But They’re Your Blood, That’s How Survivors Stay Silent.- Sury Fish LCSW - S2 EP5

What happens to a child when their protector becomes their abuser? You can do something to your own child or to your own sibling or to your own grandchild or whatever it is that will break them on such a level. The biggest lie the most common one I'm allowed to I'm your father. I'm your grandfather. I'm your mother. I'm your we live in families. When family is the source of trauma, family becomes the source of trigger. So the trigger is all the time. Well, the toers that's true and so how come the person who sat with Gumuras did that? Yeah. The subject becomes taboo and really doesn't have to. It doesn't contradicts with the values that you want to give. It's extremely inspiring to work with incest survivors and to see that dynamic of being able to hold such dark parts of themselves and live a life of joy. If there is one survivor that's going to do this today, this podcast has already done its thing. What message do you have for families who are in denial who would say, "I would rather lose you as a child than expose this to the public. This episode is sponsored by Candid Recruits. Candid Recruits serves the tri-state area. Are you a business owner? Are you an employee? Are you looking to hire? Or are you looking to find a better job? called candidate recruits. They are connecting the right people with the right jobs. They have over 300 successful hires already. They are vetting every employee to the highest level from white collar to blue collar to everything in between. And the best part of candidate recruits is they charge a flat fee versus the other agencies who charge 25% of the salary. So do yourself a favor and reach out to candidate recruits at 8458289210. Call now. Okay. Today uh we are diving into the most hidden form of trauma. Incest. These are wounds that um don't just break a person. They shed in generations. Um okay. Our guest today is a licensed um therapist. Her name is Suri Fish. >> Yes. >> Uh she specializes in psycho drama, >> right? >> Uh and she focuses on the unthinkable, on incest abuse. Suri, welcome to the podcast. >> Thank you. Thank you for having me here. >> Thank you so much for coming in. Um before we start, this is um such a uh sensitive subject and I want to discuss it because it's happening in a place where it's supposed to be the safest for the for for for for the survivor. It's supposed to be a safe haven and the unthinkable is happening. Um, is this something that comes into you often or is it something far in between? >> No. Um, it comes into me very often. However, in the last few years, I have put myself out there as someone who deals with this. So, you can debatably say that I get more incest survivors than a regular therapist. But I think in truth, I didn't do a study on this. I don't think that's true. I think that every therapist from or not from or or Jewish or not Jewish, a big percentage of their populations are incest survivors. A big percentage. >> Wow. Now, um if you can explain us what is behind it. Um, is it an addiction? Is it a form of control? Is it entitlement that that person feels? You know, because this is this is this is second level abuse. Um, what what do you see? What's the drive behind this thing? >> So, my work is not with perpetrators. So, I'm not going to know I'm not going to pretend to know the psychology, >> right, >> behind that. But I I could tell you that the impact on the survivors what they feel >> for some people it'll be an addiction for some people lots of people especially if it's a if it's a father or a parent or a mother or like a a parental figure then it'll be a form of control like I own every part of you. >> I have full control over you even the deepest parts of you definitely there's that feel. Mhm. >> Um, for some it's it is some kind of addiction. When it's I think it depends who the abuser is. Again, I get it from the survivors, right? >> Um, when it's a teenage brother, very many times it is they have been abused either sexually or physically. Many times they've been severely beaten or something like that and the younger sister is just the easiest target. >> Mhm. Um, that's what I see or that's the feel of it. Again, I'm not doing the psychology of perpetrators. >> I just get the feel >> and um I would assume that you're asking that question >> because you're trying to get to the prevention piece. Like when you're thinking of that question, there's a reason. >> Yeah. But first, I want to understand what's behind this. I mean, why are they grabbing? I mean, I it's it's a bad uh explanation, but they're grabbing an opportunity, you know, they feel like uh family secrecy. They feel like it's an easy very easy target because the family is not going to go and talk, you know, because everybody, this is understandable, you know, without even talking about it, that this stays behind closed doors. I just want to understand what's behind this. Uh I mean, because the numbers are like astronomical is what you're saying, >> right? I think really what you're trying to tell me, tell me if I'm right, is that you're horrified by this. >> Yeah, for sure. >> Yeah. And we're trying to make sense out of it, right? And I think all community members try to do that. >> The thought is is is uh is horrifying. >> Yeah. >> And would you would you would you say that this is happening a lot in tight-knit communities? >> Yes. In all in all tits. It's not particular communities. This happens. >> Exactly. It happens in the entire world. the entire world. I don't want to come here and say that it's more in the Jewish community, not because I'm protecting anybody, just because it's not true, >> right? Wow. >> It's happening in all communities. >> If you're going to look through statistics, you will see it. I think the the more insular the community is or the more family-minded the community is, the more you're going to find it, >> right? >> And the more the feeling of protection, the more you're going to find it. There definitely is even a um a difference in our communities when it's a more kind of feel of we will protect our own then it could happen more. >> Yeah. >> In general sexual abuse happens more in places where the feel is we protect our own and also the >> the reality is that there keeps on being protection for perpetrators. Those communities do have more. >> Mhm. But I think what you're telling me is this is horrific. And without understanding it, right, >> without trying to make sense out of it, it is horrific. It just is horrific to think that there are parents or even siblings or uncles or grandfathers or grandmothers or whatever it is doing such painful abuse to children. >> Yeah, >> it is horrific. >> It is horrific. Now, there's also levels in this type of abuse uh which are more harsh than than others or they're all the same harsh. >> Well, I don't want to label it, right? Because I cannot say what's more harsh, what's not more harsh. >> I can't even say which one damages a psyche more than the others. Um, I can say as like a community member maybe rape is more horrifying to you than molestation, but I can't say that it's definitely more harmful. >> You can't put a number on it. >> No, I can't put a number on it. I think you could put a number on more how much support there was afterwards. That will be a predictor on how much PTSD there will be. >> That I can put a higher number on than what kind of abuse, which one was more damaging than the other. Now what happens to a child to a child's psyche uh when the protector uh becomes the abuser um what happens to a child I hope that I will do justice. Um I do want to say that many times and sometimes the child has never felt that parent is being a protector because even if the sexual abuse hasn't happened yet, there is something in that parent's um way of being missing something. >> Yeah. That's not very protective. Sexual abuse usually in the family does not happen in a vacuum. There's going to be boundary crossing in their space in their mind even you should think the way I think >> in the whole autonomy right the whole autonomy is not going to be in a way of respecting a child >> and it's very important what you're saying right now is because it forget about abuse just how a child is brought up that child must be safe in many different ways. >> Exactly. Emotionally, >> privacy, there's a certain respect that has to be a certain boundaries between parents and children. And it and and it like it's interesting the way you put it, but it doesn't start by uh sexual abuse. >> No. In some cases, there was no locks on the bathroom doors. H >> I don't know if every child got abused the same amount, but there was that. Um, and definitely if there's sexual abuse, there's going to be violation in their private stuff, just in their diaries, in their things, they're going to feel unprotected in that way. However, it's not in all cases. Sometimes, especially if there's, let's say, an addiction involved other than the sex piece. Let's say if there's an alcoholism or if there's a drug addiction. And sometimes the abuser in the family is okay when they're not actively on their addiction, but when they're drunk or something, it'll come in. So sometimes it is that way that their protector turns and becomes their abuser, >> right? And and let's say it's not even the alcohol or drugs. Maybe sometimes it's more stressful situations. There is it isn't a incest is not a one-sizefits-all thing, right? Like everything else, people are not computers. Um but I want to go back to your question. You said what happens to a child when their protector becomes their abuser? I think I can start with that every child needs parents and every child wants their siblings. Every person