Censured Wine and a Censored Teshuva

The topic of the last several daffin has been the idea of right. So I think it's good to talk a little bit about this Indian from a historical perspective and just to begin the Rama in Shu was asked the following question you asked me if I know the reason what people are because the has become in the lands of meatlash and other med as well where people are when it comes to drinking of non-Jews ain't and nobody's and you the want me to tell you whether or not they have something to be on is there anything that we can rely so receives a shil and the shil was that I noticed that in the medina of the fra and medina somehow the mic became that people are not makid in drinking stamina they'll literally walk into a tavern they'll work into a pub they'll go to a non kosher wine store and they'll take a nice bottle of wine off the shelf they'll bring it home and they'll drink it and they wrote to the rama I don't know I didn't hear any schmoozen about this nobody's being mo like what's going on over here is there anything that they have to be able to rely on or not. Now, at first glance, this conversation should be completely dead on arrival. And the reason is you're not sure if is a problem. I mean, that's been the topic really of the last 30 or so do for the most part. And we know that the Mishna says that and included in that you would think that it's had a question, a problem. Now, why would people not be? But the bottom line is this in me, by the way, where's me? Marin is Moravia. So, Moravia is the Czech Republic or that general area. So, when you think of him in me, Prague would come to mind, Nicholasburg would come to mind. I mean, these were Kahilas Kadoshas literally. And it sounds like they were being mousled in a in an incredible way when it came to nobody was being and the question was brought to the desk of and that is there anything that maybe we could be maybe is there some sort of is some sort of ko or not so the Ramo went and rauva and a chuva that was really really marish but I think in order to appreciate this truva It's kadai for us to take a step back and really are a little bit about what some of the gar we went through over the last several weeks and specifically two one is a on the days and the other one is a dun again this is a huge huge huge huge topic there's so much that's been written on it from the times of the straight through the times of the into modern contemporary academic works but we're just going to keep this very very high level and go through some of the nudas that are very pertinent to this shil and that is as follows. We've mentioned many times that when you talk about wine of the first thing we have to remember is that they weren't all created equally right? There's three categories of there's the real bonafide that's wine that was literally poured as a libation to some sort of that wine is it's we have is wine that was just produced by that wine mid rice is not user stating that we'll see in a minute said that that too is going to be and is going to be and then finally you have even the that in and of itself that a guy touched it makes this wineer and again and now the to all this is the following is a list of that And they're not only but they're also about as well. And the first thing mentioned in this list is now we made a big deal about this when we learned the second paragraph that the three Mishnay that talk about the first Mishna discusses that are the second Mishna discusses that are and the third Mishna talks about that are actually but the first Mishna that are The first thing mentioned is what's the said it's based on the following ampu. It says this equates the animals that were offered up as with the wine that was poured. So just like the carbon itself is so to the wine is going to be as well. How do you know that the because it says so says how do I know that it's slow down from apostic we compare so is also to the is going to be awesome. on the top of asks two cautious he asks more but two cautious first asks is that I don't understand the when the Mishna said which wine is it referring to so says it's referring to it's referring to is based on That's not why is that's why would beer that's a that's telling me it is a what is this have to do with he says is another this is all these gumar we're going to talk about we learned recently and the over there was discussing the right the infamous That was so right infamous because it came about through a terrible between people died says so clearly infamous but the bottom line is is that the said that the after they were enacted was such an important part of the fabric of Yiddish that if they would come and try to be they wouldn't have an ability to be mafl but either way in the fact that it's all related to then the Gar goes ahead and the Gmorra clarifies the said of and don't drink the wine of and by the But either way, that's the gives a different reason why is not because of a but rather it's based on and they were through because if you're going to drink wine with you may marry their daughters which is going to lead to but the bottom line is as again number one is number one that is not what are you talking about and number two the gave a different reason why is so says number two with the so says like this that's you have to say that the reason that was they're all related to and the is related to the fact if you're going to drink wine with a guy you may end up marrying his daughter that's why said that is going to be us stating that we see in the suga there's a big difference between stam and is not only it's in the first of the three Mishna is in the second as it relates to those that are the was bothered that if you're going to tell me that are all related to the same thing they're