Chasidim Rishonim & The World of Halacha (Pt III) | Rabbi Shai FInkelstein | January 6th 2026

for the 2025 2026 academic year in memory of Mel and Sylvia David by their families. Okay, we continue with ourim, okay, with our righteous people or pious people. And we are on page uh four. Page four. Okay. So uh the last thing we saw that uh some of this basically created some kind of personal suffering for themselves before they die. So they will be clean and pure foray. And we obviously we saw some kind of criticism on it. And um now let's see page four the second paragraph. Everyone has it. Oh let's put it like that. Anyone who has the source sheet it's on page four second source. It's really impressive. So this what some groups they had like a little. So you had what I will call probably like groups of what of people who will do some will go to to Shiva house. Okay. There will be like a WhatsApp group. Okay. Shiva house people. Shiva house people and then betish which is what katan probably weddings. What is Ben? >> So some people will say Brit and some people would say what and some people will say even what >> one of the early sources which is very interesting for Schlom is because if it was a Brit was not say Shauva it should say what or Brit everyone calls it a Brit. So what and so it should be so what is there also that some people some not all but some interpretation says it's what it's which is by itself it's an interesting uh custom where it came from exactly and why and all of it so not for today so if you have you don't have enough people and you need people where in a wedding or in bet so what do you So you go first to the wedding by the way. It's always like that. So whatever is what is that when you collect the bones and you reberry them. So then what do you do? So you go first to go first to the Shiva house rather than to a wedding because it says it's better to go what to a Shiva house rather than to go to a wedding. Why? When you go and you visit the Shiva house, take the lessons from the deceased and from the stories that you hear and you will make your life better. So why why do I why did I bring this source? You have what everyone else will do and then you have what the and it's interesting that theim for the second time here are associated first and foremost with what >> things with death >> with death >> and the what >> the person who wrote this whoever was >> said it is said that better to go. But where where is that? >> Oh, that's oh that's however what does it mean? It might be that was talking about what a first of the year party you know January 1st. Okay. Um maybe he was not talking about a wedding. So that's a different thing you know to go to or to go to a party. But for that you don't need. Okay. Okay. >> What about looking at first the how many people are going to this one and how many people might be going to that one. In other words, if the wedding is going to be this gigantic. >> No. No. So here they're talking about a place that they need the people. It's not that they have enough. It's when you need the people here or there and without these people you will not have something in Bishop groups that came out in the 1790s were looking for happiness. This is different. That's the time of the we're not talking about the new. Sometimes you will take a name and the only difference and the only similarity is just the name but nothing to do with the content. Yeah. Yeah. >> It's logically should go to a wedding. A big you have a week. a wedding you have an hour. >> I don't know what weddings you're talking about. This is only an hour. But yes, >> hour is only when you wait for them. But >> I know I'm joking. Um but that's true. But but you talking from the perspective of >> Yeah. Like that is a mitzvah that if you're not going to do now, it will be over. Very good. Okay. But that's the that's the says the I think we should publish it. It's already published by the way but some people just skip it. It's a great praise for a person who what who is being he sustains himself from his own productivity meaning he goes to work. And that was what the the behavior of the who is he talking about. So if you think about some of the tanim some of the tanim you have their name and you have their occupation that's just one papa who was an amora he was basically a merchant of wine he was by the way they were very very wealthy all the papos all the dynasty of the papa papa all of them were very very wealthy okay you had others who were basically had an occupation and they were able to be tremendous scholars and at the same time also walking. So here the Rambam used the word but not necessarily about what the we were talking about. He's talking about just so he gets all the honor and the and the benefits in this world and then the world to come because it says in the fruit of your efforts or your labor you should eat and then you should be praised and okay so it's you're being praised And you you have all the benefits here and in the world to come, says the Rambam. Okay, we will get to the in a minute, but he says that you have the right to excommunicate someone who spoke against you. However, this is not a a suggested behavior for why because it seems to be that what that you think too highly on yourself, right? And therefore, he says it's better for you to ignore what the people say about you. Just do what you think you should do. And then the Rambam says the This was the way that would behave. Someone can bedmouth them and they will what? >> We'll move on. Not only that they will not react, they will also what? >> Will forgive him. So, so it's very interesting. So, what do we have here? We have the deen if was um slandered by someone he can basically what excommunicate him says the raam it's