wants a family. And so you really want that family. >> It's safety. >> It's safety. It's it's your sense of safety, right? All we have in in this world is a sense of safety. >> Correct. And family is the sense of safety. And it's also this the the source of joy and fun and family vacations or even just going to a park and smoozing on chabas and uh playing games like Oll and whatever, right? It's like it's your childhood. >> It's the healthy fabric of a child. >> Yes. It's eating suppers. And not every incest survivor will have a disturbed supper table. Some will but not every. And you want that. That's your fabric of your sense of everything. Right? And then on the other hand, it's your sense of it's it's the part that breaks everything. Breaks your whole sense of safety, your whole sense of who you are. The whole sense of intimacy, of of love, of connection, of confidence. of just being human, right? It breaks it all. And the target, the person who did that to you was the person who you hoped you would get the most love from. At least, right? At least you hoped. And sometimes it is. Sometimes it is. Sometimes even in grooming, there's some kind of warped love. Not that I understand >> right >> what that is but I see in the healing the most uh one of the powerful things that happens in healing is to own both. I did feel loved. >> Wow. >> I did feel loved and I even feeling >> yeah I even feeling to the person and that will always be there. And sometimes, so many times when I'm sitting and processing with people and they're crying in some kind of way, right? And sometimes they just want to go and tell their father about this pain, right? Even though the father is the person who caused it, it just comes out like that or Yeah. And so many times it also affects the relationship afterwards. I see that more with brothers, right? Let's say he was a teenager and if he did do his work and there was some kind of reconciliation that's very healing but many times it takes a lot of courage to do that it takes a lot of work to do that from both parties so sometimes at least what I get is that the sister is doing the work right and they don't know the brother doesn't look like an abuser right now right and they meet by family simas they meet at the family's shabas table or whatever it is. >> And sometimes they could even have a good relationship now. And maybe even there's trust. Sometimes there's not. Sometimes there's >> these teenagers who grow up and they stay that way and they didn't get help and there's not trust. And all right, that's a little bit of a I would say an easier situation even though it's it's hard to say that that's easier, right? But when he did grow up and he did do some healing, right? But he didn't come back and own and say, "I did this to you. Is there anything I can do?" >> Take full responsibility is what you're saying. >> Yes. Sometimes that does happen. I want to tell you. >> Yes. There are especially in brothers who grew up or sisters, I don't want to just put it in a box of one thing, who grew up and did healing and realize what they did and they come back and they apologize and some pay for even some therapy sessions or something like that. that there is some kind of a I'm not saying that and then you go to families and and it's all dandy. No, the triggers are still there. Your brain is still going to have some PTSD from it and it's still going to be uncomfortable for you and you're still going to be looking at the when is he coming or not coming? The sister-in-law walks in and you're like, "Right, and you're going to have all these PTSD symptoms of dissociation and all that kind of stuff." that can still happen but it's definitely easier >> after a uh >> after a some kind of reconciliation that went on >> but I would want to understand what's what's when when the brother whatever goes for help or sister it doesn't matter um what's the rationale behind it a little bit I mean is it because they did not have um they were they were what what's the rationale from their part what are they saying like forgive me for what I this this is this is the lie that I'm telling you that this is what happened or maybe it wasn't a lie maybe it was desperation for something what what is that do you ever hear a rational >> very little right but I I see that it's important I guess because if you're feeling it I think it's to make sense out of what happens right >> um I can say just the little that I got um >> is they were so abused and they didn't know where to put the rage out Okay. >> Lack of education. >> That has a lot to do with that because because um what I'm hearing from you is that um it is missing um education about this subject and about a million other subjects when it comes to these things. >> Well, children, >> yes. Well, well, boys grow up, they hit puberty, and you want to I think that um in a in a religious community like ours, there is values that you have >> even like um you well, you don't want to you don't want them to have sex before marriage and you don't want them to masturbate, that whole thing, right? And it ends up being in some kind of way that you think that you can't educate because of that. You can't say what sex is biologically. You're growing up, you're going to >> the subject becomes taboo. Yeah, the subject becomes taboo and really it doesn't have to. It doesn't contradicts with the values that you want to give. >> It really doesn't contradict. You can you can give education about the biological piece that happens that you know the hormones come in and then there is attraction and then >> how to channel it and do whatever you have to do. Uh >> exactly. >> So so so we're all safe. >> Yes. And you can say this is a private thing and it could be very damaging if if you don't do it privately whatever you do a little something and then you can teach you can open up whatever kind of cipher you want to do and you teach that course why or what when whatever it is that you want that to keep a higher standard of >> whatever you want to call it purity kadesha whatever you want to do you can teach that it's not a contradiction at all >> so what you're saying is that um it should be in the curriculum >> schools schools should take responsibility how about parents Well 100% parents and schools would be a nice thing to take responsibility and I also think a very interesting thing in the same way as every school >> understands that there needs to be a lunch break of a half hour or an hour >> right >> there should be an understanding that especially boys but girls I think there isn't that understanding maybe or it's just more acceptable there should be a half hour or 45 minutes of exercise if you go into every yeshiva in the same way they have lunch they will have some kind of exercise so much of their problems would go down >> because you think the the just by doing physical exercise is >> it balances something you would have less fights you will have more open-mindedness more availability to learn even >> and your sex drive will be more balanced as well. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Now, as far as talking about abuse, regular sexual abuse and incest, how would you incest is seems to be >> the way you described it before that um this breaks a person in all levels. >> Yes. >> Now, regular abuse, I mean, sexual abuse, you would put it on family member. Yeah. You would put that on a different level or again, you're not you're not um scaling numbers. Well, I'm not scaling numbers, but I'm going to tell you that's for sure. I'm not the one and and nobody could. >> Nobody could, of course, >> but I could tell you where the difference is real. When you have someone who's been sexual abused, not by a family member and not by somebody close to them, which is very, I think, especially in the girl section, you're going to have it with someone who was close to them. But let's say it wasn't close to them, right? and the father hears about it or the mother and hopefully they can react with her and they could react with wanting to protect the child and wanting to heal the child that is such a high level of of healing. It's almost the healing. >> It changes the whole dynamic because the child ran to the safety uh net. >> Yes. >> The child ran to the people who would comfort the child and here you help the child. You give him support. You you you validate the child and then you can move on to healing. >> Yeah. >> But oy if you have to run to a parent who who who the parent is the is the problem. >> You're not going to run. >> Sh. >> You're not going to run. >> It's not only that. There's nobody to run to. >> Exactly. >> Where's this kid going to run? >> There's absolutely nowhere to run to. H >> and the other part is that when they grow up the PTSD symptoms will be in the family. I am a father now. I am a mother now. And my mother, my father, I am a brother now. I am a sister, an adult brother, adult sister. Right? All that. And my children are this age. Well, my children are this age. Also happens in regular sexual abuse. That that becomes the trigger when they reached the age very often. and the whole family dynamics. Every Shabbas table becomes a might be a trigger. Every family vacation might be a trigger. Every everything might be a trigger. We live in families. When family is the source of trauma, family becomes the source of trigger. So the trigger is all the time. If somebody goes out someplace, right, and let's say somebody gets abused in the mikvah, the mikvah might become the trigger, right? Sure, there's I know there's more triggers than just mikvah, but when it's in the family, >> everything family and we live in family and we want to live in family, >> of course, >> right? That is the fabric of our society. >> What