all related to so that when it comes to you find that it's it makes it the first yet when it comes to then it's only in the second Mishna. Now says the Gmorra knew the answer. The answer must be it's because when it came to Yan Kazal wanted to be Mak because they didn't want people to confuse it with right there's nothing to confuse it with. But now that we created a category called and we know there's something called and if is going to be this is a little dangerous cuz this is this is people are going to think it's all. So we're going to run into problem. So the gammorra understood that the reason must be it's related to the fact that but the gammor's question is the go and how do you know that that's when the says the gur is not finding a forum the is finding a for why are you talking about if the sugi is handling because stam's has to be related to it has to be related to the fact that it has some if that's the case really the underlying to says the how do you know the answer is but the bottom line is the fact that it gets upgraded from a regular to Isra the fact that it transcends that's because has a category of and we didn't want to be which means the is really rooted in the and that's the test of days where the says how do you know that which ultimately will be the will be the source for how I know that is going to be as well. Now the one that's worth mentioning and that is that at the end of the day if Kazal felt that has to be similar to then why do I need the to tell me that is and only the of let be the for the and the if it's the for the why can't It also be the say that you have to say that really was a interesting it was somewhat and it's for that reason for to go ahead and say that all is going to be that they were never ready to do but once they said that is awesome and now we're ready I have two that are awesome I have that's awesome that's awesome So this one's and this one's not that's when we need to be. But if there was no would have never answered. It's only once it's already answered. We don't want one to have an isan also and the other one not to have an isan. Very glad. But the bottom line is this is what says and by the way the right here in the parallel in the in says the same thing. The ay in a few different places says the same thing. The brings up says the same thing. This is the based mahal how to understand in the ton of you have two days which seems to suggest it's a you have the which seems to suggest from the answer is the fact that it's that is related to not but we don't want that but should be this is the first let's hold that thought the Second typhus is a much longer typhus. We're not going to go through the whole thing. And it's the last now the masal of isuk. It's very fun especially in because we spent a lot of time going through the of so just to refresh said from a bryer a bryer that talked about someone that owns an eved an e kanani but the eved was mava and the bryer mentioned two typ Heaps of examples of when a person owns an that was either he bought the and he gave or it was the where a person had a that hadn't had yet. She gave birth to an he did additionally the bra said related to and the also said related to the maga of the as it relates to the wine. Any other way from that Bryce of the Gar had a on if you remember what was the whole the whole but what was the whole the whole of related to one word my and the of the came out that there's three ways you could understand that word in the if you hold that would explain the is going on that part of the if you hold you hold we have to go through So then either the can be going on the part of the noting in which case it would be meaning said would come out not like that was the original or it could be going on the part of that part of the in which case it would be said in the name of that if somebody buys an from but for the first 12 months after his he's still going to be. So is in the first part of this makes a beautiful he says if you hold that as it relates to the is so what's going to then emerge is that the is either going to be or which in English means that you're not going to be able to hold you're not going to be able to it's going to end up being one or the other in other words really it's Meaning this is the makes this is what we need. What we need is if you when said it's really a between now proves that is going to so whether or not that touches according to is if that's the case says twice what's the what should If it's like grab which by the way the said what does it mean it's but it's like where it won't even be it's going to be so we know whenever there's if it's a question of if it's a question of like stating that says I found in the Bah and I found in the peers from here on and there was a tal amongst us who had where he had written down that he was from that all said over here is going to be like that is that is going to be so if a touches the wine of a it's going to be says is watching like grab when it comes to so why you over here be like so makes a beautiful says because after right said seems like he holds like because he's beingaric of lived before but he's being the so it sounds like he holds of says Tyus we know if there's between this is from the few times you'll ever say this we pass like not like so we pass if there's what if it's a raid bite but the bottom line is if there's is between like always. If that's the case, is and based on stating that is also and we know is so it's true if it's head up mano against here is going to be like grab but this is very much not a one-on-one over here on and is from all these when it comes to and if that's the case says that was in the of the in the ofano that was in the of that they all pasin like that that goes ahead and he touches wine is It's