not recommended it's better not to and also the that's what they did and also there is another level and what's the other level not only that I'm not going to react to you not only that I'm not going to excommunicate you I'm going to also what forgive you >> still talking about here as opposed to >> so who are this we will need to understand okay I bring this because he used the word and here there's a bit of ambiguity is he talking about like that we were talking about or talking about all the rabbis who were like that before yes >> differentiate from and some things this is much more much more I think it's very different than whether you go and which you should go to first. Oh no no no again we are not talking about of today >> the only we were talking about we saw few things about this there was a concentration in davening that was one second was damages that's between Benad what they did was much extra and much more than all the others and that's what we were basically talking about is the are creating another layer in hala in normal in normative hala or they created their own halaka which created an issue for the >> reb something uh they're doing within themselves. >> Yeah, but agree but I'm I'm sorry I I I need to clarify the Rambam used the word and I will repeat it again. We are not sure who is he talking about and that's the problem that we have. Okay, another one. So we know starts when >> at night and you eat obviously before the fast starts and the twilight it's also it's like also you have what okay so you can't eat meat and you can't drink wine but he can drink some kind of wine which is not considered so much as wine. Okay. some kind of laws regarding the menu that you should have when he continues. If you have your meal before midday, even though you stop and you make take a break, you can eat at that meal whatever you want. And if So it's being pushed to you can eat whatever you want. That's you can eat meat. You can drink wine. Okay. Look at what the Rambam says in page five. So what did we say? If Shab falls on Shabbat and it's being pushed to Shabbat on Shabbat itself you can what? Eat meat, drink wine, everything. Why? This is for all of us people who can't uh afflict ourselves too much. But if you're talking about pious people, they had a totally different approach. They will take what? A dry bread with salt and he will put it dip it in the water. He sits between an oven and a and a stove. He will sit between the oven and the stove and he will eat this little dry bread with water and he will cry and he will be like someone who really lost his relative. No, that's not Shabbat. That's not on Shabbat. That's just during the week. But that's what you're supposed to do. everyone. Oh, he says the Ramba my guest testify on himself. He says we will never eat on anything that it's cooked. We will only eat what dry things. So basically we try to imitate not fully but to try to imitate whom? So again we see in itself what this is for everyone this is and you know what push yourself to be a bit more like here the becomes what a mother meaning you need to try to imitate them which is very interesting. One more which means that inappropriate sexual relationship. So he says or prohibited so and some of those great scholars they praise themselves that they never looked at any of their private places. And one of them did not even look at his wife because he concentrated only on what? On holy things and in order to what to remove any thoughts from his mind. So he never even looked at his wife. Okay. That's very interesting. Not I don't even say very nice. It's very interesting. Why is that very interesting? A because we know that you cannot marry anyone before you what you see her. Okay. Right. So that's one one thing. [clears throat] B what do you mean? There's no prohibition to look at your wife. Okay. And C which is maybe even uh more interesting is why would the Rambam put it here? >> Okay. Any suggestions? >> Question. Why would the Rambam even mention it? It's you know when you when you learn the Talmud. So okay so there are I know few examples mash few examples of people who were very very maked on let's call it if you call it from this few examples you're going to put it in here it's not that what you need to do but he mentions it. Yes. >> Come right after what you just said about >> no different to go from maybe we should do something like the to say this does not seem to >> but that's so that's a different thing. Yes. >> Why does he say should we do that or not? Oh >> no he does not. He just But he influence what something external to the Jews um Christianity but I mean he was in >> Islam. Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. He was in Muslim countries. >> Yeah. >> But I'm just wondering if there was that that [snorts] strain or that thought sort of out there. >> Okay. Um I'll put you on hold for that. I'll get back to it in a minute. I think when somebody is common sense and they're about to do something that's not so great, but they they remember that, oh, there even people who didn't even do A, B, and C. Okay, I'm going backwards. I'm gonna come back to where I >> Okay. So the question Yeah. Michael >> what about I don't remember the exact quote. >> Yeah that's the Ramban. We spoke about it last week or two weeks ago when we brought the Ramban. Okay. So we spoke about is that like an external thing for the for our judicial system or it's it's it's integral part. So we spoke about it a bit but we can say that the Rambam put it there so you will know what can people do does not mean that you need to do it but you need to know that there is and this is where my problem is. The Rambam put it there in order to show you the ideal or just to show you what people can do and