain. I know. >> I know. >> But who cares? >> It's like they move back. >> Yeah, of course. >> That's not the end. That's that's the issue. But what what's the what's the point? What's the point that they were able to collect from the field like from the ground itself? So the rain mash disappeared in a second. I think it says the condition returned to normal. >> The what? >> The condition returned to normal. >> So everything went back to normal. That's quick. >> Mushrooms have been there before. >> I don't know. I have zero understanding in agriculture. So uh we will revisit next week to finish up this bright and to understand a little bit more about