else do we have? >> Exactly. Right. What else do we have if not family? And if family becomes the trigger in such a deep violating way, then what happens to your life? Let me ask you, why do victims, survivors >> carry shame and and and and not the abuser? >> Well, I think a little bit you gave me the answer and not the abuser. Sometimes there is this thing I also do psychoatic body work. There's psycho drama and psycho dramatic body work. So psychodramatic body works a little bit more with an an intuitive piece to it. And so many times when people don't own a certain emotion, the people in the room pick it up. >> So a little bit the answer is in the second part of your question of and not the abuser because because the abuser sometimes doesn't carry the shame. The shame is someplace the victim is is is >> how does that work? Unconsciously it happens. >> Yeah, of course. Unconsciously. And then there's another part to it. That's just a little answer. Um why you feel shame? why they feel shame because really they should have no shame, right? They should have no shame. They did nothing, right? Well, there's a difference between the difference between secrecy and privacy is respect versus shame. Privacy is respectful. I respect your privacy. Secrecy is I am so ashamed I will hide. >> Right. >> What happens in abuse? So every human being has that innate need for privacy. Everybody knows it. It's not something it's it's innate. Right. It's like part of our human instinct is to have some sense of privacy. What happens when there is abuse happening? That sense of privacy is shattered. Right? And there is an overall hush hush piece to it. Nobody has to say anything, but it's like locking the door or don't tell your mom or don't tell whatever, right? So there is that hush hush of secrecy is already bringing on the shame, but also the violation of privacy will be shameful. >> Right? We have in our fabric of our humanood, we have a sense of shame in the same sense of fear that is healthy. There are certain things, social norms that if you break that in some kind of way, you will feel fear or shame, which is healthy. It keeps our society running, >> right? And so when there is sexual abuse, there is a knowing in the child that this is not something that's supposed to be. You invaded my privacy. I feel embarrassed. >> Exactly. So the shame uh do they have shame from the public from wherever they go they they walk around with shame they beat themselves up about shame or they have shame from the actual abuser >> from the abuser >> which might which means when they see him again at family events or gatherings or whatever the case is the shame must be tremendous >> again I didn't do a study on this but I would assume right from just from my experience experience of what I feel. There is that sense of shame. The first one you said >> there is the sense of shame that they walk around with. I'm going to tell you a little story. Um after we did a drama, the client told me afterwards, I walked outside and I just took a chair and I sat down next to my neighbors. Usually I would just stand or I would feel like I can't have that chair in some subconscious way. Right? They they didn't realize but after the drama they were able to see, oh wow, I'm doing this. I never did this before. >> Right? So there is like the sense of shame that sometimes they're aware of, sometimes they're not aware of. So there's really just this sense of shame in what they do, everything. And when they drink a cup of water, there's a sense of shame. And when they say hi to you, there's a sense of shame. When they're putting down their coat, there's a sense of shame. Everything, there's a sense of shame. They're taking your time, there's a sense of shame in everything. And so when they see their abuser, they might feel shame because their sense of shame was just triggered even more. Um, if they're embarrassed of the abuser, could be if they're blaming themselves more, you know, the blame. >> Should we go into the blame thing of why they blame themselves? >> Yeah. And also the invasion of privacy, you know. >> Yeah. >> It's that individual that invaded them. >> Yeah. The invasion of privacy hurts so much. I want to say it's beyond explanation, verbal explanation. I had a professor in Sarah Wsweiler um his name is Kanani Silverman and he said in the same way we could never understand birth can never understand what it means that there's another nama that was just created right in the same way we can never understand sexual abuse >> it's powerful stuff >> yeah we really can't we can't understand why it hurts >> you can't make logic out of it so >> can't understand it from both ends. >> That's true. >> It makes no sense. >> No, it doesn't make sense. The heart the the abuser doing that makes no sense and the mount hurts. >> As much as logic I try to put to it and I hear people trying to explain it and put it into words, it is literally impossible. >> Yeah. >> On both ends. >> Yeah. Like we love our children, right? the the biggest thing that we want for our children is for them to just have a happy life and be healthy in every kind of way. We're going to go out of our way so that they should have a better um social experience. Like how many times have you driven your daughter in the middle of the night when she came home because she wanted to stay another hour or whatever kind of thing, right? We do so much of that. Of course. >> And to think that you can do something to your own child or to your own sibling or to your own grandchild or whatever it is that will break them on such a level. It is incomprehensible. And you know some something it should stay that way. >> Yeah. >> Like like sometimes I get this feeling of like it's it's so uh infuriating. >> Yeah. >> Right. And then I'm like but this happens all the time. Right. It keeps on happening. Just because another person gets healed and another person gets healed doesn't mean that nobody else is walking into my door tomorrow, right? It's always so and then I actually in my training I do dramas for myself and I had a little uh psycho drama with Hashem and when the person was in Hashem's role whatever what came out was you keep being upset that's your job keep being angry. So we should be angry about this stuff, >> right? We shouldn't understand. >> Exactly. >> Should never understand. >> It should never make sense to us. It should always be horrifying. It is horrifying. >> H >> I do feel a little bit we're going a little extreme and and what I'm concerned about is that if there's any kind of perpetrator listening to this, um I do there are people who understand perpetrators and could and create healing for perpetrators. And I do believe that there is healing for perpetrators out there 100%. I believe that it could happen. I believe in the >> ability of the human being. And but I think that when the perpetrator gets to the space of the horror of what they did, right, with their understanding, they should have understanding towards themselves. They should >> and they get the horror and they get the understanding, then that's where the healing could happen. Right. >> They need to want to change. >> Yeah. >> They need to have introspect first. >> Yes. And they they need to want to change so badly that the horror that we have for it should not be in their way of their healing. >> Now, as far as men versus women, boys versus girls, do you see a difference? uh who is more uh being affected by this. >> Yeah, I do think girls have more inset stories than boys. >> I think boys um I think our generation has moved >> in that area. I think that um what used to happen in the in the yeshiva system or in the at some level went down. I'm not saying it's u um uh >> You mean um you're talking about molestation and stuff like that because of the awareness. I think for the last couple of years there was a tremendous awareness going on. >> Yes. >> And and schools, you know, stepped up to the game. I mean, the leadership is is >> they're not so much in denial anymore. They like to control it themselves. >> Mhm. >> But um at least the awareness was tremendous. >> Yeah. But I I would like to say that but I don't know how accurate I am because I do work more with women than with men. >> Um but I do think that there's some kind of shift in that. But I also think the biggest difference with what you're asking is I think that there well first of all there is enough incest that's happening to boys. >> Okay. >> Right. >> But I do think that when it comes to if you want to see what it's what's more I think girls do experience more incest and boys do experience more from outside. I think our our girls in our communities don't go out so much of you, right? They stay in school, they stay at home, they don't go out so much. So, you're going to have that thing more. >> Now, who are these abusers? Are these mostly men or there are women abusers as well? >> Yeah. Well, if you're going to do a study on a ratio, you're probably going to have more men than women, right? >> But there are women abusers more than we think. >> Wow. more than we think. >> And they would abuse uh boys or girls, >> both. >> Unbelievable stuff. >> Very painful because you want to think of a woman as a nurturer. >> Correct. >> And I think that that's why what I do find is many times when women are abusers, it becomes psychopathic a little. >> Yeah. You must have a touch of that >> even at least in the moment of the abuse. Again, my experience is from working with survivors. So in the healing of their survivor, I can feel that there's a touch of like craziness >> um because they have to override that nurturance in order to be that abuser. And so it becomes sadistic, >> becomes violent or horrible. >> And these