you need to find yourself somewhere with what between halaka and this example. Now the question of how the Rambam s viewed that example that's a very interesting question which means that do you think the Rambam viewed this example as the ideal which means if you asking Mrs. the Rambam if you can do it never look at your wife or the Rambam will never say that now you spoke about Islam now I don't know exactly how um Muslim ladies dressed up on that in the 12th century um I would assume that they were you know by the way just as a side side note it's interesting the evolution in the Islamic um stringencies regarding women at towards the end of Muhammad's life. The one to push for more restrictions against women was Ali, not Muhammad. Muhammad had more than one wife. You can just imagine. He took them to war. They would go with him to war and they probably did not even cover their hair. And Ali >> who didn't like it, he start pushing more and more restrictions with one exception to the prophet. The prophet can do whatever he wants because he's the prophet, but for all of us, we're going to want to put more and more restrictions on women. And um so again, I'm not an expert on Islam. That's what I can tell you from what I uh studied. But um it was not always like that for women. By the way, also in in Europe we know that in some countries the status of women was much higher than the others and some of them were not as good. For example, and I for my research I know that in Germany um most of the women in Germany, Jewish women and also not Jewish women uh their status was much higher than in England, France, even France and other places. Um, one of the most famous examples that women in Germany were at least were viewed on a higher status is what? Something that you all know. I'll give you a hint. Pesashimu >> regarding leaning that in Germany there are nashimuot important women. That's one example. So there's a second example, jewelry. I gave this sh once. You are not allowed to wear I'm going to get into troubles. I see a lot of women here. Um according to the Mishna, you are not allowed to go out with jewelry on Shabbat. Why? Because you might want another lady will come and say, "Oh my gosh, this is a beautiful neck. Oh, beautiful necklace. Here you go. You can see it." And then you will carry it for a without. Okay. But since that time since the Bishna women would go out with jewelry. So some of the rishim basically says don't even start with them. The language is please don't get offended. Okay? Women are a separate nation, separate group. You don't deal with them. They're not going to listen to you. Um and uh and some people say value better not to say anything because they're going to valid it. However, many of the German says that our women can wear jewelry and why because they kash and they will not take off their jewelry. So if someone will come and say oh Mrs. So and so this is beautiful um necklace this woman will say thank you so much and that's it. and she will not take it off and she will not show it to you. And therefore the reason for the prohibition and the Mishna does not apply anymore. But that's mostly in Germany. I have another proof, not for now because it's long. um not a proof like another example I will say of uh of um of a story that basically illustrates the fact that in Germany and by the way not only the Jewish women also the non-Jewish women were perceived to be in a higher status than in many other places. Okay. So now let's talk a little bit about some of their decrees of the soim. >> You didn't answer the question of why he's bringing these. >> I don't know. I said I have two options. >> Option number one, he brought it as a model and he basically says to you, you should inspire to be there. >> I think it's a model of extremism. >> I agree. And that's the question that we have here. Do we see what they did as a model that it's very hard to accomplish but it's something that you need to aspire to be or no no no it's just being brought to tell you what's the extreme extreme and please don't be there find yourself somewhere in between >> it does not say it's very ambiguous um by the way look I think this is uh you know this is something uh that we all struggle with do you look at something that someone does which is you know most stringent or whatever. Do you look at that as what as okay this is my model and I will try to get there or you say to yourself my gosh this is a mach okay this is what you can be if you go to two to to the extreme okay so I think part of it is subjective and part of it now the question is what do we need to do okay so some of the decrees of the says what? There is a parable to a son who basically his father beat his beat him up and the son they have no clue why he's being punished. So the father after he gave him a little bit of a patch, he says to him, "Now go ahead and do what I asked you to do for the last few days and you just dismissed it. You totally ignored me." So says that all those thousands of people that lost their lives at King David's battles is because they what they didn't demand to build the beta mdash. Interesting. And we will talk a little bit about the history in a second. He says, "If you want to tell me that the soldiers of David died because they didn't ask for beta mikdash, even more so us, we saw the beta mikdash. It was destroyed in our days. And if we not going to pray and ask for the building of the beta mikdash, definitely we going to v to be punished." Okay. Who says it? What do we know about was the of So we also know that was wanted by the Romans. We also know that and we also know that what uh that we don't know exactly how old he was. We know that Rabaka was murdered at 135. Rabishiman Bhai I don't know how old he was