going to be now this was amongst the Bali. Now you're going to say why it was so that the day that was born he went ahead he was chopping with the wine all wow you should know is like it's going to be that's not the reason the reason is because brings that the reon who we know was Rash's son-in-law and the Rajban who we know was Rash's grandson they both said that they had a mess from Rashi the reon from his and the Rashban from his zeta who said that he found an that the are not considered anymore to be people that are on being it's not something that anymore once upon a time they were today they're not so anymore and if that's the case said Rashi when a go today will touch wine. It's like a touching wine because a guy touches wine. Whoa. It's very very Why is it very because of maybe it was that was back in the day but today that's not prevalent anymore. He said he saw this already in so that's not a real concern. And if it's not a real concern then today if a guy would go ahead and touch wine that means he's touching it but for sure and if he's touching it it's the equivalent thereof of a right just one more from the and that is remember the said what's the definition of a and what's the definition of a when it comes to said a is someone that's and a cotton is someone that's not so definition of That's just dramatic. But the point is if he's not doesn't walk around talking about these. So then already he's a and said that what that or that today all the even when it comes to this and the reason is now just to hit the pause button for one second just to appreciate this there's a very important work that was written on the topic of it was written by Dr. Professor Haim Solvvesic. It's called Jews and the Wine Trade in Medieval Europe. Now, it's interesting. I actually went through most of the book these last few weeks and really it's a deep dive analysis on you know the history of stam specifically in medieval Europe as the title suggests but he really goes through this here and many many marus amongst the Bali to from different chas trying to get to the bottom of understanding this a little bit better I am sure But just one very interesting point and I think to say it belav just to appreciate this a little bit better and that is he says as follows. Christians however I'm picking this up literally mid paragraph never lied baited wine to their god. This was not something that the nitro did. Admittedly they used wine in the mass and that wine was considered an idolatrous offering. However the widespread fear of libated wine was due to a custom common in Babylonia. Whenever people touched wine, they would offer with a flick of the wrist a drop to local demons or spirits. That's what this was all about. No such practice had existed for centuries in the societies in which the Jews of medieval France and Germany live. So that the pentatukal injunction against no longer applied. In other words, the whole of it was really related to a pagan custom that if a guy saw wine, he would mamish bots with his razes, right? We had literally we saw it in today's stop. They would spring. They would literally jump into action and they would go and just like a little flick a flick of a wrist just to do a little bit of a liation. That's what the kash was. And this was something that was common practice in Babylonian mish times of the Talmud. And that's why said there's no question that what do you think the guy did passes the guy he sees wine he gives it a flick and what's this flick all about and that's really the shish that's the that's where this whole union came about so Rashi already said that he saw the truth that going back to the 8th 9th 10th century already then this was not common practice anymore and he said no yes Sunday and their rituals you stay away from the this is something that they're involved in. But that's not what we're worried about when the G goes and touches the wine that maybe that's something that's it's not anymore. Now stating that there was still it's not something but that for sure with like a certain level of confidence we can uh feel and ascertain that there was some that just took place that's not something already said in the times of the they were saying we had to be worried about okay so what happens if a guy touches wine today where you're not really concerned that maybe there was a oh it's mish like a tinic goes and he touches wine that's a sug and based on that it would be a So with this little hakama all in right besides for the excerpt from him but everything we just sent now is in this right here. So says like this and it was based on this that sent a letter to he told him as I want you to see from me and from your brother it should be to drink wine today even if I touches. Why? The reexplained. He said, "Your brother today. They don't do the flick of a wrist anymore with the wine. looks like but here. So if that's the case today, if a guy would go ahead and a guy would touch wine to go ahead and drink it gets this telegram from and he says the re is tining is 2 plus 2 equals four, right? He made a very simple back of the envelope arithmetic. Rashi said that all wine today that's touched by a guy as if it was touched by because today they're not involved in anymore and himself like when it comes to based on that today if a is going to go ahead he's going to touch wine this is something that should the wrote in my name he acted a little too as I threw it out there as a possibility that maybe is like I never pass in that way. Yeah, it was a sad you speak out. He spoke out one half of you missed the end. Now it's true. I'm not arguing with that said today is not read. So I'm not arguing with that. But at the same time is not like but the bottom line is Tom wrote to the he says you're doing the math is