abusers, men or women, >> are pretty much successful in the rest part of their lives. Let's say a mother, >> no. Um she she wouldn't run a house efficiently. >> Oh yeah, she would. That's Yeah. If you consider that success. >> No, no. I'm just saying let's say if she has a job. Yeah. >> And she runs a house and she gets everybody dressed and she makes a >> and she does everything by the book. >> Yeah. You will people around her will see that there's craziness many times. >> I got you. I have so many times, too many times that when survivors come out and they tell their families or their neighbors, friends, somebody, nobody's surprised. >> It's so painful because it's so painful for the survivor because if you knew where were you? >> Yeah. >> Right. You know those people that you're you meet in the grocery and then you're like, I don't know how their husband lives with them or I don't know how their wife lives with them. >> Well, that's a good question. Yeah. >> You know when you see it. So when the opportunity for support presents, please take it. >> Yeah. >> It's very hard to come into a family where you're seeing that there's something crazy going on and disturb it on a level that you'll make it safe. It's a very hard thing and we don't even know if you can make it safe. Even with so many times there was CPS involved and first of all CPS sometimes doesn't do a good a good job. They have to have their stuff, right? And if you can't prove it and whatever, CPS doesn't always do a good job. And >> it puts a lot of stress on the children. It puts a lot of stress on the I mean, you know, someone has to take care of these things. If it's an emergency, >> the house is chaotic. Someone has to step in, but um it's it's the havoc that this thing is is is uh presenting for our family, >> right? >> Beyond words. >> Yes. So, I'm not saying that, you know, to change and to create a whole craziness in the family, that's one thing. Maybe there are people that that could do that. But I'm talking about if you see somebody in the grocery and your thought is like, "Oh my gosh, how do how do their families lives with them?" Right? And then you're outside and it's your neighbor and you're seeing the little girl, give her a good word. Let her know, let her see in the world that there are norm normal people around. Smile at her. Um, just you don't have to be too much, but if she talks to you, if she asks you, if she shows you so many times these these kids are so hungry, they're going to ask you, "Look, I have a little keychain." Engage in the conversation with a keychain. Do something like if you're seeing and opportunity presents, be that person. It goes so far away. I've had people in my psychodrama groups who have, we always choose a strength and their strength was a nanny. Their like somebody who saw she realized something. their strength was a teacher in third grade who they didn't have any kind of um relationship afterwards. But if you're a good person and you let your goodness be, it comes in. It strengthens that little kid, if you're just around that person. >> It's an important awareness what you're saying now. >> Now, as far as the psyche, we know what it does to the psyche, >> right? >> But what does this abuse do for body body image? For body image, that's one question. And just for the physical health is another question. >> You find that it affects physically. >> Of course, >> you become because it's all the mind, the body, the soul, it's all connected. >> It's all connected. Yeah. When you're thinking of healing, >> what what what did you see as far as physically when you see somebody break down physically? >> Well, Crohn's I see a lot. Um there's other uh neurob biological disorders like um RPS like there's a nervous system kind of pain but >> but it's definitely something that is uh affecting the physical body. >> Yes. And then there's the autoimmune disorders like uh lime symptoms get more um um what is all these mano kind of stories and all these like diseases that are diseases but we don't really know how to cure it. these kind of >> when you see something when you deal with a client a survivor for you it's going to be like of course you're sick of course you feel this >> first of all trauma uh stores itself in the cells of the body >> so until you don't do the work on a body level then it will not heal. Now doing work on a body level doesn't only mean body work. Body work is a great thing, but it doesn't only mean body work, but it means that the kind of work you do should go to a body level. There are therapists that are very safe. And when you talk to them, you can feel what you're saying on a body level. Even if they're just doing talk therapy, if they're very safe and your brain and nervous system is really in a calm state when you're talking, it will be on a body level. and then maybe you're reaching the body and you don't have to do any body work. >> Now, um lately has been lately I mean people talk a lot about betrayal trauma, >> right? >> There's regular trauma and then there's betrayal trauma which affects also a person very much. >> Now in this case there's a lot of betrayal trauma >> 100%. The whole thing is betrayal >> because your mo the your parents or your loved ones were supposed to protect you. >> Yeah. The idea is and also you're getting that in school all the time. How much do we hear about kib? How much do we how much parties do we do mother daughter day or father son day or that idea? How much do we have that in our schools? And it's also humanly >> right >> like it makes sense that there should be a respect from the children to the parents and that parents are everything in your life and yes for sure it makes sense right and so and then when that idea violates and hurts and dehumanizes you like that >> in every aspect it is betrayal. >> Betrayal. And this is what they have to deal with. This is the the what they have to heal. >> Yes. >> Is the betrayal part >> 100%. I want to say even regular sexual abuse there's that betrayal if the parents don't respond with um with empathy and believe. Believe is such a strong strong thing. >> Validation >> validation. Validation if there is and I want to say validation is not a thing that you give. Okay. Validation is an experience. >> You sit with validation. >> Yes. It's an experience. I'll tell you, uh, Ray of Hope is an amazing organization for sexual abuse survivors. >> Mhm. >> And, um, I find that the most validating thing that they do is to exist. >> The support groups are extremely uh, helpful and healing and validating. Their Shabatones are extremely amazing, right? But when you flip through a mishbah or ami or whatever it is and there is that advertisement of ray of hope or you see some fancy picture anywhere on social media or anything right and you see that there is an a Jewish organization orthodox a religious organ organization that believes that this trauma deserves validation and support and deserves to be spoken about and speak out a survivor who hasn't told anybody. flips through the pages >> and finds comfort in it. >> Yeah. Stops for a moment and experience validation. And every time they make an event, I have people who reach out. Their Oh my god. Their their their uh fundraising. Their fundraising was like an intensive for the whole community. Intensive is like a sometimes a 12-h hour day. We call intensive or a therapy or a six six day. So yes, every time they do something, I have people who reach out. >> As far as this abuse goes, now it could become physical, it could become just a touch. I'm not sure exactly what kind of um abuse um you know, to name it. But what kind of lies do does a survivor tell themselves? It was nothing. It was just this, it was just that. Or what kind of lies do they the abusers tell them? Let's take a quick pause. Here on the Struggle Podcast, we always talk about struggles, pains, suffering. Everyone can use a break. What is a better way to rejuvenate and to relax, is to get away to the mansion at the Poconos. This is a mansion that sits on 37 acres. It hosts 60 guests. It has kosher food. It is good for shva brookas. It is good for bait mitzvah. It is good for family gatherings. And it has everything and anything you can imagine from pools to tennis courts to hot tubs. This could be lovely for you and for your family. Please call 845-5587280. So the biggest lie the most common one make the most common one I'm allowed to I'm your father I'm your grandfather I'm your mother I'm your >> because the kid naturally uh knows that something is you don't have to be taught in school every child knows there's a certain privacy that this is not okay >> yeah innately humanly >> yeah you know that so the first thing is I'm allowed because I'm your father whatever the case is >> yeah or very many times No excuses given. It's they're just making it happen. Sometimes the grooming sometimes the grooming is full-fledged grooming. Giving candies and giving even um um money or gifts or Yeah. Sometimes the grooming is full-fledged. Okay. Sometimes the grooming is just like getting the the child into a certain uh location or something and then there's just like one step like the physical grooming of just like positioning. you're gonna sit here, you're gonna do this something and it just happens and there's like an unspoken unspoken agreement that you just let me do this and and it's like a the power of it because let's say the abuser is more powerful in any kind of way either because of age or because of the child needs them in some kind of way whatever kind of thing they have over the child. And it just happens some so many times they don't have to give no excuses. Now um after all this you what you're doing is your specialty is psycho drama >> right? >> Right. >> So