when he was the student of Rabaka. have been, you know, at the age of 16. I have no idea. But he basically talks about what >> the what? >> Yeah, the cert right now. >> 18 [laughter] 25. Um, so the thing is is what is that we don't know exactly what the time is, but we do know that Rabim wants to create what? Some kind of a reminder for the beta mikdash. He probably reacted to what? to what the Jews are very good at survival. The beta mikdash was basically destroyed in their days. And probably a generation later, Jews basically concentrated on what? >> Building their lives, not necessarily the beta mikdash. If you remember when went out from the cave, I'm not saying that that's the same time, but when he went out of the cave with his son and he saw people do what? Walk. And you know why they had to walk? because everyone needs to work a and b they had to pay taxes to the Romans. So they had to what to try to do their job and his son couldn't understand how can they do that right so God told him what >> and go back to the cave so the idea is is that is trying to create what some kind of a mechanism that you will still remember the beta mikdash now I will just say one more thing I have no idea where he got the idea that king David saw soldiers who were killed because they didn't ask for the beta mikdash. No idea. I will tell you that the gar says that at the time of no one was killed and why because there was no so even though there was when they are united even if they worship idols they will not die. But King David's there was lash from D and others and therefore they were killed. So that's what the Garra says. Where got this idea? I've I really truly have no idea. Yes. >> What stage did you have to build anyway? >> No idea. Yeah, I have no idea. Where is the s Oh, sorry. Where is the source for? Yeah. Okay. Oh, now we are not here in the aboutdash. We are about therefore created what? An enactment, a decree. Who established the fact that we need to D three times a day? I think right. Okay. And they also created some kind of when do we say that? When do we say that? and but and why because there there was and this is why we for what fordash but during the day we during the week we don't say that they were the one to what to establish the idea of which I thought that it was that's what the game says Okay. So basically what this says basically says that what did they do? They understood that what that if you don't d for the building of the beta mikdash god forbid something bad can happen. So they wanted to protect the Jewish people and therefore they created this right. So here again we are we're not sure who are this but we do see that they make a decree for >> everyone not only for their group but rather for what? For all the people. Okay. So now until now if I would ask you what do you think about what would you say >> extremely >> some of them you will say it's really extreme okay uh some of you will say what >> now when you say extreme you know what let me clarify something with you say extremist let me ask you a little bit of a loaded question extremist in the realm of alaka or it's outside of the realm of nothing No comment for now. >> Depends. It depends. >> Okay. Some of the things that they do, we can call it extra careful. Some of the things that they do is extra mach a bit and some of it is what is something that we might aspire to or it's okay. I mean to say bonim it's not a terrible thing to say. It's a constant reminder. It's something good. So now I would like to study with you. We'll start today and we'll continue next week. The first confrontation between and this is obviously will open up the discussion regarding the tension between and not our okay from the 17th century 18th century and we will talk about it but at the time of the formation of created a tremendous tension and what do I talk about? Okay, so let's see the first one. Okay, so every time that there is sorrow, pain, afflictions, tribulations on the community, what do you do? You war on the people and you start dvening and everything besides one thing. Too much rain. You remember those days that we had rain 30 mm every day. You don't do even though it might be dangerous. It can create flooding and you know we saw that it's very dangerous. Still you don't do anything about it. Okay. You all know the story but I'm asking you to please read the story with fresh eyes. So people came to we don't know who right please pray that we will have rain. So he told them what bring the pes into the house so they will not melt when the rain is going to come. So he was so sure he's going to bring the rain. Also, it seems to be that if he's talking already about pes or whatever that means it was around time unless you are really into but if not it was probably around so and there is no rain ma so what did he do whatever that means we'll talk about it but let's say he put a circle we'll just take the simple understanding for now. So he stood in this little circle and he says what? Master of the universe, your children. So they approached me. What is Ben? Benite like part of your household. So I'm I take an oath. I'm not moving from here until you what? You will have compassion on your children and you will bring rain. Okay. So we have a little bit of rain. So I didn't ask for little rain. I asked for what? For a lot of rain. Rain. That what that will fill up all the all the caves and all the ditches and everything. Okay. So they came heavy. I didn't ask for that. I asked for what? For blessed rain. Okay. Good rain. So they came down as they should until what is basically what went to which is little higher because the rain probably created some kind of flooding in their streets. So we got to what to a situation of [snorts] too much rain. According