0:00 / 0:00
Chasidim Rishonim & The World of Halacha (Pt III) | Rabbi Shai FInkelstein | January 6th 2026
53 views
www.ouisrael.org facebook.com/ouisrael #OUisrael #torah #judaism #torahlectures
Comments(0)
Transcript
Auto-generated transcript. Not time-synced to the video.
for the 2025 2026 academic year in
memory of
Mel and Sylvia David
by their families.
Okay, we continue
with ourim,
okay, with our righteous people or pious
people. And we are on page
uh four. Page four.
Okay. So uh the last thing we saw that
uh some of this basically created some
kind of personal suffering for
themselves before they die. So they will
be clean and pure foray. And we
obviously we saw some kind of criticism
on it. And um now let's see page four
the second paragraph.
Everyone has it. Oh let's put it like
that. Anyone who has the source sheet
it's on page four second source.
It's really
impressive.
So this what some groups they had like a
little.
So you had what I will call probably
like groups of what of people who will
do
some will go to to Shiva house. Okay.
There will be like a WhatsApp group.
Okay. Shiva house people. Shiva house
people and then betish which is what
katan probably weddings. What is Ben?
>> So some people will say Brit and some
people would say what
and some people will say even what
>> one of the early sources which is very
interesting for Schlom is
because if it was a Brit was not say
Shauva it should say what
or Brit everyone calls it a Brit. So
what and
so it should be so what is there also
that some people some not all but some
interpretation says it's what it's which
is by itself it's an interesting uh
custom where it came from exactly and
why and all of it so not for today so
if you have you don't have enough people
and you need people where in a wedding
or in bet so what do you
So you go first to the wedding by the
way. It's always like that.
So whatever is what is
that when you collect the bones and you
reberry them. So then what do you do?
So you go first to
go first to the Shiva house rather than
to a wedding
because it says
it's better to go what to a Shiva house
rather than to go to a wedding. Why?
When you go and you visit the Shiva
house, take the lessons from the
deceased and from the stories that you
hear and you will make your life better.
So why why do I why did I bring this
source? You have what everyone else will
do and then you have what the and it's
interesting that theim for the second
time here are associated first and
foremost with what
>> things with death
>> with death
>> and
the what
>> the person who wrote this whoever was
>> said it is said that better to go. But
where where is that?
>> Oh, that's oh that's
however what does it mean? It might be
that was talking about what a first of
the year party you know January 1st.
Okay. Um maybe he was not talking about
a wedding. So that's a different thing
you know to go to or to go to a party.
But for that you don't need. Okay.
Okay.
>> What about looking at first the how many
people are going to this one and how
many people might be going to that one.
In other words, if the wedding is going
to be this gigantic.
>> No. No. So here they're talking about a
place that they need the people. It's
not that they have enough. It's when you
need the people here or there and
without these people you will not have
something in Bishop
groups that came out in the 1790s were
looking for happiness. This is
different.
That's the time of the we're not talking
about the new.
Sometimes you will take a name and the
only difference and the only similarity
is just the name but nothing to do with
the content. Yeah. Yeah.
>> It's logically should go to a wedding.
A big you have a week. a wedding you
have an hour.
>> I don't know what weddings you're
talking about. This is only an hour. But
yes,
>> hour is only when you wait for them. But
>> I know I'm joking. Um but that's true.
But but you talking from the perspective
of
>> Yeah. Like that is a mitzvah that if
you're not going to do now, it will be
over. Very good. Okay. But that's the
that's the
says the
I think we should publish it. It's
already published by the way but some
people just skip it.
It's a great praise for a person who
what who is being he sustains himself
from his own productivity meaning he
goes to work.
And that was what
the the behavior of the
who is he talking about.
So if you think about some of the tanim
some of the tanim you have their name
and you have their occupation
that's just one papa who was an amora he
was basically a merchant of wine he was
by the way they were very very wealthy
all the papos
all the dynasty of the papa papa all of
them were very very wealthy okay you had
others who were basically had an
occupation and they were able to be
tremendous scholars and at the same time
also walking. So here the Rambam used
the word
but not necessarily about what the we
were talking about. He's talking about
just
so he gets all the honor and the and the
benefits in this world and then the
world to come
because it says in
the fruit of your efforts or your labor
you should eat and then you should be
praised and
okay so it's you're being praised And
you you have all the benefits here and
in the world to come, says the Rambam.