I would love to dive into the psychodrama understand what that is. So first explain as much as you can for people what is psychodrama? It sounds like >> drama. What is going on? Well, here comes the fun part and I'm happy to get to that especially after we spoke, you know, when I want to be careful about when we talk about incest. It is such deep hurt and such deep um psychological dam damage and and and so much pain. But I want to say that healing is possible. It is possible. And in my groups, we can laugh, we can dance. There's sometimes I do a lot of uh m music >> in the groups like well usually it's for like healing like a song after the drama but we dance and laughing for sure many times dancing sometimes but um >> what I'm hearing is that you're dealing with a very dark situation >> very dark place these people are coming in from >> such pain such such agony >> and what you're doing is is we're not going to uh dive into this agony and sit over there and and and wallow in that misery. We are going to take a psycho drama, whatever you're going to explain, and you're going to make it >> uh you're going to give them light. You're going to shine some light on this um situation. >> Yes. I just want to uh reay what you said in a in a little bit more nuanced way. Okay. >> The people I don't get dark people and I don't get >> Oh, it's dark stories. >> Yes. They bring the dark parts of themselves to my into my room. Okay. The dark parts of themselves >> and they bravely allow themselves to look at that part >> and they bravely even more bravely allow themselves to feel that dark and painful painful painful part. And that's not all of them. They are happy, successful, sometimes very successful um funny interesting. It's almost refreshing to see people who go through hell and back to say to themselves, I have one part that needs healing, but guess what? I'm going to be there for my kids. I'm going to move on. They still have a beautiful vision of how their life wants to be. It's uplifting and refreshing to see. >> Yes. Very, very uplifting. It's extremely inspiring. It's extremely inspiring to work with incest survivors and to see that dynamic of being able to hold so much pain or such painful parts of themselves and such dark parts of themselves and live a life of joy. >> Yeah. >> Live a life of choosing life over and over again. And um I want to say this is not only for incest survivors. this idea people bring to therapy in general um their dark parts their or their painful parts I I don't like to call it dark but it's more like their painful parts and they are courageous enough to put it out to he because they want to heal healing is not a must for everyone okay sometimes people are in a state where they're in crisis and and and they want to have a life and so healing is a must but for many people healing is a choice they could already they already have enough regulation on board that they could just live their life. They're not screeching at their kids. They're not doing anything that's abusive in a way that's that's horrible. Nobody's sending them to therapy. >> And the bottling up emotions. >> Well, some when the emotions is in a stage that is very bottled up, then it'll come out sideways. You're going to be dysfunctional in a way that you're going to land in a in a therapy room. But very many people have done enough work that they're not at that stage, >> but they still choose healing because they want to take that part of themselves, they love themselves enough or they love their children enough that they want to take that hurting part that is some way going to come out sideways still, spill it in a therapy room, heal it, and then you go home and you're just that much better. >> So, it's a choice. >> Right. >> Right. And I want to say even to the people who their trauma is bottled up and is creating havoc in their home, >> right? >> We all know generations who didn't choose healing. People were dysfunctional and they were dysfunctional. The kids were hurt and that's how it goes. People today today's day still have that choice. If you don't want to do healing and you want and you're just going to be hurting people, >> some people are probably still living that way. >> Sure. >> And if you choose that, you choose that. >> Every day people live like this. >> Exactly. Every day people still live that that way. And so even in your dysfunctional life and you feel like you don't have a choice, you are making a choice to heal when you decide to heal. >> Right now this psycho drama that you are uh teaching and and practicing >> um does that help for any other abuse or any other problems as well? >> Of course. I don't only run a psycho drama group for incest survivors. I also run a group for just personal growth. >> Wow. and um psychodrama. >> That must be fun. >> That is fun. >> So, let's jump into psycho drama. What is it? Introduce this to the world. >> So, psycho drama. Okay. So, in psychodrama, the first thing is that they say um so first of all, the founder of it is JL Mareno. He was in Freud's times. It's a really old method that has developed over the years. He was Jewish. His name was um he was a Sparty Jew. He his name was Jacob Mareno Ley. Ley was the last name and he uh didn't want to sound so Jewish. >> So he switched around the Ley and the Mareno. So we know him as JL Mareno. >> Okay. >> Okay. So he is the father of psycho drama. There's a lot of stuff um that you can find about him like there's autobiographies, there are original books that he wrote. Um you can even see a little YouTube things of how he does a psycho drama. We do psycho drama a little differently today's day. But um so in psychodrama there's the thing show don't tell. The idea about it is that in the same way as trauma happens or everything in the world happens with all of your senses. You should experience the healing or the growth that you want with all of your senses. >> I see. >> Okay. So I'm gonna ask you if I can show and not tell. >> Yeah. >> Now the question is like this. Um >> I would assume that psycho drama is um is um talking also. No. When let's say like you said before was was fascinating to me. You bring in Hashem into this drama sometimes because some people you know when they lose their they lose their and then why did you why did you let this happen? And Hashem answers. It's like a back and forth. That was an amazing drama >> but there is some talking going on right >> yes there is talking going on definitely sometimes there is going to be if there is no ability to talk if right if the client feels like I don't know what to say or something so then I will ask them show >> right there definitely is a talking piece to it but you don't have to >> right >> and the idea is that >> I do think it's more healing if you can put words to it >> to it many times because like this is access is all parts of your brain. >> Many times you're first going to do let's say the not talking and if you slow it down enough the words will come. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Um yeah. So let me sh >> All right. So I'm going to ask you if you could think of someone who is supportive to you in your life. >> Mhm. >> You can think of someone are or how about you think of someone who you are comfortable disclosing here. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, could you tell me their first name? >> Goldie. >> So, Goldie. All right, Goldie. So, we are going to invite you into this podcast room. Thank you for coming here. So, I'm going to ask you to turn your chair just slightly around. So, now you become you move from Joe and you become Goldie. >> Goldie. >> Okay. So, Goldie, how tall are you? >> 56. >> 56. Okay, Goldie. So I want you to look down at your feet and see Goldie shoes so you can embody Goldie in some kind of way. Right. >> Okay. So feel like Goldie a little. Okay. So Goldie, what do you like? What do you like doing? Do you like socializing? Do you like music? Do you like what do you like doing? >> I like um I like um Yeah, socializing. And I love my family. >> And you love your family. Okay. All right. Are you okay telling me what Joe is to you? >> Joe is my role model. >> Joe is your role model? >> Okay. >> Joe is my father. >> He's your father. >> And I love him. I love him very much. >> Okay. And I what I'm hearing is that you really look up to him. >> Yes. >> Yes. Okay. Goldie. So I'm going to ask you to turn your chair even more that way. Okay. and we brought you in here so you can tell right now. You probably told this to your father, but I want to give you an opportunity. Could you tell your father right now how much he means to you? Could you tell him like how do you call him Tati? >> Yes. >> Okay. So, imagine he's right here. Could you talk to him? Tell him. >> Yes. So, Tati, you have no idea how much you mean to me. I love you. I you're always here for me and whenever I need something, you give me the best advice and I have the best support in the world and I can't thank Asham enough to have you in my life. >> Thank you. Thank you, Goldie. And now I'm going to ask you, Joe, to reverse back to becoming Joe. >> Okay. >> Okay. There you go. So, Joe, take a moment and take a breath and hear everything that Goldie said to you. Okay. Is there something you want to say to Goldie now? >> That I feel blessed to have her in my life. >> So, how about you say it straight to her? Talk to her, Goldie. >> Yeah. Goldie, I feel that I am blessed to have you in my life. You are nothing but nas to me. I can't get enough of you and I will love you forever, forever and ever. >> Thank you. Yeah, that's that's >> so that's a glimpse of of what that is. >> Yes. Could I and I'll tell you what happens afterwards to show you how it affects everyone in the