perfect but there's one problem. The problem is you were misinformed. You were told that I held that is like is not like is really like if like if is really if a guy touches even if a guy today is treated like a is going to be awesome. Now Ty goes and says one second even if the like the but we know the Gmorra said that even right what was Rav's he only said that it's going to be regarding so says for sure what should come out from the math 2 plus two here is for sure going to be four and that is that if a guy touches wine today and says that's the way it should be stating that weren't so comfortable with this. They came back and they weren't 100% sure. And really this drama of this place is if you open up and this is ina it's touches wine It's about then he says and really it comes down to this right here. So really this if you think about for a second is a big ka a few points here that would be a big ka in the world of right you have over here number one rash the quoted it quoted it it comes really from and that is that the today are not anymore that came from the flick of a wrist and that's not something that's anymore. And because that's not something that's anymore, this is not really something that we need to be concerned with. Which means if a go today touches wine, it's the equivalent thereof of a tinic touching wine. And a py that touches wine in the worst case scenario meaning we pass like that it's only going to be it's not going to be in which case what should emerge then is that for sure if a today would touch say you open up an expensive bottle of wine and then a guy goes ahead and he touches it so you can't drink it but at the same time you want to sell it to a guy right that's something you'll be allowed to do it's for sure something that would be there's even a facade here in this that it would be right the read told I don't know between you your brother and your father it should come out that what responded to Tom said I never said like I entertained there was a he was writing shir he heard one side in the it's not that we we came out of but don't forget to quoted the and quotas seemed to really like this sad a lot that could be that really is like so gave us to be that be like that if a guy touches wine of not only would it be but you can go ahead and you could drink it who you being you're being and you're being what the thought said that's what you're being I hear right could do worse it sounds like this for sure such a that maybe you'd be able to drink this wine. What about what about so for this we have to go back to the base and that's why both are critical in terms of understanding this won't help us for why because although the said what did the say it's related to what it's related to alo if it's related to say oh today there's no because today are all but said that really the was only addressing why is why it's going to be but as it relates to the that's not related to the what's the is related to that's related to this whole with the and that's going to in effect. Now if you want to tell me if you want to tell me that learning this it should come out that which the Mishna says is the should that's very glut and if you go through as well you'll see wasn't only saying he was saying it regarding but it's only going to help you for the it's not going to help you for this. They'll say even if you want to go like the and with so 2 plus 2 equals four to say that if touches the wine of it's going to be that's true when the wine belongs to with the whole and is related to so then you'll say the today are not and they don't do the flick of the wrist anymore. You'll tell me that is like but is independent of the is related to it's this did not touch the didn't change from the times of the Jews living in the Babylonia and this man of the Talmet versus that is something that still can move on and If that's the case as relates to the iser of drinking that in and it of itself would be neither here nor there. So let's revisit now the ch from the rama. So the asked to shy he's told that the Jews in Marin the thrat but really and other medin as well they're being very very mousal in the Indian of and the question is is there any right maybe is there anything that they could be so when he starts his chuva he begins he says you I'm a little bit afraid to write this chuva and he quotes and he invokes famous words in a mitz where he said if I'm going to go ahead and I'm going to say yeah this is you know people are going to say this is not good for my professional career he says if I'm going to go ahead and I'm not going to say and and really there is so people are going to be when really you have to be so he said that famous what did he say above he said I'm going to say I people are going to misinterpret it he says can you show him says I'm going to say what I feel is the end and then he goes to work the drama and he goes to that whole that we went to And then he works through this entire and says you see already that this when it comes to this based on the and based on the and based on but then makes that we spoke out right we saw the he makes the that we spoke out one second that's only going to help me and you even have if you want to drink it cuz he could be maybe on and what the Rama refers to as it's interesting he was he didn't dismiss himself dismiss but he keeps on referring to in the interesting but either way but he said that's all going to help you again or have again we said the said it and said all the said that's related to but to drink it for that what's going on who has a for that should be dead on arrival stating that you ready for this I'm going to give you a little bit of an and it's it's a what does here it's says I'm going to give you an a little bit of and really he says number one why We