Okay, we will get to the in a minute,
but he says that you have the right to
excommunicate someone who spoke against
you. However, this is not a a suggested
behavior for why because it seems to be
that what that you think too highly on
yourself, right? And therefore, he says
it's better for you to ignore what the
people say about you. Just do what you
think you should do. And then the Rambam
says the
This was the way that would behave.
Someone can bedmouth them and they will
what?
>> We'll move on.
Not only that they will not react,
they will also what?
>> Will forgive him. So,
so it's very interesting. So, what do we
have here? We have the deen
if
was um slandered by someone he can
basically what excommunicate him says
the raam it's not recommended it's
better not to and also the that's what
they did and also there is another level
and what's the other level not only that
I'm not going to react to you not only
that I'm not going to excommunicate you
I'm going to also what forgive you
>> still talking about here as opposed to
>> so who are this we will need to
understand okay I bring this because he
used the word and here there's a bit of
ambiguity is he talking about like that
we were talking about or talking about
all the rabbis who were like that before
yes
>> differentiate from
and
some things this is much more
much more I think it's very different
than whether you go and which you should
go to first.
Oh no no no again we are not talking
about of today
>> the only we were talking about we saw
few things about this there was a
concentration in davening that was one
second was damages that's between Benad
what they did was much extra and much
more than all the others and that's what
we were basically talking about is the
are creating another
layer in hala in normal in normative
hala or they created their own halaka
which created an issue for the
>> reb
something uh they're doing within
themselves.
>> Yeah, but agree but I'm I'm sorry I I I
need to clarify the Rambam used the word
and I will repeat it again. We are not
sure who is he talking about and that's
the problem that we have. Okay, another
one.
So we know starts when
>> at night
and you eat obviously before the fast
starts
and the twilight it's also it's like
also you have what
okay
so you can't eat meat and you can't
drink wine
but he can drink some kind of wine which
is not considered so much as wine.
Okay. some kind of
laws regarding the menu that you should
have when
he continues.
If you have your meal before midday,
even though you stop and you make take a
break, you can eat at that meal whatever
you want.
And if
So it's being pushed to
you can eat whatever you want. That's
you can eat meat. You can drink wine.
Okay.
Look at what the Rambam says in page
five.
So what did we say? If Shab falls on
Shabbat and it's being pushed to Shabbat
on Shabbat itself you can what? Eat
meat, drink wine, everything. Why?
This is for all of us people who can't
uh afflict ourselves too much.
But if you're talking about pious
people, they had a totally different
approach.
They will take what? A dry bread with
salt
and he will put it dip it in the water.
He sits between an oven and a and a
stove.
He will sit between the oven and the
stove and he will eat this little dry
bread with water and he will cry and he
will be like someone who really lost his
relative.
No, that's not Shabbat. That's not on
Shabbat. That's just during the week.
But that's what you're supposed to do.
everyone. Oh,
he says the Ramba my guest testify on
himself.
He says we will never eat on anything
that it's cooked. We will only eat what
dry things. So basically we try to
imitate not fully but to try to imitate
whom?
So again we see in itself what this is
for everyone this is
and you know what push yourself to be a
bit more like here the becomes what a
mother meaning you need to try to
imitate them which is very interesting.
One more
which means that inappropriate sexual
relationship. So he says
or prohibited
so and some of those great scholars they
praise themselves that they never looked
at any of their private places.
And one of them did not even look at his
wife
because he concentrated only on what? On
holy things and in order to what to
remove any thoughts from his mind. So he
never even looked at his wife. Okay.
That's very interesting. Not I don't
even say very nice. It's very
interesting. Why is that very
interesting? A because we know that you
cannot marry anyone before you what you
see her. Okay.
Right. So that's one one thing.