group. Right. What we do is after a full psych drama or after a small vignette like what we did now. We say what came up for me. Right? So I'm going to tell you what came up for me watching you do your work. um is just how beautiful and how pure your relationship is and it just brings up the idea how how strong the bond of family could be and should be and is. >> It is it is it is beautiful and uh I am blessed with that. Um but let me just get back into where I am. >> Yes, we could we could wait. >> This was a positive one. how how is a negative psycho drama look? >> So I want to tell you how it looks and because we did it positive. So the kind of uh psycho drama that I do and the kind of training that I have for psychodrama is called trauma-informed psychodrama and trauma informed is basically with a strong lens that when the client when the protagonist does their drama they should always stay in the window of tolerance. So in order to keep the client in their window of tolerance we do it strength-based. So before every drama I bring in three strengths. So if your daughter would do a drama or if you would do a drama we bring in the daughter for you. It could also be children, could be strengths in the drama, right? And definitely you would probably be a strength for your daughter probably. And um how this would look like, right? So if you are the strength and she brings you in and she has this conversation, if her intention was to heal whatever trauma she has, let's say this is not an incest group, right? And she would say to you probably, "Tatia, I want to tell you something after you heard all that positive. I want to tell you how this and this and this and this hurt. It would just come straight up. I wouldn't have to bring in no hurt. I would bring in just the father and everything, all the healing would go on here. >> Yeah. I have that so many times. Hashem in the drama is very many times that. >> Yeah. So explain me how you bring in Hashem and how do we talk to Hashem? Because spirituality is a big part of of especially in a community that is you know that we believe we have a min we have and we were brought up like this. >> Yeah. And so this is going to bring us a little bit could we go back to the incest part a little bit of the um >> when somebody gets traumatized in a religious community many times especially if there was um spirituality in the system of the of the person how strong it was right and usually there is >> I think innately we are spiritual I think that humans are just spiritual beings just by being born right um the wounding will be spiritual as well. >> Correct. Which means that they will lose their um their complete, you know, connection. >> I don't know if they will lose it. They would probably be very angry and maybe have some apathy to it because they're so angry. >> Right. >> I do want to say this is my own thing, okay? >> It's my own uh study. My incest groups are always less somehow just the reality of things, just what I see. There's going to be less real show more stuff, less religion in the incest groups than in the regular groups. >> Mhm. >> Um, but I want to underline that sexual abuse does not equal going off the d, >> right? >> Okay. Does not equal going. It could. >> It could. >> It's a trigger. >> It's a trigger. It could, but many survivors, I want to say that many survivors stay from and it's harder because if you're living a from life, you're going to have more triggers within the from kite, within the within the shabas, within whatever kind of halas you're doing, right? But many survivors are from we have it in our neighborhoods, we have it in our shoes, right? >> We have it in our schools. >> Just so to make that clear, it's a trigger. Yes. Many times people who leave the communities because they couldn't stay anymore because it was just so triggering. >> Um but it doesn't have to be. Okay. So and the reason right many people will go into this a lot of reasoning of why people who have been sexually abused go off there right you can say a lot of wise and the the most common thing that I've heard many times is that they sit in the schools and you hear hear about SNES and they feel like an outsider and so they become an outsider. That's also true probably, but it's a superficial answer. I feel that it's very uh superficial. >> The real reason is deeper and that's where I'm getting to why it is so healing when I bring Hashem in any kind of trauma >> especially to incest. >> Um and I don't bring it in because I do like it's usually invited by the the client. I could ask sometimes, would you want to hear what Hashem has to say about it? I can I can do that >> if I feel that it's appropriate with a client. Sometimes I would never do that, right? It's just not where the client is. >> If you see where the Yeah. If the client is not there, >> right? But if the client is there and and usually the client has shared something like I can't dive in or when I d I feel so empty or something and so when they're doing their drama and you bring Hashem and it's profoundly healing >> because it's it's even for healthy people, it's you know it's so healing >> to be connected and to understand that there is a higher power and there is a we not owed anything. the tremendous great the gratitude that we have it's is just in all aspects of life for a person who's not going through uh tremendous trauma. >> Exactly. >> Needs spirituality in their lives. >> Yes. And I want to say that uh part of the trauma is I've heard this so many times. You stole my religion from me. >> Yeah. You stole my Hashem from me when you used Hashem in your words in in an abusive way >> because these are the people who were supposed to teach you Yiddish kite. >> Yes. >> This is >> and many times they were the people who taught you. >> Of course they say they're saying they're teaching these kids shay is and they're stabbing these kids in the back which is which is which is beyond words. >> Yeah. Let me ask you why do families, >> you know, and I understand the question is not why, the question is um how do we go about it that families protect the abusers and they would isolate the the survivors rather than standing up for the truth. Again, is it shame, community shame? Is it gen you know because you know it's a sh it is like we said before it's it's unescribable >> and but there's no again there's no >> there's no justice in in in protecting this. >> No there is no justice in protecting this and it's a it's a killing in and of itself. >> Correct. >> Um you know the abuse hurts >> the denial and minimizing it. >> Yeah. you're minimizing it. But on the other hand, even the survivor understands that we can't we we we we can't do this. We're living in a in a in a in a community. So for the family to come and support the victim or for a family to stand up and say this has to stop, it would ruffle every feather out there. >> Yeah. Well, the reason why it's covered up is very easy to understand. >> Yeah. >> Very easy. Just because you know you're living in a community and who needs this? >> Yeah. We don't want it. >> Shame on top of shame. >> Exactly. We don't want it. We don't want it to exist. We We don't want to know that it's here. >> When some people are in denial to the point they don't even they don't want they don't believe it because they don't want to believe it. >> I'll tell you one little story called teacher once told this is years ago to a client um to >> Yeah. >> Well, I understand that color teacher. does she doesn't want to um believe that somebody would do something so horrible. But do you know what damage that does? >> Just complete denial. Complete the opposite of validation. >> Yeah. And and and this is just a small little story that I can tell you about. >> There are statements like that flying around like like like every day. >> Yeah. Well, the toeners that's true and so how come the person who sat with Gumuras did that >> right unbelievable what's must happen for a survivor uh to break the silence >> I work with the survivors and I believe that healing every survivor heals and heals and heal and I feel that one of the most powerful ways to prevent this cycle of abuse to go on >> is The healing every individual that heals their family becomes healed their friends. >> So important. >> Yeah. >> They have a responsibility to heal themselves for the sake of generations for making the world a better place. >> Yeah. If they choose that responsibility. >> They choose that responsibility >> and many do. >> Unbelievable stuff. And sometimes they come out in public. Do you feel that? I would like to understand what is the reason that sometimes they come out and they share it. Is it therapeutic? >> Very I'll tell you. >> Come out and and and help other people. Is that what it is? >> Therapeutic piece is to come out and especially for this specific trauma because and we hear it so much. They speak out. They speak out. Why do we use the word so much? They speak out. Right? >> In other traumas, we don't hear that so much. She spoke out that she went through A, B, and C. Right? You don't hear it in this in sexual abuse and in incest. You hear it so much they speak out. Right? Why? Because the nature of this trauma is silence. And so until every survivor doesn't speak out, it feels like you haven't spoken out enough for someone there, right? And so speaking out doesn't have to specifically be publicly even though doing that makes another thousand survivors speak out. So you just created healing on such a big level and it allows permission. So many times I have heard this from clients that their first road to healing was listening to JCW's videos. Remember JCW? They're not around anymore. >> Crown Heights. Yeah. >> Yeah. But they watched it and they watched it and they watched it over and over and every time they went into a trigger mode or a flashback mode, that's what they would do. Watch JCW videos. What is that? Right. Or or what's the TV show? Um SVU, >> right? What is that? Just hearing other survivors speaking out >> allows the part in them that wants to speak out. First of all, you do it like vicariously a little bit, >> but um >> gives them permission. And so sometimes people will then speak out to their spouse, speak out to a sister that they trust, speak out to a neighbor or a friend that they trust. >> The pe the person who's speaking out publicly will never know it, but they created another thousands of people to to speak out. And there is that step in healing that is to say and I want to say that it's one of the biggest step in healing. One of the biggest step is to take that first step and speak out. So if you are a survivor hearing this, speak out to anyone who you feel safe with. Take a breath and tune in to yourself and find someone who you feel safe with and speak out to them today. If there is one survivor that's going to do this today, this podcast has already done its thing. >> 100%. 