to the Mishna, what do you do when you have too much rain? >> Nothing. You just say thank you and you move on. The same way you d for the rain to come. Please d for what? Rain. Rain go away. You remember that song? So you would expect Hony to tell them what? No, >> but the other one was natural rain. This only came because of this. So it's a different situation. >> Yeah, but the outcome is the same. It's too much rain. >> But >> but just one second. What you would expect to say what >> must speak. Don't don't ask me to to do that because it's against go ahead and see if this stone rock we'll talk about that later if it was which means if the water covered it and if it's if it does so I'll pray for it now so the head of the Sanhedrin sends a message to and he says the following if you were not I would excommunicate you understand by the way in ancient times excommunication means what it's almost like a death penalty no one talks to you don't get alra no one makes business with you and when you are so dependent on the Jewish community you're basically head. But what can I do to you? But what can I do? You are like a child to God. And I don't want you what? To make God angry with me. So I can't really do anything to you. But I totally disagree with you. Now let's stop here for a second. Oh wow. Okay. Let's stop here for a second. We see something interesting. There is no rain. And what do they do? They go to and they ask for rain. Now we said it was around time, right? >> Around pes time. You don't ask for rain anymore. So >> that's also for I don't know if you remember but back in we already start saying what anenu for rain because we didn't have rain but then you stop it because you don't need rain after after before before pes. So that's itself it's a little bit of a strange thing that they came to ask for rain before pes that's a b there is a process when there's no rain what do you do >> at the beginning only the scholars and then the others and then everyone and you take theesh you take it to the street you put epher mle you put ashes on the nasi and the arbadin and you pray and you pray and if there is No rain, what do you do? And rain and rain. If there is no rainf if the last period of rain of asking rain is gone, you don't ask for rain and then you need to deal with the consequences. But you see that the people went to Hony and says what? >> We won't rain. Which is interesting. A B after there was too much rain they came to him and and told him what >> that's too much so stop stop it and then Shimra says to him what I would excommunicate you why why would you excommunicate him so now I'm going to open it up for options that we will continue next week with option number one Shiman basically says to Hani what you did was against Halaka The alaka says what? There is a way to ask for rain. There is a time to ask for rain and definitely you can't ask for too much rain to stop. Therefore, you violated alaka publicly in in front of everyone. You should be excommunicated. Option number one. Option number two. What you did? You honey basically diminishing the establishment, the halakic establishment. And why we the rabbis are trying to create system. There is a bathing and the bathing says what you do. What you do hony is an individual piety that helps you to be like God's child who listens to you like a father to his child. But basically you cut corners because the idea of filot and fasting for rain is to basically tell the people what >> it depends on you. You need to do chuva and as a reaction to your chuva, you will get rain. In a way, what hony does is come to the magician and I will make the magic for you. So you don't need to do anything. You can continue to do whatever you want. Just come to Hony and Hony will take care of you. said Shimon Benedak the outcome might be good that there is rain but the process is terrible and what they will do when there is no >> you are basically destroying the Jewish people so that's second option third option you contradict publicly what we are trying to do which is what a misguided. Everyone will follow one thing. If you start to do your own little thing, people a will be confused and b their admiration, respect to the establishment will be the rabbi says that that's what you need to do. Yes, but I can I'm very friendly with honey. Okay, he'll take care of me. So the thing is is that it can be very dangerous. So now what do I try to portray here? The tension between what what I will call aic decisor Shim Bened who tried to create some kind of an organized religion versus who basically for him for at least from what we see here structure and decision does not really apply to him. Not even once he says to the people whoever the people who approached him rea stop maybe you need to think or rethink about your request or maybe you need to do chuva let's do chuva together clue and also and this is the last thing I will say when hony told them at least according to this Mishna bring back the ovens he was So sure that the rain will come. There is a little bit of what? >> Little bit of an arrogance here. And to his disappointment, just imagine he dos and what? >> Nothing happened the first time. It took three times in order to get the right frame, which is interesting. Is that a sign from heaven that heaven does not approve? Okay, all those questions and more we will do next week and what we will do is that we will try to find out who is this hony who is >> oh okay is an interesting fellow and we will do a little bit of a research of who is hon after we will finish with Hony not like finish hon we'll finish with the story whatever you thought about hon before. My hope is that you will not anymore, but you will have an enriched perspective on hony. That's for today.