[clears throat] B
what do you mean? There's no prohibition
to look at your wife. Okay. And C which
is maybe even uh more interesting is why
would the Rambam put it here?
>> Okay. Any suggestions?
>> Question. Why would the Rambam even
mention it? It's you know when you when
you learn the Talmud. So okay so there
are I know few examples mash few
examples of people who were very very
maked on let's call it if you call it
from this few examples you're going to
put it in here it's not that what you
need to do but he mentions it. Yes.
>> Come right after what you just said
about
>> no different
to go from maybe we should do something
like the to say this does not seem to
>> but that's so that's a different thing.
Yes.
>> Why does he say should we do that or
not? Oh
>> no he does not. He just But he influence
what something external to the Jews um
Christianity but I mean he was in
>> Islam. Yeah. Exactly.
>> Yeah. He was in Muslim countries.
>> Yeah.
>> But I'm just wondering if there was that
that [snorts] strain or that thought
sort of out there.
>> Okay. Um I'll put you on hold for that.
I'll get back to it in a minute. I think
when somebody is common sense and
they're about to do something that's not
so great, but they they remember that,
oh, there even people who
didn't even do A, B, and C. Okay, I'm
going backwards. I'm gonna come back to
where I
>> Okay. So the question Yeah. Michael
>> what about
I don't remember the exact quote.
>> Yeah that's the Ramban. We spoke about
it last week or two weeks ago when we
brought the Ramban.
Okay. So we spoke about is that like an
external thing for the for our judicial
system or it's it's it's integral part.
So we spoke about it a bit but we can
say that the Rambam put it there so you
will know what can people do does not
mean that you need to do it but
you need to know that there is and this
is where my problem is. The Rambam put
it there in order to show you the ideal
or just to show you what people can do
and you need to find yourself somewhere
with what between halaka and
this example. Now the question of how
the Rambam s viewed that example that's
a very interesting question which means
that do you think the Rambam viewed this
example as the ideal which means if you
asking Mrs. the Rambam if you can do it
never look at your wife
or the Rambam will never say that now
you spoke about Islam now I don't know
exactly how um Muslim ladies dressed up
on that in the 12th century um I would
assume that they were you know by the
way just as a side side note it's
interesting the evolution in the Islamic
um stringencies regarding women
at towards the end of Muhammad's life.
The one to push for more restrictions
against women was
Ali,
not Muhammad. Muhammad had more than one
wife. You can just imagine. He took them
to war. They would go with him to war
and they probably did not even cover
their hair.
And Ali
>> who didn't like it, he start pushing
more and more restrictions with one
exception
to the prophet. The prophet can do
whatever he wants because he's the
prophet, but for all of us, we're going
to want to put more and more
restrictions on women.
And um so again, I'm not an expert on
Islam. That's what I can tell you from
what I uh studied. But um it was not
always like that for women. By the way,
also in in Europe we know that in some
countries the status of women was much
higher than the others and some of them
were not as good. For example, and I for
my research I know that in Germany
um most of the women in Germany, Jewish
women and also not Jewish women uh their
status was much higher than in England,
France, even France and other places.
Um, one of the most famous examples that
women in Germany were at least were
viewed on a higher status is what?
Something that you all know.
I'll give you a hint. Pesashimu
>> regarding
leaning that in Germany there are
nashimuot important women. That's one
example. So there's a second example,
jewelry.
I gave this sh once.
You are not allowed to wear I'm going to
get into troubles. I see a lot of women
here. Um according to the Mishna, you
are not allowed to go out with jewelry
on Shabbat. Why?
Because you might want another lady will
come and say, "Oh my gosh, this is a
beautiful neck. Oh, beautiful necklace.
Here you go. You can see it." And then
you will carry it for a without. Okay.
But
since that time since the Bishna women
would go out with jewelry. So some of
the rishim basically says
don't even start with them.
The language is please don't get
offended.