100%. Let me ask you, can a survivor ever be completely healed or that survivor becomes a new person? Now they live with this for the rest of their lives. They just have a compartment where they can put it in and they live with this. >> Again, you said will they question is what are you considered healed? >> Yeah. Right. Um I think that only the survivor could be the measure of that >> if they feel that they are always holding that pain. I think most of them um describes it that way. I think most people feel that way that um the survivor will heal >> because what's happening is that um there's comfort in it that if you tell somebody this happened to you, this was in your past. You're just not that person anymore. Today you would stand up for yourself and you know who you are. But just to know that it's going to be there. It's always going to be there. It's a it's a it's a fact and it's true and it's is that part of healing? >> Yeah. There seems to be a part of the memory that always feels that you need to remember me. You need to remember that this happened. Don't make as if it didn't happen. Like the denial piece is so painful. Like don't even say that you healed to the point that it doesn't matter anymore. It matters. But I am healed and I live a fully productive, happy, joyful life. Um there seems to be in every trauma, not only in incest trauma, in every trauma, a piece that needs the part needs the self to remember that this wound is here and it always hurts. >> It doesn't have to incapacitate me in any kind of way. In any in most of the cases, it informs it actually beautifies and makes your life so much more meaningful. There's something called my my uh trainer um is very into this post-traumatic growth. the growth that happens from trauma, >> right? And so so many of our organizations, so many things of the good things that we have in life in general comes from trauma. So the trauma becomes the stepping stone. And it doesn't have to, okay? It doesn't have to. If if if you're in a place where your trauma is just breaking you right now, then then that's okay. And you don't and you you deserve healing in any kind of way. You deserve healing. This is bringing me into this thing of couples the deserving healing because so many times uh women think that they only their reason for coming into therapy to healing their sexual abuse or incest is because um I can't be intimate with my husband >> right >> and that kind of thing and and it's always like all right we can talk about the fear of not being intimate with your husband but if you want to heal you deserve healing regardless of what's happening in your relationship most of the times when they do healing because they deserve healing everything in the couple ship becomes Yes. Very quickly. Very quickly. I've had clients who went for whatever kind of therapy um because of the relationship. My husband can't can't handle this or or he it's not fair to him or all this. And as long as you're in that spiral of it's not fair to him rather than this is my experience and this is his experience and we can be in this experience together, it's not going to be healing. >> Right. But you find that a lot there's a lot of intimacy problems because they're coming from a very bad place >> and and here you have young people or even middle-aged people that um that this is something that you know it's along those lines. This is body issues and and psychological issues and do you deal with that? >> Yes. And I have very much to say about this. We can do a podcast only on that >> on this on this particular subject. >> Yeah. I was thinking of doing a podcast of uh uh couples in recovery and how they and couples in recovery I don't mean only 12step recovery I mean like couples in recovery as couples in therapy and to see how they manage um their both of their healings and both of their feelings within the coupleship within the marriage >> but a lot of times in this case there's only one person who has the problem correct >> and that one person who has the problem well okay we're going to go on that soap box for a minute Um, sex is a relationship. Okay? So, when you get married, when you're in a couple ship, your your sex life is in the pretense of a in the in the space of a relationship. And so, anything that's sexual is going to affect both parts. >> Correct? >> Okay. Now, there is that piece of it's trauma and you can go and heal your trauma. Okay. In the same way that you can understand when you're at a a point of wanting to bring the couple ship together when there's an addiction, >> right? >> Right. >> Then you go and heal your addiction kind of idea, there is a space for that. Okay. But to say that only that and I'll sit here and wait until you heal your trauma or I'll sit here and wait until you heal the addiction just doesn't happen. It's not possible. Okay? You cannot heal a relationship in the context of one of one place. Now what I mean by that is that there needs to be safety in the relationship that you bring back your healing. You share your process, right? And the other part of the coupleship of whatever let's say you bring let's say a woman is healing from from sexual abuse, right? And they go to their therapist and they're healing and they're doing their thing. If they're going to if they're going to do it in isolation and not bring their process, meaning not sharing their process in their coupleship, the couple ship will not be affected by it. >> Correct? >> Right. If there isn't enough safety in the marriage to at least have a conversation about what's going on, right? >> Then it will not heal and then the relationship will not heal. And the opposite way is also true. If you bring back the process that you had, you share your process, magic happens, right? Especially if you have the space to hear how it affects the other side of it, how it affects the the husband. Like really have space to hear, wow, what's coming up for me when you say this and his own be selfish. Right. Right. >> And have space for have space for both ends of the couple. >> It like I don't have to give no skills, nothing. If they just have the safety to share and they could know that they don't have to fix anything. They can just listen to each other. Then relationships >> merge together. I can't even tell you how many times I worked only with one part of the couple ship and if they knew this to always bring it back to share to be open then >> things would have been way easier >> and and it works. It works. >> Now the only thing is that the other person >> the partner >> needs to have empathy and and and feel and understand the other person. First of all, I want to say just there is a lot of nice marriages. Maybe I'm lucky. >> No, because we keep on beating up and we're bringing in a lot of, you know, we talk about the struggles and we talk about all these things. Tell us a little bit that there are some people over there being happy and living lives and enjoying the their the days and enjoying their kids and there's some positivity in here. >> Yes. Yes. So, I want to say there is very nice marriages out there. Okay. We are doing I think as a community I mean I'm young. I just turned 40. >> We're doing great is what you're saying. >> Yes. Especially in the in when I see like um from 19 till 25 and they already had therapy before and the conversations that they're able to have the vulnerability that's able to come. It's it's amazing. And even if we're going from from 20 to 40 or 20 to 50 that the therapy is really happening and people could the connections that we have today's day is just awesome and it affects families and it affects everything. when I have the people who are not in good marriages I don't know if I could say there's 10 years of a difference of how quick therapy will be healing and how mean quick well therapy doesn't have to be quick okay but meaning say >> the relief right there's that initial relief when you come to therapy in your home in your marriage with your kids and everything it will happen so much quicker when there's a safe and it doesn't have to be like a skillfilled marriage marriage just just a a love for each other or a respect for each other or allowing space for each other. >> The healing happens so so quicker. I'm such a big believer in let your marriage be a source of healing for you. >> Wow. >> Yeah. It's important. >> Yeah. And it's codependent or whatever >> and also there's there's no secrets. There's nothing uh wrong in sharing >> uh and opening up. >> It's very powerful. >> It's very powerful. Actually, it's damaging when you don't do