neutralize but we have a problem. We have a problem. But it's not just that's says we know the says there were people that were when it came to and the reason is because it was it was and says so then already it takes on a life of its own and throw in the fact that it's so it's for that reason there's people that are very make when it comes to says if that's the case to say that is the same thing because you have now who told the to be who told them by it happened it evolved that way but that's the and wine is also how do you live without wine so if wine is so just like by past there was an withhine's going to be the same thing now kind of ben one second like the like the always say but when it comes to so for this we refer again back to him solvik's thesis and again this is just mitsus stuff that we have to understand a little bit better just a few excerpts the role of wine in medieval northern Europe wine was not a luxury in medieval times but a staple of life water was not drunk and wine and beer were the main sources of liquid nourish ishment of people in all walks of life. Being so central a part of the regular diet, wine and beer were as much a daily necessity as a source of intoxication and relaxation. Small wonder that people drank constantly. They drank at work. They drank after work, in their homes, or in pubs. The wine bell, which announced the sad news at the time had come to close all taverns and pubs returned home, was only too familiar a sound, etc., etc. Skipping a page here. Why the thirst? Why people drink so much wine? Medieval people as a rule didn't drink water. Even monks and aesthetics astrute it. Nobody drank water. Drinking water for any length of time was considered not only a deprivation but even a grave humiliation. I'm going a little bit viter. Whiskey had not been invented yet. Tea and coffee had not yet reached Europe and thirst could be quenched only with wine or beer. Now he says as an aside, the English had no choice but to drink beer. for most of the wine was imported and therefore expensive. As for the domestic wine, one drank it, as one French visitor put it, with closed eyes and clenched teeth. But outside of England, where they had wine available in wine country, that's what everybody would drink. They would drink wine. So we don't have this. Nobody drank wine. By the way, this gives new meaning to the Mishna, right? But that's you have to be prepared EVEN TO DRINK WATER. I mean to drink water. Yeah. Because nobody drank water. First of all, the water was considered to be unclean. It was somewhat contaminated. It was always a concern. But the nobody drank water. Every you drank wine or beer. There was no freshly squeezed oranges on the menu either apparently. So these were your two options. So places where they had wine to drink, they drank wine. Everybody, he goes and he talks about how people they would get paid their wages, right? So person signs a contract, five years, 87 gallons of wine. Like that's mamish with a signing bonus of you know a little more wine. That's mish how loans were paid in wine. Wine was so central to daily life. It was mindbogg as well. Then he said something even more phenomenal. He said that the discussed it was what's the with regards to beer is beer of a guy is beer of a going to be also is the beer should be it or is it and the said andra said it was also and said is and even on that it's the different reasons why it should be one man said that the reason it's stating that if you remember The gumar said that would of he would go to the and he would buy beer from them. He would buy beer beer of a he would go ahead and he would buy beer but he would drink it outside the pub. He wouldn't literally walk into the pub. There was another he would take it home. He's what was the reason because they both held at is and is only a problem if you're eating it MISH WITH THEM. BUT IF you're taking it to go there's no problem. So said there's mim to say it's mindboggling what is doing here. He said there's to say that and you find by this incredible that as long as you're not drinking it says in their taverns in their pubs. So then there's no so why should wine be any different? Wine is so wine is no problem. You see these were when it came to as long as they weren't drinking and if that's the case you can do the same thing and if you can do this everything is going to be okay in other words said I have two to he said one to be is that it could be wine is like it's like bread you find this idea that it was and it was who when it comes to wine it was in and it's as we so eloquently quoted. So if that's the case, it should be it could be wine should BE TREATED LIKE BEER and beer says and still when it came to beer as long as they didn't do it as well you TAKE IT TO GO I'll take it to go. You walk into a wine store and you take a non-cooser bottle of wine to go. So what's the problem over here? So you see was why should why be any different? So the went ahead and he said if that's the case even said the problems take a look at go through that whole and go through that whole and you're going to we can neutralize that 100%. The problem is that the is related not to but rather what's he related to? It's related to it's related to there's two and based on these two maybe there's a little bit of uh to be now this is the very important uh caveat says to go ahead now you have nothing to worry about but says I'm not coming now to say it's all I'm saying is in fact he says someone that he says but at the same time and then Ram says something very interesting we meant with this. He says, "I think there's a in being in in saying this." And he says, "I think there's a few reasons." He says, "Number one, being that older Jews in you're telling me in Moravia, I go to Prague's drinking