Okay? Women are a separate nation,
separate group. You don't deal with
them. They're not going to listen to
you. Um and uh and some people say value
better not to say anything because
they're going to valid it. However,
many of the German says that our women
can wear jewelry and why because they
kash and they will not take off their
jewelry. So if someone will come and say
oh Mrs. So and so this is beautiful um
necklace this woman will say thank you
so much
and that's it. and she will not take it
off and she will not show it to you. And
therefore the reason for the prohibition
and the Mishna does not apply anymore.
But that's mostly in Germany. I have
another proof, not for now because it's
long. um
not a proof like another example I will
say of uh of um of a story that
basically illustrates the fact that in
Germany and by the way not only the
Jewish women also the non-Jewish women
were perceived to be in a higher status
than in many other places. Okay.
So now let's talk a little bit about
some of their decrees of the
soim.
>> You didn't answer the question of why
he's bringing these.
>> I don't know. I said I have two options.
>> Option number one, he brought it as a
model and he basically says to you, you
should inspire to be there.
>> I think it's a model of extremism.
>> I agree. And that's the question that we
have here. Do we see what they did as a
model that it's very hard to accomplish
but it's something that you need to
aspire to be or no no no it's just being
brought to tell you what's the extreme
extreme and please don't be there find
yourself somewhere in between
>> it does not say it's very ambiguous
um by the way look I think this is uh
you know this is something uh that we
all struggle with do you look at
something that someone does which is you
know most stringent or whatever. Do you
look at that as what as okay this is my
model and I will try to get there or you
say to yourself my gosh this is a mach
okay this is what you can be if you go
to two to to the extreme okay so I think
part of it is subjective and part of it
now the question is what do we need to
do okay so some of the decrees of the
says what? There is a parable to a son
who basically his father beat his beat
him up and the son they have no clue why
he's being punished.
So the father after he gave him a little
bit of a patch, he says to him, "Now go
ahead and do what I asked you to do for
the last few days and you just dismissed
it. You totally ignored me."
So says that all those thousands of
people that lost their lives at King
David's battles is because they what
they didn't demand to build the beta
mdash. Interesting.
And we will talk a little bit about the
history in a second. He says, "If you
want to tell me that the soldiers of
David died because they didn't ask for
beta mikdash, even more so
us, we saw the beta mikdash. It was
destroyed in our days. And if we not
going to
pray and ask for the building of the
beta mikdash, definitely we going to v
to be punished." Okay. Who says it?
What do we know about
was the of
So we also know that was wanted by the
Romans. We also know that and we also
know that what uh that we don't know
exactly how old he was. We know that
Rabaka was murdered at 135. Rabishiman
Bhai I don't know how old he was when he
was the student of Rabaka. have been,
you know, at the age of 16. I have no
idea. But he basically talks about what
>> the what?
>> Yeah, the cert right now.
>> 18 [laughter]
25. Um, so the thing is is what is that
we don't know exactly what the time is,
but we do know that Rabim wants to
create what?
Some kind of a reminder for the beta
mikdash. He probably reacted to what? to
what the Jews are very good at survival.
The beta mikdash was basically destroyed
in their days. And probably a generation
later, Jews basically concentrated on
what?
>> Building their lives, not necessarily
the beta mikdash. If you remember when
went out from the cave, I'm not saying
that that's the same time, but when he
went out of the cave with his son and he
saw people do what? Walk. And you know
why they had to walk?
because everyone needs to work a and b
they had to pay taxes to the Romans. So
they had to what to try to do their job
and
his son couldn't understand how can they
do that right so God told him what
>> and go back to the cave so the idea is
is that is trying to create what some
kind of a mechanism that you will still
remember the beta mikdash now I will
just say one more thing I have no idea
where he got the idea that king David
saw soldiers who were killed because
they didn't ask for the beta mikdash.
No idea.
I will tell you that the gar says that
at the time of
no one was killed and why because there
was no
so even though there was
when they are united even if they
worship idols they will not die. But
King David's there was lash from D and
others and therefore they were killed.
So that's what the Garra says. Where got
this idea? I've I really truly have no
idea. Yes.
>> What stage did you have to build anyway?
>> No idea. Yeah, I have no idea. Where is
the s Oh, sorry. Where is the source
for?