that. >> Correct. >> Even if even in cases where the marriage could sometimes be hurtful. Okay. There's sometimes let's say one part still needs to do some uh therapy in a space of learning to co to to regulate themselves and sometimes they can come out in ways of hurtful and we all hurt each other at one point, right? We're human. The the the amazing thing is that we can repair. But even in marriages where there is um hurtful points but if you can see that there are safe enough safe enough points and you can allow for healing to happen in those moments it is so beautiful >> 100% the companionship and the the brush designed the world this way. >> Yes. And as a therapist I see it amazingly and I'm not a couple's therapist. I see individuals but if they go home to a safe space it's a different level. >> The healing is is on a different level. Let's talk about forgiving. >> Okay. >> It's a tremendous word forgiving especially in what you're doing. Um is there such a thing as forgiving? Is part of the psycho drama um forgiving? Um they say forgiving is for you not for the other. But >> I think it brings us to the question is forgiving necessary to heal. >> Mhm. Is it? >> I think that would be up to the client for certain people probably yes. >> I want to forgive um and whatever forgiveness means to them. Does forgiveness mean a certain type of understanding? Does forgiveness mean I can love you with this whatever happened? Uh, thus forgiveness, whatever forgiveness means, um, I don't know if forgiveness is necessary for healing. I have no idea. >> What you're saying is that if a person needs it, then let them implement it. >> Yeah. >> If it sits well with you >> and if not, you move on with with the peace that you have in you and and you still uh >> sometimes for certain people, the healing at that point at least is I will never forgive this. Yeah, I've heard that. >> Mhm. And so if that works for them, I mean, who am I to say how anybody should heal? >> Correct. >> Right. >> So if that works for them, then and if people need forgiveness and reconciliation and and connection again, it definitely sounds prettier. >> Right. Right. >> I have a hard question for you. >> Yeah. >> How do you turn pain into purpose in your cases? severe cases person sometimes goes through a very hard time and gives meaning to it turns it into a purpose and that also helps a person heal most of the time. >> Mhm. It's part of the the principles of traum of uh post-traumatic growth they find purpose is find purpose and meaning. >> Yeah. >> How do you find purpose and meaning is something what's going on in your office? Hm. Well, post-traumatic growth is either the trauma itself, the pain itself bought you to >> understand something or or be a better person because >> the of the of the trauma >> or another part of post-traumatic growth is that from the healing from doing the healing you grow. So I think that there's meaning and purpose all over in in any kind of healing, especially also in incest. You become a better family person when you heal. That's purpose. Every day you smile to your kids in a more connected way. There's a question, okay, if the hurt happens more in the sexual life, correct? Or in the intimacy, in the emotional intimacy, >> we can have that conversation. That's a legitimate um um question. doesn't have to be that it only goes sexually. For sure not. That's for sure not the answer. Um so in the healing, right, intimacy happens with your children, with your neighbor, with your husband, with anyone. >> And so there's so much purpose and meaning in that. >> What I'm hearing from you is that um whatever you went through, whatever trauma, call it whatever you want. >> Mhm. >> If you went and you got healing, you just became a new person. You became something fresh, something new. A new light just opened up. >> A new light. That's I'm no new person because I think you carry all parts of you, but a new light. >> A new light just opened up. Yeah. >> And that alone, >> you would never get to this place. >> Exactly. >> With with whatever was without the trauma, which is bad. >> We're not denying the fact. We're validating the fact that this was not okay. But you would not be the same person you are today without this. Yeah. >> And if you're take if you are taking this as a stepping stone to move forward and to help other people and to become a better mom, to become a better wife, to become a better father, to become a better brother, to become a better to add some value to this world, >> purpose right there. >> Yes. I think that uh any kind of healing will be full of purpose. But I think that um any kind of outsider cannot say another person, oh well, but you found your purpose. Look at that. you created this that >> that's for the that's for the person itself for the clientself to say >> right >> to own to find out everybody finds their own purpose in any kind of way and I'm I'm sure this is like a human thing >> it's it's like wherever even people who create I don't know gyms or something it'll have a painoint under it usually >> 100% what message do you have for families who are in denial >> and who are protecting who would say I would rather lose you as a child then expose this to the public? >> My first instinct to that is I don't talk to these families. I talk to the survivors. That's just my instinct >> because I just believe in healing. And if the survivor owns it and the survivor um heals, there is full-fledged healing to a beautiful life. But he did take me there. So, let me go there for a moment. >> Um what I would say to families. Well, there's a part of me that wants to say you're damaging. I want to give them that whole thing. Right. Right. But >> um what I do want to say is that most of family members who don't want to own this trauma, it makes sense that they don't want to own it. >> Correct? >> And most of the times, many times, let's say it's a grandfather, right, or a grandmother and and the child, the grandchild owns, one of the parents have gone through it the same. And so to own it for their child, they will need to own it for themselves. And so that's very painful. And so what I would say is it's it makes sense that this is painful and hard. And I would encourage you to find support to be able to do this cuz it's really important. Really important. I mean any kind of alienation hurts whichever way it hurts. And so to rather alienate a child than to own I can't believe that any parents who does this is not painful. I'm sure they're doing the victim narcissistic kind of victim kind of way of like how did she do that to me and she I mean in the in the there is that uh false child syndrome a false memory syndrome that was a whole group of parents who who put themselves together and they wrote a book or there was a whole movement it collapsed at I don't remember the date when it collapsed but that whole thing was that they're rather like my daughter did this to me I will never will never forgive them or whatever kind of they do that, right? But I I don't believe that it's not painful. So, I hope that you surround yourself with support and you find the courage within yourself to look inside and to >> heal together. >> Yeah. Well, first heal yourself. And when you're ready, when you're ready to create space as parents can create space for their children, then do that. And I believe that it happens. I believe that many parents I mean you know kishani right true that's all what it is about >> yeah connecting the parents with the children >> well the idea is that the parents they encourage the parents a lot to do their own therapy and when they do their own therapy they will have that when they will love themselves they will have the space to respect their children and to know that on whatever journey their child went on it was meant to be right so I believe that incest as well Right. >> Sure. >> There isn't a organization even though I think that many in Kesani I think Kishani does have maybe a division or something >> for incest parents. Yeah. For parents who had had some kind of incest in their family if it was siblings or whatever. >> I think they do have something around that. I'm not sure but I think so. And um when you do your own work you will create space to meet your child again. It >> was beautiful stuff. What you shared with us today is a message to survivors that what happened to you um is not who you are. Um your innocent your innocence was stolen. Uh you're not dirty. >> Yeah. >> You're not broken. >> No. And it's not your fault. >> And it's not your fault. And I want to thank you for shining light um on a struggle that most people um can't even name. >> Nobody wants to talk about this issue. Um, and you're here for the truth, for the emis. >> Yeah. >> And, um, it's refreshing. It's refreshing to hear. You're here to teach um, you're here to teach people, young people, the future of our generations to overcome such incredible pain. >> Yeah. And and that's more why I'm here. It's the truth. I'm here for the truth, but also to let know for everyone that healing is here and we can all heal. We have the ability to heal. We have the spaces to heal. I mean, I don't think we ever had the amount of healing available that we have now. >> Yeah. And your message is that there is light by the end of the tunnel. This this is not a death sentence. >> Yeah. And even in the tunnel, there's light, right? >> Even in the tunnel, >> you would be surprised how many times we're doing such a painful drama and something happens and we're all laughing and then you can go back to crying again. But even in the dark tunnel, there is light. There is light in every part of of healing. Beautiful. Thank you so much for coming. I appreciate it a lot. >> Okay. Thank you for having me.