non-coosher wine." So, you know, you can't even trust them when it comes to wine. So, who do a Jew even buy wine from? You'd have to stop producing your own wine because if someone is on, he's not even believed when it comes to that thing. So the Ram says that when it comes to and someone being a if someone does something wrong even if he does it brazenly but he has then he doesn't become a this is what says and being that there's so that would make it enough that they shouldn't be and even adds a he says even though they don't that they're really being on this he said you think the guy who's you know holding by the exactly what's going on over here right that guy who's rounding third doesn't what I'm talking about but at the same time he was being on someone was being on someone and he said I think if you trace the origin of where this mic was it was probably related to some of the things that I mentioned and if that's the case it's considered that they have they're not going to be considered he says another thing he says that there's another and that is meaning even though yeah is but like don't overplay it it's whatever said is is but don't overdo it. And he quotes Shami that says even though the we saw the last five days don't feel so much that way but when it comes to but he says that there's a rule that anytime this to be so even if we're not going to be but whatever is going to be whatever not not he says something fascinating he says he says maybe that's what meant when said well only on the Sanhedrin in order to appoint someone has to be someone who has the ability to be matraz. Why do you have to you could be matra shar right guy comes in what are your credentials submit an application I like to be a dian I want to send I want to be from the tell me what could you do I could be matara shar sorry signs sounds like you have a kum if there's ever been one right what's the myo of being matar said no there's enough mats because if you could take something that's convince me that it's so even though it's aer it's not going to be as aer fascinating so it's going to mitigate and he says the third thing is that there's a truth from the said that should not drink. This is what said because it's related to and says I hope at least this will accomplish that if they're going to give him and then he says I hold even if the is but you can give him but this is what writes. So the says that yeah at first glance this minute sounds like a minute pom sounds like what's going on over here but there's a little bit of an it's like pass which was in it was wine once upon a time was like which is related to and at the same time as long as you take it to go some form of to go what that definition of to go is but on some level if you take it to go it's going to be okay this is what Ram wrote back to be not to But at the same time on these that were in Moravia that were drinking stamina and again seems like another place as well. I'll just tell you one fascinating postcript to this and that is that so this cha was printed and it seems like the wasn't so comfortable with this chuva from the rama. So I have right here this is a shuv it's Amsterdam and it was printed in the year the misparum if you take a look at it's not this chuva this chuva was censored out they took it out the fact that wrote a chuva and he was even though he said five times over and over and over again don't be on this and that considered And you know maybe you can give him it was taken out. It's actually interesting because in this and this is a very very famous truth from it's probably the most famous. I mean it's between these two. They're definitely going to have to duke it out. Which is the most? It's probably the next one. This is the one where the Ram officiated a marriage on a Friday night to this woman that was that we've gone through and the a few times already but I'll put him that's but in this I'm holding another this is another this happens to be a faximile but this is another and this was printed I can't pronounce it I'm guessing it's somewhere in Germany Hung Austria epso not even going to try but this was also printed printed in. It was printed in the same exact year. It was printed in the year 1711. And if you look at he has the truth. So in the same year the Jewish was printed twice and in Amsterdam they took it out here they didn't. Now who is the matim? So the mus of Amsterdam was actually somebody very famous. It was lost who was the son of Loam who was the son of Pashel was also the we've spoken about him over the years but the bottom line is it came from he was one of the great and he censored out this chuva it's actually interesting because if you look at the heading of this truva so the truva starts like this this is what wrote in the beginning of this chuva it's in parenthesis it's in the beginning of Now if you look at the real chuv not the censored ones it's in the beginning of the real chuva right here if you look at the Amsterdam the one that was censored it's in the beginning of that chuva the chuva where he officiated the marriage on a Friday night now both of these needed for the rama we know what the outcome was from the other chuva right they banned they put they made a ban that no one would be able to get married on a Friday in Krakow because of this had to was very very upset imagine the rama gave it controversial talking so If someone says controversial, you know, you know, he has right but you know the is that you know either way today's was really the introduction just to understand this a little bit. Tomorrow we're going to do part two. Tomorrow as a kaburu we're going to be traveling to Italy and we're going to discuss the minig of the Italian Jews and stam which is a fascinating fascinating topic. We're going to stop here.