Yeah. Okay.
Oh, now we are not here in the
aboutdash. We are about
therefore
created what?
An enactment, a decree.
Who established the fact that we need to
D three times a day?
I think right. Okay.
And they also created some kind of
when do we say that?
When do we say that?
and but and why because there there was
and this is why we for what fordash but
during the day we during the week we
don't say that
they were the one to what to establish
the idea of
which
I thought that it was
that's what the game says
Okay.
So basically what this says
basically says that
what did they do? They understood that
what that if you don't d for the
building of the beta mikdash god forbid
something bad can happen. So they wanted
to protect the Jewish people and
therefore they created this
right. So here
again we are we're not sure who are this
but we do see that they make a decree
for
>> everyone
not only for their group but rather for
what? For all the people. Okay.
So now until now if I would ask you what
do you think about what would you say
>> extremely
>> some of them you will say it's really
extreme okay uh some of you will say
what
>> now when you say extreme you know what
let me clarify something with you say
extremist
let me ask you a little bit of a loaded
question extremist in the realm of alaka
or it's outside of the realm of
nothing
No comment for now.
>> Depends. It depends.
>> Okay. Some of the things that they do,
we can call it extra careful. Some of
the things that they do is extra mach a
bit and some of it is what is something
that we might aspire to or it's okay. I
mean to say bonim it's not a terrible
thing to say.
It's a constant reminder. It's something
good.
So now I would like to
study with you. We'll start today and
we'll continue next week.
The first confrontation
between
and
this is obviously will open up the
discussion
regarding
the tension between and not our okay
from the 17th century 18th century and
we will talk about it but
at the time of the formation of
created a tremendous tension and what do
I talk about? Okay, so let's see the
first one.
Okay,
so every time that there is sorrow,
pain, afflictions, tribulations
on the community, what do you do? You
war on the people and you start dvening
and everything besides one thing. Too
much rain.
You remember those days that we had rain
30 mm every day. You don't do even
though it might be dangerous. It can
create flooding and you know we saw that
it's very dangerous. Still you don't do
anything about it. Okay.
You all know the story but I'm asking
you to please read the story with fresh
eyes.
So people came to we don't know who
right please pray that we will have
rain.
So he told them what bring the pes
into the house so they will not melt
when the rain is going to come. So he
was so sure he's going to bring the
rain. Also, it seems to be that if he's
talking already about pes
or whatever that means it was around
time unless you are really into but if
not it was probably around
so and there is no rain ma so what did
he do
whatever that means we'll talk about it
but let's say he put a circle we'll just
take the simple understanding for now.
So he stood in this little circle and he
says what?
Master of the universe, your children.
So they approached me.
What is Ben?
Benite like part of your household.
So I'm I take an oath. I'm not moving
from here until you what? You will have
compassion on your children and you will
bring rain. Okay.
So we have a little bit of rain.
So I didn't ask for little rain. I asked
for what? For a lot of rain. Rain. That
what that will fill up all the all the
caves and all the ditches and
everything. Okay.
So they came heavy.
I didn't ask for that.
I asked for what? For blessed rain.
Okay. Good rain.
So they came down as they should
until what
is basically what went to
which is little higher because the rain
probably created some kind of flooding
in their streets. So we got to what to a
situation of [snorts]
too much rain. According to the Mishna,
what do you do when you have too much
rain?
>> Nothing.
You just say thank you and you move on.
The same way you d for the rain to come.
Please d for what? Rain. Rain go away.
You remember that song?
So you would expect Hony to tell them
what? No,
>> but the other one was natural rain. This
only came because of this. So it's a
different situation.
>> Yeah, but the outcome is the same. It's
too much rain.
>> But
>> but just one second. What you would
expect to say what
>> must speak. Don't don't ask me to to do
that because it's against
go ahead and see if this stone rock
we'll talk about that later if it was
which means if the water covered it
and if it's if it does so I'll pray for
it now
so the head of the Sanhedrin
sends a message to and he says the
following
if you were not
I would excommunicate you
understand by the way in ancient times
excommunication means what it's almost
like a death penalty no one talks to you
don't get alra no one makes business
with you and when you are so dependent
on the Jewish community you're basically
head.
But what can I do to you?
But what can I do? You are like a child
to God. And I don't want you what? To
make God angry with me. So I can't
really do anything to you. But I totally
disagree with you.
Now
let's stop here for a second. Oh wow.
Okay. Let's stop here for a second.
We see something interesting. There is
no rain. And what do they do? They go to
and they ask for rain. Now we said it
was around time, right?
>> Around pes time. You don't ask for rain
anymore. So
>> that's also for
I don't know if you remember but back in
we already start saying what anenu
for rain because we didn't have rain but
then you stop it because you don't need
rain after after before before pes. So
that's itself it's a little bit of a
strange thing that they came to ask for
rain before pes that's a b there is a
process when there's no rain what do you
do
>> at the beginning only the scholars and
then the others and then everyone and
you take theesh
you take it to the street you put epher
mle you put ashes on the nasi and the
arbadin and you pray and you pray and if
there is No rain, what do you do?
And rain and rain.
If there is no rainf
if the last period of rain of asking
rain is gone, you don't ask for rain and
then you need to deal with the
consequences.
But you see that the people went to Hony
and says what?
>> We won't rain.
Which is interesting. A B after there
was too much rain they came to him and
and told him what
>> that's too much so stop stop it and then
Shimra says to him what I would
excommunicate you why why would you
excommunicate him
so now I'm going to open it up for
options
that we will continue next week with
option number one
Shiman basically says to Hani what you
did was against Halaka
The alaka says what? There is a way to
ask for rain. There is a time to ask for
rain and definitely you can't ask for
too much rain to stop. Therefore, you
violated alaka publicly in in front of
everyone. You should be excommunicated.
Option number one. Option number two.
What you did? You honey basically
diminishing the establishment, the
halakic establishment.
And why we the rabbis are trying to
create system. There is a bathing and
the bathing says what you do.
What you do hony is an individual piety
that helps you to be like God's child
who listens to you like a father to his
child. But basically you cut corners
because the idea of filot and fasting
for rain is to basically tell the people
what
>> it depends on you. You need to do chuva
and as a reaction to your chuva, you
will get rain.
In a way, what hony does is come to the
magician
and I will make the magic for you. So
you don't need to do anything.
You can continue to do whatever you
want. Just come to Hony and Hony will
take care of you. said Shimon Benedak
the outcome might be good that there is
rain but the process is terrible and
what they will do when there is no
>> you are basically destroying
the Jewish people
so that's second option
third option
you
contradict publicly what we are trying
to do which is what a misguided.
Everyone will follow one thing. If you
start to do your own little thing,
people a will be confused and b their
admiration, respect to the establishment
will be
the rabbi says that that's what you need
to do. Yes, but I can I'm very friendly
with honey. Okay, he'll take care of me.
So the thing is is that it can be very
dangerous.
So now what do I try to portray here?
The tension between what what I will
call aic decisor Shim Bened who tried to
create some kind of an organized
religion versus who basically for him
for at least from what we see here
structure and decision does not really
apply to him.
Not even once he says to the people
whoever the people who approached him
rea
stop
maybe you need to think or rethink about
your request or maybe you need to do
chuva let's do chuva together clue
and also and this is the last thing I
will say when hony told them at least
according to this Mishna
bring back the ovens he was So sure that
the rain will come.
There is a little bit of what?
>> Little bit of an arrogance here. And to
his disappointment,
just imagine he dos and what?
>> Nothing happened the first time.
It took three times in order to get the
right frame, which is interesting. Is
that a sign from heaven that heaven does
not approve?
Okay, all those questions and more we
will do next week and what we will do is
that we will try to find out who is this
hony
who is
>> oh okay is an interesting fellow and we
will do a little bit of a research of
who is hon
after we will finish with Hony not like
finish hon we'll finish with the story
whatever you thought about hon before.
My hope is that you will not anymore,
but you will have an enriched
perspective on hony. That's for today.